Connectivity
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
This I agree on. Even though it was boring to sail, the long rides and scavenger hunts took away the claustrophobic feel of games like Ocarina of Time, where you felt closed in inside a mountain meadow.Outright Villainy said:
Also, I'm looking forward to hear about this space game you're talking of.
I honestly have to disagree with Yahtzee on this one... the last thing I needed for ME2 was obnoxious flights between plot points (I was pissed you couldn't even skip the Relay cutscenes). That's starting to sound suspiciously like a jRPG which I find totally ironic. I also found having the dock-and-walk thing from ME1 annoying; obviously I want to go here, I pressed "dock" didn't I? If I wanted to walk toward every place I wanted to go, I'd go play an MMORPG. I play games like ME for story. Needless extension of gameplay for the sake of some semblance of "immersion" is totally unnecessary and distracting. Sure it might be cool for the first three or four times, but after the 68th time, is it really necessary? I always promote ideas like "fast travel" in games that normally make you walk... my time is finite and I'm not paid to play games for a living. If I can complete the same amount of plot progression by 7:30pm that would normally take me until 7:55pm by removing all unnecessary fluff like repetitive travel between points, I'm totally for that.
If you want a sense of "bigness" go outside... I hear it's pretty big out there.
If you want a sense of "bigness" go outside... I hear it's pretty big out there.
The tangents between me and Yahtzee are scary some times. I, too, have aspirations towards Fun Space Game precisely born of this sense of lack of connectivity that bothered me about Mass Effect 2.
Perhaps this is where all gamers would be if they were playing a ridiculous amount of games since C-64 days. The need to roll our own comes from a ridiculous amount of casual gamer pandering going on these days. Because casual gamers are thick and it's easier to develop a crude simple game than a deep mind-blowing one.
Although my approach isn't to use a Unity 3D engine but rather to use the BYOND engine [http://www.byond.com/] which is a simple 2D tile-based engine which has inherent multiplayer support. Embracing limitations and all that.
Perhaps this is where all gamers would be if they were playing a ridiculous amount of games since C-64 days. The need to roll our own comes from a ridiculous amount of casual gamer pandering going on these days. Because casual gamers are thick and it's easier to develop a crude simple game than a deep mind-blowing one.
Although my approach isn't to use a Unity 3D engine but rather to use the BYOND engine [http://www.byond.com/] which is a simple 2D tile-based engine which has inherent multiplayer support. Embracing limitations and all that.
I think the trade-off between the planet square of nothingness and much more well designed environments was a great step. To me, the Mako sections of ME1 were unusual considering what I saw as available technology in the setting.
We have flying vehicles, but I have to use a land-base one to roam around? Which required a suitable landing site, which nothing was ever built near because everyone else uses shuttles! It was even in the Codex that the only reason the Normandy can drop the Mako was because it was small enough to enter the atmosphere, but I still wanted to just land at the site I need to be at. It was also annoying to deal with enemies while in the Mako, and only the major missions had areas that were interesting to drive around on anyway.
And why do I have to find everything that should be scanable from orbit?
ME2's resource mining was an annoying timesink, too, but at least I could find the stuff without trying to drive a tank over a mountain. ME1's ore was never on flat terrain.
We have flying vehicles, but I have to use a land-base one to roam around? Which required a suitable landing site, which nothing was ever built near because everyone else uses shuttles! It was even in the Codex that the only reason the Normandy can drop the Mako was because it was small enough to enter the atmosphere, but I still wanted to just land at the site I need to be at. It was also annoying to deal with enemies while in the Mako, and only the major missions had areas that were interesting to drive around on anyway.
And why do I have to find everything that should be scanable from orbit?
ME2's resource mining was an annoying timesink, too, but at least I could find the stuff without trying to drive a tank over a mountain. ME1's ore was never on flat terrain.
just yesterday i decided to not embrace, but acknowledge my limitations. 20 minutes later i drew up the blueprint of an awesome invention. like you and your game, i'm going to make this invention myself, prove it works, and see what happens after that. i didnt even name it yet.
Interesting idea for a space game, having the main element be flying so close to another ship that it becomes your frame of reference. One of the problems with space sims of flight sims is that they never felt very fast unless you are near another object or the ground. Without seeing stuff whiz by you 400mph is just a number that means you are not stalling and your wings aren't about to rip off. Once again, best of luck making it, we are cheering for you.
Totally agree here. Games need extranous bits that tie the world together, they might feel like a chore at times but are absolutely essential for immersion.
That's also what killed Oblivion for me. I started playing and travelled into this awesome, slightly repetative world. I literally walked out of the city, and just went straight ahead with no idea where my journey would lead me. It had a huge sense of place and I spend hourse walking around, climbing a mountain and getting my level 1 ass kicked by mud crabs. And then...I realized you could quick travel. No longer did you have to travel all the way back with your trusted horse to make it back to the city and sell loot but you could simply press 2 mouse clicks and there you were. It killed the setting and crippled the feeling of scale. Morrowind had the travel system of giant monster things, which atleast made some sense, but the quick travel system seemed like to easy a way to get around.
Shadow of the Collosus got this exactly right. You get on your horse and just go. No idea where you're heading, chasing after a beam of light. That was awesome immersion. No hud, no signs, no quick travel, no bullshit. The feeling of being dumbed in a strange world is essential for free roaming games to work and SotC nailed it. People would complain and moan about it being boring riding around with no enemies, but they were missing the point. It was an adventure, and one of the finest and boldest video games ever offered.
As for the space game: Awesome. I don't think a game designed around swimming controls is the best idea, but if it gets you from A to B then it'll do. Space games should be played with a nice, old joy-stick. Those were some tight controls.
That's also what killed Oblivion for me. I started playing and travelled into this awesome, slightly repetative world. I literally walked out of the city, and just went straight ahead with no idea where my journey would lead me. It had a huge sense of place and I spend hourse walking around, climbing a mountain and getting my level 1 ass kicked by mud crabs. And then...I realized you could quick travel. No longer did you have to travel all the way back with your trusted horse to make it back to the city and sell loot but you could simply press 2 mouse clicks and there you were. It killed the setting and crippled the feeling of scale. Morrowind had the travel system of giant monster things, which atleast made some sense, but the quick travel system seemed like to easy a way to get around.
Shadow of the Collosus got this exactly right. You get on your horse and just go. No idea where you're heading, chasing after a beam of light. That was awesome immersion. No hud, no signs, no quick travel, no bullshit. The feeling of being dumbed in a strange world is essential for free roaming games to work and SotC nailed it. People would complain and moan about it being boring riding around with no enemies, but they were missing the point. It was an adventure, and one of the finest and boldest video games ever offered.
As for the space game: Awesome. I don't think a game designed around swimming controls is the best idea, but if it gets you from A to B then it'll do. Space games should be played with a nice, old joy-stick. Those were some tight controls.
And that's why I'm not a writer. That's exactly how I feel, I just can't put it to words like that.
It's also the same reason why I really had no problems whatsoever with the elevator rides. Yeah they were long, but hell at least you were actually travelling somewhere, plus it added a certain sense of scale (an elevator ride that long must mean this station is huge). The cheesy lift music and hilarious dialogue helped a lot.
It's also the same reason why I really had no problems whatsoever with the elevator rides. Yeah they were long, but hell at least you were actually travelling somewhere, plus it added a certain sense of scale (an elevator ride that long must mean this station is huge). The cheesy lift music and hilarious dialogue helped a lot.
I would have loved to have explorable areas with a greater sense of scale, but the point about the airlock is really rather astute - in Mass Effect 2, you could enter it, but it didn't have a point, as landing just presented you with a squad selection screen and then you would magically be outside the dock.
Now you could point out that playing the whole "decontamination in progress" animation only to then bring up a squad screen was just faffing about to get to the same point, but I always liked hearing the computer tell me that the captain was leaving the ship and the XO had the helm, or vice versa.
Just leaving that aspect of debarkation would have gone a long way to keeping the sense of immersion going.
Now you could point out that playing the whole "decontamination in progress" animation only to then bring up a squad screen was just faffing about to get to the same point, but I always liked hearing the computer tell me that the captain was leaving the ship and the XO had the helm, or vice versa.
Just leaving that aspect of debarkation would have gone a long way to keeping the sense of immersion going.
Yep, the game definitely needed some more space.
And more Krogan headbutting.
I think Jack should headbutt Grunt, then Grunt should do an offensive tackle on Jack. Then commander Shepard could choose which one of them to roundhouse kick into space dust.
And more Krogan headbutting.
I think Jack should headbutt Grunt, then Grunt should do an offensive tackle on Jack. Then commander Shepard could choose which one of them to roundhouse kick into space dust.
Sounds like you need some real world immersion.
When I was a kid I used to think that the world stopped existing when I went inside my house.
Anyway, FFX had a similar problem. Sure the map of Spira looked big, but it didn't take you that long to get across it, (random monster encounters aside). Then when you got the Airship all you had to do was 'fly' to where you wanted to go. The paths of travel were extremely linear, and what little exploration you could do was highly discouraged by constant annoying random monster encounters. So it always felt like a game... though it's one of the better (J)RPG's I've ever played as far as leveling systems go.
When I was a kid I used to think that the world stopped existing when I went inside my house.
Anyway, FFX had a similar problem. Sure the map of Spira looked big, but it didn't take you that long to get across it, (random monster encounters aside). Then when you got the Airship all you had to do was 'fly' to where you wanted to go. The paths of travel were extremely linear, and what little exploration you could do was highly discouraged by constant annoying random monster encounters. So it always felt like a game... though it's one of the better (J)RPG's I've ever played as far as leveling systems go.
Ah, who would have thought that we'd be pining for the Mako with all it's wonky physics...
And good luck to Yahtzee with his space game - I look forward to beta testing it.
And good luck to Yahtzee with his space game - I look forward to beta testing it.
I think this is why I became addicted to a demo of Homeworld 2 several years ago... I never did get the full version.