Christopher Dorner first drone target on U.S. soil.

the clockmaker

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Kopikatsu said:
Zhukov said:
I love how Americans only get pissed off when it's Americans being targeted by drones.

Armed drones target people all around the world? Eh, no big, they're just dirty foreigners. Recon drone used to search for murder suspect on the run? THE END TIMES ARE UPON US!

Hey, I'm not a citizen of the USA, so clearly I'd be less entitled to a trail or any of that jazz.
It's more that drones are associated with warfare, and they're being used on US soil. For the same reason that 9/11 was a big deal, people take it very personally when they feel the fight has 'brought to us'. Some people might/do see this as the US waging war against itself, despite Dorner only being one man.

There's also the fact that the LAPD has been firing on civilians in the search for Dorner.
Rifles are associated with warfare, the FBI is rocking about with M4s
Body armour is associated with warfare, SWAT is happy with that.
Multicam is a military uniform, which the DEA is using as their latest in fall raiding fashion.

Just because something is used by the military does not invalidate its use in law enforcement.
 

spartan231490

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SaneAmongInsane said:
It's official: The drone war has come home to America. Wanted fugitive Christopher Dorner, the homicidal former cop currently at war with the LAPD, has become the first known human target for airborne drones on U.S. soil. Their use was confirmed by Customs and Border Patrol spokesman Ralph DeSio, who revealed the government's fear that Dorner will make a dash for the Mexican border. The fugitive has already killed three people, according to police, and has a $1 million bounty on his head. Dorner, who has military training, is believed to be hiding in the wilderness of California's San Bernardino Mountains, where locating him without air support may be all but impossible.
Credit: http://now.msn.com/christopher-dorner-is-first-drone-target-on-us-soil

Welcome to the days of Government executions my fellow Americans. In what way is it just for them to kill a man with out a fair trial? It's clear now the LAPD and the Government don't want to do the lawful thing and capture Dorner alive, they want a body. Murderer or not, Dorner is still a United States citizen and is entitled to a trial.

Your thoughts, Escapist?
Those days have been here for like 2 decades. Ruby Ridge.

As for my thoughts? We have bigger problems. Feinstein's gun ban, HR 347, Patriot ACT, NDAA, aforementioned Ruby Ridge, the Bill of Rights, and American Freedoms have been an illusion for years, maybe decades.
 

spartan231490

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Akalabeth said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
Welcome to the days of Government executions my fellow Americans. In what way is it just for them to kill a man with out a fair trial? It's clear now the LAPD and the Government don't want to do the lawful thing and capture Dorner alive, they want a body. Murderer or not, Dorner is still a United States citizen and is entitled to a trial.
Why is this only relevant if it's an American citizen?
Obama has signed off on what, 350 drone strikes? 350 strikes against "imminent threats" where there was "no other alternative" according to the CIA guy. What a load of bullshit.

It's just assassination is all it is.

And Obama has won the Noble Peace Prize? What a fuckin joke.
Hitting war targets, even when there is collateral damage, is a completely different being from executing criminals without trial. For fuck's sake, a century ago hitting civilian targets like cities was considered the best war strategy, this idea that civilians are sacred and should be left out of it is a very recent fabrication of our society.
 

Kopikatsu

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Katatori-kun said:
And there's also the fact that people with a hard-on for being persecuted are willing to jump to the conclusion that the US is waging war against itself despite the fact that the first sentence of the OP's link shows that's not the case. Because fuck the truth, we need to imagine it's the end times!
the clockmaker said:
Rifles are associated with warfare, the FBI is rocking about with M4s
Body armour is associated with warfare, SWAT is happy with that.
Multicam is a military uniform, which the DEA is using as their latest in fall raiding fashion.

Just because something is used by the military does not invalidate its use in law enforcement.
I said that's how it's being perceived, not that that's how it actually is. I personally have no interest in that particular matter, although I am interested in seeing how far Dorner gets.
 

Commissar Sae

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the clockmaker said:
Kopikatsu said:
Zhukov said:
I love how Americans only get pissed off when it's Americans being targeted by drones.

Armed drones target people all around the world? Eh, no big, they're just dirty foreigners. Recon drone used to search for murder suspect on the run? THE END TIMES ARE UPON US!

Hey, I'm not a citizen of the USA, so clearly I'd be less entitled to a trail or any of that jazz.
It's more that drones are associated with warfare, and they're being used on US soil. For the same reason that 9/11 was a big deal, people take it very personally when they feel the fight has 'brought to us'. Some people might/do see this as the US waging war against itself, despite Dorner only being one man.

There's also the fact that the LAPD has been firing on civilians in the search for Dorner.
Rifles are associated with warfare, the FBI is rocking about with M4s
Body armour is associated with warfare, SWAT is happy with that.
Multicam is a military uniform, which the DEA is using as their latest in fall raiding fashion.

Just because something is used by the military does not invalidate its use in law enforcement.
This is all true, it's just that people have had more time to come to terms with those realities. Drones are still fairly new and the only times anyone has really heard about them is when they blow something/someone up somewhere else in the world.

All things told, I'm not even sure I trust the American military with armed drones, since they have tended to be rather quick on the trigger resulting in unfortunately frequent friendly fire incidents last time Canada fought alongside them. That said I have absolutely no issue with unmanned surveillance drones as they will help save the lives of soldiers and civilians both with the intel they provide.

OT: OP is freaking out over nothing, as many others have noted. This is a surveillance drone and short of dive bombing him it is unlikely to cause any lasting harm other than inform the LAPD of his current wereabouts (which will probably expose him to an awful lot of lasting harm, since they are clearly out to kill him anyway.)
 

Commissar Sae

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spartan231490 said:
Hitting war targets, even when there is collateral damage, is a completely different being from executing criminals without trial. For fuck's sake, a century ago hitting civilian targets like cities was considered the best war strategy, this idea that civilians are sacred and should be left out of it is a very recent fabrication of our society.
Wrong. Leaving civilians out of war was a 17th to 19th century construction. They were seen as spoils of war and killing them all was counterproductive. The late 18th and most of the 20th century saw active targeting of civilians as a tactic to reduce civilian morale and break the enemy's ability to produce.

In many ways we have been trying to return to that type of thinking because of the outright barbarity of the last century.
 

Wraith

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HellbirdIV said:
I wonder what would happen if he did use that shoulder-mounted missile he claims to have to shoot down the drone. Does the conflict escalate to an AC-130 pelting the area? Because I have to admit that sounds kind of awesome. Ridiculous, but awesome.
From what I understand his kill-streak isn't high enough for that.



I'm a bad person.
 

Mykal Stype

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I hate it when people do stuff like the OP is doing: not researching at all and reacting to words, not meaning. In this case, the word "drone." I'm very against drone strikes, but at least know enough to know that there are multiple types of drones, with this one being surveillance. This is perfectly fine by me as they are chasing down a well armed criminal through the woods. I'm not expecting the police to send ground troops off to play a game of Marco, Polo, Bullets.
Also, do you really think that the government would start cluster bombing a guy on US soil. People are already screaming like chickens with their heads chopped off about freedoms that aren't being taken away in the first place. Drone strikes wouldn't exactly help the government's image.
 

emeraldrafael

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SaneAmongInsane said:
It's official: The drone war has come home to America. Wanted fugitive Christopher Dorner, the homicidal former cop currently at war with the LAPD, has become the first known human target for airborne drones on U.S. soil. Their use was confirmed by Customs and Border Patrol spokesman Ralph DeSio, who revealed the government's fear that Dorner will make a dash for the Mexican border. The fugitive has already killed three people, according to police, and has a $1 million bounty on his head. Dorner, who has military training, is believed to be hiding in the wilderness of California's San Bernardino Mountains, where locating him without air support may be all but impossible.
Credit: http://now.msn.com/christopher-dorner-is-first-drone-target-on-us-soil

Welcome to the days of Government executions my fellow Americans. In what way is it just for them to kill a man with out a fair trial? It's clear now the LAPD and the Government don't want to do the lawful thing and capture Dorner alive, they want a body. Murderer or not, Dorner is still a United States citizen and is entitled to a trial.

Your thoughts, Escapist?
thats not actually what the article says. if you want to quote something you should generally quote it right, not paraphrase. I'm pretty sure they're only using the drone more for the search part more than the destroy. while the US government has put people to death under shady means, this is by no means the start of the days of government executions (if anyhitng that's already started, and long ago with death sentences in prisons).

it also goes on to say he may not be the first person to have a drone used to find him.

<spoiler=Besides, how you think this is going to shoot missiles I have no idea>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V90OkAnERH0/TyGPq3NM2PI/AAAAAAAAOAE/SwMe_O5yvI8/s1600/0126124.jpg
I know science is scary and making huge leaps and bounds, I'm doubting they're going to blast him away with anything they can attach to it.

and according to a source I found they're not using one

The world does not need fear mongering at the moment.
 

Evil Smurf

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So Obama is a war criminal like bush? *le sigh*

I knew this already by the way.
 

The Critic

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It doesn't actually seem like they're using the drone to target him for a kill, rather it just seems like they're using it to find him; which, as far as UAV use on American soil goes, is nothing new.

You know, come to think of it, there was a good TIME article on this subject a couple weeks ago, the basis of it was pretty much that the technology of drones is growing faster than our speed at creating laws concerning their use. Seems kind of pertinent to the OP's intended point, but in this situation, the drone use is sticking pretty well to established precident.

emeraldrafael said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
It's official: The drone war has come home to America. Wanted fugitive Christopher Dorner, the homicidal former cop currently at war with the LAPD, has become the first known human target for airborne drones on U.S. soil. Their use was confirmed by Customs and Border Patrol spokesman Ralph DeSio, who revealed the government's fear that Dorner will make a dash for the Mexican border. The fugitive has already killed three people, according to police, and has a $1 million bounty on his head. Dorner, who has military training, is believed to be hiding in the wilderness of California's San Bernardino Mountains, where locating him without air support may be all but impossible.
Credit: http://now.msn.com/christopher-dorner-is-first-drone-target-on-us-soil

Welcome to the days of Government executions my fellow Americans. In what way is it just for them to kill a man with out a fair trial? It's clear now the LAPD and the Government don't want to do the lawful thing and capture Dorner alive, they want a body. Murderer or not, Dorner is still a United States citizen and is entitled to a trial.

Your thoughts, Escapist?
thats not actually what the article says. if you want to quote something you should generally quote it right, not paraphrase. I'm pretty sure they're only using the drone more for the search part more than the destroy. while the US government has put people to death under shady means, this is by no means the start of the days of government executions (if anyhitng that's already started, and long ago with death sentences in prisons).

it also goes on to say he may not be the first person to have a drone used to find him.

<spoiler=Besides, how you think this is going to shoot missiles I have no idea>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V90OkAnERH0/TyGPq3NM2PI/AAAAAAAAOAE/SwMe_O5yvI8/s1600/0126124.jpg
I know science is scary and making huge leaps and bounds, I'm doubting they're going to blast him away with anything they can attach to it.

and according to a source I found they're not using one

The world does not need fear mongering at the moment.
And what do you know, it looks like the drones aren't even being used, anyways.
 

Cpu46

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Sep 21, 2009
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Quaxar said:
From the article:
In 2011, a North Dakota county sheriff used a drone to stalk three alleged cow thieves.
Tracking cow thieves with a drone... and that's not even in the South.
Although where does a county sheriff even get this stuff?
Drone can mean anything from a military surveillance drone to a relatively cheap (compared to military) quad rotored hobby drone with a camera. Met a guy with one of the later once. He had it self leveling and wind compensating with a gps tracker that he could use to keep it in place, had a camera and memory capable of up to an hour of low quality or 15 minutes of high quality video, and some pretty impressive range. He estimated spending $400-600 total on all the components over the course of a few years. Made me want to build one.

OT: Everyone getting a knee jerk reaction to the word drone nowadays. It makes me sad.
 

the clockmaker

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Evil Smurf said:
So Obama is a war criminal like bush? *le sigh*

I knew this already by the way.
By the definition of war, war crime and also the subject of the thread, I think that your comment is less than relevant.
 

michael87cn

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So... did everyone in this thread miss the news about him like a week ago where cops riddled a vehicle full of bullets because it -looked- like his? And nearly killed 2 innocent women in the process?

You think they're sending drones after him to 'bring him in'? They almost killed two innocent civilians by shooting first and investigating later. How long do you think they sat in their vehicle almost bleeding to death...?

Yeah, they're totally not going to track him down and murder him....

"It's just a flying camera" HAH!
 

emeraldrafael

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Quaxar said:
SanAndreasSmoke said:
Hmm. If this drone is only being used for tracking, is this guy really the first US citizen to be tracked this way? I'm no expert on this kind of thing, but it seems like this method of searching for a fugitive would've been used before.
From the article:
In 2011, a North Dakota county sheriff used a drone to stalk three alleged cow thieves.
Tracking cow thieves with a drone... and that's not even in the South.
Although where does a county sheriff even get this stuff?
yu ca get them from specialty companies. while looking up about drones used on US soil (and more specifically just for a picture of an LAPD drone) there was <url=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/01/lapd-cracks-down-on-drone-aircraft-use-by-real-estate-agents.html>an article about how the LAPD didnt want real estate agents using them because they wanted to justify it as it ouwld just generally scare the shit out of everyone (Which it seems to be reading the comments of the OP's source) and takes up airspace as an UFO (Which in this post 9/11 world is something teh US or really any country shouldnt wwant to hear).
 

the clockmaker

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Commissar Sae said:
This is all true, it's just that people have had more time to come to terms with those realities.
I am not in favour of capability limitation based on the public perception of the equipment.
Drones are still fairly new and the only times anyone has really heard about them is when they blow something/someone up somewhere else in the world.
Then people should not put forward an opinion based on that experience without first making even a cursory effort to widen their knowledge base. Example, radiation and radiation therapy.

All things told, I'm not even sure I trust the American military with armed drones, since they have tended to be rather quick on the trigger resulting in unfortunately frequent friendly fire incidents last time Canada fought alongside them.
Drones, as a close air support platform, actually have a lower rate of blue on blue incidents than conventional fast air. If you think about it what has more time to evaluate whether or not to strike, a drone lazily circling the battlespace or a jet moving faster than the speed of sound?

OT: OP is freaking out over nothing, as many others have noted. This is a surveillance drone and short of dive bombing him it is unlikely to cause any lasting harm other than inform the LAPD of his current wereabouts (which will probably expose him to an awful lot of lasting harm, since they are clearly out to kill him anyway.)
In all honesty I would have no problem with him being taken out by a drone, I know the police are supposed to operate on a different set of rules, but if he is A-Hostile, B-Armed and C-not conducting himself in accordance with the act of surrender, he looks like fair game to me. He knows the police are after him, he knows that he is armed, he knows the consequences of these actions.

In addition, part of the reason that drones are so successful in countering insurgents and, I suppose criminals, is that there is that element of dehumanisation. Not of the target in the eyes of the operator, but the operator in the eyes of the target. See, when you see a cop coming towards you, you see someone you can bargain with, bribe, trick, convince to be merciful etc etc. If you are so inclined, you can see them as a source of glory, because if you kill a cop, you are (and I stress that this is only in the eyes of the criminal community) a 'badass cop killer'.

Now, substitute that with a drone. In the eyes of the target, the drone cannot be bought, it can not be intimidated, it will not take pity on you. If you are hostile and not willing to surrender, it kills you, if you attempt to harm a civilian under its protection it kills you, if you rock about armed and should not be, it kills you. And if you manage to kill it, its operator swears, takes a sip of his coffee and sics another one on you.

For these reasons, armed drones could make very effective law enforcement tools.
 

the clockmaker

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michael87cn said:
So... did everyone in this thread miss the news about him like a week ago where cops riddled a vehicle full of bullets because it -looked- like his? And nearly killed 2 innocent women in the process?

You think they're sending drones after him to 'bring him in'? They almost killed two innocent civilians by shooting first and investigating later. How long do you think they sat in their vehicle almost bleeding to death...?

Yeah, they're totally not going to track him down and murder him....

"It's just a flying camera" HAH!
Can you show evidence that the drone is armed? If not, how do they plan on using it to kill him.
To provide a comparison, your position is similar to seeing a police helicopter and immediately assuming that that helicopter is armed with hellfire missiles.