College Education Arms Race Bankrupting America

xDarc

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Believe me, I wish public education was better. Then maybe I wouldn't have to teach huge ass classrooms full of college students what a complete sentence looks like. No, I am not kidding - that is my job 4 days a week. Also, how to use commas properly.
Hundreds of billions of dollars, most of it probably borrowed from lenders, on education spent every single year. No one wants to admit it. But tons of this money is completely, fucking, wasted.
 

xDarc

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Bara_no_Hime said:
xDarc said:
Again, off topic - OP, is that Lita Alexander from Babylon 5 in your icon there? Cause, if so, again, props. Very cool.

Or is it just the same actress in a different roll? If so... never mind.
It's Patricia Tallman. Night of the Living Dead 90'. She's my girl.
 

TheLaofKazi

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Thank you so much OP for bringing up such an important point. Seriously, the educational-inflation in this country is ridiculous. We keep going in this direction of demanding more and more education for more and more people in order for them to get jobs, and it's completely unsustainable. Far more education is required of people then is necessary to the jobs they are going for.

Berethond said:
What bothers me more than all that which you said is that our elementary and high schools have just become one protracted college entry process.

Why did I go to elementary school?
To get ready for junior high school.
Why did I go to junior high school?
To get ready for high school.
Why do I go to high school?
To get ready for college.
Why will I go to college?
So I can get a better paying job.

Note that none of the answers to any of these questions are "To learn stuff." Also note that these aren't my answers, they're the answers I get from the people in education.
Exactly. And in the last few decades, more and more schools, degrees, money and time has been added to this list of things you must do to get a job, even if the job doesn't require that much knowledge or education. In my opinion, and this isn't the most popular one out there, we need far less education to prepare people for the jobs out there.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that for many jobs or useful roles in society require no formal education, and that structured, formal education can even ruin those jobs and roles. Look at what school does to the arts, and how many people that are marginalized by an education system that makes them feel unintellignet or inadequate, when they really aren't. I feel school even did that to me. At first it made me hate or think I'm bad at many subjects or things that I later found out that I loved doing and am actually pretty decent at. It was just the way that subject was taught that didn't mesh well with me.
 

Dags90

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Death on Trapezoids said:
Counter point to the exploding nursing job: these same baby boomers are getting old, and they're gonna need someone to care for them. Might be the logic behind some of these people.

I respond with an equally unresearched rant:

In today's colleges, passing grades are achieved as much by, if not more by, social skills as they are by just work. College students get the previous year's tests and exams from siblings, friends, and other such networks. Perhaps they are just adept at schmoozing the administration. They know exactly what to study, and that's all they study, in some cases not even learning to do the job the class is supposed to prepare them for. At best, the professor "changes cirriculum" by running a 2-3 year rotation of tests, tests which are kept on file by the plethora of fraternities and sororities inherent to the college environment. The professor just sees way too many kids with As, concludes that his/her course isn't hard enough, and assigns more busywork. Students lacking this social network, or students that want to pass the class on intellect, are left at a disadvantage.

You go to college to learn how to do your job, not how to play the freaking system.
Maybe it's because I go to a small, heavily commuter school, but that couldn't be farther from my experience.
 

xDarc

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Catalyst6 said:
Do you know why people look for college graduates when finding workers? I'll give you a hint: it's not for what you learned in school. It's a well-established idea that you learn most of your job while doing it. No, what they're looking for is the drive to work for your job, to sit down day after day and study things that you may never use. It's the ability to perform under stress, and to turn work in on time.

Your system of teaching only for what you need in the next five minutes will breed the kind of person that you can expect from a college dropout: someone who only does the bare minimum and is completely against education for education's sake. That is to say, it'll breed the intellectual equivalents of the machines that make auto parts.
I think there are plenty of people with college degrees who only do the bare minimum.

And if everyone has to go to college to prove themselves so that they may earn a living wage, then something is fucked up. Take into account that a guy coming out of high school used to be able to get a job in a shop and feed a family of 4.

That same job is lucky to feed your damn self today.

So now everyone is expected to immediately go into debt after school so they can truly educate themselves and remain competitive in a ridiculously over-educated, under-performing country.

Bass ackwards.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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xDarc said:
It's Patricia Tallman. Night of the Living Dead 90'. She's my girl.
So yes, right actress, wrong role. Patricia Tallman is best known as Lita Alexander, her award-winning role on Babylon 5 (according to IMDB, and you can't argue with them).
 

Frotality

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the point i think should be made is that employers are morons. a fancy looking piece of paper or if your lucky enough, a recommendation from some industry big-shot you happened to talk to on the bus or whatever carry far more weight with employers than they should. EVERYONE, teachers, staff, graduates, or whatever at my college pretty much addmitted that i wasnt there to learn or even to get a degree, but to network with everyone in the 'biz' because having met virtually anyone mildly important was the best qualifier you could have. they all jump at the sight of potential signs of talent and dedication because theyre the most obvious signs, and real talented and dedicated grads get passed up in favor of some guy who got lucky. more and more its made apparent to me just how little a college 'education' signifies, as more and more of the supposedly experienced and highly qualified industry leaders of america make decisions so short-sighted they might as well be blind.

someone posted how all of school is just to get into higher levels of school, and all throughout the reason is never to actually learn anything. ultimately, you get that better paying job from college pretty much just to pay off loans you made while bloody going to college. i think if you dont have some personal reason, and a damn good one, college sure as hell aint gonna be worth it nowadays. thats exactly why i dropped, having only ever gone because i had jack else to do and its what my family has been pestering me to do my whole life. of course only one of them went to college, and lo and behold, it was to be a nurse.

college is considered the standard, while military is seen as what hopeless losers fall back on...well in the navy ive got job security, all the money i could need, room and board, and a better resume (you had dinner with jon carmack? i went to boot camp, they KNOW im reliable) should i ever choose to get into the civilian work force. fuck college.
 

xDarc

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Bara_no_Hime said:
xDarc said:
It's Patricia Tallman. Night of the Living Dead 90'. She's my girl.
So yes, right actress, wrong role. Patricia Tallman is best known as Lita Alexander, her award-winning role on Babylon 5 (according to IMDB, and you can't argue with them).
All I know is in NOTLD90, she runs around in an A-shirt, and baby, it's cold outside. (^)(^)
 

thethingthatlurks

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Catalyst6 said:
Dags90 said:
Bara_no_Hime said:
I know platinum is real (my wedding ring is made out of it) but what about palladium? Is that real too?
It's in the platinum family, next to osmium. I think it's used in catalytic converters. Tritium is also real (From Spiderman 2).
It's kind of a wonderball for organic chemistry, it catalyzes a lot of difficult organic reactions. That's how I know it, at least.

Actually it is only used for a few catalytic reactions (car exhaust), on account of it being so damn unreactive, and moderately expensive. Sadly, its blandness also makes it rather useful in jewelry, as it never does anything interesting. Some lower mass transition metals make much better catalysts (depending on the application, obviously), as do things like Iridium, but those cost a small fortune.
I used a Grubb's catalyst (Ruthenium based) for a polymerization once. The damn thing was >$800 for 5g.
 

kevintheshane

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xDarc said:
What really bothers me is where does this money go? How many billions to the greedy bankers and lenders get? What do the colleges do with the money?
This notion that lenders and bankers are greedy and evil is childish. Most student loans offer deferred payments and are underwritten at low interest rates.

The cost of education is NOTHING next to the cost of having an uneducated populace.

P.S. Making inflammatory statements of the top of yours and wikipedia's head and then continuing to post claiming you "don't have the time for this" is a cop out. Grow up.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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xDarc said:
All I know is in NOTLD90, she runs around in an A-shirt, and baby, it's cold outside. (^)(^)
In Babylon 5, she is a powerful telepath who makes contact with a mysterious, ancient race. Also, at one point her eyes turn black and she blows up a planet with her brain (sort of).
 

Smeagol150

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Bara_no_Hime said:
xDarc said:
It's Patricia Tallman. Night of the Living Dead 90'. She's my girl.
So yes, right actress, wrong role. Patricia Tallman is best known as Lita Alexander, her award-winning role on Babylon 5 (according to IMDB, and you can't argue with them).
zzz Wait... Babylon 5? This thread now interests me.
 

Catalyst6

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xDarc said:
Catalyst6 said:
I think there are plenty of people with college degrees who only do the bare minimum.

And if everyone has to go to college to prove themselves so that they may earn a living wage, then something is fucked up. Take into account that a guy coming out of high school used to be able to get a job in a shop and feed a family of 4.

That same job is lucky to feed your damn self today.

So now everyone is expected to immediately go into debt after school so they can truly educate themselves and remain competitive in a ridiculously over-educated, under-performing country.

Bass ackwards.
"Over-educated"? America is *substantially* lagging behind both Europe and Asia in terms of education. And besides, there's no such thing as being "over-educated". You might not use your secondary knowledge directly, but it definitely influences you.

As for the job in the shop, it's true, well-paying jobs require degrees. However, there are other jobs available that do not. Yes, you might not be paid as well, but that's life. Any kind of skilled labor requires education, there's no way around that.

EDIT:

thethingthatlurks said:
Catalyst6 said:
Dags90 said:
Bara_no_Hime said:
*snip*

Actually it is only used for a few catalytic reactions (car exhaust), on account of it being so damn unreactive, and moderately expensive. Sadly, its blandness also makes it rather useful in jewelry, as it never does anything interesting. Some lower mass transition metals make much better catalysts (depending on the application, obviously), as do things like Iridium, but those cost a small fortune.
I used a Grubb's catalyst (Ruthenium based) for a polymerization once. The damn thing was >$800 for 5g.
Heh, I said it was used in reactions, not that it was used well ;). Just kidding. Still, it does have its use in a few places if you can afford it.
 

lacktheknack

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xDarc said:
lacktheknack said:
xDarc said:
Irridium said:
I'm not gonna do a well researched thread...
Thats not a good start. At all.
At least I'm honest.
Then don't be surprised when no one jumps on board.
You do it. I don't have time for this shit.

282 billion dollars in 2002. I'd wager it's been hundreds of billions every year for decades. The point is, maybe you should just try to wrap your head around the concept before people start expecting fucking spreadsheets.

P.S.

Which no one by the way has done. So I'm glad I didn't waste my time. I've been posting on the web long enough to know not to waste time on well researched threads for people who don't appreciate them. If someone gets the general idea, they will participate. If someone doesn't- the thread will just sit for 12 hours until I make a snide remark, and then thread will become something else.

*rolls eyes*
You said yourself the forum is too young for you. And I just handed in a massive stats lab, so excuse me if I don't launch myself at Excel right now.

As for your wager that education has been hundreds of billions for decades... no possible way. I'd be stunned if it was over that in 1995.

Also, the military soaks up between two and three times as much as education, speaking of arms races. Why not cut THAT before sticking the scissors at people who research, develop, and ultimately produce the machine you're sitting in front of right now?

I find it absolutely delicious how you attack ME for not doing research or understanding your high and mighty mind, when your ideas are easily just as flawed as you think mine are (if not moreso).
 

xDarc

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Frotality said:
should i ever choose to get into the civilian work force. fuck college.
I read your post and yes, luck and networking have a lot of to do with it. We all know someone, have that empirical evidence, of a completely undeserving moron at an upper management level.

And yes, fuck college. I think America needs to get back to small business. This is what I'm gonna take my stab at, rather than blow it on tuition.

My 35 year old friend has a BA in secondary ed/history major. He works at an office and makes 12.50. I know plenty of these stories. Plenty more where so and so hasn't even had a job in a year and they apply themselves hard core.
 

Dags90

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kevintheshane said:
This notion that lenders and bankers are greedy and evil is childish. Most student loans offer deferred payments and are underwritten at low interest rates.

The cost of education is NOTHING next to the cost of having an uneducated populace.

P.S. Making inflammatory statements of the top of yours and wikipedia's head and then continuing to post claiming you "don't have the time for this" is a cop out. Grow up.
Not to mention they've actually been cut out of the equation for almost a year [http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/30/us-usa-obama-studentloans-idUSTRE62T1FX20100330]. OP has missed a lot of seriously important memos.
 

xDarc

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C.S.Strowbridge said:
xDarc said:
I'm not gonna do a well researched thread...
Gee, I wonder why you didn't get the immediate response you were looking for?
Because I didn't post a question or poll. I'm not gonna post figures for people to pick with, i've seen threads become entirely about sources. I'd rather deal strictly in opinion.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Smeagol150 said:
zzz Wait... Babylon 5? This thread now interests me.
^^;; Um, I didn't really have more than "hey, that's Lita!"

But yeah. Babylon 5... great show. Other than season 5, but... yeah.