Captain America - Civil War - Which Side Are You On?

fix-the-spade

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Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Still they are doing quite well taking b-list and c-list villains and making them seem pretty cool.
I'm quietly hoping that Red Skull will make a return some day. Partly because it's Hugo Weaving, and also because the possibility of a Red Skull with cosmic powers is too much fun to ignore.

After all, we didn't technically see him die...
 

irishda

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One of the funniest tropes to me in comic books and by extension, movies, is this annoying need to prove how equal most heroes are, despite all evidence to the contrary. The "Goku v. Superman" debate made endless, except turned even more pointless by making it less "Goku v. Superman" and having it be "Krillin v. Superman" or "Hawkeye v. Goku".

Civil War seemed especially egregious of this based on the trailers. While I haven't seen the movie yet, I will go off the trailer and what the other movies have established.

Team Iron Man consists of no less than three nigh indestructible robots/robot-armored heroes with the capacity for flight and a combined arsenal to rival most battleships. And one of these heroes is so pure and noble, that he alone is the only other hero worthy of wielding Mjolnir. Another is equipped with claws that can actually rend through Cap's vibranium shield. And another has superhuman reflexes, strength, and agility beyond even Captain and Bucky with the ability to bind and contain people. Three of these heroes are supposed to have a genius intellect, and a fourth is a goddamn super computer made "flesh". Oh, and a master assassin to round it all out.

Meanwhile, on Cap's side, we have two guys who are strong and fast. Not as strong and fast as Spiderman, but still. Then there's bow and arrow guy and hang glider man, who'll surely come in handy against the flying juggernauts. The only two with legitimate powers, a guy who can shrink and increase his strength and a woman with non-descript magic powers, are stuck on the ground, unless ants can now survive flamethrowers and lasers and propulsion blasts. And even Cap's strongest ally, Scarlet Witch, got her ass kicked by freaking Hawkeye of all people. Not to mention, Captain's side is almost exclusively ex-criminals and the less than brilliant of the Marvel world.

Even if they were genius, what hope do they have? To recap, the defensive capabilities of Iron Man's side include 3 people with almost invulnerable armor, a suit made out of Captain America's shield materials, and one of the most agile heroes in the Marvelverse. Their offensive capabilities include lasers, cannons, rockets, daggers, claws, webbing, and good ole fashioned metal fists. To counter all that, Captain America's side has, ahem, a shield that only covers part of one person's torso (seriously more people should just shoot his legs) and Winter Soldier's metal arm. Their offense includes bullets, gloved fists, and *gasp* arrows, none of which are dangerous to the 4 heroes sporting serious armor. Scarlet Witch is doing some seriously heavy lifting on this team based on whatever the hell the writer's decide her powers will be for this movie.

TL;DR: Unless Hawkeye's got another USB arrow he can shoot up Iron Man's ass, it'll probably be the funniest thing in the movie to see how they justify how Team America even has a chance against Team Stark.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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fix-the-spade said:
IOwnTheSpire said:
If people could stop taking potshots at BvS any day now, that'd be great, thanks.
That target's going to be on the range for years my friend, years and years.
I just hate the fact that this movie is gonna be #1 on everone's "Worst movie of 2016" list even though so far there are going to be even worse movies than this in the coming months (Star Trek Beyond and Ghostbusters)

I just hate that WB is gonna turn Suicide Squad into another Guardians of the Galaxy with the added reshoots for more humor. I just hope its only on Harley and Joker.
 

Laughing Man

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I'm quietly hoping that Red Skull will make a return some day. Partly because it's Hugo Weaving, and also because the possibility of a Red Skull with cosmic powers is too much fun to ignore.

After all, we didn't technically see him die...
No but what exactly is he returning too? Hydra is all but dead we saw the last of their core facilities getting taken out in the last episode of Agents Of Shield and their last leader was killed by Daisy and whatever is left of it i.e thier cash is under the control of Grant Ward (The Inhuman The HIVE) and the rest of his Inhuman buddies. I doubt Hyrda will be making a return more likely the Inhumans will take the place of Hydra as a bigger more focused enemy, would also tie in with the Inhumans movie coming in 2018.

Even if they were genius, what hope do they have? To recap, the defensive capabilities of Iron Man's side include 3 people with almost invulnerable armor, a suit made out of Captain America's shield materials, and one of the most agile heroes in the Marvelverse. Their offensive capabilities include lasers, cannons, rockets, daggers, claws, webbing, and good ole fashioned metal fists. To counter all that, Captain America's side has, ahem, a shield that only covers part of one person's torso (seriously more people should just shoot his legs) and Winter Soldier's metal arm. Their offense includes bullets, gloved fists, and *gasp* arrows, none of which are dangerous to the 4 heroes sporting serious armor. Scarlet Witch is doing some seriously heavy lifting on this team based on whatever the hell the writer's decide her powers will be for this movie.
Well end of the day Caps Team only pulls off the 'victory' because Vision ends up taking out one of his own guys and Black Widow flips sides at the last minute, they also give Antman a new ability which literally does allow him to lift heavy stuff. Then of course you have the final fight in which they have to systematically disable Ironman abilities, his ability to fly and his ability to accurately aim his weapons and then place him in a situation that isn;t favourable to Iron Man but is perfect for Bucky and Cap (close hand to hand combat) and somehow Ironman still pulls the victory out only to have it snatched away because end of the day it is a Cap movie so he has to win, even if it is a pretty weak victory. So yeah Antman and Scarlet Witch are pulling this team along but who cares the fight was still fucking epic.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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fix-the-spade said:
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Still they are doing quite well taking b-list and c-list villains and making them seem pretty cool.
I'm quietly hoping that Red Skull will make a return some day. Partly because it's Hugo Weaving, and also because the possibility of a Red Skull with cosmic powers is too much fun to ignore.

After all, we didn't technically see him die...
Its definitely a plot thread that was left fairly open. I mean more or less Loki fell out in much the same way during Thor, and he came back. Red Skull is one of those villains who shouldn't be killed off like that. Keep him under wraps and let him show up when least expected.
 

Aptspire

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IOwnTheSpire said:
If people could stop taking potshots at BvS any day now, that'd be great, thanks.
Hello, Mr. Snyder, how are you? Let's be frank here: Potshots always get taken, one way or another. If a movie brings about the displeasure of most of its audience, then far more potshots will be taken.

Also, in Civil War, the antagonist didn't mix his DNA with last movie's antagonist because 'reasons'...
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Zontar said:
talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Which is actually pretty ironic given how in the comics the morality of things was so laughably lopsided in Cap's favour that no one could take it seriously.
Until the end, when Cap realized he'd proven the other side's argument for them as the collateral damage of both sides' battle caused a city to burn around them and surrenders out of guilt. But sure, up until that point it did seem lopsided as all hell.

I enjoyed the movie quite a bit, especially seeing all the various characters we've come to know from across all of these movies having their personal struggles with having to fight their comrades, so it was a lot of fun to see all the various players come together and pull out all kinds of tricks against one another. Oddly, I felt like Vision and Scarlet Witch were pretty under-shown in the battle in favor of Spidey getting his turn at basically everyone.

The newcomers, Spider-Man and Black Panther, were honestly some of the more interesting parts of the movie for me, although for different reasons. I liked how they glossed over Spider-Man's backstory because who in the goddamn hell doesn't know Marvel's most marketable child's backstory at this point, and I liked how Black Panther got some pretty good character development before his own movie even came out. I'm definitely looking forward to both heroes' respective flicks.
 

Brian Tams

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Another point in Cap 3's favor; the war didn't end because Cap and Iron Man's mothers had the same name.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Caramel Frappe said:
I'm going to see the movie for sure, but here's what I think makes it stand over BvS

- Marvel gave superheroes their own movies, enough build up time so we could jump right into this movie.
- Marvel gave each superhero real agendas and why they're fighting instead of 'reasons'.
- Both superheroes are at equal power levels while Superman honestly would beat Batman anyday if he wanted to kill.
- Marvel doesn't allow dark & edgy themes get too dark & edgy in their movies.
- Marvel knows how to write a solid script.
- There's gray areas in this movie, while BvS clearly has a black & white approach to things.

Seriously I could go on, but after seeing why BvS failed, it's not hard to top that (but Captain America: Civil War was going to be awesome regardless of how BvS did.)
1.No commment
2.Batman thinks Superman is dangerous after the events of Man of Steel
3. Batman had the body armor and kryptonite gas pellets.
4. Marvel is never Dark and Edgy. And dark and edgy makes for better stories anyway, I mean look at Game of Thrones and Watchmen.
5. Debateable.
6. Only in this one movie, expect that grey area to vanish in the later movies. And Man of Steel had the grey area of Zod's motivations.:

 

Laughing Man

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2.Batman thinks Superman is dangerous after the events of Man of Steel
and goes in to an all out must kill Superman decision based on stupid reasons and then reinforced by dreams. Seriously his motivations are beyond dumb, he goes from nought to kill without at any point ever even trying or showing that he had tried to understand what Superman was doing during that fight.

Superman was fighting a guy who had just said he would happily kill EVERY human just to punish Superman, he had just blown up the massive planet killing machine but because some buildings got blown up that's reason enough for Batman to want to take Superman down?

The final fight scene in BvsS is almost the same as MOS, big bad guy wants to kill stuff and blow shit up, good guys fight him and lots of stuff gets blown up... but because Superman was fighting beside Batman it's all cool suddenly...

3. Batman had the body armor and kryptonite gas pellets.
Right at the start of that fight Sups lands, gets attacked by Batman and his supersonic projectors (by the way nice steal from Incredible Hulk with that one.) and his auto turrets Superman takes it and instead of just standing his ground and telling Batman why he is there he decides to give batman a bit of slap before telling him why he is there?

4. Marvel is never Dark and Edgy. And dark and edgy makes for better stories anyway, I mean look at Game of Thrones and Watchmen.
Yeah then you have Batman Vs Superman which kind of proves that Dark and Edgy doesn't always make for a better story

6. Only in this one movie, expect that grey area to vanish in the later movies. And Man of Steel had the grey area of Zod's motivations.
How was his motivation grey, he flat out tells you that he wants to rebuild Krypton on Earth and when that fails he turns in to generic I will kill everyone bad dude, his motivations weren't grey at all at no point did he question what he was doing, consider alternatives see anyone elses side or show any conflict on what he was doing, he had a plan and went at it. He was so obvious in what he was doing the movie actually has Superman say that he didn't trust him after hearing his initial Earth broadcast.
 

Bob_McMillan

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irishda said:
And one of these heroes is so pure and noble, that he alone is the only other hero worthy of wielding Mjolnir.
Actually, Mjolnir has a history of being picked up by androids. Unworthiness isnt a problem for them. I guess magic and science don't mix.

TL;DR: Unless Hawkeye's got another USB arrow he can shoot up Iron Man's ass, it'll probably be the funniest thing in the movie to see how they justify how Team America even has a chance against Team Stark.
Have you watched the movie, because Team Cap loses. Cap and Bucky only got away because Widow betrayed them and Vision fucked up and took out Warmachine. Also, Ant-man is a much bigger powerhouse than you think.

Laughing Man said:
How was his motivation grey, he flat out tells you that he wants to rebuild Krypton on Earth and when that fails he turns in to generic I will kill everyone bad dude, his motivations weren't grey at all at no point did he question what he was doing, consider alternatives see anyone elses side or show any conflict on what he was doing, he had a plan and went at it. He was so obvious in what he was doing the movie actually has Superman say that he didn't trust him after hearing his initial Earth broadcast.
The best moment of the HISHE series on YouTube was when Loki pointed out that Zod should have just terraformed Mars.
 

MCerberus

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Marvel kind of amazes me that they can do lighter character drama with their cast. Something DC really can't. This is "we bear the mental scars of life experience except our views on Kantian ethics made us make different decisions." compared to "arglblargl I'ma murder people"

And they made sure each team had someone who isn't grim-lord, lord of grimness so that the proceedings never lose their humanity. The resolution isn't
"our mom has the same first name"

Samtemdo8 said:
But I want my Justice League with Zack Snyder action and visuals.
We can talk about Snyder visuals when he tells post to stop smearing every frame with the 300 filter
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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MCerberus said:
Marvel kind of amazes me that they can do lighter character drama with their cast. Something DC really can't. This is "we bear the mental scars of life experience except our views on Kantian ethics made us make different decisions." compared to "arglblargl I'ma murder people"

And they made sure each team had someone who isn't grim-lord, lord of grimness so that the proceedings never lose their humanity. The resolution isn't
"our mom has the same first name"

Samtemdo8 said:
But I want my Justice League with Zack Snyder action and visuals.
We can talk about Snyder visuals when he tells post to stop smearing every frame with the 300 filter
Isn't the 300 filter the orange color palette?
 

MCerberus

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Samtemdo8 said:
MCerberus said:
Marvel kind of amazes me that they can do lighter character drama with their cast. Something DC really can't. This is "we bear the mental scars of life experience except our views on Kantian ethics made us make different decisions." compared to "arglblargl I'ma murder people"

And they made sure each team had someone who isn't grim-lord, lord of grimness so that the proceedings never lose their humanity. The resolution isn't
"our mom has the same first name"

Samtemdo8 said:
But I want my Justice League with Zack Snyder action and visuals.
We can talk about Snyder visuals when he tells post to stop smearing every frame with the 300 filter
Isn't the 300 filter the orange color palette?
needlessly dark when it doesn't have to be combined with that funky saturation
 

Overhead

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It's a great movie, people should go see it. I'm team Cap for sure.

irishda said:
Civil War seemed especially egregious of this based on the trailers. While I haven't seen the movie yet, I will go off the trailer and what the other movies have established.
You're so wrong.

Big spoilers.

When the airport fight happens, it isn't a fight to see who the victor is. Cap's side are just trying to take a quinjet to get where they need to go, Iron Man's side are trying to stop them and take down Cap. It's not just a big brawl to decide who's the best, Cap has a goal that is very different from taking down Iron Man. Cap's side is aware that they're going to be overpowered and all they really try to accomplish in the end is to buy Cap and Bucky some time to escape and get where they need to go, even if it means most of Cap's team are captured (which they are). Even then they only manage to do it because Black Widow switches sides and helps Cap and there's some accidental friendly fire on Iron Man's team
 

Gorrath

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talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Interesting that you say that because amongst my friends, no one would have picked Iron man's side. The whole premise that the Avenger's need to be reigned in because "they cause destruction" is a position without a pulse; it's like blaming firefighters for the collateral damage created by fires. If the accords were merely oversight, I would have definitely been on Stark's side but they wanted control over the Avengers both in what they would or would not be doing.

If the Avengers had all signed, I have no doubt their very next set of duties after capturing/killing Bucky would be mutant round-up duty. Have special powers and don't report it to the government? Enjoy your stay at our secret prison with no trial. So when they aren't trying to put everyone from Xavier's school in prison, I imagine they'd spend the rest of their time waiting for the U.N. security council to be useful for something other than international political gridlock. Want to send them to the U.S. because of concerns over mass wiretapping? U.S. vetoes. Want to send them to Serbia to stop Baron Von Killemall from murdering everyone? Russia vetoes. Want to send them to China to check on secret weapons testing? China vetoes.

What sense does it make for a tight group of fallible but unselfish and self-sacrificing people to turn their power over to a bunch of politicians with a thousand back-door agendas at worst and a ton of useless bickering at best? I mean SHIELD itself was an international agency under the command of just such a body and its greatest hits album includes such melodies as "The Future's So Bright I've Got to Wear Shades," and "Heil Hydra: A Love Story."
 

immortalfrieza

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Just got back from seeing the movie, and I thought it was pretty good. The only issues I had were
that the fighting between the Avengers was caused by as far as I remember Bucky being framed for blowing up the UN on the basis of the "evidence", a blurry photo that was barely one step above a picture of a man shaped Bonsai tree. The two sides fighting over the fact that Tony wanted revenge for Bucky killing his parents and Cap didn't believe that he should be held accountable for what he did under against his will as the thing that gets them fighting as it did with the movie's final fight between the three would have made much more sense.

The other issue I had was with Spider-Man. Based on his performance generally I'd say Tom Holland looks like he has the acting chops to play an effective Spider-Man and Peter Parker but I don't think the script nor Spider-Man's overall role in the movie for that matter was good and significant enough for him to reach that potential. Spider-Man isn't in the movie for long, his characterization in the movie boils down to an overly excited Avengers fanboy with little if anything else to his character, has no reason to be involved in the conflict besides Tony essentially blackmailing him into it, and he doesn't even quip that much and isn't funny when he does, not even in the typical groan inducing "so incredibly lame it's funny" way that Spider-Man's quipping usually is. I'll wait until Spider-Man gets a movie of his own to judge Holland's ability to act as either Peter Parker or Spider-Man when he has the screen time to really show that instead of what we've got here that amounts to a glorified cameo.

Gorrath said:
talker said:
I saw Civil War with some friends the other day and we all agreed that the only reason [ i ] anyone [ /i ] would go for team Cap was that he's as close to a central protagonist the movie has.
Interesting that you say that because amongst my friends, no one would have picked Iron man's side. The whole premise that the Avenger's need to be reigned in because "they cause destruction" is a position without a pulse; it's like blaming firefighters for the collateral damage created by fires. If the accords were merely oversight, I would have definitely been on Stark's side but they wanted control over the Avengers both in what they would or would not be doing.

If the Avengers had all signed, I have no doubt their very next set of duties after capturing/killing Bucky would be mutant round-up duty. Have special powers and don't report it to the government? Enjoy your stay at our secret prison with no trial. So when they aren't trying to put everyone from Xavier's school in prison, I imagine they'd spend the rest of their time waiting for the U.N. security council to be useful for something other than international political gridlock. Want to send them to the U.S. because of concerns over mass wiretapping? U.S. vetoes. Want to send them to Serbia to stop Baron Von Killemall from murdering everyone? Russia vetoes. Want to send them to China to check on secret weapons testing? China vetoes.

What sense does it make for a tight group of fallible but unselfish and self-sacrificing people to turn their power over to a bunch of politicians with a thousand back-door agendas at worst and a ton of useless bickering at best? I mean SHIELD itself was an international agency under the command of just such a body and its greatest hits album includes such melodies as "The Future's So Bright I've Got to Wear Shades," and "Heil Hydra: A Love Story."
Exactly. The Avengers aren't cops, firefighter, military, or anything like that which have the time and means to be directed and their power checked, they are an elite group of Superheroes that are brought in when it hits the fan so badly that a few people dying as collateral damage is nothing compared to what would happen if they didn't do something and whom are the only ones able to do something, just like the situation the movie opens with. The fact that the Avengers are there means they've hit a point similar to how and why people in monster movies decide bringing in Godzilla to fight the current monster is a better idea than just leaving the monster there or continuously making futile attempts to get rid of it, bringing in the Avengers isn't something done because another less likely to be harmful response is a realistic option. The Avengers don't have the time to deal with dozens of politicians spending weeks arguing if they should have the Avengers do something and/or what all the time, nor can they or should they have to deal with each of those politicians having reason besides "save as many people as humanly or inhumanly possible" as their motivation behind allowing the Avengers to go superheroing, and that's if they don't just use them as their personal hit squad of ignorant assassins never told what they need to in order to realize what they are doing is bad. Tony's position lost all weight when it's made clear that the registration is not just about oversight but about giving the U.N. the legal power to precisely control when, where, or even if the Avengers can do ANYTHING. If anyone should have that kind of control over the Avengers it should be a truly neutral party that unlike something like the U.N. has no personal stake in anything the Avengers do, could do, nor have been directly harmed or benefited from anything they have done except in the most broad sense that they have saved the whole planet, and should have at least one like party as a backup to replace them if that situation changes so that they are no longer neutral.
 

Kameburger

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Super Cyborg said:
I seem to be in the minority, at least from what I can tell, who actually liked the villain. Sure, not nearly as memorable personality wise, but for what the film was trying to do and how it goes down in the end I really liked him.

Action was definitely top notch, with many scenes just oozing with great stuff. I really felt the force from many of the fights, where it really felt like those hits did some damage. The ending I liked but I think that's going to split most people on this movie depending on their interpretation of it.
I honestly am with you here, I think having him operate the way he did was absolutely perfect. Was it the comic character? No but then again who is really attached to Zemo? He is one of the few characters that came up with an intelligent plan to take out his enemies, never didn't bother having it be theatrical, and didn't just chase pulling the trigger himself. He doesn't try to take out anybody out in a fist fight, he simply outsmarts them. In a way that makes him one of the more interesting marvel villains. Hell even the Joker in Dark Knight fights Batman hand to hand at points when he really didn't have to. Zemo only pushes the plot when he needs to. No big bombastic speeches, no needlessly flaunting his plan. I honestly liked the way they played this.
 

The Enquirer

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Diablo1099 said:
Super Cyborg said:
I really liked the end with Black Panther with mask off talking to Zemos. It was short but really hit home. Then seeing the very end of the fight between Cap and Stark hit everything home.
"The living are not done with you yet..."

"So i ask you, as both warrior and king, how long do you think you can save your friend from me?"

"Don't bother Ms. Romanov. I shall kill him myself."

Man, I didn't know shit about that guy before this movie and now I really want to know more.
That's one of the best things these movies have done, sparked interest in some of the lesser characters.
I'd check out Christopher Priest's run at him. Also watch Earth's Mightiest Hero's. That's actually a really good version of the character.