Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

Jimbo1212

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tobyornottoby said:
Not necessarily bad decisions if one decision leads to both the higher ups and lower downs. It becomes a choice then, depending on your preferences which you're more inclined towards.

Yeah that's true, one of the difficulties in this discussion is differentiating between nice guys and "Nice Guys".

At it's core, it goes back to wanting someone who's strong and dominant to have kids with and someone who's reliable to settle down with.
- 1st point.
So you are saying that the "bad" decisions would lead to a more volatile state of being very happy but also very sad at other times? Surely they would cancel each other out and going for a continuous state of happy would be best? Also, from experiences I have found that people are only very happy with these decisions when a large amount of denial comes into play eg. I am going to pretend my bf is Mr Right when he is simply a douche. Thus it is the illusion that makes the person very happy. If the person thinks that is fine, then why not go shoot up on meth all the time as that would make you "happy" and is about as real as that relationship?


- 3rd point.
Surely though it would be best to go for someone who is both strong, dominant, AND reliable? It seems like girls who think like that are simply settling or are impatient and just need someone thus make the best out of a bad selection of guys.
 
Mar 7, 2012
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Matthew94 said:
Allthingsspectacular said:
This is small potatoes compared to the "Girls like jerks" myth.
I'm pretty sure it's not just a myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad
http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2008/06/the_dark_triad.html

There is evidence behind it.
Except for the fact that this is a myth.

It's confidence that girls love. Which just so happens to overlap with jerks often.
 
Mar 7, 2012
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Matthew94 said:
Do you have anything to back that up? You cannot just dismiss it out of hand with the only reason being "it's a myth".
Personal experience mostly.

Confidence is what drives girls wild. That's what they look for, and that's what they get in jerks.

This isn't something you can prove by saying "Most girls we tested date jerks, so they like jerks."

There are other factors involved. Confidence is the biggest one.
 
Mar 7, 2012
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Matthew94 said:
Though personal experience is valid evidence to the contrary I do not think it is sufficient to dismiss the "Dark Triad" that has been observed out of hand.
Well, I just find it incredibly difficult to believe knowing the women I known over the years.

I'm just gonna say it: Most "nice guys" I know are very uninteresting and feeble people. Not the type girls like. Which leads a lot of people to the unfortunate conclusion that girls hate nice guys.

Nooo, they just don't care for feeble and uninteresting people.

Anyway, back on topic, I thought the definition of the friend zone was less about getting into it(What the thread creator implies) and more of the lack of ability to get out.

The thing about girls is that first impressions are everything. And if a girl knows you too well before you're in a relationship, your chances are significantly decreased.
 

tobyornottoby

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blackrave said:
tobyornottoby said:
blackrave said:
Eventually I realized that she simply seeks someone to dump her emotions on
That's why status of "The Nice Guy" isn't worth it
If you're only doing it to pursue a relationship then yeah, no.
It's not worth it even if you pursue her happiness
Why not?
As I said, women want their friends as emotion-dumpsters, not as problem-solvers. That's how they relieve stress. It's a positive thing.
 

tobyornottoby

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Jimbo1212 said:
tobyornottoby said:
Not necessarily bad decisions if one decision leads to both the higher ups and lower downs. It becomes a choice then, depending on your preferences which you're more inclined towards.

Yeah that's true, one of the difficulties in this discussion is differentiating between nice guys and "Nice Guys".

At it's core, it goes back to wanting someone who's strong and dominant to have kids with and someone who's reliable to settle down with.
- 1st point.
So you are saying that the "bad" decisions would lead to a more volatile state of being very happy but also very sad at other times? Surely they would cancel each other out and going for a continuous state of happy would be best? Also, from experiences I have found that people are only very happy with these decisions when a large amount of denial comes into play eg. I am going to pretend my bf is Mr Right when he is simply a douche. Thus it is the illusion that makes the person very happy. If the person thinks that is fine, then why not go shoot up on meth all the time as that would make you "happy" and is about as real as that relationship?


- 3rd point.
Surely though it would be best to go for someone who is both strong, dominant, AND reliable? It seems like girls who think like that are simply settling or are impatient and just need someone thus make the best out of a bad selection of guys.
- Look at how movies or rollercoasters or a lot of other things are being made. The tempo varies wildly. There are slower parts, then there are adrenalin-spikes, etc. Most people prefer a non-continuous state.

Another way to look at it is that experiment where you put your 1 hand in a cold glass of water, and your other hand in a warm glass of water. Then after a while, you put your hands in a 3rd and a 4th glass, which are both lukewarm. The hand coming from the cold will tell your body that water is warmer than the other hand though.

Everything is relative. The only way we can measure and judge things is by comparison. Perhaps this is why people do not prefer the continuous state?

- Yes you are right which is why those girls will spout the "I just wish I'd find a nice guy". They want that 'bad boy' type they're attracted to to be more reliable. Of course it works the other way around, but a lot of nice guys simple aren't that dominant.
 

Jimbo1212

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tobyornottoby said:
Jimbo1212 said:
tobyornottoby said:
Not necessarily bad decisions if one decision leads to both the higher ups and lower downs. It becomes a choice then, depending on your preferences which you're more inclined towards.

Yeah that's true, one of the difficulties in this discussion is differentiating between nice guys and "Nice Guys".

At it's core, it goes back to wanting someone who's strong and dominant to have kids with and someone who's reliable to settle down with.
- 1st point.
So you are saying that the "bad" decisions would lead to a more volatile state of being very happy but also very sad at other times? Surely they would cancel each other out and going for a continuous state of happy would be best? Also, from experiences I have found that people are only very happy with these decisions when a large amount of denial comes into play eg. I am going to pretend my bf is Mr Right when he is simply a douche. Thus it is the illusion that makes the person very happy. If the person thinks that is fine, then why not go shoot up on meth all the time as that would make you "happy" and is about as real as that relationship?


- 3rd point.
Surely though it would be best to go for someone who is both strong, dominant, AND reliable? It seems like girls who think like that are simply settling or are impatient and just need someone thus make the best out of a bad selection of guys.
- Look at how movies or rollercoasters or a lot of other things are being made. The tempo varies wildly. There are slower parts, then there are adrenalin-spikes, etc. Most people prefer a non-continuous state.

Another way to look at it is that experiment where you put your 1 hand in a cold glass of water, and your other hand in a warm glass of water. Then after a while, you put your hands in a 3rd and a 4th glass, which are both lukewarm. The hand coming from the cold will tell your body that water is warmer than the other hand though.

Everything is relative. The only way we can measure and judge things is by comparison. Perhaps this is why people do not prefer the continuous state?

- Yes you are right which is why those girls will spout the "I just wish I'd find a nice guy". They want that 'bad boy' type they're attracted to to be more reliable. Of course it works the other way around, but a lot of nice guys simple aren't that dominant.
- I have to disagree here. You are claiming that people should stab themselves or self harm, only so that they are more grateful for when they are not hurting themselves. Why not just avoid the pain in the beginning?
Also, people only spend a bit of time on a roller-coaster. On the trip to the theme-park they would have travelled in a car which tries to have the smoothest ride possible.


- But by going for the bad guy, you are settling as you would prefer a guy to be a man and reliable?
 

Jzolr0708

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Mortai Gravesend said:
Jzolr0708 said:
but on the other hand, men dont owe women any sympathy for when they make relationship choices that are clearly stupid.
I don't remember seeing threads complaining about men not being sympathetic if their relationships are bad.
tobyornottoby said:
Jzolr0708 said:
Women dont owe men relationships at all, but on the other hand, men dont owe women any sympathy for when they make relationship choices that are clearly stupid.
Indeed. BUT if you really are her friend and a nice guy you give her that. Otherwise you're just a "Nice Guy".
Im more referring to the idea of the women who want a friend when they're in a relationship and something more when out of one. In addition, I personally don't believe you should discuss past relationships with anyone who isn't currently with you. What happened between the two of you is personal, and unless you are traumtatically effected (IE: Losing a spouse/fiance, or a partner of years), it isnt anyone elses buisiness
 

Danzavare

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I see nothing controversial about the first post. I don't really think there's anything that makes it so someone has to be with someone else. I also agree that it's not being nice if you're doing it and expecting to profit from it in some way.

This thread has 19 pages so this has probably already been posted, but on the off-chance it hasn't:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AngjEmgVZ8
 

Masterdebator

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Allthingsspectacular said:
There are other factors involved. Confidence is the biggest one.
I'd have to disagree. Being sociable and putting yourself in social situations is the most important.

One could logically be a quiet, but confident and self-assured individual who gets absolutely zero sexual attention since he/she does not put him or herself in more social situations.

To look at younger relationships, while I'd agree confidence is important in initially establishing any relationship (and this goes for both men and women), a 'persona' or 'guise' so to speak is much more responsive and attractive than actual confidence (which should not imply being outwardly confidence).

What I mean is that by being an individual who garners the most attention and has the most social notoriety will be sought after by the most members of the opposite sex, and real confidence plays little to no role in maintaining this social position. If anything, it's based entirely on a superficial social status within the High School environment.

The process involves broadcasting delusional and non-existent state of self-worth to all around you gathering a group of followers, one of which you can make into your sexual partner over time.

Younger girls look at the belligerent douchebag as "exciting", while the quiet and perhaps self-confident individual is "boring". The same goes for young boys, who treat the most popular girl in the school as the hottest, while the quiet and perhaps equally attractive girl (who doesn't wear a layer cake of make-up) in the back as dull and of no interest.

Now, for more mature relationships, I've come to believe we're all making this all needlessly complex.

Is confidence important? Sure. Is being a nice guy important? Sure.

But we're forgetting the one process that comes any verbal communication.

Forget the mouth. It's all about what we see in our eyes.

Fuck confident guys. Women want attractive men.

Fuck confident girls. Men want attractive women.

Yes, I'm making this perhaps all a bit too simple, but I feel someone should.

First impressions are everything in the beginning of a relationship, and they don't begin through someone being apparently "confident" or "nice". They begin through people looking at one another with their eyes and eyes alone, and judging one another based on their outward looks.

If he/she likes what they see, they'll generally make it obvious they're into you from the get go (ex. constant smiling (very important), giving compliments to your words/ physique, being of a happy state of being around you, etc. etc.).

If he/she doesn't care for what they see, the above will likely not happen initially.

As far as I'm concerned, all real relationships begin superficially.

I'm sure you could interpret what I'm about to say next as shallow, but I'm just being honest.

I have never been attracted to a girl or women in my life because of her being "nice".

Every single girl I've been attracted to has been initially based solely on their looks.

Sorry, but that's just what it is.

Now of course personalities plays a huge role later on in a relationship, as it's largely the foundation of two people eventually falling in love and actually staying together, however those two people are initially together for ONE reason.

They liked what they saw.

So my rather blunt relationship advice is if you find yourself liking someone who clearly doesn't return your feelings, don't get friend zoned. Just forget about them. If you can't have the relationship you want with them, then it simply doesn't make sense to take a consolation prize of being their "friend", when you will clearly want more out of the relationship. So it's best to just move on.

There are countless amounts of people out there who will fall for you, and you for them, and after you two hook up based off of your mutual attraction to one another, THEN you can show how much of a truly confident and nice guy/ girl you are, thus making the relationship preferably lasting long and being filled with lots of love.

The key is just putting yourself out there.

Be social. Meet new people. Get out there. Love won't come knockin' at your door.

But with this in mind, know that you should be yourself.

No one needs an individual putting up a shallow persona to lure people into their lives for sexual favors.

If you be yourself, and not trick or con anyone into falling for you, you'll feel doubly satisfied when someone comes into your life and loves you for exactly who YOU are.
 

Smooth Operator

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Allthingsspectacular said:
The thing about girls is that first impressions are everything. And if a girl knows you too well before you're in a relationship, your chances are significantly decreased.
First impressions only hold true for the time being, if you have something to excite them with later on there are no limits.
Second is the dispelled mystery, if people get to know you too well then you become an explained magic trick... not interesting at all, but this isn't just limited to friends it also happens all too often in relationships.

In all cases there is an exit door called if people are willing to change, but who really is.
 

blackrave

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tobyornottoby said:
blackrave said:
It's not worth it even if you pursue her happiness
Why not?
As I said, women want their friends as emotion-dumpsters, not as problem-solvers. That's how they relieve stress. It's a positive thing.
This is small time happiness, like feeding your kid ice cream instead of setting up his/her college fund :/
 

tobyornottoby

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blackrave said:
tobyornottoby said:
blackrave said:
It's not worth it even if you pursue her happiness
Why not?
As I said, women want their friends as emotion-dumpsters, not as problem-solvers. That's how they relieve stress. It's a positive thing.
This is small time happiness, like feeding your kid ice cream instead of setting up his/her college fund :/
Ice cream is important too. I don't want to be the kid who -never- got ice cream.
 

tobyornottoby

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Jimbo1212 said:
tobyornottoby said:
Jimbo1212 said:
tobyornottoby said:
Not necessarily bad decisions if one decision leads to both the higher ups and lower downs. It becomes a choice then, depending on your preferences which you're more inclined towards.

Yeah that's true, one of the difficulties in this discussion is differentiating between nice guys and "Nice Guys".

At it's core, it goes back to wanting someone who's strong and dominant to have kids with and someone who's reliable to settle down with.
- 1st point.
So you are saying that the "bad" decisions would lead to a more volatile state of being very happy but also very sad at other times? Surely they would cancel each other out and going for a continuous state of happy would be best? Also, from experiences I have found that people are only very happy with these decisions when a large amount of denial comes into play eg. I am going to pretend my bf is Mr Right when he is simply a douche. Thus it is the illusion that makes the person very happy. If the person thinks that is fine, then why not go shoot up on meth all the time as that would make you "happy" and is about as real as that relationship?


- 3rd point.
Surely though it would be best to go for someone who is both strong, dominant, AND reliable? It seems like girls who think like that are simply settling or are impatient and just need someone thus make the best out of a bad selection of guys.
- Look at how movies or rollercoasters or a lot of other things are being made. The tempo varies wildly. There are slower parts, then there are adrenalin-spikes, etc. Most people prefer a non-continuous state.

Another way to look at it is that experiment where you put your 1 hand in a cold glass of water, and your other hand in a warm glass of water. Then after a while, you put your hands in a 3rd and a 4th glass, which are both lukewarm. The hand coming from the cold will tell your body that water is warmer than the other hand though.

Everything is relative. The only way we can measure and judge things is by comparison. Perhaps this is why people do not prefer the continuous state?

- Yes you are right which is why those girls will spout the "I just wish I'd find a nice guy". They want that 'bad boy' type they're attracted to to be more reliable. Of course it works the other way around, but a lot of nice guys simple aren't that dominant.
- I have to disagree here. You are claiming that people should stab themselves or self harm, only so that they are more grateful for when they are not hurting themselves. Why not just avoid the pain in the beginning?
Also, people only spend a bit of time on a roller-coaster. On the trip to the theme-park they would have travelled in a car which tries to have the smoothest ride possible.


- But by going for the bad guy, you are settling as you would prefer a guy to be a man and reliable?
- Actually the part car-ride, part rollercoaster day itself shows how people like variance. I don't think many would sign up for either a 24 hour rollercoaster ride or 24 hour car ride.

I think most people have enough bad things and sadness in their lives that they don't need to stab themselves. But the principle is interesting, and could be applied to some things. For example, I know of a few guys who had a rich and sheltered upbringing, for whom I think it would be great for their development to experience for a while how it's different if you're not rich.

- Yes I'd say that's 'settling' but nothing in life is perfect.
 

tobyornottoby

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Jzolr0708 said:
Im more referring to the idea of the women who want a friend when they're in a relationship and something more when out of one. In addition, I personally don't believe you should discuss past relationships with anyone who isn't currently with you. What happened between the two of you is personal, and unless you are traumtatically effected (IE: Losing a spouse/fiance, or a partner of years), it isnt anyone elses buisiness
Women love to talk. They'll talk about a whole lot of things you might see as "nobody else's business"

What do you mean with something more?
 

Insanely Asinine

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tobyornottoby said:
blackrave said:
tobyornottoby said:
blackrave said:
It's not worth it even if you pursue her happiness
Why not?
As I said, women want their friends as emotion-dumpsters, not as problem-solvers. That's how they relieve stress. It's a positive thing.
This is small time happiness, like feeding your kid ice cream instead of setting up his/her college fund :/
Ice cream is important too. I don't want to be the kid who -never- got ice cream.
I rather you earn that ice-cream. If not, NO ICE-CREAM FOR YOU!!!!!