Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

[Onjenae]

could you generalize any more than that?

I for one am offended, I consider myself a "Nice-guy" and i am neither a push-over, cornball nor creepy. I may not be the most attractive guy in the universe and i may be a bit socially awkward. but to say that everyone who are a "nice guy" is a creep, is idiotic. it's like saying every beautiful woman is a ***** and is stupid and self-centered.

To clarify, I do not feel entitled to a relationship just because i was nice to them. and those who think that should not be considered or consider them selves as "nice guys" but be considered as douchebags.

I can't say how you can be offended. You go around labelling yourself and then you are surprised when others think it's ok to label you themselves. If you have nothing else to take pride in than the fact you are a "nice guy" by your own admission and feel the need to point it out to your friends then you shouldn't be surprised you aren't as interesting to people as you'd wish. Being nice isn't a virtue, it's a minimum requirement of human decency.

Please. I don't want to be rude but you can aspire to a bit more than being nice.

I don't really know how to answer this, but i will try.
you assume that i go around telling everyone that how nice a guy I am. and that i think that being nice, as you said , is a virtue.
yes, I pride myself in being a nice guy. but this is the first time in my entire life I have labeled myself as a nice guy. I don't expect anyone to behave in any other way than this. because like you said it's the minimum requirement of human decency. but when someone says that behaving according to human decency is a sign of being bigger ass or creep than people who are behaving below the minimum requirement of human decency is, in my opinion, a pretty good reason to be offended.

Well, obviously if you aren't one to boast about what a nice guy you are none of this criticism or the criticism you responded to prior is directed at you. We're discussing specifically the sort of sleazy guys that hang around women, bending to all their whims and when it turns out the girl has no interest in them, the first thing they moan about is that they can't understand why they aren't loved seeing as they're such a nice guy. Trust me those guys are everywhere. To me at least, people who spend all day banging on about how nice they are are a bit like if I went around telling people I'm not racist for no apparent reason and acting all smug about it. So what? There's absolutely nothing commendable about that; it's not an achievement. What's more, it's just plain arrogant to go around boasting about your qualities, especially if it's something that's inherently humble like "being nice". The fact that somebody goes around being so hypocritical with absolutely no sense of irony like that is in itself kind of disturbing. It says a lot about that person that they have practically no self awareness, something most people develop during infancy.

lol i agree with everything you have been saying so far omg lol we both have basically said the same thing but you was less harsh

as a woman im tired of hearing "nice guys" compalin about rejection aas a man getting rejected is apart of life and is something your going to have to learn how to deal with either that or make yourself into the type of man that gets approached by women so you can reject them isntead of them rejecting you

 

[mattttherman3]

This thread as a whole is why online dating can be very good: looking for a relationship?- Me too! Lets meet! and this either branches to a second date or back to square one.

As for me, I don't have any female friends, and I mean none, I am not looking for only sex, I just want someone to be in a relationship with someone who I am compatable with, it's a pretty good feeling you know? I hate being lonely, there is no feeling that is worse.

It's really weird, but when I was in a relationship, I seemed to be nicer to everyone, cleaned up more, worked out more. I was actually happy. I miss that

Also, the not calling yourself a nice guy thing, noted.

My dad was the nice guy, met my mom at age 30, my mom told me she would date up to 6 guys at once, she stopped that when she wanted to settle down.

 

[tobyornottoby]

This reeks of entitlement. We all have responsibility for our own happiness. Take you fate in your own hands. You want change? Start with yourself.

I can agree that most (if not all) of these things stem from issues said 'nice guy' has to begin with, whether it being a lack of confidence, or having a lack of experience, or whatever - but it's the fact that women seem to choose to ignore the good qualities we already have that I have a problem with. I understand that women like confidence, but I think it's unfair that they EXPECT it out of us. Those of us to whom confidence doesn't come to naturally have a REALLY hard time gaining it on our own. It takes a lot of time - as I said, time most women aren't willing to waste. We're trying to change, I'M trying to change, but it's not gonna come overnight.

And about entitlement: DUH we feel entitled, but it's not like it's a conscious thing - it's something we're born into. With our society, and all the Hollywood movies, and the pop songs, etc. How are we not supposed to feel entitled? The hero always gets the girl at the end of the movie; that's how it's always been. Obviously, we (as in all of us) consider ourselves to be the heroes of our own stories. (And no, I'm not trying to place the blame on anything but me, I'm just trying to point out why it's so difficult to change or think in a different way when we have so much outside influence.)

If you don't believe me, believe Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html

Hehe yeah.

Well, it's just that I'm not sure you can ask women to give chances.
I might be annoyed by how we're 'wasting' 1/3 of our days by sleeping, but there's not much I can do about that. It's our nature. Just focus on spending that 2/3 better.
I don't think it works on attraction either. More fruitful to focus on yourself than try to change how attraction works.

Why not expect confidence if you have the luxury to do so? Time is our most precious possession. I can understand not wanting to give that up for possibly no real gain. And then, not every girl has the luxury to do so. For every boy struggling with this, there is a girl struggling with it just as much. But usually the attention of the boys is on the 'hot chicks'.

 

[Existentialistme]

Hehe yeah.

Well, it's just that I'm not sure you can ask women to give chances.
I might be annoyed by how we're 'wasting' 1/3 of our days by sleeping, but there's not much I can do about that. It's our nature. Just focus on spending that 2/3 better.
I don't think it works on attraction either. More fruitful to focus on yourself than try to change how attraction works.

Why not expect confidence if you have the luxury to do so? Time is our most precious possession. I can understand not wanting to give that up for possibly no real gain. And then, not every girl has the luxury to do so. For every boy struggling with this, there is a girl struggling with it just as much. But usually the attention of the boys is on the 'hot chicks'.

I can agree with your first paragraph, that all makes sense, as well as your comment about how girls experience these things just as much. What I'm confused about is why you're saying girls have "the luxury to expect confidence"?

 

[Skoosh]

Many of the people I've met that consider themselves "nice guys" aren't actually as nice as they think. They treat women like a completely different species rather than simply a person. People differ on so many levels other than gender, it's a small aspect of what makes a person.

The "friend zone" is a stupid concept and sexist (regardless of which gender is using it, although it's almost entirely males complaining). Hey, it's perfectly fine to have friends of the opposite gender. Want to avoid it? Then make your intentions clear. It's not her fault you're not smooth enough to actually talk like an adult. And hey, people have the right to say no. I swear, a woman says yes, people yell slut. Woman says no, they cry friendzone.

Good thing you're here to stand up for all those poor victimized women. You go girl!

I'm kidding.

You're a joke.

Well done, you didn't actually state what you disagree with. I think you missed the point of what I said there. Somehow you got the idea that I was saying I'm saving a princess, which is exactly what I'm arguing against. People are people, we vary on way more than gender, stop pretending like a vagina makes someone an alien or a princess to save. Also the concept of "the horrible friendzone" is immature. Now how exactly does this make me a joke? Are you going to actually disagree with what I said, or just continue pretending I said something else?

Oh, unless it was the last 2 sentences that rubbed you wrong. Sexism still exists, just as many other forms of prejudice do. Pointing that out doesn't make me some crusader for women.

 

[artanis_neravar]

Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0

That's why I pick on a girl if I like her....yeah I'm a kid inside so what?


great post by the way, I agree completely

EDIT: and to avoid any mod wrath I have never stopped being friends with a girl because she didn't like me the way I liked her...well not completely true but that was a special case.

 

[zehydra]

The friend zone does not exist usually guys that get put in the friendzone are either losers or very unattractive no offense.

BTW i notice that nice guys seem to think they are entitled to women alot of you so called nice guys really creep me out

you act as if women belong to you and seem to be mad at the world because you rejected and noboyd wants to sleep with you.

Being nice does not make you an interesting person, a good person, does not mean you are attractive and I've notice unlike men , us ladies usually do not tell men we find unttractive that they are unattractive.

I wish more women were like me I do not hang around or associate with males that call themselves nice guys which is ually code for pushover , cornball,creep,or just very unattractive socially awkard male

trhe reason nice guys get the friend zone is not because of them being nice its because they are usually ugly as hell.

That's ok,tons of girls think they're entitled to their own "edward cullen" so I see it as even, lol.

 

[TheEdgeofDespair]

*snip*

THIS.

While I'm not entirely certain that the term "friend zone" is a wholly accurate representation of the problem at work in the situations to which it is applied, the people who detest those who have been friend-zoned as self-entitled and selfish lack an understanding of what the person being friend-zoned is experiencing. As someone who has, ultimately, been rejected, ignored, used, and abused more often than I care to count by those for whom I had romantic feelings, I can personally attest to the crushing weight that failure, dejection, and unrelenting loneliness can have on a person. When someone being friend-zoned severs his or her friendship with the other person involved, it ordinarily isn't out of malice or some underlying sense of objectification and greed; it is out of universal instinct of self-preservation. To remain connected with someone you are romantically interested in but who does not reciprocate those feelings is often too painful to bear. Perhaps the first or even the second time someone is friend-zoned is dismissible, but, after a certain point, it becomes a battle for self-preservation; one can either continue to be hurt or resign one's self to loneliness.

 

[Satocreed]

Just to start I agree entirely with the OP for the most part. No one is entitled to anything in any social forum, and if you're turned down you should deal with it, move on, and still be friends.

I have to ask of all those who say "Make your intentions know right away!" people, what happens if that wasn't your intention? What if your original intention, if any, was to just be friends, and it grew into something?

I only ask cause that happens to pretty well all the people in my friend group, though none ***** about it like they were entitled. If they do we give a swift bash to the head.

 

[Acier]

"I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you.

That line right there I have issues with. That is literally like saying "I like everything about you except your face." And that most certainly is a ***** thing.

Anyway, it's never been about being felt owed anything (well some people think that way, but you have idiots with everything) it's about how a woman can complain about never finding a guy that supports her, or "treats her right" ect, ect, when the guy who has been friend-zoned has done nothing but that. You're putting the blame entirely on the guy who, most of the time, just does nothing except be a nice guy to the woman and develops romantic feelings. Guy expresses such to girl, guy gets spurned, and generally it's "whatever" at that point and things return to normal. Sure some guys keep their romantic feelings, but they're still friends and generally don't try anything else and eventually move on. I haven't seen many cases of the guy being nice just in order to date said woman, as those aren't the "nice guys" they claim to be. Most people don't ***** about being stuck there and think the girl is a ***** for it, most just ***** when a girl complains about never finding a decent guy.

By the way, a lot of the time the woman also gives the guy the idea to ask her out, because I've seen plenty of times with my friends the woman saying things like "You're such a great guy," or "You're single? Anybody would be lucky to date you though!" (yes, actual quotes) so she really isn't being blameless here. Also a lot of people have a rejection recovery period, where wondering "why doesn't she like me?" or something similar, but that's just rejection in general.

So TL;DR version is that the guy generally doesn't ***** and call the woman a ***** for the friend-zone, what you hear more often is wondering why a woman will complain about never finding a decent guy when they apparently have one sitting in the friend zone.

Wait, why is not being sexually attracted to a guy a bad thing? And since when was not finding someone physically attractive the same as considering them ugly?

Basically my point is women shouldn't be called bitches for expressing preference that isn't you (generally speaking)

 

[jimbob123432]

I agree with the "nice guys are not entitled to relationships" sentiments posted here, HOWEVER, in my experience I've been "friendzoned" by women who take it too far. I've been in sexual relationships with women who later tell me they "don't like me in that way". THESE are the women that I ***** about.

I don't think that's the friendzone man, that sounds like the 'friends with benefits zone'.
On that note I think with better communication this could probably be avoided by outlining what you want in a relationship with a girl, even if there is a relationship or just a one night stand with a girl you really like and you end up thinking 'great we hooked up she's my girlfriend now!'. I will also note, I'm not picking you apart here or singling you out or even making assumptions on what happened in your relationship (no offense!, really!) I'm just seeing quite a few of these sorts of posts in these types of threads and I thought I would just share what I know on this subject

I originally thought that, but she wanted to back to "just being friends" but there "might be a chance of us being together". That's what I have an issue with: the women (or men for that matter) who think that sex doesn't mean anything. To me, and a lot of people like me, think that sex MEANS you want a relationship.

 

[sketch_zeppelin]

okay i'll buy the stop whinning thing. but if a guy is going after a girl his priority is to hook up with her not to become friends (they're is a difference). so if she doesn't want him then he has every right to stop haning around her if he chooses. mabey he's too hurt to be around her anymore. mabey he wasn't looking for another friend so he's moved on.

If he wants to become friends afterwards then fine if not the deal with it (he has). that being said. nobody wants to listen to a guy ***** about a girl for too long so its best if he just shuts up and moves on...the same can be said about girls by the way

 

[Michael Logan]

The term friendzone is just to make people who get rejected feel good about themself. Kind of like how ugly people say that beauty comes from within.

 

[Dusty Fred]

But what gets under my skin is the girls whose actual preference is fun with a fit, muscle-

My point? The difficulty for a girl in finding a nice guy (in SOME, let me be clear, not ALL cases)may be because the nice guy who would have done anything for her has been so crushed inside by watching her flirt and court and associate with shallow Adonis types that he no longer has the self-worth or confidence to greet the day with an open heart anymore.

Reminds me of this opening: http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/12/16/the-internet-nice-guy-rears-his-ugly-head-once-more/
=p

Ah. Yes. I did sound like him, didn't I? I like to think I'm not that bad, but nonetheless it was uncomfortably familiar.

Probably my post lacked a little finesse, as I wrote it in a hurry. And like I said, I was aiming more to describe a viewpoint than make a forceful argument.

 

[tobyornottoby]

Hehe yeah.

Well, it's just that I'm not sure you can ask women to give chances.
I might be annoyed by how we're 'wasting' 1/3 of our days by sleeping, but there's not much I can do about that. It's our nature. Just focus on spending that 2/3 better.
I don't think it works on attraction either. More fruitful to focus on yourself than try to change how attraction works.

Why not expect confidence if you have the luxury to do so? Time is our most precious possession. I can understand not wanting to give that up for possibly no real gain. And then, not every girl has the luxury to do so. For every boy struggling with this, there is a girl struggling with it just as much. But usually the attention of the boys is on the 'hot chicks'.

I can agree with your first paragraph, that all makes sense, as well as your comment about how girls experience these things just as much. What I'm confused about is why you're saying girls have "the luxury to expect confidence"?

Yeah I intended to say some girls have this luxury. The popular ones. These are the ones the Nice Guy will see going out with those McSexys. And they have that luxury. I'm very sure there are a lot of other girls that do not expect confidence.

 

[Phasmal]

My point? The difficulty for a girl in finding a nice guy (in SOME, let me be clear, not ALL cases)may be because the nice guy who would have done anything for her has been so crushed inside by watching her flirt and court and associate with shallow Adonis types that he no longer has the self-worth or confidence to greet the day with an open heart anymore.

Reminds me of this opening: http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/12/16/the-internet-nice-guy-rears-his-ugly-head-once-more/
=p

Oh my god.
As someone who has been through that (on the lady side), I must say that is so true and hilarious. I seriously lol'd. Thanks for that. =D

 

[Sarge034]

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

I am a 21 year old male.

First, I don't have a problem with the "friend zone" unless the female was leading me on and then pulls a "friend zone". That is when I become angry.

Second, I am a nice guy that wants a well-rounded relationship. I can tell you that people like me don't get laid that way the vast majority of the time. In every instance I have been such a good friend that the female wants to keep me as a friend and not have to treat me as a boyfriend. As the old saying goes, "always the bridesmaid never the bride". I'm just too good a friend.

It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.


This relationship advice brought to you by:

Because.... well, I am.

 

[CounterReproductive]

Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0

Only one thing I have to say here, hands up all those not surprised that a woman compared something to shoe shopping.

Could you be any more predicatable and stereo-typical. Other than that you didn't make a bad point.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

some guys just don't know how to flirt, and any guide you find basicly tells you to trick her in one way or another, which I have serious problems with.

also, just walking up to a girl and spouting "wanna go out with me?" is kinda creepy as well.

personally, I'd like to get to know her for a bit before I try anything; hobbies, dreams, quirks, things beyond just a name and a face.