Control
- Thread starter Encaen
- Start date
Good rundown of the archetype. One thing you might want to stress more thought is the patience involved. PVDDR (Paulo Victor) probably summed it up best say that if you are taking two damage a turn you are probably winning. It isn't so much about counter and stopping threats as it is about setting up a board state that punishes your opponents aggressive or slow play.
Answer: Everything dies, Elesh Norns die from legendary rule, and you can't regen from having a toughness of 0 and, like the -2/-2 and legendary rule, it's a state-based effect, so everything dies at the same time.
704.1. State-based actions are game actions that happen automatically whenever certain conditions (listed below) are met. State-based actions don't use the stack.
704.1a Abilities that watch for a specified game state are triggered abilities, not state-based actions. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
704.2. State-based actions are checked throughout the game and are not controlled by any player.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step's first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
704.5k If two or more legendary permanents with the same name are on the battlefield, all are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the "legend rule". If only one of those permanents is legendary, this rule doesn't apply.
704.1a Abilities that watch for a specified game state are triggered abilities, not state-based actions. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
704.2. State-based actions are checked throughout the game and are not controlled by any player.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step's first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
704.5k If two or more legendary permanents with the same name are on the battlefield, all are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the "legend rule". If only one of those permanents is legendary, this rule doesn't apply.
Make sure though that you don't confuse patience with actually playing slow.karp250 said:
Your first few turns should probably take all of about 30 seconds a piece, if that long. Depending on your style of play, you might be able to find control style cards in just about any color. If you're not playing creatures and have a problem with a large number of creatures that can't get tokens, feel free to use Blasphemous Act to stop creatures from attacking. Of course, depending on the format, this could backfire.
Thrun's regeneration shield activates as normal. When the second Elesh Norn enters the battlefield, both die immediately due to the legend rule, which I am inclined to think takes priority over the Norns' abilities. Thrun is unaffected, and still has his regeneration shield on.
I'm not sure if I'm right, but this is my best guess.
Haha, yeah you definitely don't want to Phyrexian Obliterator [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222206]. "Sac 13 permanents" seems like more than just a backfire.vxicepickxv said:
A good effort, but [user]deth2munkies[/user] has it right above. Everything dies. The second Elesh Norn's -2/-2 stacks with the first for the instant they are on the battlefield at the same time. Simultaneously, Thrun is put into the graveyard and can't regenerate for having 0 toughness and the Legend Rule takes care of both Elesh Norns.CounterAttack said:
Control combines the two things I love doing in games:
Killing things and making huge monsters.
I find it to be the most fun to play as well, because in an aggro dominated format like this one, you have to weigh the risk vs reward of spending a valuable Mana Leak or Go for the Throat early to prevent damage or saving them for a larger threat to come.
My deck of choice (and I'm working on retooling it now as I haven't played in just over a month and DKA came out) is Esper (UWB, Blue/White/Black) Solar Flare (a deck that plays control spells and reanimation in the form of Unburial Rites. Typically, I use Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy for the first few turns, then use Black Sun's Zenith or Day of Judgement to clear the board, which usually lets me rely on Go for the Throat to take care of one or two of the things between 4 and 6, by which time I start dropping Titans Sun and Grave, Wurmcoil Engine or Elesh Norn at 7. If they kill it, I just Unburial Rites it back into play.
I also have some nasty combos with Sun Titan bringing back Phantasmal Image copying Sun Titan bringing back another Image bringing back soemthing else, and ye olde T4 Elesh Norn with Forbidden Alchemy pitching her and an Unburial Rites.
Lingering Souls and Tragic Slip are 2 cards I'm definitely looking to put into my deck, but as I said, I haven't played in a while or devoted much time to it, so we'll see how it turns out!
Killing things and making huge monsters.
I find it to be the most fun to play as well, because in an aggro dominated format like this one, you have to weigh the risk vs reward of spending a valuable Mana Leak or Go for the Throat early to prevent damage or saving them for a larger threat to come.
My deck of choice (and I'm working on retooling it now as I haven't played in just over a month and DKA came out) is Esper (UWB, Blue/White/Black) Solar Flare (a deck that plays control spells and reanimation in the form of Unburial Rites. Typically, I use Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy for the first few turns, then use Black Sun's Zenith or Day of Judgement to clear the board, which usually lets me rely on Go for the Throat to take care of one or two of the things between 4 and 6, by which time I start dropping Titans Sun and Grave, Wurmcoil Engine or Elesh Norn at 7. If they kill it, I just Unburial Rites it back into play.
I also have some nasty combos with Sun Titan bringing back Phantasmal Image copying Sun Titan bringing back another Image bringing back soemthing else, and ye olde T4 Elesh Norn with Forbidden Alchemy pitching her and an Unburial Rites.
Lingering Souls and Tragic Slip are 2 cards I'm definitely looking to put into my deck, but as I said, I haven't played in a while or devoted much time to it, so we'll see how it turns out!
Ah control... I love you so =D.
In my early... (earlier!) days, I ran mono black control. It was so much fun killing everything my enemy summoned. I got some especially sadistic glee when summoning Gatekeeper of Malakir or Skinrender.
Now that I'm playing a bit more standard than I used to... I'm running U/B control. I just got myself some Consecrated Sphinxes and Grave Titans. Those have been tons of fun. I've also found that Bloodgift Demon works quite well. Still no planeswalkers or Darkslick Shores shores for me though... D=
Also, snapcaster would be a good addition to a control deck yes?
In my early... (earlier!) days, I ran mono black control. It was so much fun killing everything my enemy summoned. I got some especially sadistic glee when summoning Gatekeeper of Malakir or Skinrender.
Now that I'm playing a bit more standard than I used to... I'm running U/B control. I just got myself some Consecrated Sphinxes and Grave Titans. Those have been tons of fun. I've also found that Bloodgift Demon works quite well. Still no planeswalkers or Darkslick Shores shores for me though... D=
Also, snapcaster would be a good addition to a control deck yes?
Very much new to the game myself (as of a few weeks ago), I have really come to love the control philosophy of gaining an early card advantage and having an instant for every occasion.
My personal preference is a U/B control deck whose long-term goal is to smash faces with a Stormtide Leviathan. The Blue instants really ruin any plans they have while I gain my advantage and the multiple different options of ressurection from the graveyard ensure that I can still play my Leviathan if it gets destroyed in any way. Some small defenders, a couple of Whispersilk Cloaks and some scry/draw effects complete the deck, giving me solid control and the shroud for extra security on my Leviathan.
In the (very casual) games I have played thus far, it's been a winning combo, but it seems a bit unfocussed for proper competitive play.
My personal preference is a U/B control deck whose long-term goal is to smash faces with a Stormtide Leviathan. The Blue instants really ruin any plans they have while I gain my advantage and the multiple different options of ressurection from the graveyard ensure that I can still play my Leviathan if it gets destroyed in any way. Some small defenders, a couple of Whispersilk Cloaks and some scry/draw effects complete the deck, giving me solid control and the shroud for extra security on my Leviathan.
In the (very casual) games I have played thus far, it's been a winning combo, but it seems a bit unfocussed for proper competitive play.
Both praetors and Thrun die from state-based effects.
SBEs resolve after the second praetor resolves. SBEs see that Thrun is at 0 toughness, and is thus placed directly into the graveyard. Regeneration cannot replace the 0 toughness event; it only deals with lethal damage. The Praetors are both placed in the graveyard as per the legendary rule
SBEs resolve after the second praetor resolves. SBEs see that Thrun is at 0 toughness, and is thus placed directly into the graveyard. Regeneration cannot replace the 0 toughness event; it only deals with lethal damage. The Praetors are both placed in the graveyard as per the legendary rule
I'm always a bit dismayed that people like playing with the more combo-oriented toys in UB and/or UG control when WU control (my favorite deck type) has the ability to grab a table by the jaw and say 'NOW EVERYONE JUST CALM THE HELL DOWN. NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING UNTIL I FIGURE THIS OUT. NO-- NO I SAID STOP IT. Okay, now I'm just going to clean up this board here aaaaaand Serratoyourfacekthnxbai.'
Lockdown ftw. That, and you get to keep your friends!
Oh, and d2m got the question right. Even posted the rules. Magic players are many things, but crummy at rules citations isn't one of them.
Lockdown ftw. That, and you get to keep your friends!
Oh, and d2m got the question right. Even posted the rules. Magic players are many things, but crummy at rules citations isn't one of them.
Everything dies, I think. Thrun dies from the 0 toughness rule, and both Elesh Norns die from the legend rule
Playing against control players, for me, is the most annoying thing. I'm sitting here with a Thraximundar in the yard and an Exhume in hand, but I know that my opponent has at least two Counterspells. *Sigh*
The regenerate would have no effect on the -2/-2, so that is out of the question. The real question is, if do static abilities of legendaries activate if there is another copy? I would assume, since they are both state based effects, and it is the Elesh's player's turn, they get priority, their effect goes off, and the Eleshes die before effect happens.
I personally enjoy fighting controllers. My Monoblack Control will kill the few creatures they comeout with, and good luck countering Inkmoth, cuz its a land! Distress also helps for taking out early artifacts/enchantments that would hurt me. Also, my old Zendikar Goblins take a big steamy dump on all but the fastest control decks. Unless they use marrow shards. Why don't more people use marrow shards again?
Same here! I used to love Aggro decks that would come out swinging early and hard, but the problem I would run into with them is that they would quickly become boring to play. And nothing would frustrate me more than being dragged out into mid or late game with little to no options.deth2munkies said:
Yes. I have them in my current standard constructed Esper Control deck and I have never once had him in my hand where he wasn't useful, especially once I have a lot of mana down.MrMixelPixel said:
A few things State Based Effects aren't a thing they're state based actions, second SBAs don't resolve, they can't resolve because they're never on the stack they just happen, third regeneration replaces destruction events not just lethal damage, and four the legend rule is a state based action.DracoSuave said:
there's so many archetypes in control these days, it's pretty great how it's evolved,
there has been a noticeable shift away from old school denial like faeries/merfolk towards hybrids that fall under control/combo or control/aggro.
you can no longer really play straight aggro, combo or control, much like how mono-colour decks are rarely competitive anymore....power comes from combining them.
Innistrad Block has actually had a really big impact on ALL the metas, much more so than the few blocks that preceded it. I can't remember the last time that so many brand new cards, many of which are commons, redefined Legacy and Modern(or extended before it) to this extent.
there has been a noticeable shift away from old school denial like faeries/merfolk towards hybrids that fall under control/combo or control/aggro.
you can no longer really play straight aggro, combo or control, much like how mono-colour decks are rarely competitive anymore....power comes from combining them.
Innistrad Block has actually had a really big impact on ALL the metas, much more so than the few blocks that preceded it. I can't remember the last time that so many brand new cards, many of which are commons, redefined Legacy and Modern(or extended before it) to this extent.
That is true, but you end up facing one with an Alpha Brawl ready to cast, it does get quite amusing. Especially if you target the Obliterator.Encaen said:Haha, yeah you definitely don't want to Phyrexian Obliterator [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222206]. "Sac 13 permanents" seems like more than just a backfire.
I plan on spending this weekend making a red/blue control/burn deck, with a bit of mana ramp and card-drawing to play a million things each turn. Also, Charmbreaker Devils (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=227668) is incredibly lulzy for this kind of thing.
(Sorry, I'm bad with forum HTML code.)
(Sorry, I'm bad with forum HTML code.)
Fifthly, none of this disputes the interpretation, so you should probably save pedantry and nitpickery for interpretations that are wrong.fanklok said: