Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

tobyornottoby

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Jimbo1212 said:
- Naturally, women do not seek "a but of fun". This has been a proven fact for the last 50 years. To do such a thing is due to large underlying emotional problems.

- No - I mean a good, decent guy who is fun, and smart, and not a prick. I see many girls going out with guys who other men would instantly recognise as a thug, and then for some reason the girl is surprised when the guy cheats/beats her, yet none of the men are.

- What separates humans from other animals? The ability to think before acting. To not do this makes the person as backwards as a dog.
Also, many girls would solve their emotional problems if they actually stopped to think for a second. The fact that they do not shows a level of denial or fear from confronting their problems. This is extremely unhealthy.
The fact that your points are starting to get real misogynistic seems somewhat unhealthy too.

Also, you do not seem to understand how feelings work. It's not about thinking before acting. It's about what influences the decision-making process in your head which determines acting. And people differ in how much thinking and feeling influences that decision-making process. But you seem to not have a very high regard for anything that is not like you.

People are neither dogs or machines. Both are unhealthy extremes.

Women seek good genes for their offspring. This has been a proven fact for the last 50.000 years.

Jimbo1212 said:
Yes, logic dictates and solves everything. If something makes no sense, then it is wrong or poorly explained.
But you didn't rebut with an explanation of why it doesn't make sense. Others even explained why it does actually make sense. All you said was "Because it doesn't make sense".
 

sarahvait

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I have no clue who said this, but I kinda agree with it.

"Friend zoning is bullshit because girls are not machines that you feed kindness quarters to until sex falls out."

I believe you can tweak this line quite nicely so that it works with guys as well.
 

tobyornottoby

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Hagi said:
You're entirely correct but I think you're missing the main point of my post.

I'm not saying he shouldn't get back together with his friend. I'm saying he shouldn't feel guilty about temporarily breaking that friendship. That was as much her fault as his.

Currently he clearly feels he's the bad guy and he deserves the blame. I think he's wrong. Both parties were responsibly and, to add to that, if both parties don't put any effort into getting back together I'd put some serious question marks with how good this friendship really is.

He should attempt to get back together. But if she doesn't start putting effort into that as well after he invites her to hang out or whatever then as far as I'm concerned the friendship isn't worth it. It has to come from both sides.
He could feel guilty, because he could have prevented it with a little more understanding.
She could have, with a little more understanding, understood him misunderstanding her.
It's a bit of a chicken-egg thingy, but I maintain that the 'fault' started when he misinterpreted her, not when she said what she said.

Yeah it should come from both sides now.
(But without the details of the fight, and it's severity, there's no telling about the current severity of radio silence.)
 

jamcknight

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First of all, belittling people, either male or female, is wrong, particularly when it comes to an issue that is this important to someone's mental, emotional, and psychological health. Telling a guy (or girl) to just "suck it up" doesn't help anything and is just a lazy dismissal of their pain and loss. Do they need to get over the person who has friendzoned them? Yes, absolutely. But they DON'T need your patronizing asshattery.

If you are friendzoned, you should take the opportunity to examine yourself, your relationship with the "friend," and how/why things developed in this way. Examine the issue on both the micro (personal) level and the macro (societal) level. There are a lot of reasons why you might not be attractive as a partner to your friend. Some of them you can change. Some of them you can't. Recognizing which ones are which is the real key.

There is a real strain of man-bashing when it comes to these types of discussions. There is no place for man-bashing, just like there is no place for woman-bashing.

Most "nice-guys" are just normal guys, but they've likely been taught many, many falsehoods with regards to sex and gender. It takes some serious self-examination, experience, and effort to undo the damage, but it can be done. When you've been friendzoned by someone you care about deeply, that's a good time to start, because it should wake you up to some harsh realities.
 

Tomster595

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Ok, I'm gonna have to agree here for the most part. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to complain and go on and on about the "friendzone." I just feel incredibly stupid using the term. So I agree with the fact that guys should shut the fuck up about it, but I will say that girls will frequently pass up relationships with guys for no reason other than to preserve a friendship. Personally, I don't agree with this, but I can see where these girls are coming from. They have a good friendship and they're afraid that a romantic/sexual relationship may complicate things and eventually end the friendship. I was recently in a situation like that, but I'm not gonna complain forever and be mad at her for "friendzoning" me. I was upset for a while at the rejection, but I understood where she was coming from, and now I'm dating another girl, she's dating another guy, and we're still really close friends. I think the main problem with this whole "friendzone" thing is not that it doesn't exist at all, but that most guys blow it way out of proportion and just won't shut up about it.
 

Jimbo1212

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tobyornottoby said:
Jimbo1212 said:
- Naturally, women do not seek "a but of fun". This has been a proven fact for the last 50 years. To do such a thing is due to large underlying emotional problems.

- No - I mean a good, decent guy who is fun, and smart, and not a prick. I see many girls going out with guys who other men would instantly recognise as a thug, and then for some reason the girl is surprised when the guy cheats/beats her, yet none of the men are.

- What separates humans from other animals? The ability to think before acting. To not do this makes the person as backwards as a dog.
Also, many girls would solve their emotional problems if they actually stopped to think for a second. The fact that they do not shows a level of denial or fear from confronting their problems. This is extremely unhealthy.
The fact that your points are starting to get real misogynistic seems somewhat unhealthy too.

Also, you do not seem to understand how feelings work. It's not about thinking before acting. It's about what influences the decision-making process in your head which determines acting. And people differ in how much thinking and feeling influences that decision-making process. But you seem to not have a very high regard for anything that is not like you.

People are neither dogs or machines. Both are unhealthy extremes.

Women seek good genes for their offspring. This has been a proven fact for the last 50.000 years.

Jimbo1212 said:
Yes, logic dictates and solves everything. If something makes no sense, then it is wrong or poorly explained.
But you didn't rebut with an explanation of why it doesn't make sense. Others even explained why it does actually make sense. All you said was "Because it doesn't make sense".
Right, emotions should always be placed below logic. If you can not do that, then good luck in life as you will need all the luck you can get.
From my personal experience, those who let emotions dominate their decisions always screw up and never learn, because you can not learn from emotions. Those who use their head always end up making a good decision either first time round or soon after and end up happy. To put it simply:
Logic leads to emotional happiness
Emotions lead to misery and repeated failure.

Yes, geners are important, but why are you implying that decent guys are unfit and ugly? ^_-
The rough guys I know are short, stupid, and unhealthy (either too fat or thin). Some of the smart guys I know are in shape and good looking ergo, genetically superior.

Bf material V marriage material is stupid because surely marriage material >> bf material.
By calling someones bf material, you are implying that they are not as good as Marriage material, yet for some reason still choose bf material.
That makes no sense.
 

neversleep

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I think I get "friendzoned" a lot and I often get the you'd be a great boyfriend remark (which is annoying if you can't get one)

But I agree with OP totally.
Just because i'm nice doesn't automatically mean I deserve a relationship. I'm social and stuff but I need to find a way to impress a girl and improve myself.

I think all of the guys whining online are just flawed(I am too, otherwise I suppose I wouldn't be single) and enjoy blaming it on something other then themselves. They annoy me alot because they make it seem like the world owes them something even though they aren't doing much else than acting like a decent person (which doesn't even mean they are decent).

I really wish the term friendzone would die and I wish all these whining "nice guys" invested their time more into making themselves more desirable (which takes more effort than just being nice) and quit blaming girls for not being into them just because they have their eye on them.


Girls liking jerks does happen alot, I guess. But it's more a stereotype than a fact of life.
 

Sidiron

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Feb 11, 2008
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Hehehe, this thread is rather weird and without accusing anyone of anything, it all seems a bit rhetorical. The gamers have decided that Mass Effect relationships are how things should happen, yet they don't.
Some guys are dicks and so are some females, enough with the wide spreading generalisations.

Being a nice guy is a little of a blow to a male's ego and that is why some go on to complain about it. Women can suffer from similar 'put-downs' and then they will whinge about them.

Shit happens.
 

Xman490

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Doclector said:
And I know why it happened to me. I know every damn day I look in the mirror and somehow look more of an abomination than the day before. Everyone's shallow, I know that, even I'm shallow a little. You can't lie and say that isn't the reason, because 90% of the time, it is. Now I don't do that to girls anymore. I don't disappear with barely a word. Because I don't ask girls out anymore, because I know there is only one conclusion, that she rejects me, and either I leave her forever, or completely destroy myself by staying. I've accepted the fact that I will never be wanted. I am a horrifying, disgusting creature, and it was always a bit unfair to expect anyone to be attracted to me, but that doesn't make it an easy thing to accept.

So yeah. It's not fair or right that this "friendzone" effect exists, but it does, because you just don't stop wanting someone because they don't want them back. Quoted because I'm interested to know what you think.
Even though that's taking this idea too far, the inner dramatic solipsists in us hold such pessimistic ideas as truths.
Whether it's being fat or scrawny or even too brawny, or too dull or too short or too tall or too bright, something often keeps us alone at night.
 

blackrave

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tobyornottoby said:
blackrave said:
tobyornottoby said:
Aprilgold said:
tobyornottoby said:
Aprilgold said:
And we come to the great circle of truth about this. Theres a tails to every head, and a paint for every color. Just because "Friend Zone Whining" makes you seem like you felt entitled to sex, it is more or less because of the heart break. You just wanted it so badly and working up that courage takes a long time only to have yourself rejected. Of course its also the ultimate dick move to say that "I like your personality, but you yourself can go die in a tar-pit" or something to that degree.
Why? looks matter to a lot of people. She appreciates you as a friend, no dying in tar-pits required. If this is brought in a tactical manner, there's nothing dickish about it.
Because it shows that she will only date you or others for their looks, not for their personalities which is as shallow as saying that you will only date the biggest hunk at school. Saying that your not my type is better then saying that you are my type but you look like shit.
A cow is an animal, an animal isn't a cow. Saying you don't want to date someone who has the personality but not the looks is not saying you would date someone who has the looks but not the personality.
But this is exactly like that
It seems that girls needs extensive experience to tell difference between pretense and sincerity.
So pretty face can easily pretend for a night or two, to get you into bed.
Is he shallow? Sure. But that doesn't matter because he's pretty and spew some romantic bullshit.
Or maybe they genuinely like what pretty face has to offer, despite the downsides.
Yeah and after her heart is broken yet again she goes to the "nice guy" to cry on his shoulder and spew "I wish more guys were like you"-nonsense.
Then after dumping her bad mood on him, she feels better and repeats same mistake again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And.. I don't know I snapped after sixth time.
I felt helpless. She never saw in me something more than tearbin, and my advices/suggestions went unnoticed or ignored. So I stopped it.
Because it hurts. And sucks. But still mostly hurts :(

Xman490 said:
Even though that's taking this idea too far, the inner dramatic solipsists in us hold such pessimistic ideas as truths.
Whether it's being fat or scrawny or even too brawny, or too dull or too short or too tall or too bright, something often keeps us alone at night.
I always thought that it is some sort of magical rainbow behind guy's back that only females can see :D

Das Boot said:
Mr.K. said:
Gromril said:
Heh nah, Iv'e never asked a woman If the rag Im holding smells of chloroform or anything like that.
Well then you have 10 thousand nerds here waiting with baited breath what this secret of your is...
Its simple you dont ask them if it smells like chloroform you just shove it in their face.
You don't watch LoadingReadyRun much, do you?
 

Enverex

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TheVioletBandit said:
I don't consider myself a "nice guy" and I have never been "friend-zoned" so maybe I am missing something, but why assume the guy thinks he's owed something? couldn't it be possible that he was simply hurt by the rejection, because well...rejection hurts?

Also, no one wants to be "friends" with someone they have feelings for that doesn't want them back, it's just too painful; is that really so hard to understand.
I agree entirely with this.

I found OPs comment "And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants" really quite offensive. When you really like someone (and no, I don't mean "just want to have sex with them") the rejection really hurts, and whether you like it or not, it'll keep hurting every time you see them. THAT is why you make distance between yourself and that girl and why she loses a friend.

The people complaining about being friend-zoned may just be really lonely guys who are trying hard and having no success in finding someone and are therefore spiraling further down into this pit of dispair.

After having re-read OPs post, I feel it was just posted to create drama. It's not a question, it's not looking for enlightenment, it just appears to be a ***** at lonely guys. That's a low blow OP. Low blow.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Enverex said:
I found OPs comment "And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants" really quite offensive. When you really like someone (and no, I don't mean "just want to have sex with them") the rejection really hurts, and whether you like it or not, it'll keep hurting every time you see them. THAT is why you make distance between yourself and that girl and why she loses a friend.
Generally speaking, I've known a great many women who were genuinely confused by this phenomenon. They also view the act of retracting the friendship as hostile/unnecessary. I don't think the OP is alone in this.

As to it being offensive, I think you can chalk it up to a misunderstanding. What they're viewing as friendship is actually courting behavior. And to be fair, if you're not up front about the fact you're courting, you can see how such a misunderstanding would take place.
 

jamcknight

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Mortai Gravesend said:
How about their little bit of pain is not a reason to avoid calling them on their bullshit. What's being dismissed is rotten behavior and self-serving views.
Your reply is entirely rotten and self-serving. You belittle their pain and loss, without knowing anything whatsoever about the specifics of their situation. As an above poster said, when you love someone rejection hurts. It's not just a matter of "oh no I couldn't get in her pants."

No, there really isn't much of a strain of man-bashing. It's bashing of a specific mindset. It says nothing about those who don't complain about friend zones and whatnot. I can happily ignore it as simply saying nothing about me since I think the friend zone is bullshit.
Yes, it most certainly is man-bashing. I guarantee you you wouldn't be saying these things if the roles were reversed. You're just taking cheap shots at men because it's socially acceptable to do so.
 

Damien Granz

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museofdoom said:
Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0
It's true that women shouldn't just feel they have to 'put out' just because somebody is nice to them. I completely agree with that.

What I have problem with is two things.

One, if somebody confesses their love to you, and if you get pissed off and treat them like shit about it, it does sort of make you an asshole. And that's the focus of many of the 'friend zone' memes.

Again, I'm not saying you should or have to drop your pants to them that instant. Nothing like that.

But you can be a bit considerate of their feelings for you, especially if they're very genuine and stem from something more than just wanting sex. To imply otherwise would be to imply that men can't develop feelings for somebody other than wanting sex, which is insulting, and it also implies that men can't develop loving feelings and sexual ones at the same time, which sort of flies in the face of many women's desires that more men would couple romantic feelings and sexual ones together.

If somebody confesses such feelings and then the other person flips out about how all they are is a chauvinistic pig that wants to get laid, then yeah, I could see not wanting to be around that person very much.

Second, if you say that you want somebody for their brains and personality and how sweet they are, then you end up dating or having sex with somebody for their appearance, yeah that does sort of make a person out to be a shallow *****.

You're saying, basically, that no matter what qualities somebody has, the only thing that matters is whether or not they're attractive. That's like, the definition of shallow.

It'd be exactly the same as if a guy had a female friend that was super nice or sweet and smart and funny and all that, but that guy ended up dating and having sex some super hot blond air headed type girl, because the first girl was too fat or dumpy or whatever.

We'd call him a pig, and a bastard, and everybody would lament "Why don't men want women for their personality? Why don't men fall in love to have sex, rather than the other way around?"

When, again, it's really the same exact thing.

Then you're telling said fat dumpy girl "If you were REALLY a nice girl, you'd just accept the fact that men only want attractive figures. And if you ever stop being that guy's friend and dealing with that, then you're the horrible person for moving on."

I mean, yeah, you're right, that shallow guy in that situation, shouldn't be forced to stop dating really hot girls because somebody happens to like him, and that her kindness doesn't mean he should have to give up on his pursuits to date her. But his actions still makes him a bit of an asshole.

With your shoe metaphor, these aren't shoes, but real live people. Should said red shoes sit around and watch you wear the new pair of shoes when they love you, knowing how hard and painful that would be?

Moving on and not being forced to deal with watching their love affection with another person makes them an automatic bastard?

Should said pair of red shoes have you come crying to them and complaining about how the new pair of shoes hurt you or only wants you for your body, because that's what a 'good' pair of shoes does, but you still refuse to wear the red shoes no matter how comfortable because they're not as attractive?

Is it fair to say that seeing people as interchangeable accessories that have match your ensemble no matter how well they fit or how much pain you put yourself into (again, in front of somebody that genuinely loves you), doesn't make said person at least the tiniest bit shallow?

Now, by all means, I'm not saying all women do this. Or all men do the reverse. But the idea that it never happens? That's pretty funny to me.
 

jamcknight

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Also, how the fuck do you guarantee I wouldn't say the same if the roles were reversed? Is that what people like you like to delude themselves into thinking to justify their stupid positions?

And no, I'm not taking cheap shots at men. I'm taking shots at people who have a warped view of relationships. I am a man anyway. Your reply is fucking pathetic.
Your juvenile post and comments devolve quickly from adolescent hogwash into anger and direct attacks. Hoisted with your own petard.