Can we talk about the apparent culture of sexual abuse in the american film industry?

Johnny Novgorod

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Silentpony said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Darth Rosenberg said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Silentpony said:
Guarantee you if Miramax had a piece of the MCU or Star Wars or whatever not one person would have come out against him.
Sort of how nobody batted an eye when Joss Whedon was accused of the same sins Weinstein is purging right now.
Is your bias personal or political? Just curious...

No, to say they are the "same sins" is dangerously--- well, I'll be polite and say 'daft'. Care to quote sources - mountains of 'em - of sexual abuse, 'misdemeanors', bullying, and, oh yeah, rape against Whedon? One seems to have broken the law multiple times over decades - the other hasn't, as far as I've heard, broken a single law.

I've not looked at the Joss story for weeks, so I could've missed major revelations, but last I heard we had no first hand accounts from anyone but his wife. As unethical as Joss's actions sound/seem to have been, there's nothing against what could've easily been consensual workplace relationships.

Maybe if it really is more okay to speak out against abusive patriarchy we'll see some accusers of Joss's come forward, but until then, no, they're not remotely the "same sins" of Weinstein.
No bias. An employer has power over an employee, and a relationship or sexual liaison is inherently unequal. Even if it it's technically legal and consensual there may be an element of pressure, manipulation and coercion involved.
But at that point how does anyone anywhere has safe, consensual sex?
A good start is not to be the employer (or prospective employer) of the person you're having sex with.

Come to think of it, why can't Weinstein withdraw his consent?
 

Fox12

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erttheking said:
Fox12 said:
Oh joy, more people on both sides using this as ammunition for political debate. People never change.
A woman in my home town died in the Vegas shooting. And when I said this, someone else said something along the lines of "I'm very sorry, people need to keep politics out of this." And I really should have said this to them when it said it to me. No. People don't. Because otherwise, people do and say nothing to change the situation that caused this crap to happen in the first place. Thoughts and prayers should be with the victims, of course, but if we have nothing but thoughts and prayers for the victims, we're going to need a lot of it for all the future victims.
I just don't believe, for a second, that anyone actually gives a fuck for the victims. People who defended roman polanski for years were suddenly critical of Trumps Misogyny? Give me a break. They saw a point of weakness, and they struck.

The only reason people are coming down on Weinstein now is because he's suddenly more valuable as a pariah then as an asset. If he was still making people money then this wouldn't be an issue. People don't care about victims, they care about an agenda. The sexual assault of weinstein and cosby have been a matter of public record for decades.
 

Naldan

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stroopwafel said:
Naldan said:
Purge them. Purge them all.
Like your country did with the Jews?
That's really the first thing that comes to your mind? Hueheuehehe. I meant imprisoning them, purging them from the landscape of their respective industries.

No, 'abuse' doesn't get the attention it deserves it gets spinned by radical ideologues and hypocritical double standards to make a political statement. Thank you for proving my point.
So therefore, for someone like you it also is a political statement when you imprison someone for life, thus preventing them from doing their craft? lol :^)

Whatever you need to spin, man. All those people abusing and selling other people (like, for example parents also do to their children, as in shelling out sexual favors in order to further the career of their offspring) may rot in a hole for decades upon decades. You want to defend this, fine. It's your character trait of further some agenda or please an urge of getting a kick out of provoking someone on the internet that definitely is the most despiteworthy .
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Johnny Novgorod said:
No bias. An employer has power over an employee, and a relationship or sexual liaison is inherently unequal. Even if it it's technically legal and consensual there may be an element of pressure, manipulation and coercion involved.
So no attempt to defend the profoundly erroneous "same sins" remark, then?

Not sure on what planet being a sex pest and - potentially - a multiple rapist is the "same" sin as infidelity and workplace relationships.

What Joss seems to have done was unethical (and hypocritical), but that's really not the same thing.
 

Erttheking

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Fox12 said:
erttheking said:
Fox12 said:
Oh joy, more people on both sides using this as ammunition for political debate. People never change.
A woman in my home town died in the Vegas shooting. And when I said this, someone else said something along the lines of "I'm very sorry, people need to keep politics out of this." And I really should have said this to them when it said it to me. No. People don't. Because otherwise, people do and say nothing to change the situation that caused this crap to happen in the first place. Thoughts and prayers should be with the victims, of course, but if we have nothing but thoughts and prayers for the victims, we're going to need a lot of it for all the future victims.
I just don't believe, for a second, that anyone actually gives a fuck for the victims. People who defended roman polanski for years were suddenly critical of Trumps Misogyny? Give me a break. They saw a point of weakness, and they struck.

The only reason people are coming down on Weinstein now is because he's suddenly more valuable as a pariah then as an asset. If he was still making people money then this wouldn't be an issue. People don't care about victims, they care about an agenda. The sexual assault of weinstein and cosby have been a matter of public record for decades.
I do. Plenty of people do. Many of us simply never heard of these issues because they were being kept hushed up. If they were out there and no one was talking about them, well, this is why I consider rape culture to be an issue.
 

shrekfan246

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erttheking said:
EDIT: Well, it didn't take long for this thread to be infested with victim blaming and "this is a big and serious problem but it can't be called a term I don't like that implies a big and serious problem I don't like."

Next time someone says rape culture isn't a thing, I'm showing them this thread.
Every thread about women being sexually harassed inevitably proves why women being sexually harassed is still a problem.

Guys who are completely unaffected get angry because thinking about it makes them uncomfortable. And hey, they should be uncomfortable, because sexual harassment is an uncomfortable subject. But rather than getting mad at the people who sexually harass, they get mad at the women who are harassed, and at the people who want to talk about it and try to make it so that women are allowed to openly admit to being harassed without, well, receiving more harassment.

Johnny Novgorod said:
Just for the record, I myself and many people I interact with have all very vehemently condemned Whedon since the allegations came out. 'Cause when you look into it, it's not really that unbelievable. It's unfortunate that there isn't any hard information, but frankly, that isn't really any of our business anyway. Sadly it does seem like it's just a vocal minority who are voicing any displeasure at him, but then, look at this thread. Is that really any surprise?
 

Fox12

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erttheking said:
Fox12 said:
erttheking said:
Fox12 said:
Oh joy, more people on both sides using this as ammunition for political debate. People never change.
A woman in my home town died in the Vegas shooting. And when I said this, someone else said something along the lines of "I'm very sorry, people need to keep politics out of this." And I really should have said this to them when it said it to me. No. People don't. Because otherwise, people do and say nothing to change the situation that caused this crap to happen in the first place. Thoughts and prayers should be with the victims, of course, but if we have nothing but thoughts and prayers for the victims, we're going to need a lot of it for all the future victims.
I just don't believe, for a second, that anyone actually gives a fuck for the victims. People who defended roman polanski for years were suddenly critical of Trumps Misogyny? Give me a break. They saw a point of weakness, and they struck.

The only reason people are coming down on Weinstein now is because he's suddenly more valuable as a pariah then as an asset. If he was still making people money then this wouldn't be an issue. People don't care about victims, they care about an agenda. The sexual assault of weinstein and cosby have been a matter of public record for decades.
I do. Plenty of people do. Many of us simply never heard of these issues because they were being kept hushed up. If they were out there and no one was talking about them, well, this is why I consider rape culture to be an issue.
Well, disagreements on other issues aside, at least we can agree on this. I've seen too many friends hurt by sexual assault. That's why it disappoints me to see people demonize one rapist and not another. The hypocrisy of some people on both sides kills me, because it shows who really cares, and who doesn't.
 

Zontar

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CheetoDust said:
You do realize that first video is after the October 8th broadcast while the one you posted was form the October 14th broadcast. Doesn't actually change the fact that when the story was new they didn't touch the issue because "it's a New York thing".
 

RaikuFA

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Fox12 said:
I've seen too many friends hurt by sexual assault.
I don't know if you count me as a friend but if you do, chalk another one up.

shrekfan246 said:
erttheking said:
EDIT: Well, it didn't take long for this thread to be infested with victim blaming and "this is a big and serious problem but it can't be called a term I don't like that implies a big and serious problem I don't like."

Next time someone says rape culture isn't a thing, I'm showing them this thread.
Every thread about women being sexually harassed inevitably proves why women being sexually harassed is still a problem.

Guys who are completely unaffected get angry because thinking about it makes them uncomfortable. And hey, they should be uncomfortable, because sexual harassment is an uncomfortable subject. But rather than getting mad at the people who sexually harass, they get mad at the women who are harassed, and at the people who want to talk about it and try to make it so that women are allowed to openly admit to being harassed without, well, receiving more harassment.

Johnny Novgorod said:
Just for the record, I myself and many people I interact with have all very vehemently condemned Whedon since the allegations came out. 'Cause when you look into it, it's not really that unbelievable. It's unfortunate that there isn't any hard information, but frankly, that isn't really any of our business anyway. Sadly it does seem like it's just a vocal minority who are voicing any displeasure at him, but then, look at this thread. Is that really any surprise?
erttheking said:
Fox12 said:
erttheking said:
Fox12 said:
Oh joy, more people on both sides using this as ammunition for political debate. People never change.
A woman in my home town died in the Vegas shooting. And when I said this, someone else said something along the lines of "I'm very sorry, people need to keep politics out of this." And I really should have said this to them when it said it to me. No. People don't. Because otherwise, people do and say nothing to change the situation that caused this crap to happen in the first place. Thoughts and prayers should be with the victims, of course, but if we have nothing but thoughts and prayers for the victims, we're going to need a lot of it for all the future victims.
I just don't believe, for a second, that anyone actually gives a fuck for the victims. People who defended roman polanski for years were suddenly critical of Trumps Misogyny? Give me a break. They saw a point of weakness, and they struck.

The only reason people are coming down on Weinstein now is because he's suddenly more valuable as a pariah then as an asset. If he was still making people money then this wouldn't be an issue. People don't care about victims, they care about an agenda. The sexual assault of weinstein and cosby have been a matter of public record for decades.
I do. Plenty of people do. Many of us simply never heard of these issues because they were being kept hushed up. If they were out there and no one was talking about them, well, this is why I consider rape culture to be an issue.
Probably the wisest things said in the thread.
 

Dr. Crawver

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Zontar said:
While everyone's known about this for some time, it's still nice to see it finally get the attention it needs (even though I just know social justice types will use this to pretend there's a rape culture in the West when the very reason this had to be kept so secret is because the literal opposite is the case).

It's also funny to see the whole thing come crashing down. Not just those being exposed, but those why by omission (SNL, Kimmel) are showing how much higher they place their connections to these people then to doing the job they claim they're doing right. Kimmel even went so far as to make just one reluctant mention of it, only to immediately bring up the "Grab her by the pussy" comment, which really shows you how these people think.

Someone I don't like said something crass about a consensual encounter: bring it up so often for months on end that it becomes white noise and only those with an IS below 80 who would be entertained by dangling yarn could still laugh.

Someone I do like is exposed for sexually assault and potentially rape: "w-w-w-well I can't just bring him up, it's a New Yorker thing" -Literally the reason SNL didn't touch this issue, not even an exaggeration.

Fuck Hollywood, I hope this leads to a purge of the incompetent greedy execs who've been ruining the media, entertainment and by extension a large part of the country for years now.
Ehhh, little bit of projection here and there, but overall one of your best ever post that I've ever seen zontar, good job.

I will want to point out on your first part though. That is honest to god a definition of a rape culture. A culture that ignores, downplays or mitigates the publicity of acts of rape. I take solace in the fact we are making progress, and the fact that when these cases come out now, the person in question gets hammered to kingdom come, but yes, this is literally a symptom of a rape culture. Rape culture doesn't mean a culture where rape is embraced and everyone is allowed to rape willy nilly.
 

Dr. Crawver

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stroopwafel said:
Gethsemani said:
It should not be on the actresses to be moral paragons and severely jeopardize their careers as to not be the victims of sexual crimes. It should be on the Weinstein's of the world to not put them in a position where they must choose between being raped or being out of work.
It's not 'coercion'(let alone rape) if you rather suck Wienstein's dick than work at the pizza shop. Or any other job that regular people do and don't make you rich & famous.
I'm going to hope that you were just doubling down to try to win the argument here, but you have quite literally tried to claim that very clear coercion isn't coercion. This isn't casting couch stuff, which there could potentially be some debate on (assuming you don't have a foot in the industry, and are using it to get in). But here we have women who already have careers, albiet new careers, and he threatens to end them if they don't sleep with him. Textbook coercion.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
No bias. An employer has power over an employee, and a relationship or sexual liaison is inherently unequal. Even if it it's technically legal and consensual there may be an element of pressure, manipulation and coercion involved.
So no attempt to defend the profoundly erroneous "same sins" remark, then?

Not sure on what planet being a sex pest and - potentially - a multiple rapist is the "same" sin as infidelity and workplace relationships.

What Joss seems to have done was unethical (and hypocritical), but that's really not the same thing.
The rape accusations obviously make Weinstein the worse offender if they check out, but both men share the same bedrock of workplace sexual harassment - again, also allegations on both counts. Weinstein just has more fingers pointing at him.
 

Tsun Tzu

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Fox12 said:
Oh joy, more people on both sides using this as ammunition for political debate. People never change.
See, that's my entire problem with this, horrible bullshit in the story itself aside.

Can't just view it as the problem it is. Have to blow it up to include everything else that they want to harp on.
 

RunsWithBears

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People traded sex for fame. When the fame fades, they call it "sexual abuse".

Something about choices and consequences.
 

stroopwafel

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RunsWithBears said:
People traded sex for fame. When the fame fades, they call it "sexual abuse".

Something about choices and consequences.
Finally someone who gets it. Strange how 'harassment' is so disproportionally concentrated in one particular segment of the entertainment industry that, how coincidentially, happen to be all based on looks and the one-way ticket to fame and riches. Where are them uglies complaining of harassment?
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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RunsWithBears said:
People traded sex for fame. When the fame fades, they call it "sexual abuse".

Something about choices and consequences.
What a load of baloney. If someone denies you a job because you don't wanna sleep with him then he's obviously the one acting unethically and abusing his position. Sure, to an extent you are enabling him if you actually agree to it but to me there's very little doubt about who is in the wrong there.
 

stroopwafel

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PsychedelicDiamond said:
RunsWithBears said:
People traded sex for fame. When the fame fades, they call it "sexual abuse".

Something about choices and consequences.
What a load of baloney. If someone denies you a job because you don't wanna sleep with him then he's obviously the one acting unethically and abusing his position. Sure, to an extent you are enabling him if you actually agree to it but to me there's very little doubt about who is in the wrong there.
That is definitely true but the issue is with people trying to criminalize sleezeball behavior. The aspiring actress or model also knows she wouldn't be in the business if it weren't for a pretty face and it's not like women haven't used that to their advantage either. Again, take a loot at Wiener's wife and then look at Wiener's ugly old face.

Sleezeballs will be sleezeballs but as long as you're in a position to reject avances it's neiter harassment nor coercion. And if you did give Wiener a happy to get ahead don't complain about it later.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Johnny Novgorod said:
The rape accusations obviously make Weinstein the worse offender if they check out, but both men share the same bedrock of workplace sexual harassment - again, also allegations on both counts. Weinstein just has more fingers pointing at him.
You're like Trump with your wayward equivalences... No, they don't share the same accusation of sexual harassment.

You seem to be trying to say that any inherent power imbalance = harassment, when it really doesn't. For one man we have decades worth of accusations building to paint the picture of a guy who should've been at least reprimanded by his own company countless times for general misconduct, charged with actual sexual harassment, and maybe even found himself within a cell on rape charges. By all accounts he seems a sociopathic, egomaniacal sex pest.

For the other you have one account from a guy's ex-wife of infidelity, including in the workplace. They. Are. Not. The. Same. Thing... As far as I know the only source of accusations against Joss are Kai's, and she never once mentions or tries to accuse Joss of anything close to Weinstein's antics. Accusing him of hypocrisy and challenging his feminism is about as bad as it gets (with regards to his professional life and public persona).

Joss may genuinely have abused his position, but we need an accusation of that.

Did Joss take advantage of a culture of patriarchy? Probably, but that's so far their only overlap. A grossly misrepresentative line like "Weinstein just has more fingers pointing at him" would get you checked pretty hard in a court of law.