Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

Sexy Devil

New member
Jul 12, 2010
701
0
0
Why can't we all just get along? Why can't friendzoners understand that it's kind of a bummer to be just friends with someone you have romantic feelings for? Why can't friendzonees understand that they're not entitled to a relationship? Why can't we all just agree that we all deserve equal respect and base our actions and relationships accordingly? Why do we have to vilify everyone that isn't us?
 

artanis_neravar

New member
Apr 18, 2011
2,560
0
0
Char-Nobyl said:
artanis_neravar said:
These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you.
That's just a more specific kind of bad. If a girl turns down a relationship because of that, she's the epitome of every girl who has ever posted a "OMG all guys are such dicks" status on Facebook, or claimed that "All the best guys are gay or married."

You're describing someone who says, "I like everything about you, but I think I can do better in the looks department. Will you stick around and support me until I find 'You 2.0'?" That's shallow and self-centered almost beyond words.
No I am not, just because a girl doesn't find you attractive doesn't mean that she only dates jerks. The girl never asked the guy to stay around until she finds another guy, the girl believes that this guy is her friend. If your friend has always made himself available for you to talk to why should you believe that this has changed


artanis_neravar said:
I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them.
Okay...now, riddle me this: are you not attracted to them because you find them ugly? Or is it because you think their personalities make them great friends, but not great partners?
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.



artanis_neravar said:
To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.
Wait, what? How are looks equitable with education in this comparison? If anything, you can use looks both times through. It's like getting turned down by a hospital because you don't look enough like their idealized image of a doctor, even if they think you're perfect for the job in every other regard.
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.
 

CODE-D

New member
Feb 6, 2011
1,966
0
0
Sorry lady but men don't like to think that they've been lead on. If your totally going to shoot them down then you shouldn't be surprised if they totally shoot you down as a friend and move on. Besides being awkward its somewhat just sad to stay with the person you like when they make it clear theres nothing. If theyre looking for a relationship(which is perfectly acceptable) and you just want friendship then they would be just wasting their time and unless you are going to help, you would be wasting theirs. If their thought of the friendship was going to lead to something and you strike it down then the friendship needs to be reevaluated or let go.
 

Vegosiux

New member
May 18, 2011
4,381
0
0
artanis_neravar said:
No, no I am not. Being attractive is subjective. For example I do not find models attractive, I don't find large breast of butts attractive so i would define such a person as unattractive, while people who do like those things would define them as attractive.
Yes, I agree, it's subjective. But "You're unattractive" is not a subjective statement. "I don't find you attractive" is.

Also, nitpick alert: "Like you, but X" is "Not like you." You either get the whole package or you don't, there's no custom character creator in reality.
 

artanis_neravar

New member
Apr 18, 2011
2,560
0
0
Vegosiux said:
artanis_neravar said:
No, no I am not. Being attractive is subjective. For example I do not find models attractive, I don't find large breast of butts attractive so i would define such a person as unattractive, while people who do like those things would define them as attractive.
Yes, I agree, it's subjective. But "You're unattractive" is not a subjective statement. "I don't find you attractive" is.

Also, nitpick alert: "Like you, but X" is "Not like you." You either get the whole package or you don't, there's no custom character creator in reality.
"I don't find you attractive" is the polite way to say it.

To nitpick "Like you, but X" is "like you but X" If you choose to date somebody you don't get to pick the parts of them you like and get ride of the parts of them you don't. But when you are choosing whether you want to date someone you do get to choose what traits you want. For example a guy meets this girl. She is a gamer, likes anime, and the same TV shows. These are all things he is looking for in a girl, but not all of the things he is looking for. Now lets say this girl also is extremely controlling, which is something that he doesn't want. he can choose to go find a girl with all of the things he likes who isn't controlling
 

Char-Nobyl

New member
May 8, 2009
784
0
0
artanis_neravar said:
No I am not, just because a girl doesn't find you attractive doesn't mean that she only dates jerks.
That's correct. It just means that she loses all credibility when she complains about how "all guys r dicks" while on the hunt for a better-looking version of her rejected male friend.

artanis_neravar said:
The girl never asked the guy to stay around until she finds another guy, the girl believes that this guy is her friend. If your friend has always made himself available for you to talk to why should you believe that this has changed
Possibly because you revealed that your only reason for rejecting his attempt at a relationship is your belief that you can find someone just as good but better looking.

artanis_neravar said:
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.
*facepalm*

Okay, then humor me a bit further: is this a lack of physical attraction that you're talking about? And, for bonus points, is the reason for it because of their appearance (ie, you don't think they're good looking), or because you can't view them as romantic partners because of how your existing friendship/interactions affects how you view them?

Or, a bit more frankly: if they were better looking (up to your ideal), would you consider romantic advances if they were presented to you?

artanis_neravar said:
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.
Okay. Then tell me: how does physical appearance affect someone's candidacy as a dating prospect? And we're not talking about extremes, either (ie, Igor vs Adonis). Do you really consider it just as important that your partner be a knockout as you would a prospective doctor having graduated from medical school?
 

Vegosiux

New member
May 18, 2011
4,381
0
0
artanis_neravar said:
"I don't find you attractive" is the polite way to say it.
No, it's the way of saying it that correctly relays the fact that it's a subjective opinion.

If you say "You're unattractive", you are not relaying that. "Unattractive" would be something (nearly) nobody could ever be attracted to, ever.

For example, you talk about models. Am I attracted to them? Nah. Do I think they're unattractive? No, since considering they attract quite some people, there must be something making them attractive.

Or let me try an analogy. You're at a friend's place for lunch, and they make something you don't really like. Does the fact that you didn't like the meal make them a shitty cook? I didn't think so.
 

Hugga_Bear

New member
May 13, 2010
532
0
0
The 'friend zone' is better described as the 'do not want to date' zone. The idea of people being so close that their friendship might be in jeopardy if they date is cute but extremely rare, it does happen but we're talking like one in a few million here. No the majority of it is "I don't want to date you." and you know what? That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that and people getting their knickers in a twist because they really want to screw the girl that just rejected them need to man the hell up.

As for "nice guys", there's again a difference here, nice guys are great and do well in life. I'm a nice guy, honestly I am, I go out of my way to help people, I put myself there for them. I don't ***** about others, I avoid the very few people I dislike and I give out advice like a pez dispenser gives out sweet crunchy goodness.
"Nice guys" are dicks who lie and act nice in order to get laid. The difference between a nice guy and a "nice guy" isn't hard to see really and is best exemplified by what happens in the case that both get rejected by a girl.

A nice guy will accept that he is not what she wants but stay friends, sure they may drift apart now he's not hitting on her but the reasons he liked her remain so he'll stick around and they'll become buds, maybe even great friends.
A "nice guy" will get angry that she dare reject him and will cease all communication with her because now she won't fuck him she's as useful as a pile of straw in his life.

Nice guys and "nice guys". Simples.
These comics help my point:
http://xkcd.com/513/
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrskhrpOs21qcz3izo1_500.png
 
May 29, 2011
1,179
0
0
So in you're example, first he becomes friends with her, and then he starts feeling attracted to her, and the she rejects him (which she is completely justified in doing don't take me wrong), and then the man only ever wanted to hang out with the woman because he wanted to have sex with her?

I agree with you almost 100 % but you have a bit of a contradiction there.

And in my opinion (to be honest my opinion was created mostly by other commenters on this thread but in "my" opinion) you can trace the problem to people not making their intentions clear.
 

jboking

New member
Oct 10, 2008
2,694
0
0
With the exception of the entitlement bit, I can understand a lot of what the OP is saying. Though, I always felt that the "Friend-zone" was just a simple explanation of where you are in your relationship with another person. If you are just a friend, and will never be anything but that, it is fair to say you are in the "Friend-zone."

One note: I would say that when a female friend complains to me that one of her male friends sees her as "Just another one of the guys," it is the equivalent of a male bitching about being "Friend-zoned." In my experience, the woman who complains of being viewed as "Just another one of the guys," often talks about it in a way that suggests she is entitled to a relationship with the male of her focus.


In other words, this habit is by no means a male-only occurrence and shouldn't be treated as such.
 

Michael Logan

New member
Oct 19, 2008
322
0
0
llagrok said:
Michael Logan said:
The term friendzone is just to make people who get rejected feel good about themself. Kind of like how ugly people say that beauty comes from within.
You couldn't be further off base.

One is a loose term about how people either try to jump from being friends to lovers, or find themselves friends with the girl they wanted to date. This has no positive associations. Why would this be a term created to make people feel good about themselves? Nobody thinks this is a good thing.

The second is a rejection of how media's sold you on what's beautiful and what isn't. Go back a few years and the trait people wanted in women were good child-bearing hips.

These two are not similar in the least.
I guess so, what I meant was that when someone gets rejected they can tell themself that it wasnt their fault(for being ugly, boring or whatever.) its because the girl put them in the friendzone, its out of their control.
 

Sarge034

New member
Feb 24, 2011
1,623
0
0
Phasmal said:
I've heard `dating is expensive` several times, but I dont think I've ever had or been expensive during dating. I initially go out with boyfriend, neither of us have jobs, we go to a restaurant (our first date was on my birthday), he buys because its my birthday, cost him maybe £25 (less in dollars but I dont know how much and cba to google it). Next month is his birthday, I pay for us to go out.

I can't say I have cost my boyfriend any more than he has cost me.
It sounds like you both understand that money is going to be tight in the relationship so I would call your relationship a statistical outlier. I also don't know what the social norm is in the UK for dating. In the US the social norm is that more often than not the man will cover any expense during an outing. However, sometimes the couple will "go Dutch" or split the bill in half. The male is also expected to buy gifts for the female every once in a while.

Also...
>1 Pound = about $1.50 US
>25 Pounds = about $39.65 US

A meal for two under $40.00 US is a pretty good deal at a middle class restaurant, but meals will be $40.00+ US per person at an upper-middle class restaurant.

I'm sure you cost each other more than 25 Pounds a year, but reguardless I know for a fact that most coupples in the US spend way more than $80.00 US on each other per year.
 

artanis_neravar

New member
Apr 18, 2011
2,560
0
0
Char-Nobyl said:
artanis_neravar said:
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.
*facepalm*

Okay, then humor me a bit further: is this a lack of physical attraction that you're talking about? And, for bonus points, is the reason for it because of their appearance (ie, you don't think they're good looking), or because you can't view them as romantic partners because of how your existing friendship/interactions affects how you view them?

Or, a bit more frankly: if they were better looking (up to your ideal), would you consider romantic advances if they were presented to you?
Yes, it is, while they are fun people to be around I am not attracted to any of them physically. If I was physically attracted to them then I might consider a romantic relationship with them.

artanis_neravar said:
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.
Okay. Then tell me: how does physical appearance affect someone's candidacy as a dating prospect? And we're not talking about extremes, either (ie, Igor vs Adonis). Do you really consider it just as important that your partner be a knockout as you would a prospective doctor having graduated from medical school?
Physical attraction is a major part of any attraction, if you aren't attracted to someone then the relationship will never work, so yes physical attraction plays a very big part in who I am willing to date.

And before anyone tries to call me shallow, it works the other way to, if I find a girl physically attractive, but don't like her personality then I won't date her.
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
3,676
0
0
Sarge034 said:
Yeah that was an example from the first two months of us dating, since then there has been times when I've worked and he hasnt and when (like now) he's working and I'm not. (Its complicated, I got hit by a mystery illness). But we used to maintain a you-pay-I-pay thing when we went out, and every other couple I know does it too, but I don't know much about the US (as evidenced by getting the pound and dollar thing mixed up).
He only gets me gifts if its an occasion and thats standard as far as I know.
But now we've been together long enough its `our` money now, no matter who brings it in.
 

WingedIncubus

New member
Nov 5, 2010
229
0
0
I'll be mean and direct : In a majority of friend zone cases, that troll Onjenae is right. However she/he/it worded it to sting rather than provide a reality check.

I'll provide the reality check.

Yet it remains: often the guy who is crushing on a girl and ends up friend-zoned, has few, if nothing to show that he might be attractive enough to be even a casual hook-up. Quite a few of these are nerds or socially awkward, either scrawny or fat, unkempt, with weird or unpopular side gigs, dressed by their moms with next to no knowledge about male fashion and dressing right, and low assertiveness and high shyness level.

If they would work on these issues and improve themselves physically, like hit the gym, dress nicer, use fitting colors, go out in social clubs and meet out new people with no ulterior motives behind their head than networking, meeting new people, and having fun, and take the energy to invest in themselves not only the pool of girls they'd meet would grow, but they would be actually showing attractive traits like determination, ambition, drive, maturity, growing up, fitness, etc. To get high, you have to start low.

It's sad, because a lot of these guys, if they took the time and effort to work on their appearance, would be much more marketable as potential mates. Girls and women want a guy they can show around as theirs, they want some sort of bragging rights, if only to say "See my guy over here who looks good? He's MY guy. I'm in love with him."

Also, and tangently linked to the above, a lot of crushers that have weaseled themselves into into romantic dead-end zones are crushing on a woman a lot of guys would, in fact, find attractive and who have much more options available to them than their little guy friend pining for her over there. Guys want bragging rights as well, however you don't hear them whine about being friend-zoned by the 200-pounded, bottled-eyes shy girl who hangs up with the girl posse because she's desperate for friends.

Odds are, the crushee is quite attractive, and she's like a buoy to her crushing boy. Hence why they invest A LOT emotionally in this "relationship". A lot of them haven't accepted that first they have to go where they can fit in right now, rather than aiming too high without having the goods to show they deserve that high. But no, the girlfriend has to be cute and attractive. Why aim for little miss plain, shy Jane over there who's never kissed a boy, when you can be friends and have the lottery ticket with Miss Queen Popularity who's so hot and so nice with you. If she's so nice with me, maybe it's because she finds me... cute?

Now if they took the time to work on themselves to improve their attractiveness and their social intelligence AND stopped to rate potential girlfriends on how "hawt" they'd be around their arms to show to their guy friends, their chances would improve significantly. Odds are, for every guy being friend zoned by a hot girl, there's a girl, not necessarily among the most attractive of ducklings, who's crushing on him right now.
 

artanis_neravar

New member
Apr 18, 2011
2,560
0
0
Vegosiux said:
artanis_neravar said:
"I don't find you attractive" is the polite way to say it.
No, it's the way of saying it that correctly relays the fact that it's a subjective opinion.

If you say "You're unattractive", you are not relaying that. "Unattractive" would be something (nearly) nobody could ever be attracted to, ever.

For example, you talk about models. Am I attracted to them? Nah. Do I think they're unattractive? No, since considering they attract quite some people, there must be something making them attractive.

Or let me try an analogy. You're at a friend's place for lunch, and they make something you don't really like. Does the fact that you didn't like the meal make them a shitty cook? I didn't think so.
Unattractive is subjective, as I said, so my saying that someone is unattractive should only be taken as my subjective opinion. Most models are unattractive, because I find them unattractive. Could I expand on that more? Sure. Do I have to to get my point across? Nope.

Would I say that my friend is a bad cook? No, but I would say that the food was bad.
 

Nieroshai

New member
Aug 20, 2009
2,940
0
0
artanis_neravar said:
Char-Nobyl said:
artanis_neravar said:
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.
*facepalm*

Okay, then humor me a bit further: is this a lack of physical attraction that you're talking about? And, for bonus points, is the reason for it because of their appearance (ie, you don't think they're good looking), or because you can't view them as romantic partners because of how your existing friendship/interactions affects how you view them?

Or, a bit more frankly: if they were better looking (up to your ideal), would you consider romantic advances if they were presented to you?
Yes, it is, while they are fun people to be around I am not attracted to any of them physically. If I was physically attracted to them then I might consider a romantic relationship with them.

artanis_neravar said:
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.
Okay. Then tell me: how does physical appearance affect someone's candidacy as a dating prospect? And we're not talking about extremes, either (ie, Igor vs Adonis). Do you really consider it just as important that your partner be a knockout as you would a prospective doctor having graduated from medical school?
Physical attraction is a major part of any attraction, if you aren't attracted to someone then the relationship will never work, so yes physical attraction plays a very big part in who I am willing to date.

And before anyone tries to call me shallow, it works the other way to, if I find a girl physically attractive, but don't like her personality then I won't date her.
I think part of tthe discussion needs to be "why do women never seem to see nice guys as attractive, only being friend material?" To use image exploitation memes, Good Guy Greg will never get laid. EVER. While the Scumbag Steves keep getting with his friends. Why is this pattern so prevalent? I'm no female, but I would say most of my friends who've been friendzoned were actually pretty good-looking. One theory I have: the nice guy is clearly interested in a committed relationship, while the other guy promises instant gratification. The nice guy won't pursue sex at first becauuse he doesn't want the girl to feel used. He doesn't ask her out because he doesn't want to seem like all he wants is sex. Meanwhile, the other guy comes in and promises everything on the spot. What baffles mee is why while men are pigs, men that are not pigs get turned down time and again for men who are. Being friendzoned is one thing, but in every time I've seen, it is always coupled with the scumbag rival getting the girl and inevitably hurting her later by being, well, a scumbag.
 

DoomyMcDoom

New member
Jul 4, 2008
1,411
0
0
I've only been friendzoned a couple times, and yeah it hurts a bit, but also on the other hand I have almost no female friends that I've not been involved with first... so maybe I'm doing it the wrong way... lol
 

Nieroshai

New member
Aug 20, 2009
2,940
0
0
Char-Nobyl said:
artanis_neravar said:
No I am not, just because a girl doesn't find you attractive doesn't mean that she only dates jerks.
That's correct. It just means that she loses all credibility when she complains about how "all guys r dicks" while on the hunt for a better-looking version of her rejected male friend.

artanis_neravar said:
The girl never asked the guy to stay around until she finds another guy, the girl believes that this guy is her friend. If your friend has always made himself available for you to talk to why should you believe that this has changed
Possibly because you revealed that your only reason for rejecting his attempt at a relationship is your belief that you can find someone just as good but better looking.

artanis_neravar said:
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.
*facepalm*

Okay, then humor me a bit further: is this a lack of physical attraction that you're talking about? And, for bonus points, is the reason for it because of their appearance (ie, you don't think they're good looking), or because you can't view them as romantic partners because of how your existing friendship/interactions affects how you view them?

Or, a bit more frankly: if they were better looking (up to your ideal), would you consider romantic advances if they were presented to you?

artanis_neravar said:
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.
Okay. Then tell me: how does physical appearance affect someone's candidacy as a dating prospect? And we're not talking about extremes, either (ie, Igor vs Adonis). Do you really consider it just as important that your partner be a knockout as you would a prospective doctor having graduated from medical school?
I will supplement your point via my example. I am painfully friendzone-prone, coupled with my family-troubles-related depression. That being said, I won my fiancee by being her best friend and showing that a relationship with me would be rewarding emotionally, etc etc saving you a wall of text. I would not, however, call myself very physically attractive. I am short and slightly overweight, and have a permanent cough from chemical lung damage. My lack of aattractiveness did not matter in thhe slightest in the face of everything else I could do. After many failures and despite my shortcomings, I am an example of what most Nice Guys wish would work with women. What is sad is that emotional happiness does not seem to be on the minds of most women. To note, I became more attractive to her as her feelings for me grew, since personal aesthetics change with emotions. As already subjective as attractiveness is, it definitely isn't set in stone for the beholder either.

CAPTCHA: sick puppy
SOLVEmedia, I am offend