Captain America - Civil War - Which Side Are You On?

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Captain America - Civil War - Which Side Are You On?

Captain America: Civil War is one of the most thematically rich and action-packed Marvel movies yet.

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Super Cyborg

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I seem to be in the minority, at least from what I can tell, who actually liked the villain. Sure, not nearly as memorable personality wise, but for what the film was trying to do and how it goes down in the end I really liked him.

Action was definitely top notch, with many scenes just oozing with great stuff. I really felt the force from many of the fights, where it really felt like those hits did some damage. The ending I liked but I think that's going to split most people on this movie depending on their interpretation of it.
 

P-89 Scorpion

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Super Cyborg said:
I seem to be in the minority, at least from what I can tell, who actually liked the villain. Sure, not nearly as memorable personality wise, but for what the film was trying to do and how it goes down in the end I really liked him.

Action was definitely top notch, with many scenes just oozing with great stuff. I really felt the force from many of the fights, where it really felt like those hits did some damage. The ending I liked but I think that's going to split most people on this movie depending on their interpretation of it.

The plan of the villain was fine but my problem was wasting BARON ZEMO on it which seems to be a recurring problem of wasting the handful of good villains that Marvel has access to.

Don't get me started on the Russo's talking about cutting back on Thanos in the next two part Avenger films from an already brief 20 minutes tops (the interviews where they say this are on 'comic book resources' their search system is shit so good hunting).
 

Diablo1099_v1legacy

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Super Cyborg said:
I seem to be in the minority, at least from what I can tell, who actually liked the villain. Sure, not nearly as memorable personality wise, but for what the film was trying to do and how it goes down in the end I really liked him.
Don't worry, I totally agree with you. Zemo was a fucking amazing villain in this.
No superpowers, no real connections, just one man driven by revenge for what happened to his family and to do that, he outsmarts Ex-HYDRA, The Avengers, The UN, EVERYONE.
Hell, a bit of re-framing and he could actually be a protag :p

OT: Loved the movie myself when I saw it the other week with my brother and a few friends.
I agree that the pacing was kinda janky early on in the movie but once Bucky is busted from that UN Prison, the movie REALLY picks up.
Hell, I knew in advance that Iron Man and Captain America were going to live but that last fight scene actually had me thinking Disney would really actually kill one of them off! :eek:
And I totally want to see that Black Panther movie, dude is like African Batman, what's not to love? XD
 

Super Cyborg

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P-89 Scorpion said:
The plan of the villain was fine but my problem was wasting BARON ZEMO on it which seems to be a recurring problem of wasting the handful of good villains that Marvel has access to.

Don't get me started on the Russo's talking about cutting back on Thanos in the next two part Avenger films from an already brief 20 minutes tops (the interviews where they say this are on 'comic book resources' their search system is shit so good hunting).
Perhaps this is an advantage for me having never read the comics and being actively invested in certain villains/characters when they come up. Since you know about this person from the comics you probably had more anticipation, where I just had what they did to go off of.

Diablo1099 said:
Don't worry, I totally agree with you. Zemo was a fucking amazing villain in this.
No superpowers, no real connections, just one man driven by revenge for what happened to his family and to do that, he outsmarts Ex-HYDRA, The Avengers, The UN, EVERYONE.
Hell, a bit of re-framing and he could actually be a protag :p

OT: Loved the movie myself when I saw it the other week with my brother and a few friends.
I agree that the pacing was kinda janky early on in the movie but once Bucky is busted from that UN Prison, the movie REALLY picks up.
Hell, I knew in advance that Iron Man and Captain America were going to live but that last fight scene actually had me thinking Disney would really actually kill one of them off! :eek:
And I totally want to see that Black Panther movie, dude is like African Batman, what's not to love? XD
I just like how it wasn't some mastermind plan. Just adding a little more fuel to the already explosive barrel, then set it off. Instead of him being a huge focus it was just part of the larger picture. Also.

I really liked the end with Black Panther with mask off talking to Zemos. It was short but really hit home. Then seeing the very end of the fight between Cap and Stark hit everything home.
 

Diablo1099_v1legacy

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Super Cyborg said:
I really liked the end with Black Panther with mask off talking to Zemos. It was short but really hit home. Then seeing the very end of the fight between Cap and Stark hit everything home.
"The living are not done with you yet..."

"So i ask you, as both warrior and king, how long do you think you can save your friend from me?"

"Don't bother Ms. Romanov. I shall kill him myself."

Man, I didn't know shit about that guy before this movie and now I really want to know more.
That's one of the best things these movies have done, sparked interest in some of the lesser characters.
 

Super Cyborg

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Diablo1099 said:
Super Cyborg said:
I really liked the end with Black Panther with mask off talking to Zemos. It was short but really hit home. Then seeing the very end of the fight between Cap and Stark hit everything home.
"The living are not done with you yet..."

"So i ask you, as both warrior and king, how long do you think you can save your friend from me?"

"Don't bother Ms. Romanov. I shall kill him myself."

Man, I didn't know shit about that guy before this movie and now I really want to know more.
That's one of the best things these movies have done, sparked interest in some of the lesser characters.
Second quote was my favorite of all his. I'm definitely excited for his movie, which sucks because his movie is over two years from now. Spiderman was cool in the movie, but I'm less interested in him, so his should've waited for a bit longer. Then again, if the time means just making the movie better overall, then I can did that.

If his fighting style from this movie is anything to go off of, it's going to be fun to watch the action scenes in the movies. Agile and strong is quite deadly. Also that suit is just awesome looking.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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Villains that pop well are a huge issue with the MCU by way of licensing. Guys like Norman Osborne (up until recently) and Doctor Doom have been walled off by other studios owning the IPs and they're SO essential IMO to the universe as villains who aren't just limited to their respective arch-enemies. Doom and Goblin are guys (using them as an example) who can be a credible global threat, whether its politically or otherwise. Doom has mystical powers as well that make him mesh well with folks like Doc Strange, plus his intellect allows him to be up on the grander scale of things cosmic.
They're villains who can be defeated and yet still pose problems later on because they can rebuild and come back even stronger and more evil.
In speaking of villains, there still is the loose plot thread of the real Mandarin going after Tony Stark. Its been hinted at since Iron Man's first film and heavily implied he exists in the post Iron Man 3 vignette. If they do it right, we could have another major level villain... but honestly I hope that Marvel gets more rights back to some of the better baddies. Still they are doing quite well taking b-list and c-list villains and making them seem pretty cool.
 

Paragon Fury

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I saw Civil War last night, and I have to say;

I would be legitimately un-surprised if I heard that DC and WB execs committed suicide over the next few days because of how badly Marvel just shit on them again.
 

saxman234

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I agree with most of the review, except for

monotony of darker, more mature subject matter
I thought all the darker moments were excellently executed and in fact improved previous movies (such as movies that I didn't enjoy fully like AoU). Similar to the first scene of BvS flashing back to superman destroying metropolis, showing past mistakes and lives lost made the feud more well rounded. The jokes/laughs did help provide a nice range of tone/emotions compared tosome previous marvel movies which just kind of stayed in the middle action psudo comedy tone, but I would not call the darker/more mature parts monotonous.

Also I don't think the villain as a character was terrible, but the fact that he predicted everything that would happen perfectly was a bit too much. It was more bond villain or criminal mastermind knowing exactly what would happen at every step and it didn't really match his character in the movie.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Paragon Fury said:
I saw Civil War last night, and I have to say;

I would be legitimately un-surprised if I heard that DC and WB execs committed suicide over the next few days because of how badly Marvel just shit on them again.
But I want my Justice League with Zack Snyder action and visuals.
 

talker

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I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
 

Zontar

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talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Which is actually pretty ironic given how in the comics the morality of things was so laughably lopsided in Cap's favour that no one could take it seriously.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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Paragon Fury said:
I saw Civil War last night, and I have to say;

I would be legitimately un-surprised if I heard that DC and WB execs committed suicide over the next few days because of how badly Marvel just shit on them again.
I think they realized they need something to change, Affleck just got promoted to Executive Producer. He's a guy I could see giving DC's IPs proper love and care. However it might be too little too late. They may salvage it but it'll never be comparable to MCU's success.
 

Kingjackl

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Enjoyed the movie, but it's telling that I can barely remember anything pre-airport scene. Not that the prior stuff was bad, it's just the airport fight completely eclipses the rest of the movie. While most of the film takes on a serious thriller tone similar to Winter Soldier, that particular fight is full on Avengers-level over-indulgent spectacle. It doesn't help that Ant Man and Spider Man completely walk away with it despite having the least amount of investment in the conflict. And the final, final battle was amazingly tense.

It's a shame the movie holds off until the very end to reveal the villain's motivations, since it's a very well done monologue and elevates him to the top tier of Marvel villains (not that's saying much; it's really just him, Loki & Fisk).
 

irish286

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talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
They must have been telling his side horribly then. Giving any government that much power is just asking for tyranny.
 

fix-the-spade

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Super Cyborg said:
I seem to be in the minority, at least from what I can tell, who actually liked the villain. Sure, not nearly as memorable personality wise, but for what the film was trying to do and how it goes down in the end I really liked him.
I agree.

<spoiler=I actually found him and his motivation far more memorable and affecting than most MCU villains. Spoilers>

After what must be a dozen scenery chewing, ham supplying BAD GUYS it makes perfect sense for the guy who really, deeply and possibly irreversibly hurts The Avengers to be just some guy.

I also think that both his motivation and the reveal of it is excellent too. He's not a HYDRA agent, he's not pursuing some dream of glory or power, he's not even terribly evil by MCU standards. What he is is the embodiment of The Avenger's collateral damage, it makes him at least somewhat sympathetic.

I especially liked the phone message, the first time you hear it it makes you think there's more to Zemo than just 'bad guy,' The second time I heard it I figured out that his story was one of revenge.

I'm also glad he sees out the end of the movie. MCU Zemo is somewhat out of place in the very unsubtle world he inhabits, plusthere's space for him to be on different sides if/when the writers feel brave enough. Hopefully they don't kill him off screen like they did Strucker
 

fix-the-spade

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IOwnTheSpire said:
If people could stop taking potshots at BvS any day now, that'd be great, thanks.
That target's going to be on the range for years my friend, years and years.
 

CyanCat47_v1legacy

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Diablo1099 said:
Super Cyborg said:
I seem to be in the minority, at least from what I can tell, who actually liked the villain. Sure, not nearly as memorable personality wise, but for what the film was trying to do and how it goes down in the end I really liked him.
Don't worry, I totally agree with you. Zemo was a fucking amazing villain in this.
No superpowers, no real connections, just one man driven by revenge for what happened to his family and to do that, he outsmarts Ex-HYDRA, The Avengers, The UN, EVERYONE.
Hell, a bit of re-framing and he could actually be a protag :p

OT: Loved the movie myself when I saw it the other week with my brother and a few friends.
I agree that the pacing was kinda janky early on in the movie but once Bucky is busted from that UN Prison, the movie REALLY picks up.
Hell, I knew in advance that Iron Man and Captain America were going to live but that last fight scene actually had me thinking Disney would really actually kill one of them off! :eek:
And I totally want to see that Black Panther movie, dude is like African Batman, what's not to love? XD
personally i think zemo is both so mentally screwed up that for all we know he may decide to wear purple battle armor next time we se him. also baron means lord of a castle. maybe he will find more hydra facilities from the war to use against the avengers
 

fix-the-spade

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Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Still they are doing quite well taking b-list and c-list villains and making them seem pretty cool.
I'm quietly hoping that Red Skull will make a return some day. Partly because it's Hugo Weaving, and also because the possibility of a Red Skull with cosmic powers is too much fun to ignore.

After all, we didn't technically see him die...
 

irishda

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One of the funniest tropes to me in comic books and by extension, movies, is this annoying need to prove how equal most heroes are, despite all evidence to the contrary. The "Goku v. Superman" debate made endless, except turned even more pointless by making it less "Goku v. Superman" and having it be "Krillin v. Superman" or "Hawkeye v. Goku".

Civil War seemed especially egregious of this based on the trailers. While I haven't seen the movie yet, I will go off the trailer and what the other movies have established.

Team Iron Man consists of no less than three nigh indestructible robots/robot-armored heroes with the capacity for flight and a combined arsenal to rival most battleships. And one of these heroes is so pure and noble, that he alone is the only other hero worthy of wielding Mjolnir. Another is equipped with claws that can actually rend through Cap's vibranium shield. And another has superhuman reflexes, strength, and agility beyond even Captain and Bucky with the ability to bind and contain people. Three of these heroes are supposed to have a genius intellect, and a fourth is a goddamn super computer made "flesh". Oh, and a master assassin to round it all out.

Meanwhile, on Cap's side, we have two guys who are strong and fast. Not as strong and fast as Spiderman, but still. Then there's bow and arrow guy and hang glider man, who'll surely come in handy against the flying juggernauts. The only two with legitimate powers, a guy who can shrink and increase his strength and a woman with non-descript magic powers, are stuck on the ground, unless ants can now survive flamethrowers and lasers and propulsion blasts. And even Cap's strongest ally, Scarlet Witch, got her ass kicked by freaking Hawkeye of all people. Not to mention, Captain's side is almost exclusively ex-criminals and the less than brilliant of the Marvel world.

Even if they were genius, what hope do they have? To recap, the defensive capabilities of Iron Man's side include 3 people with almost invulnerable armor, a suit made out of Captain America's shield materials, and one of the most agile heroes in the Marvelverse. Their offensive capabilities include lasers, cannons, rockets, daggers, claws, webbing, and good ole fashioned metal fists. To counter all that, Captain America's side has, ahem, a shield that only covers part of one person's torso (seriously more people should just shoot his legs) and Winter Soldier's metal arm. Their offense includes bullets, gloved fists, and *gasp* arrows, none of which are dangerous to the 4 heroes sporting serious armor. Scarlet Witch is doing some seriously heavy lifting on this team based on whatever the hell the writer's decide her powers will be for this movie.

TL;DR: Unless Hawkeye's got another USB arrow he can shoot up Iron Man's ass, it'll probably be the funniest thing in the movie to see how they justify how Team America even has a chance against Team Stark.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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fix-the-spade said:
IOwnTheSpire said:
If people could stop taking potshots at BvS any day now, that'd be great, thanks.
That target's going to be on the range for years my friend, years and years.
I just hate the fact that this movie is gonna be #1 on everone's "Worst movie of 2016" list even though so far there are going to be even worse movies than this in the coming months (Star Trek Beyond and Ghostbusters)

I just hate that WB is gonna turn Suicide Squad into another Guardians of the Galaxy with the added reshoots for more humor. I just hope its only on Harley and Joker.
 

Laughing Man

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I'm quietly hoping that Red Skull will make a return some day. Partly because it's Hugo Weaving, and also because the possibility of a Red Skull with cosmic powers is too much fun to ignore.

After all, we didn't technically see him die...
No but what exactly is he returning too? Hydra is all but dead we saw the last of their core facilities getting taken out in the last episode of Agents Of Shield and their last leader was killed by Daisy and whatever is left of it i.e thier cash is under the control of Grant Ward (The Inhuman The HIVE) and the rest of his Inhuman buddies. I doubt Hyrda will be making a return more likely the Inhumans will take the place of Hydra as a bigger more focused enemy, would also tie in with the Inhumans movie coming in 2018.

Even if they were genius, what hope do they have? To recap, the defensive capabilities of Iron Man's side include 3 people with almost invulnerable armor, a suit made out of Captain America's shield materials, and one of the most agile heroes in the Marvelverse. Their offensive capabilities include lasers, cannons, rockets, daggers, claws, webbing, and good ole fashioned metal fists. To counter all that, Captain America's side has, ahem, a shield that only covers part of one person's torso (seriously more people should just shoot his legs) and Winter Soldier's metal arm. Their offense includes bullets, gloved fists, and *gasp* arrows, none of which are dangerous to the 4 heroes sporting serious armor. Scarlet Witch is doing some seriously heavy lifting on this team based on whatever the hell the writer's decide her powers will be for this movie.
Well end of the day Caps Team only pulls off the 'victory' because Vision ends up taking out one of his own guys and Black Widow flips sides at the last minute, they also give Antman a new ability which literally does allow him to lift heavy stuff. Then of course you have the final fight in which they have to systematically disable Ironman abilities, his ability to fly and his ability to accurately aim his weapons and then place him in a situation that isn;t favourable to Iron Man but is perfect for Bucky and Cap (close hand to hand combat) and somehow Ironman still pulls the victory out only to have it snatched away because end of the day it is a Cap movie so he has to win, even if it is a pretty weak victory. So yeah Antman and Scarlet Witch are pulling this team along but who cares the fight was still fucking epic.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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fix-the-spade said:
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Still they are doing quite well taking b-list and c-list villains and making them seem pretty cool.
I'm quietly hoping that Red Skull will make a return some day. Partly because it's Hugo Weaving, and also because the possibility of a Red Skull with cosmic powers is too much fun to ignore.

After all, we didn't technically see him die...
Its definitely a plot thread that was left fairly open. I mean more or less Loki fell out in much the same way during Thor, and he came back. Red Skull is one of those villains who shouldn't be killed off like that. Keep him under wraps and let him show up when least expected.
 

Aptspire

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IOwnTheSpire said:
If people could stop taking potshots at BvS any day now, that'd be great, thanks.
Hello, Mr. Snyder, how are you? Let's be frank here: Potshots always get taken, one way or another. If a movie brings about the displeasure of most of its audience, then far more potshots will be taken.

Also, in Civil War, the antagonist didn't mix his DNA with last movie's antagonist because 'reasons'...
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Zontar said:
talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Which is actually pretty ironic given how in the comics the morality of things was so laughably lopsided in Cap's favour that no one could take it seriously.
Until the end, when Cap realized he'd proven the other side's argument for them as the collateral damage of both sides' battle caused a city to burn around them and surrenders out of guilt. But sure, up until that point it did seem lopsided as all hell.

I enjoyed the movie quite a bit, especially seeing all the various characters we've come to know from across all of these movies having their personal struggles with having to fight their comrades, so it was a lot of fun to see all the various players come together and pull out all kinds of tricks against one another. Oddly, I felt like Vision and Scarlet Witch were pretty under-shown in the battle in favor of Spidey getting his turn at basically everyone.

The newcomers, Spider-Man and Black Panther, were honestly some of the more interesting parts of the movie for me, although for different reasons. I liked how they glossed over Spider-Man's backstory because who in the goddamn hell doesn't know Marvel's most marketable child's backstory at this point, and I liked how Black Panther got some pretty good character development before his own movie even came out. I'm definitely looking forward to both heroes' respective flicks.
 

Brian Tams

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Another point in Cap 3's favor; the war didn't end because Cap and Iron Man's mothers had the same name.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Caramel Frappe said:
I'm going to see the movie for sure, but here's what I think makes it stand over BvS

- Marvel gave superheroes their own movies, enough build up time so we could jump right into this movie.
- Marvel gave each superhero real agendas and why they're fighting instead of 'reasons'.
- Both superheroes are at equal power levels while Superman honestly would beat Batman anyday if he wanted to kill.
- Marvel doesn't allow dark & edgy themes get too dark & edgy in their movies.
- Marvel knows how to write a solid script.
- There's gray areas in this movie, while BvS clearly has a black & white approach to things.

Seriously I could go on, but after seeing why BvS failed, it's not hard to top that (but Captain America: Civil War was going to be awesome regardless of how BvS did.)
1.No commment
2.Batman thinks Superman is dangerous after the events of Man of Steel
3. Batman had the body armor and kryptonite gas pellets.
4. Marvel is never Dark and Edgy. And dark and edgy makes for better stories anyway, I mean look at Game of Thrones and Watchmen.
5. Debateable.
6. Only in this one movie, expect that grey area to vanish in the later movies. And Man of Steel had the grey area of Zod's motivations.:

 

Laughing Man

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2.Batman thinks Superman is dangerous after the events of Man of Steel
and goes in to an all out must kill Superman decision based on stupid reasons and then reinforced by dreams. Seriously his motivations are beyond dumb, he goes from nought to kill without at any point ever even trying or showing that he had tried to understand what Superman was doing during that fight.

Superman was fighting a guy who had just said he would happily kill EVERY human just to punish Superman, he had just blown up the massive planet killing machine but because some buildings got blown up that's reason enough for Batman to want to take Superman down?

The final fight scene in BvsS is almost the same as MOS, big bad guy wants to kill stuff and blow shit up, good guys fight him and lots of stuff gets blown up... but because Superman was fighting beside Batman it's all cool suddenly...

3. Batman had the body armor and kryptonite gas pellets.
Right at the start of that fight Sups lands, gets attacked by Batman and his supersonic projectors (by the way nice steal from Incredible Hulk with that one.) and his auto turrets Superman takes it and instead of just standing his ground and telling Batman why he is there he decides to give batman a bit of slap before telling him why he is there?

4. Marvel is never Dark and Edgy. And dark and edgy makes for better stories anyway, I mean look at Game of Thrones and Watchmen.
Yeah then you have Batman Vs Superman which kind of proves that Dark and Edgy doesn't always make for a better story

6. Only in this one movie, expect that grey area to vanish in the later movies. And Man of Steel had the grey area of Zod's motivations.
How was his motivation grey, he flat out tells you that he wants to rebuild Krypton on Earth and when that fails he turns in to generic I will kill everyone bad dude, his motivations weren't grey at all at no point did he question what he was doing, consider alternatives see anyone elses side or show any conflict on what he was doing, he had a plan and went at it. He was so obvious in what he was doing the movie actually has Superman say that he didn't trust him after hearing his initial Earth broadcast.
 

Bob_McMillan

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irishda said:
And one of these heroes is so pure and noble, that he alone is the only other hero worthy of wielding Mjolnir.
Actually, Mjolnir has a history of being picked up by androids. Unworthiness isnt a problem for them. I guess magic and science don't mix.

TL;DR: Unless Hawkeye's got another USB arrow he can shoot up Iron Man's ass, it'll probably be the funniest thing in the movie to see how they justify how Team America even has a chance against Team Stark.
Have you watched the movie, because Team Cap loses. Cap and Bucky only got away because Widow betrayed them and Vision fucked up and took out Warmachine. Also, Ant-man is a much bigger powerhouse than you think.

Laughing Man said:
How was his motivation grey, he flat out tells you that he wants to rebuild Krypton on Earth and when that fails he turns in to generic I will kill everyone bad dude, his motivations weren't grey at all at no point did he question what he was doing, consider alternatives see anyone elses side or show any conflict on what he was doing, he had a plan and went at it. He was so obvious in what he was doing the movie actually has Superman say that he didn't trust him after hearing his initial Earth broadcast.
The best moment of the HISHE series on YouTube was when Loki pointed out that Zod should have just terraformed Mars.
 

MCerberus

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Marvel kind of amazes me that they can do lighter character drama with their cast. Something DC really can't. This is "we bear the mental scars of life experience except our views on Kantian ethics made us make different decisions." compared to "arglblargl I'ma murder people"

And they made sure each team had someone who isn't grim-lord, lord of grimness so that the proceedings never lose their humanity. The resolution isn't
"our mom has the same first name"

Samtemdo8 said:
But I want my Justice League with Zack Snyder action and visuals.
We can talk about Snyder visuals when he tells post to stop smearing every frame with the 300 filter
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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MCerberus said:
Marvel kind of amazes me that they can do lighter character drama with their cast. Something DC really can't. This is "we bear the mental scars of life experience except our views on Kantian ethics made us make different decisions." compared to "arglblargl I'ma murder people"

And they made sure each team had someone who isn't grim-lord, lord of grimness so that the proceedings never lose their humanity. The resolution isn't
"our mom has the same first name"

Samtemdo8 said:
But I want my Justice League with Zack Snyder action and visuals.
We can talk about Snyder visuals when he tells post to stop smearing every frame with the 300 filter
Isn't the 300 filter the orange color palette?
 

MCerberus

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Samtemdo8 said:
MCerberus said:
Marvel kind of amazes me that they can do lighter character drama with their cast. Something DC really can't. This is "we bear the mental scars of life experience except our views on Kantian ethics made us make different decisions." compared to "arglblargl I'ma murder people"

And they made sure each team had someone who isn't grim-lord, lord of grimness so that the proceedings never lose their humanity. The resolution isn't
"our mom has the same first name"

Samtemdo8 said:
But I want my Justice League with Zack Snyder action and visuals.
We can talk about Snyder visuals when he tells post to stop smearing every frame with the 300 filter
Isn't the 300 filter the orange color palette?
needlessly dark when it doesn't have to be combined with that funky saturation
 

Overhead

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It's a great movie, people should go see it. I'm team Cap for sure.

irishda said:
Civil War seemed especially egregious of this based on the trailers. While I haven't seen the movie yet, I will go off the trailer and what the other movies have established.
You're so wrong.

Big spoilers.

When the airport fight happens, it isn't a fight to see who the victor is. Cap's side are just trying to take a quinjet to get where they need to go, Iron Man's side are trying to stop them and take down Cap. It's not just a big brawl to decide who's the best, Cap has a goal that is very different from taking down Iron Man. Cap's side is aware that they're going to be overpowered and all they really try to accomplish in the end is to buy Cap and Bucky some time to escape and get where they need to go, even if it means most of Cap's team are captured (which they are). Even then they only manage to do it because Black Widow switches sides and helps Cap and there's some accidental friendly fire on Iron Man's team
 

Gorrath

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talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Interesting that you say that because amongst my friends, no one would have picked Iron man's side. The whole premise that the Avenger's need to be reigned in because "they cause destruction" is a position without a pulse; it's like blaming firefighters for the collateral damage created by fires. If the accords were merely oversight, I would have definitely been on Stark's side but they wanted control over the Avengers both in what they would or would not be doing.

If the Avengers had all signed, I have no doubt their very next set of duties after capturing/killing Bucky would be mutant round-up duty. Have special powers and don't report it to the government? Enjoy your stay at our secret prison with no trial. So when they aren't trying to put everyone from Xavier's school in prison, I imagine they'd spend the rest of their time waiting for the U.N. security council to be useful for something other than international political gridlock. Want to send them to the U.S. because of concerns over mass wiretapping? U.S. vetoes. Want to send them to Serbia to stop Baron Von Killemall from murdering everyone? Russia vetoes. Want to send them to China to check on secret weapons testing? China vetoes.

What sense does it make for a tight group of fallible but unselfish and self-sacrificing people to turn their power over to a bunch of politicians with a thousand back-door agendas at worst and a ton of useless bickering at best? I mean SHIELD itself was an international agency under the command of just such a body and its greatest hits album includes such melodies as "The Future's So Bright I've Got to Wear Shades," and "Heil Hydra: A Love Story."
 

immortalfrieza

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Just got back from seeing the movie, and I thought it was pretty good. The only issues I had were
that the fighting between the Avengers was caused by as far as I remember Bucky being framed for blowing up the UN on the basis of the "evidence", a blurry photo that was barely one step above a picture of a man shaped Bonsai tree. The two sides fighting over the fact that Tony wanted revenge for Bucky killing his parents and Cap didn't believe that he should be held accountable for what he did under against his will as the thing that gets them fighting as it did with the movie's final fight between the three would have made much more sense.

The other issue I had was with Spider-Man. Based on his performance generally I'd say Tom Holland looks like he has the acting chops to play an effective Spider-Man and Peter Parker but I don't think the script nor Spider-Man's overall role in the movie for that matter was good and significant enough for him to reach that potential. Spider-Man isn't in the movie for long, his characterization in the movie boils down to an overly excited Avengers fanboy with little if anything else to his character, has no reason to be involved in the conflict besides Tony essentially blackmailing him into it, and he doesn't even quip that much and isn't funny when he does, not even in the typical groan inducing "so incredibly lame it's funny" way that Spider-Man's quipping usually is. I'll wait until Spider-Man gets a movie of his own to judge Holland's ability to act as either Peter Parker or Spider-Man when he has the screen time to really show that instead of what we've got here that amounts to a glorified cameo.

Gorrath said:
talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Interesting that you say that because amongst my friends, no one would have picked Iron man's side. The whole premise that the Avenger's need to be reigned in because "they cause destruction" is a position without a pulse; it's like blaming firefighters for the collateral damage created by fires. If the accords were merely oversight, I would have definitely been on Stark's side but they wanted control over the Avengers both in what they would or would not be doing.

If the Avengers had all signed, I have no doubt their very next set of duties after capturing/killing Bucky would be mutant round-up duty. Have special powers and don't report it to the government? Enjoy your stay at our secret prison with no trial. So when they aren't trying to put everyone from Xavier's school in prison, I imagine they'd spend the rest of their time waiting for the U.N. security council to be useful for something other than international political gridlock. Want to send them to the U.S. because of concerns over mass wiretapping? U.S. vetoes. Want to send them to Serbia to stop Baron Von Killemall from murdering everyone? Russia vetoes. Want to send them to China to check on secret weapons testing? China vetoes.

What sense does it make for a tight group of fallible but unselfish and self-sacrificing people to turn their power over to a bunch of politicians with a thousand back-door agendas at worst and a ton of useless bickering at best? I mean SHIELD itself was an international agency under the command of just such a body and its greatest hits album includes such melodies as "The Future's So Bright I've Got to Wear Shades," and "Heil Hydra: A Love Story."
Exactly. The Avengers aren't cops, firefighter, military, or anything like that which have the time and means to be directed and their power checked, they are an elite group of Superheroes that are brought in when it hits the fan so badly that a few people dying as collateral damage is nothing compared to what would happen if they didn't do something and whom are the only ones able to do something, just like the situation the movie opens with. The fact that the Avengers are there means they've hit a point similar to how and why people in monster movies decide bringing in Godzilla to fight the current monster is a better idea than just leaving the monster there or continuously making futile attempts to get rid of it, bringing in the Avengers isn't something done because another less likely to be harmful response is a realistic option. The Avengers don't have the time to deal with dozens of politicians spending weeks arguing if they should have the Avengers do something and/or what all the time, nor can they or should they have to deal with each of those politicians having reason besides "save as many people as humanly or inhumanly possible" as their motivation behind allowing the Avengers to go superheroing, and that's if they don't just use them as their personal hit squad of ignorant assassins never told what they need to in order to realize what they are doing is bad. Tony's position lost all weight when it's made clear that the registration is not just about oversight but about giving the U.N. the legal power to precisely control when, where, or even if the Avengers can do ANYTHING. If anyone should have that kind of control over the Avengers it should be a truly neutral party that unlike something like the U.N. has no personal stake in anything the Avengers do, could do, nor have been directly harmed or benefited from anything they have done except in the most broad sense that they have saved the whole planet, and should have at least one like party as a backup to replace them if that situation changes so that they are no longer neutral.
 

Kameburger

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Super Cyborg said:
I seem to be in the minority, at least from what I can tell, who actually liked the villain. Sure, not nearly as memorable personality wise, but for what the film was trying to do and how it goes down in the end I really liked him.

Action was definitely top notch, with many scenes just oozing with great stuff. I really felt the force from many of the fights, where it really felt like those hits did some damage. The ending I liked but I think that's going to split most people on this movie depending on their interpretation of it.
I honestly am with you here, I think having him operate the way he did was absolutely perfect. Was it the comic character? No but then again who is really attached to Zemo? He is one of the few characters that came up with an intelligent plan to take out his enemies, never didn't bother having it be theatrical, and didn't just chase pulling the trigger himself. He doesn't try to take out anybody out in a fist fight, he simply outsmarts them. In a way that makes him one of the more interesting marvel villains. Hell even the Joker in Dark Knight fights Batman hand to hand at points when he really didn't have to. Zemo only pushes the plot when he needs to. No big bombastic speeches, no needlessly flaunting his plan. I honestly liked the way they played this.
 

The Enquirer

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Diablo1099 said:
Super Cyborg said:
I really liked the end with Black Panther with mask off talking to Zemos. It was short but really hit home. Then seeing the very end of the fight between Cap and Stark hit everything home.
"The living are not done with you yet..."

"So i ask you, as both warrior and king, how long do you think you can save your friend from me?"

"Don't bother Ms. Romanov. I shall kill him myself."

Man, I didn't know shit about that guy before this movie and now I really want to know more.
That's one of the best things these movies have done, sparked interest in some of the lesser characters.
I'd check out Christopher Priest's run at him. Also watch Earth's Mightiest Hero's. That's actually a really good version of the character.
 

Darth_Payn

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There were more jokes in this movie than I expected for this kind of subject matter. Like when Falcon and Bucky are in Cap's getaway car (Move your seat up) and their fight with Spider-Man ("You couldn't do that before?" "I hate you."). Speaking of Spidey, he was awesome! Funny, relatable, determined, smart, and then there's Aunt May.
Didn't expect them to cast
Marissa Tomei
for that role, but they did!
CyanCat47 said:
Diablo1099 said:
Super Cyborg said:
I seem to be in the minority, at least from what I can tell, who actually liked the villain. Sure, not nearly as memorable personality wise, but for what the film was trying to do and how it goes down in the end I really liked him.
Don't worry, I totally agree with you. Zemo was a fucking amazing villain in this.
No superpowers, no real connections, just one man driven by revenge for what happened to his family and to do that, he outsmarts Ex-HYDRA, The Avengers, The UN, EVERYONE.
Hell, a bit of re-framing and he could actually be a protag :p

OT: Loved the movie myself when I saw it the other week with my brother and a few friends.
I agree that the pacing was kinda janky early on in the movie but once Bucky is busted from that UN Prison, the movie REALLY picks up.
Hell, I knew in advance that Iron Man and Captain America were going to live but that last fight scene actually had me thinking Disney would really actually kill one of them off! :eek:
And I totally want to see that Black Panther movie, dude is like African Batman, what's not to love? XD
personally i think zemo is both so mentally screwed up that for all we know he may decide to wear purple battle armor next time we se him. also baron means lord of a castle. maybe he will find more hydra facilities from the war to use against the avengers
My theory: he later discovers he's the heir to a fortune from the House of Zemo, whose last Baron was Heinrich. That would explain why he still had the German name Helmut. I would have liked to see an old photo of him wearing a balaclava, as a shout out to the comics version, but oh well.
Another plot thread left dangling:
What about Sharon Carter, after helping Cap and Bucky right under the Joint Task Force's noses?
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
fix-the-spade said:
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Still they are doing quite well taking b-list and c-list villains and making them seem pretty cool.
I'm quietly hoping that Red Skull will make a return some day. Partly because it's Hugo Weaving, and also because the possibility of a Red Skull with cosmic powers is too much fun to ignore.

After all, we didn't technically see him die...
Its definitely a plot thread that was left fairly open. I mean more or less Loki fell out in much the same way during Thor, and he came back. Red Skull is one of those villains who shouldn't be killed off like that. Keep him under wraps and let him show up when least expected.
After getting sucked into that hole in space opened by the Tesseract, he just might be zipping around the universe, and ended up a minion of Thanos, waiting for his return for vengeance. But I'm just brain-storming here.
 

Souplex

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I was with it till the final conflict.
If Steve had stopped and said "Bucky's just as much a victim of Hydra as your parents." I would have been fine, even if Tony declared that he didn't care.
The fact that his lack of responsibility for his actions wasn't once acknowledged in that fight made it feel forced. Up until that fight, everyone had explained their reasoning for their decisions, and nobody felt stupid.
 

The Enquirer

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Souplex said:
I was with it till the final conflict.
If Steve had stopped and said "Bucky's just as much a victim of Hydra as your parents." I would have been fine, even if Tony declared that he didn't care.
The fact that his lack of responsibility for his actions wasn't once acknowledged in that fight made it feel forced. Up until that fight, everyone had explained their reasoning for their decisions, and nobody felt stupid.
I think that was actually not a bad choice.
What was essentially his family, something he has spent years building, was crumbling. His best friend paralyzed by someone else on his team, Widow went double agent on him again, then even after all said and done, when he took them into custody, they only insulted him and insulted his family. I'm certain I'm missing some things in there too but Cap said it best,"it's been a long day" and that's the best way to describe Tony at the end of it all.

Though I thought there was some mention of it not being Bucky's fault in that scene.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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Darth_Payn said:
After getting sucked into that hole in space opened by the Tesseract, he just might be zipping around the universe, and ended up a minion of Thanos, waiting for his return for vengeance. But I'm just brain-storming here.
Teaming with Thanos is an interesting idea, getting power enough to come back and take out Cap, which lets Evans exit the MCU and gives way for Captain Bucky to take over... I like the idea of the first Infinity Gauntlet conflict to end with a real down note, which to me would mean taking out the heart of the Avengers. Cap. And who better to take him down than Red Skull? AFAIK, Hugo Weaving wouldn't return but there's plenty of folks out there who can be chosen as the recast. Just hand-wave it with a little cosmic powers change people retcons and boom! Red Skull 2.0.
 

xaszatm

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Gorrath said:
talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Interesting that you say that because amongst my friends, no one would have picked Iron man's side. The whole premise that the Avenger's need to be reigned in because "they cause destruction" is a position without a pulse; it's like blaming firefighters for the collateral damage created by fires. If the accords were merely oversight, I would have definitely been on Stark's side but they wanted control over the Avengers both in what they would or would not be doing.

If the Avengers had all signed, I have no doubt their very next set of duties after capturing/killing Bucky would be mutant round-up duty. Have special powers and don't report it to the government? Enjoy your stay at our secret prison with no trial. So when they aren't trying to put everyone from Xavier's school in prison, I imagine they'd spend the rest of their time waiting for the U.N. security council to be useful for something other than international political gridlock. Want to send them to the U.S. because of concerns over mass wiretapping? U.S. vetoes. Want to send them to Serbia to stop Baron Von Killemall from murdering everyone? Russia vetoes. Want to send them to China to check on secret weapons testing? China vetoes.

What sense does it make for a tight group of fallible but unselfish and self-sacrificing people to turn their power over to a bunch of politicians with a thousand back-door agendas at worst and a ton of useless bickering at best? I mean SHIELD itself was an international agency under the command of just such a body and its greatest hits album includes such melodies as "The Future's So Bright I've Got to Wear Shades," and "Heil Hydra: A Love Story."
While I do agree that Stark's weakness was that it gave far too much power to authority, Steve's gives no respect to authority whatsoever. And that's kind of what I like about the movie, both characters are ultimately wrong, but both come from realistic emotional and logical reasons pushed to extreme because they both are emotionally compromised.

But to counter your claim, what right does this group of people have to fight other people's battles? What right do they have to hunt, even kill others with no warning to authorities or even medical services until after the job? Consider how the 117 countries feel about the Avengers. Yes, they have saved the world, but they also have caused destruction on an uncountable scale. And four of them are directly or indirectly responsibility for causing destruction and death of innocents (Hulk, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver). And worse, none have been tried for their recent crimes. Hulk undoubtedly killed people in his rage and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver directly helped Ultron who killed. To the average citizen, the Avengers seems to act like a mallet trying to kill a fly in a china shop. Why shouldn't the Avengers be held accountable for their actions? Why shouldn't oversight be a requirement for them? What gives them the right to come into a country and endanger the lives of innocents then leave without dealing with the aftermath? Where's the responsibility Captain America is so proud about? For all his talk, he is acting no different than America did in Iraq, Korea, and Vietnam. And the world just will not tolerate such actions.
 

Bat Vader

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Two sides. Scarlet Witch on one side while Black Widow is on the other side.
 

jklinders

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Gorrath said:
talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Interesting that you say that because amongst my friends, no one would have picked Iron man's side. The whole premise that the Avenger's need to be reigned in because "they cause destruction" is a position without a pulse; it's like blaming firefighters for the collateral damage created by fires. If the accords were merely oversight, I would have definitely been on Stark's side but they wanted control over the Avengers both in what they would or would not be doing.

If the Avengers had all signed, I have no doubt their very next set of duties after capturing/killing Bucky would be mutant round-up duty. Have special powers and don't report it to the government? Enjoy your stay at our secret prison with no trial. So when they aren't trying to put everyone from Xavier's school in prison, I imagine they'd spend the rest of their time waiting for the U.N. security council to be useful for something other than international political gridlock. Want to send them to the U.S. because of concerns over mass wiretapping? U.S. vetoes. Want to send them to Serbia to stop Baron Von Killemall from murdering everyone? Russia vetoes. Want to send them to China to check on secret weapons testing? China vetoes.

What sense does it make for a tight group of fallible but unselfish and self-sacrificing people to turn their power over to a bunch of politicians with a thousand back-door agendas at worst and a ton of useless bickering at best? I mean SHIELD itself was an international agency under the command of just such a body and its greatest hits album includes such melodies as "The Future's So Bright I've Got to Wear Shades," and "Heil Hydra: A Love Story."
Couldn't have said it better myself. Hell, the someone on the pro registration side was even smugly arrogant about how there would be no trial or lawyer when some of Cap's team were collared. I would argue that the registration accord was completely in line with hydra needed to win at their next plot after Cap (against the very institutions this accord were backed by) stopped their mass murder campaign in Winter Soldier. Put a collar on all the heroes, hobble them when you set up your next plot through political channels then strike.

being pro registration in this continuity is being on the wrong side because in this continuity the power structures that would be used to enforce it have already proven to be very fallible. I understand where Tony is coming from, but more than signing that accord he needs to get his narcissistic ass to a shrink and get some help for the PTSD he has been suffering from since at least The Avengers, and maybe as far back as Iron Man 1.
 

The Philistine

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immortalfrieza said:
Just got back from seeing the movie, and I thought it was pretty good. The only issues I had were
that the fighting between the Avengers was caused by as far as I remember Bucky being framed for blowing up the UN on the basis of the "evidence", a blurry photo that was barely one step above a picture of a man shaped Bonsai tree. The two sides fighting over the fact that Tony wanted revenge for Bucky killing his parents and Cap didn't believe that he should be held accountable for what he did under against his will as the thing that gets them fighting as it did with the movie's final fight between the three would have made much more sense.
That bugged me as well. The villains plans were just a long series of Batman Gambits.
First in assuming the Avengers would split due to the UN resolution. Then that only a small handful of them would actually follow him. And that Tony would go full on murder mode upon finding out who killed his parents. If any of those things had not gone exactly as they had in the movie, he wouldn't have gotten the conflict he wanted.

The other thing that bugs me is how Marvel is making a habit of building up minor villains in one movie, only to kill them off in the next.
Zola from The First Avenger to Winter Soldier, Crossbones from Winter Soldier to Civil War.
 

Gorrath

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xaszatm said:
While I do agree that Stark's weakness was that it gave far too much power to authority, Steve's gives no respect to authority whatsoever. And that's kind of what I like about the movie, both characters are ultimately wrong, but both come from realistic emotional and logical reasons pushed to extreme because they both are emotionally compromised.
I wouldn't agree that Steve's position was anti-authority, it was just anti-control. Heck, he even agrees to sign until he finds out that
Stark has literally had Vision keeping Wanda a prisoner in her own home.
And don't get me wrong, I LOVED the movie. IMO it's the best Marvel movie to date! I can see why everyone picked the sides that they did and switched sides at parts too, so I'm not saying Tony's position makes no sense when it comes to the characters involved, I just can't possibly agree with Stark's position.


But to counter your claim, what right does this group of people have to fight other people's battles? What right do they have to hunt, even kill others with no warning to authorities or even medical services until after the job? Consider how the 117 countries feel about the Avengers. Yes, they have saved the world, but they also have caused destruction on an uncountable scale.
They have a right to act because they have a responsibility to act. If they are the only ones in a position to do what needs to be done to stop the destruction of the world or huge groups of people then acting is the only moral and ethical thing to do. This is a basic moral premise on which societies are built; those with power have a responsibility to protect those without it. Now platitudes like that lack nuance, to be sure, and any individual intervention must be considered on its own merits but that premise is the backbone of all hero stories; they act because they must and they must because no one else can. As for them "causing destruction" that is, again, like blaming fire fighters for fires. Yes the actions they take in battle directly lead to the deaths of people but that is an unavoidable consequence of battle on the scale they have to fight it. The closest you can really get to something being their fault is Ultron.

And four of them are directly or indirectly responsibility for causing destruction and death of innocents (Hulk, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver). And worse, none have been tried for their recent crimes. Hulk undoubtedly killed people in his rage and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver directly helped Ultron who killed.
The only time I recall Hulk killing anyone is during the battle in NY, which was not intentional. As to Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, well, hard to put a corpse on trail as far as the latter and the former turned on Ultron as soon as she knew what he was doing. While it can be argued that she should have been held responsible for anyone she killed or helped Ultron kill before she found out his master plan, and I would agree with that argument, I don't know that there's anyone in any government seeking to punish her for those acts, so it's a moot point. If someone did want to press charges against her for that, I quite agree that she'd need to stand trial. Basic utilitarian morality applies here as it does to all such no-win scenarios; you try and preserve the maximum number of lives the best way you can think of at the time of the crisis. If you've done that, you've met your moral obligations in that situation.

To the average citizen, the Avengers seems to act like a mallet trying to kill a fly in a china shop. Why shouldn't the Avengers be held accountable for their actions? Why shouldn't oversight be a requirement for them? What gives them the right to come into a country and endanger the lives of innocents then leave without dealing with the aftermath? Where's the responsibility Captain America is so proud about? For all his talk, he is acting no different than America did in Iraq, Korea, and Vietnam. And the world just will not tolerate such actions.
If that's what the average citizen thinks then they are none too bright. The fly in the china shop is Hydra, or Ultron or an advanced alien civilization wanting to enslave or kill the whole population of Earth. If any of those things are flies, then what the heck does a real threat look like? If the Avengers are bull in the china shop, why was the world council's answer to the crisis to nuke NY city?! What would they have done to stop Ultron when they couldn't even stop Hydra from taking over their own SHIELD organization? The world can go ahead and not tolerate it, just up until Thanos shows up and murders everyone on the planet. Then there won't be anyone left to complain about collateral damage.

You'll not get a lot of pull with me on the war comparisons; I served in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq with the 101st Airborne Division and am intimately aware of the sorts of situations the Avengers find themselves in because of it.

Fun intellectual exercise though, I'm eager to read your response!
 

xaszatm

That Voice in Your Head
Sep 4, 2010
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Gorrath said:
xaszatm said:
While I do agree that Stark's weakness was that it gave far too much power to authority, Steve's gives no respect to authority whatsoever. And that's kind of what I like about the movie, both characters are ultimately wrong, but both come from realistic emotional and logical reasons pushed to extreme because they both are emotionally compromised.
I wouldn't agree that Steve's position was anti-authority, it was just anti-control. Heck, he even agrees to sign until he finds out that
Stark has literally had Vision keeping Wanda a prisoner in her own home.
And don't get me wrong, I LOVED the movie. IMO it's the best Marvel movie to date! I can see why everyone picked the sides that they did and switched sides at parts too, so I'm not saying Tony's position makes no sense when it comes to the characters involved, I just can't possibly agree with Stark's position.
Oh yeah, I think Stark is wrong as well. Stark ultimately gives up too much power and control because he is too emotionally compromised to think clearly. To be honest, everyone in this movie is. I mean, Stark is trusting General "Thunderbolt" Ross to not be a power-hungry nut to ease his guilty conscious when Stark has known how ruthless Ross is since The Incredible Hulk. I think there was a solution, while not easy, would have helped bypass a lot of drama and conflict in the film. Therefore, it couldn't happen because...then we'd have no Civil War and the movie would just be Rogers, Wilson, and Bucky riding around Europe in a small VV Bug.

...actually I'd probably still see that movie.


But to counter your claim, what right does this group of people have to fight other people's battles? What right do they have to hunt, even kill others with no warning to authorities or even medical services until after the job? Consider how the 117 countries feel about the Avengers. Yes, they have saved the world, but they also have caused destruction on an uncountable scale.
They have a right to act because they have a responsibility to act. If they are the only ones in a position to do what needs to be done to stop the destruction of the world or huge groups of people then acting is the only moral and ethical thing to do. This is a basic moral premise on which societies are built; those with power have a responsibility to protect those without it. Now platitudes like that lack nuance, to be sure, and any individual intervention must be considered on its own merits but that premise is the backbone of all hero stories; they act because they must and they must because no one else can. As for them "causing destruction" that is, again, like blaming fire fighters for fires. Yes the actions they take in battle directly lead to the deaths of people but that is an unavoidable consequence of battle on the scale they have to fight it. The closest you can really get to something being their fault is Ultron.

And four of them are directly or indirectly responsibility for causing destruction and death of innocents (Hulk, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver). And worse, none have been tried for their recent crimes. Hulk undoubtedly killed people in his rage and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver directly helped Ultron who killed.
The only time I recall Hulk killing anyone is during the battle in NY, which was not intentional. As to Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, well, hard to put a corpse on trail as far as the latter and the former turned on Ultron as soon as she knew what he was doing. While it can be argued that she should have been held responsible for anyone she killed or helped Ultron kill before she found out his master plan, and I would agree with that argument, I don't know that there's anyone in any government seeking to punish her for those acts, so it's a moot point. If someone did want to press charges against her for that, I quite agree that she'd need to stand trial. Basic utilitarian morality applies here as it does to all such no-win scenarios; you try and preserve the maximum number of lives the best way you can think of at the time of the crisis. If you've done that, you've met your moral obligations in that situation.
Well, the Hulk probably killed people during his mind-controlled rage Scarlet Witch did to him. And Thor directly states "The gates of Hel are filled with the screams of his victims," then tries to change it after remembering that Banner doesn't want to kill even if the enemy is HYDRA. And by responsibility I really meant closure. There are dead and destruction in the wake of the heroics of the Avengers. Even Scarlet Witch or Banner apologizing would do a lot to ease the emotional state of mind people might have against the Avengers (wrongly I might add). I mean, think about the motivation for the villain in this movie:

Zemo is driven by vengeance. He lost everyone important to him during the battle and looked for someone to blame. Now, logically The Avengers were trying to save everyone and really shouldn't be held accountable for the deaths here. But emotionally, that will not cut it. Zemo needs to take his emotions out on something otherwise he'll go insane. And while not guaranteed to ease his emotional pain, being given the facts (not all of it mind, but enough to understand the situation clearer) would have been healthier and possibly avoided the whole plot to begin with. But then we'd have no movie. But this lack of closure is kind of why I disagree with your statement that they have met their moral obligation. The Avenges do still have one moral obligation they haven't been filling: closure.

To the average citizen, the Avengers seems to act like a mallet trying to kill a fly in a china shop. Why shouldn't the Avengers be held accountable for their actions? Why shouldn't oversight be a requirement for them? What gives them the right to come into a country and endanger the lives of innocents then leave without dealing with the aftermath? Where's the responsibility Captain America is so proud about? For all his talk, he is acting no different than America did in Iraq, Korea, and Vietnam. And the world just will not tolerate such actions.
If that's what the average citizen thinks then they are none too bright. The fly in the china shop is Hydra, or Ultron or an advanced alien civilization wanting to enslave or kill the whole population of Earth. If any of those things are flies, then what the heck does a real threat look like? If the Avengers are bull in the china shop, why was the world council's answer to the crisis to nuke NY city?! What would they have done to stop Ultron when they couldn't even stop Hydra from taking over their own SHIELD organization? The world can go ahead and not tolerate it, just up until Thanos shows up and murders everyone on the planet. Then there won't be anyone left to complain about collateral damage.

You'll not get a lot of pull with me on the war comparisons; I served in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq with the 101st Airborne Division and am intimately aware of the sorts of situations the Avengers find themselves in because of it.

Fun intellectual exercise though, I'm eager to read your response!
Oh, I agree completely that the average citizen isn't thinking clearly. But that's kind of the point. The average citizens in this movie has been emotionally compromised. I mean, a good example of this is the woman Stark meets after his MIT speech. The woman blames the Avengers for the death of his son. Now, logically, this makes zero sense. The Avengers in Age of Ultron are doing their very best to save every citizen and did save as many people as possible. But think about it from her point of view. All she knows is her son was alive, then he wasn't. He died perhaps pointlessly. Emotionally, this woman is controlled by grief which colors her viewpoint. She is looking for someone to blame and without closure, she has picked The Avengers as her target. I mean consider the following spoiler.

Iron Man immediately tries to kill Bucky after learning that he, under mind control, killed his parents. He's incredibly emotionally destroyed and can only think of vengeance and betrayal. He even says "I don't care. He killed my mom." Tony Stark is running on emotion at this point from many factors but especially from the lack of closure he has over his dead parents.

And the lack of closure is a big theme in the movie. It drives the character arc of at least three characters in the movie and is the ultimate basis for the Solvakia Accords. The Accords are a solution to give this countries and its citizens some measure of control after being in multiple situations where they had none. Now, this is not to say the Accords are a good plan because as Steve said "People have agendas." Getting what's essentially (and literally in one case) a god as a tool can and will corrupt people. Ultimately, the Accords attempt to solve the problem by attacking its biggest target rather than fixing its core: closure.

What the Avengers should have been doing since perhaps The Winter Soldier is work with the United Nations and not for them. The Avengers should have the sovereignty to operate where there is danger. But they should have the support to help fix the financial, social, and emotional cost of their fights. They should have their own set of emergency services like EMTs, field surgeons, and firefighters ready to help the Avengers deal with the aftermath. The Avengers should be willing to help pay for the damages caused by their actions (I mean, Tony probably has enough money at this point to buy the world 10 times over since his official GDP is "more than enough"). They also need to hold some kind of service to provide closure. Not only would this ease the minds of any victim's close one, it would also help heal the incredibly guilty consciences Tony Stark, Bucky Barnes and Scarlet Witch have. This solution helps deal with the personal problems of most in this movie. It provides support to countries so they don't feel like they have no control, it gives Tony a way to healthily deal with his guilty conscience, and still lives sovereignty in the hand so the Avengers. Now, this won't fix all the problems because, once again, people can be very easily emotionally manipulated. But this solution does help heal the problems many of the characters face.

But, if these people were emotionally healthy enough where they wouldn't want to fight each other, we wouldn't have a Civil War movie and the ultimate road trip movie instead. :p
 

bartholen_v1legacy

A dyslexic man walks into a bra.
Jan 24, 2009
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I'm just gonna say it: I found it hard to care anymore in this movie. Which is a goddamn shame, because action wise this gives all other movies on the market a run for their money. Everything from the choreography to the sound was pitch perfect. I should have been jumping in my seat during the action scenes. But at this point all sense of danger or urgency has been lost. We know the characters will make it out alive. So all the awesome action held all the emotional weight and tension of me banging my action figures together as a kid. And after enough time it all just becomes white noise in the whirlpool of Eternal Status Quo. 6/10.
 

Laughing Man

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I'm just gonna say it: I found it hard to care anymore in this movie. Which is a goddamn shame, because action wise this gives all other movies on the market a run for their money. Everything from the choreography to the sound was pitch perfect. I should have been jumping in my seat during the action scenes. But at this point all sense of danger or urgency has been lost. We know the characters will make it out alive. So all the awesome action held all the emotional weight and tension of me banging my action figures together as a kid. And after enough time it all just becomes white noise in the whirlpool of Eternal Status Quo. 6/10.
You're kidding right? You were expecting people to die in this one? Right up until the very last scene the only reason they were fighting each other was because of a minor ideological difference certainly nothing to the degree where you would be killing a former team mate or friend (in fact Black Widow and Hawkeye spelled it out perfectly when they where fighting each other and Back Widow asks, we're still friends right?).

The final fight scene was the only one in which the reason for the fight elevated it to the point where the characters would kill try and kill each other (well one character specifically.)

The Avengers should be willing to help pay for the damages caused by their actions
Two words

STARK FOUNDATION, it's mentioned right after the Hulk and Hulkbuster smash the place up in Age Of Ultron, The Avengers ALREADY do help pay for the destruction.
 

Lunar Templar

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What team am I on?

pff, silly question

Team 'Nep-nep' of course :p


Samtemdo8 said:
2.Batman thinks Superman is dangerous after the events of Man of Steel
4. Marvel is never Dark and Edgy. And dark and edgy makes for better stories anyway, I mean look at Game of Thrones and Watchmen.
2: Attacking some one because you think they could be a threat is how you breed tragedy. Not to mention the resolution to that was stupid as fucking hell.

4: I only take issue with this in regards to how it apply's to Marvel and DC's movies. Dark and Edgy can make for good story's. But Marvel seems mostly uninterested in going there (and why should they when what they got going now is working just fine) and DC's, well ... DC should just focus on trying to make a GOOD movie that doesn't have Batman as the lead first.
 

FPLOON

Your #1 Source for the Dino Porn
Jul 10, 2013
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Honestly, I'm on no one's team... except...
Lunar Templar said:
Team 'Nep-nep' of course :p
http://38.media.tumblr.com/d919470d8ef8ace818a11cda29307f17/tumblr_nb7bsvMmZD1r1uq0jo3_500.gif

Other than that, I was already spoiled on who was going to die in this sequel, which made me enjoy the action sequences for what they were... except that last fight because shit got INTENSE! Also, "Homecoming"... (HA!)
 

Overhead

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The idea that being "dark and edgy" is what makes a movie good is in of itself very immature, reminiscent of the EXTREME comics of the 90's which took the darkness of Watchmen but forgot to add any of the literary style and quality.
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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I had some pretty high expectations going into this movie and I'm happy to say that the movie met them. The conflict didn't feel forced at all, and I liked how reluctant many of the characters were to fight each other. Tony's final motivation for going after Bucky may not have made logical sense, but in the heat of the moment, it's hard to fault him for losing it a bit. Speaking of that final action sequence, wow. Seeing Tony not hold back and almost take out both Cap and Bucky was both mesmerizing and heart wrenching.

As for the villain, I think he's one of the best the MCU has created. That might say more about how bad most of their villains are, but I do genuinely think he was a good one. He's just an ordinary man who sought to destroy the Avengers from within. No mind control bullshit that Loki and Ultron used to briefly make a fun scene, he outwitted everyone and until we see otherwise in future movies, the damage he caused may be more lasting than any other villain so far. Though, Cap's letter to Tony definitely brings some hope at the end.

Everyone has been saying that Spiderman and Black Panther were scene stealers. I'd absolutely agree with that. Holland owns the role as someone who's in way over their head, but still extremely competent. I'm really looking forward to him in a standalone movie. The Black Panther just oozes this deadly vibe every time he's on screen.

Edit: as for side..... neither option is particularly appealing when you consider the implications they have. I'd pick Stark's side simply because I'd trust Vision's judgment over just about anyone. Although, he does become distracted at one point which might hint that the stone is interfering with his thought process..... so who knows. To be honest, I think the Black Panther had the best stance on the whole thing. He likes the idea of the Accord, but he doesn't like the baggage that inevitably comes with it.
 

Cicada 5

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Lunar Templar said:
What team am I on?

pff, silly question

Team 'Nep-nep' of course :p



2: Attacking some one because you think they could be a threat is how you breed tragedy.
Yeah, that was kind of the point. You're not supposed to support Batman's actions just understand why he's doing what he's doing.