Circumcision: a Pillar of American ignorance

[Rodrigo Girao]

Look again, that statement was not mine. Still, plastic surgery has merits, of course; but the case here is something else - choice. You choose to get a nose job or whatever. But here, we're talking about a body modification much more severe than a nose job, done to minors without consent.

That'd be acceptable as an emergency procedure. Is that the case? No.

That'd be acceptable as a correction to a deformity. Is that the case? No.

And even in adults, that'd be acceptable only if the doctors explained all the pros and cons. Is that the case? Let's have another can of worms: doctors who push circumcision sell bullshit health benefits and dismiss the side effects. And that is definitely fraud.

 

[chinangel]

Look again, that statement was not mine. Still, plastic surgery has merits, of course; but the case here is something else - choice. You choose to get a nose job or whatever. But here, we're talking about a body modification much more severe than a nose job, done to minors without consent.

That'd be acceptable as an emergency procedure. Is that the case? No.

That'd be acceptable as a correction to a deformity. Is that the case? No.

And even in adults, that'd be acceptable only if the doctors explained all the pros and cons. Is that the case? Let's have another can of worms: doctors who push circumcision sell bullshit health benefits and dismiss the side effects. And that is definitely fraud.

i honestly don't understand why you're so passionate about this. It's like this topic is pushing your rage button.

 

[Iron Lightning]

Look again, that statement was not mine. Still, plastic surgery has merits, of course; but the case here is something else - choice. You choose to get a nose job or whatever. But here, we're talking about a body modification much more severe than a nose job, done to minors without consent.

That'd be acceptable as an emergency procedure. Is that the case? No.

That'd be acceptable as a correction to a deformity. Is that the case? No.

And even in adults, that'd be acceptable only if the doctors explained all the pros and cons. Is that the case? Let's have another can of worms: doctors who push circumcision sell bullshit health benefits and dismiss the side effects. And that is definitely fraud.

i honestly don't understand why you're so passionate about this. It's like this topic is pushing your rage button.

Widespread, legal, socially preferable mutilation of little boys' dicks seems pretty important to me.

 

[SD-Fiend]

Look again, that statement was not mine. Still, plastic surgery has merits, of course; but the case here is something else - choice. You choose to get a nose job or whatever. But here, we're talking about a body modification much more severe than a nose job, done to minors without consent.

That'd be acceptable as an emergency procedure. Is that the case? No.

That'd be acceptable as a correction to a deformity. Is that the case? No.

And even in adults, that'd be acceptable only if the doctors explained all the pros and cons. Is that the case? Let's have another can of worms: doctors who push circumcision sell bullshit health benefits and dismiss the side effects. And that is definitely fraud.

i honestly don't understand why you're so passionate about this. It's like this topic is pushing your rage button.

Widespread, legal, socially preferable mutilation of little boys' dicks seems pretty important to me.

considering that this is a forum about penis skin on a gaming website it really isn't

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

considering that this is a forum about penis skin on a gaming website it really isn't

> thread on 'Off-topic Discussion' board
> says we shouldn't discuss off-topic subjects

Excuse me while I facepalm.

 

[SD-Fiend]

considering that this is a forum about penis skin on a gaming website it really isn't

> thread on 'Off-topic Discussion' board
> says we shouldn't discuss off-topic subjects

Excuse me while I facepalm.

face palm all you want at the end of the day continually arguing about this subject still doesn't matter

 

[Aprilgold]

"So what did you do this Christmas?"

"Oh you know, the usual, had turkey for dinner, watched movies with the family around an open fire, then I logged into an internet forum to discuss the cosmetic value of minor surgery in altering male genitalia."

On topic, I'm European, and I wouldn't bother with it on my children, and I've never heard of anyone getting circumsised (or anywhere that does that) Over here that really isn't a tradition at all. It would pretty much be like suggesting you cut off your middle toe.

Dude, I wish I lived there now...

now as for on topic
as I've said before, I see nothing just about mutilating the genitalia of male babies
people flip the heck out if you talk about doing surgery on a baby in ANY other cosmetic way, why is this so different?
why is getting the pleasure center of your dick hacked off considered fine while getting minor botox is news worthy? (no I'm not saying EITHER is okay, I'm just saying this is a bad sign that stupidity is considered a bigger problem then evil)

also, why can't we cut off girls clitorial hoods at birth?
I'm sorry, what was that generic american civilian I've had this conversation in the past with?
it's evil and diminishes a womans sense of pleasure during sex?
then why is it okay to do it to men?
...because your religion says it is?
...
your god's a douche.

Because it can be a medical hazard, and yes, there was a fellow in this very page [its page 12, read the top guy.] who suffers from it. It doesn't show a decrease in pleasure or a increase, but it can be helpful to stop pain from the child.

Its better to do it to a baby then to a adult, mainly because the adult will have to get stiches down there, can't touch his wang for several weeks and I can imagine it being hard to walk. While the baby heals so fast it won't need stiches and it won't remember it.

Look again, that statement was not mine. Still, plastic surgery has merits, of course; but the case here is something else - choice. You choose to get a nose job or whatever. But here, we're talking about a body modification much more severe than a nose job, done to minors without consent.

That'd be acceptable as an emergency procedure. Is that the case? No.

That'd be acceptable as a correction to a deformity. Is that the case? No.

And even in adults, that'd be acceptable only if the doctors explained all the pros and cons. Is that the case? Let's have another can of worms: doctors who push circumcision sell bullshit health benefits and dismiss the side effects. And that is definitely fraud.

i honestly don't understand why you're so passionate about this. It's like this topic is pushing your rage button.

You don't need to have a personal stake in something to argue against something so irrational.

Why do people argue against religion?

Why do people argue against a political stance?

Why is anyone arguing anything?

At the end of the day, motives do not matter. Evidence does. If evidence does not back a positive action, you don't do it.

Can you give me evidence on the benefits of being un-circumcised?

My point on this whole thing. There is no physical evidence for it to be a improvement over the other. Theres no point in arguing it. Hell, were getting to the point in todays medicine to where we can start growing organs out of pastry dishes. It can't be that hard to get your foreskin back to normal, theres even a method that is helpful for getting it back, you won't have as many feeling in that skin, but you can get your foreskin back.

No one is going to see your willy unless its yourself or your in bed with somebody else, saying thats its immoral to change the thing that no one else but your lover will see unless your in a porno is ridiculous. It would be immoral to give the kid a nose job, that would be. Or a breast implant so they will be bigger when shes older. Those are immoral, fucking getting your foreskin cut off is less of a issue then what I just said. Only you will see it and therefore it shouldn't really matter unless it bothers you so much, you can get it back yourself.

Adults make plenty of decisions for their kids before their even old enough to remember things. Where they live, what school they go to, whats their lunch, their bedtime, things like that.

Secondarily cosmetic surgeries offer a huge boost in cash flow for any hospital, that's money that's filtered back into the hospital's infrastructure to pay for additional nurses, medicine, and equipment, so loosing that revenue stream would severely cripple any medical establishment.

Thus, doctors should perform unnecessary procedures to fill the hospital's coffers. I have a name for that: fraud.

Isn't it as bad as news stations being fear mongers. Look, if you want to argue that being circumcised is terrible, then you can hold that opinion. But imagine being circumcised as a adult. You'll have stitches down there, it will probably hurt to walk, can't do anything with your willy and you'll remember that pain till your dead. As a baby you probably won't remember any of it. Theres not much point in arguing over it since, honestly, its a lesser of two evils thing, I mean throw circumcision out the window, and just let uncircumcised roam or do it when its painless for the individual. But does it really matter? I never saw a dude get off using only his foreskin, so does it really matter?

 

[Alex_P]

But imagine being circumcised as a adult. You'll have stitches down there, it will probably hurt to walk, can't do anything with your willy and you'll remember that pain till your dead.

The pain's not that memorable, really.

They gave me oxy after my surgery. I chewed the pills instead of swallowing them, because that's a thing I do. Later on I found out that there's an inhibitor component in oxycodone pills, designed to prevent them from functioning if you crush them up (to prevent substance abuse -- people crush them to snort or inject them). So, basically, for the first few days, I had no painkillers other than original surgical anesthetic. It hurt and I spent a lot of time using an ice pack, but it really wasn't all that dramatically painful. And I'm not someone with a freakishly high pain tolerance, either.

Which isn't to say that I think childhood circumcision is bad at all, really. Just that the pain factor is rather overstated.

-- Alex

 

[AngloDoom]

i honestly don't understand why you're so passionate about this. It's like this topic is pushing your rage button.

For a lot of people it's nothing short of barbaric. I personally hate to think that there is an entire society out there where infant boys are being put under risk the moment they are out of the womb so their parents think their penis looks better.

Honestly, I get the same sort of sick feeling as when I saw Toddlers and Tiaras, only intensified. It turns my stomach and it's infuriating that the only answer people give when supporting infant genital amputation of any kind is "Well why not?" Then, when you provide them with a big lists of 'why nots' you get ridiculous arguments with no grounding in logic ("I have a circumcised penis and I can still ejaculate") or something that diminishes the severity of the problem ("I tell my kid to go to bed at seven, which is a choice much more severe than irreversible surgery").

For a lot of people outside the US it's just plain wrong to take away an individual's choice in how their private parts - the parts only they and the people they trust should only see - look and, potentially, feel. The parents probably won't see it ever again when their kid approaches double-digits, so why do they get more of a say in how it looks and sexually performs than the boy it is attached to?

EDIT - Shpellingz!

 

[Aprilgold]

"So what did you do this Christmas?"

"Oh you know, the usual, had turkey for dinner, watched movies with the family around an open fire, then I logged into an internet forum to discuss the cosmetic value of minor surgery in altering male genitalia."

On topic, I'm European, and I wouldn't bother with it on my children, and I've never heard of anyone getting circumsised (or anywhere that does that) Over here that really isn't a tradition at all. It would pretty much be like suggesting you cut off your middle toe.

Dude, I wish I lived there now...

now as for on topic
as I've said before, I see nothing just about mutilating the genitalia of male babies
people flip the heck out if you talk about doing surgery on a baby in ANY other cosmetic way, why is this so different?
why is getting the pleasure center of your dick hacked off considered fine while getting minor botox is news worthy? (no I'm not saying EITHER is okay, I'm just saying this is a bad sign that stupidity is considered a bigger problem then evil)

also, why can't we cut off girls clitorial hoods at birth?
I'm sorry, what was that generic american civilian I've had this conversation in the past with?
it's evil and diminishes a womans sense of pleasure during sex?
then why is it okay to do it to men?
...because your religion says it is?
...
your god's a douche.

Because it can be a medical hazard, and yes, there was a fellow in this very page [its page 12, read the top guy.] who suffers from it. It doesn't show a decrease in pleasure or a increase, but it can be helpful to stop pain from the child.

Its better to do it to a baby then to a adult, mainly because the adult will have to get stiches down there, can't touch his wang for several weeks and I can imagine it being hard to walk. While the baby heals so fast it won't need stiches and it won't remember it.

Look again, that statement was not mine. Still, plastic surgery has merits, of course; but the case here is something else - choice. You choose to get a nose job or whatever. But here, we're talking about a body modification much more severe than a nose job, done to minors without consent.

That'd be acceptable as an emergency procedure. Is that the case? No.

That'd be acceptable as a correction to a deformity. Is that the case? No.

And even in adults, that'd be acceptable only if the doctors explained all the pros and cons. Is that the case? Let's have another can of worms: doctors who push circumcision sell bullshit health benefits and dismiss the side effects. And that is definitely fraud.

i honestly don't understand why you're so passionate about this. It's like this topic is pushing your rage button.

You don't need to have a personal stake in something to argue against something so irrational.

Why do people argue against religion?

Why do people argue against a political stance?

Why is anyone arguing anything?

At the end of the day, motives do not matter. Evidence does. If evidence does not back a positive action, you don't do it.

Can you give me evidence on the benefits of being un-circumcised?

My point on this whole thing. There is no physical evidence for it to be a improvement over the other. Theres no point in arguing it. Hell, were getting to the point in todays medicine to where we can start growing organs out of pastry dishes. It can't be that hard to get your foreskin back to normal, theres even a method that is helpful for getting it back, you won't have as many feeling in that skin, but you can get your foreskin back.

No one is going to see your willy unless its yourself or your in bed with somebody else, saying thats its immoral to change the thing that no one else but your lover will see unless your in a porno is ridiculous. It would be immoral to give the kid a nose job, that would be. Or a breast implant so they will be bigger when shes older. Those are immoral, fucking getting your foreskin cut off is less of a issue then what I just said. Only you will see it and therefore it shouldn't really matter unless it bothers you so much, you can get it back yourself.

Adults make plenty of decisions for their kids before their even old enough to remember things. Where they live, what school they go to, whats their lunch, their bedtime, things like that.

Secondarily cosmetic surgeries offer a huge boost in cash flow for any hospital, that's money that's filtered back into the hospital's infrastructure to pay for additional nurses, medicine, and equipment, so loosing that revenue stream would severely cripple any medical establishment.

Thus, doctors should perform unnecessary procedures to fill the hospital's coffers. I have a name for that: fraud.

Isn't it as bad as news stations being fear mongers. Look, if you want to argue that being circumcised is terrible, then you can hold that opinion. But imagine being circumcised as a adult. You'll have stitches down there, it will probably hurt to walk, can't do anything with your willy and you'll remember that pain till your dead. As a baby you probably won't remember any of it. Theres not much point in arguing over it since, honestly, its a lesser of two evils thing, I mean throw circumcision out the window, and just let uncircumcised roam or do it when its painless for the individual. But does it really matter? I never saw a dude get off using only his foreskin, so does it really matter?

1. No one has to prove a negative. That is stupid. If arguments work like that then God, the tooth fairy, santa claus, etc would all exist because they need to be disproven. At the end of the day, arguing for circumcision is arguing a positive because it requires action. If you cannot give good evidence, don't bother. This is Occam's razor at its purest.

2. There is no proven benefits of circumcision. Therefore, its meaningless. Why bother to do something for no reason? Its utterly illogical, and irrational.

3. Foreskins are specialised pieces of skin, you cant just "grow it back." Trying to invoke a field of study that is still in its infancy is stupid. We live in the present, not the future. Saying you can "get your foreskin back" is like saying "you can get your arm back with a wooden arm."

4. All the problems of foreskin are incredibly rare that well over 90% of the population wont even be effected by them. Arguing for circumcision is like arguing a surgery for an incredibly rare condition that the patient isnt even proven to have yet.

5. Surgeries always hurt. However, there is a 90% chance that if something goes wrong it wont be your dick. You would still feel pain. If I had a circumcision I would be losing my foreskin and bits of my nose. Why? Because it turns out the "big bad" to actually happen was a deviated septum. A circumcision would have had no effect on the status of what would ACTUALLY go wrong. I still felt pain, regardless of circumcision status.

6. Since when is a decision a surgery for NO medical reason? Stop trying to equate a surgery to "telling a kid to go to school." That itself is a stupid argument. Not all decisions are the same. You can change a name, you can change a shool, and the kid can move out when he's old enough. he will never be able to get an actual foreskin back.

Basically, your argument goes against all rules of logic.

1. Reading back on it, yeah thats correct.

2. The reason is that its cosmetic thus why I asked if there was any major upgrade or downgrade to it. Which, there isn't apparently.

3. You can make it look like you have a uncircumsied without truly having it. All I'm saying is that medicine is evolving quick enough that it can't be a stretch to somehow regain it fully by using medicine in a couple of unknown years.

4. True, but that doesn't mean its not still there. Even if 10% of the population feels it, that doesn't mean that you can avoid it. Just throwing that people are affected by it.

5. Can you remember the exact pain? Well that comes down to when you were and what not. Yes, you felt pain, but you can't exactly remember the pain, do you think thats bad or a good thing? Feeling pain is bad, yes, but remembering it for years can be something of haunting.

6. Meh, nothing to do here but its a good point.

I should probably re-evaluate what I said earlier, in a much more defined tone.

My view on circumcision is a cosmetic surgery which happens mainly on infants who can't exactly remember the pain that ensued. Like all cosmetic surgeries, its all for cosmetic reasons, just for looks. Circumcision doesn't provide or take away any benefits to sex later on in life. You can through a method to regain the looks of foreskin without getting it back in its fullest. Circumcision later on in life involves stitches which eliminates sex and, from my point, could make it difficult to walk the bigger your member is. My take on it is to either keep going with it, despite no point, or to drop it as a whole, since its pointless, but keep training doctors in it in case someone who wants to remove their foreskin later in life.

I'd like to point out I said my view, which is very similar to my opinion, I only asked the question of you, which was "Can you give me evidence on the benefits of being un-circumcised?" If you could, then its perfectly OK to completely drop circumcision. If not, then I don't see much problem in letting it continue.

Its all for cosmetics on something that almost never sees the light of day, only you or your lover will ever see unless your in a porno. Its a barbaric thing, but I don't think it causes any true harm, if you want it gone, then it will eventually happen, but not for some time. But yes, it will happen, about the same time that religion becomes too old to keep people in check with its own book.

But imagine being circumcised as a adult. You'll have stitches down there, it will probably hurt to walk, can't do anything with your willy and you'll remember that pain till your dead.

The pain's not that memorable, really.

They gave me oxy after my surgery. I chewed the pills instead of swallowing them, because that's a thing I do. Later on I found out that there's an inhibitor component in oxycodone pills, designed to prevent them from functioning if you crush them up (to prevent substance abuse -- people crush them to snort or inject them). So, basically, for the first few days, I had no painkillers other than original surgical anesthetic. It hurt and I spent a lot of time using an ice pack, but it really wasn't all that dramatically painful. And I'm not someone with a freakishly high pain tolerance, either.

Which isn't to say that I think childhood circumcision is bad at all, really. Just that the pain factor is rather overstated.

-- Alex

Thank you Alex. I just assumed it was painful because the head of the penis is very sensitive, I just assumed that it was very painful due to it being so close to the head. Now I have something to base the pain of having your foreskin cut off later in life whenever I get into a discussion about it.

 

[Aprilgold]

2. Its only called cosmetic because there hasn't been any actual study linking it to benefits. As for consequences, its still up for debate. However, when it comes to medicine its better not to do it in the first place. After all, it adds nothing and puts the child at risk.

3. that still doesn't get the actual sensation back. You assume that research will go anywhere and fix everything. That isn't always the case. Sure they may get the technology someday, but there is no guarantee when it will be. It could be hundreds of years after your death or so late in life you wouldn't be able to use your new found foreskin. Don't bother with "maybes" and just keep the foreskin the kid is born with. You don't mess with "futures," this isn't a stock market. The foreskin is cannot be replaced, only fakes can be made. Saying "oh you can get your arm back fully, IN THE FUTURE WITH ROBOT ARMS" is exactly the same as you're suggesting.

4. You cannot avoid what is coming to you. Do you think I could "avoid" impacted wisdom teeth? "avoid" a deviated septum? "avoid" an appendix acting up? Nope. I can't. Doing circumcision before a problem occurs only causes more pain. You don't go looking for problems to fix before they appear. Ultimately, you cannot avoid everything. There will always be risks, and trying to stop them all is fool's errand that will only leave you in more pain than if you didn't try. You don't go looking for trouble.

5. Remember the exact pain? I remember all my surgeries, but the pain fades with time. It always does.

Ultimately, circumcision is a dying practice that is limited to very small sections of the world. Religion isn't fairing any better, as the last bastion (America) is sliding down the path to Atheism/Deism. Its happening much quicker than anyone realized. circumcision rates dropped like a rock in America in the last 10 years.

The benefits themselves are debatable. Women report better sex from lower friction, more sensitivity, no chance of scaring, freedom to choose, and easier masturbation.

2. Agreed.

3. Yeah, thats sorta what I'm saying, that it will happen eventually. And producing fakes is the best you can do at this point. But yeah, it can't be to far of a fetch to say it will happen somewhere in time.

4. Agreed.

5. Not for me, but I forgot that other people aren't exactly the same as me, so sorry about that one. Everyone remembers everything differently when it comes to the physical body, still sorry about that one.

Yeah, it'll happen, eventually. Its happening fast but I can't claim a date that it will stop. Its all really debatable on benefits and overall isn't really worth while, but it doesn't really matter.

 

[AngloDoom]

-SNIP-

Sorry, I just wanted to but in and quote you to say that you're being so much more open to discussion and happy to concede on certain points you agree with than many people in this thread. You're acting a lot more rationally and more open than many people on this thread, on both sides.
You have my respect for that.

 

[Kyle 2175]

Circumcision at birth is a senseless procedure; circumcision, when necessary due to extreme phimosis or other reasons in adulthood is perfectly fine. The main point here being choice, it's a person's right to choose what happens to their body.

 

[Niall Pitcher]

Oi! This Brit got it for medical reasons thank you very much!
And Circumcision isn't American anyway!

 

[DarthAcerbus]

You know who else hated circumcision? HITLER! (I have no idea if this is true)

More seriously, have seen all the shit Japan gets up to? Where's the moral outrage about having sex with squid?

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

Circumcision at birth is a senseless procedure; circumcision, when necessary due to extreme phimosis or other reasons in adulthood is perfectly fine.

IF the patient is informed about side effects and alternatives. Most doctors will NOT do that.

 

[DarthAcerbus]

Religion isn't fairing any better, as the last bastion (America) is sliding down the path to Atheism/Deism. Its happening much quicker than anyone realized. circumcision rates dropped like a rock in America in the last 10 years.

I take issue with this statement. America as the last bastion of religion? America actually has a smaller Christian population (percentage-wise) that most of South America (not to say that America doesn't have a large religious population, because it does). And how about the entire Middle East, Africa, and India. And some quick internet digging reveals that approximately 90% (on the high end) of the world's population is religious, so yeah. I don't think religion is as shaky and fragile as you might think.