Controversial Fire Emblem: Fates Scene Dropped From Western Releases

Dragonbums

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RaikuFA said:
Smooth Operator said:
Well if you deal with an unstable audience this is really the only solution, and I'm guessing they will need to keep doing it for the foreseeable decade or two until people grow up.
I think part of the issue is people who complained weren't the target audience. It seems its a translation error that got everyones panties in a bunch.
A translation error that was passed around and spread by people who are interested in the game. You are aware of how much this franchise exploded after the previous one right?
 

Something Amyss

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Paradoxrifts said:
Nope.

David Bowie's own claims regarding his sexuality are a matter of the public record.
Weirdly, I keep finding conflicting accounts. Almost like I'd have to cherry pick data to back up your claim.

Windknight said:
Considering the issues some people have with consent, Yes, lots of people don't think date rape is bad, or at least don't think what they did was date rape.
Especially that latter part.
 

Spartan448

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MarsAtlas said:
Spartan448 said:
There is literally no canonical evidence as to Ike being gay at any point in either Path of Radiance or Radiant Dawn. Having gay characters is one thing but it's downright petty when you take an already established character and try to use the tiniest possible circumstance to claim that character is somehow a raging homosexual.

Also, the writing for Awakening was fine. It was at least better than Sacred Stones.
Err, the final support between Ike and Soren is Soren confessing his love for Ike, breaking down crying, then Ike holding Soren while he cries and reciprocating the feeling. Then the two of them and just the two of them disappear into the sunset together.

No chance in hell that if that happened between a man and a woman that people would say that its not romantic.
And this is a perfect example of people taking something completely out of context and spinning it for their own political gain. The final support conversation between Ike and Soren is about Soren revealing that he's a Branded, human-laguz cross-breeds that are regarded by most of Tellius about as well as Nazi Germany would regard a black Soviet jew. While the Laguz hate the humans and the humans hate the Laguz, BOTH of them hate the Branded. Which is why to Soren it's a big fucking deal that he got that off his chest after who knows how many years.

There's absolutely no canonical evidence that Ike is gay. I play the Tellius games almost religiously, and I can assure you of that fact. If you want to try to use support conversations to prove your spin, I highly suggest you go back and read them again.
 
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Windknight said:
a 'class s' relationship is one you'll see in anime an manga fetishising lesbians for a male audience. Its 'pure' in that they are sweet and chaste, and won't do hanky panky, so when they 'grow out of it' they'll be ready for a proper relationship with a man.
erttheking said:
Kaimax said:
CyanCat47 said:
the fact that a conversation is one of hundreds does not make one individual scene.
That's the problem with people finding it "offensive", they only focus on one bad scene, while ignoring 9 other Romantic Support conversations that portrays Soleil having no problem having a relationship with other Male Characters.
I don't think that's the problem here. Most people seem more hung up on the fact that she got drugged and the fact that her attraction to women is very similar to a rather disturbing trend in Japan where girls flirt with other girls when they're young. So that they can move on to "Real" relationships with men.

When they're not just hung up on the entire thing just being dumb as hell that is.
Class-S is an outdated genre from the early 1900s, which was written by women for women. Of course, this stuff reflected the cultural attitudes of the authors at the time, as homosexuality became unacceptable as a result of westernization, whereas before it was tolerated and quite normal. You could say that Class-S is the precursor to the yuri genre in the 70s-90s, which also was originally targeted towards girls. The "grow out of it" or "move onto real relationship" part in Class-S really hasn't carried over.

Yuri is more male targeted these days, or at least male targeted yuri has become more mainstream, but I don't see any "disturbing trend" where the girls break up and date men. Of course some yuri does have Class-S elements, but really that genre has sailed away now. I don't find lovey-dovey and highly romanticized depictions that only go as far as making out as just platonic, and I doubt males want their shipping destroyed by some man. In things out of the yuri genre, I mean commonly there is this one girl that swoons and goes "I touched hands with Senpai!!" or a raging lesbian as a joke, but no, I don't see any crazy messages that you guys are trying to say.
 

Xenon5032

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My thoughts:
Sexist and homophobic? No.
Poorly written? Yes.
It obviously wasn't written to be sexist and homophobic, it was written by a culture with a different sense of humor and different norms and the like. Do I agree with slipping a magic potion in someone's drink? No, but it isn't as bad as people are saying.


To be honest, it should've been turned into something more like:
"Hey, Solei. I've got a potion that can help you!"
"Gimmie!" *chuggs potion*
"Wait, why are you and all the guys girls? YOU SAID THIS WOULD HELP, NOT TURN EVERY GUY INTO GIRLS!"
"YOU NEVER LET ME EXPLAIN THE POTION OR HOW IT WOULD HELP BEFORE YOU CHUGGED IT!"
*hilarity ensues*


There fixed it.
 

Erttheking

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A Fork said:
I didn't say anything about S-class, so I'm not sure why you quoted me. I'm not bringing up a genre, I'm bringing up real life expectations. And in Japan, lesbian relationships between young girls are not viewed as real relationships. They're just viewed as practice for "proper" relationships with men. And I'm seeing some uncomfortable parallels here.
 

Erttheking

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MarsAtlas said:
Remember, everyone is heterosexual until they make out with someone of the same gender. And even then they're not necessarily gay.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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Spartan448 said:
MarsAtlas said:
Spartan448 said:
There is literally no canonical evidence as to Ike being gay at any point in either Path of Radiance or Radiant Dawn. Having gay characters is one thing but it's downright petty when you take an already established character and try to use the tiniest possible circumstance to claim that character is somehow a raging homosexual.

Also, the writing for Awakening was fine. It was at least better than Sacred Stones.
Err, the final support between Ike and Soren is Soren confessing his love for Ike, breaking down crying, then Ike holding Soren while he cries and reciprocating the feeling. Then the two of them and just the two of them disappear into the sunset together.

No chance in hell that if that happened between a man and a woman that people would say that its not romantic.
And this is a perfect example of people taking something completely out of context and spinning it for their own political gain. The final support conversation between Ike and Soren is about Soren revealing that he's a Branded, human-laguz cross-breeds that are regarded by most of Tellius about as well as Nazi Germany would regard a black Soviet jew. While the Laguz hate the humans and the humans hate the Laguz, BOTH of them hate the Branded. Which is why to Soren it's a big fucking deal that he got that off his chest after who knows how many years.

There's absolutely no canonical evidence that Ike is gay. I play the Tellius games almost religiously, and I can assure you of that fact. If you want to try to use support conversations to prove your spin, I highly suggest you go back and read them again.
I think Mars is talking about the final conversation in Radiant Dawn, where they talk about how they first met, Soren essentially says Ike is his entire reason for being, and then Ike cradles Soren in his arms while he cries. Then they go off into the sunset together. That's all pretty fucking gay man.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FxGxCxSCZcE
 
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erttheking said:
A Fork said:
I didn't say anything about S-class, so I'm not sure why you quoted me. I'm not bringing up a genre, I'm bringing up real life expectations. And in Japan, lesbian relationships between young girls are not viewed as real relationships. They're just viewed as practice for "proper" relationships with men. And I'm seeing some uncomfortable parallels here.
I apologize, it's just that I thought you got that idea from the second page. Anyways I'm always going to defend anime, and I don't view Class−S relationships as a modern trope, but I know that to some degree of relationships similar to Class-S happen in real life.

Now, I know nothing about Fire Emblem, but isn't this one the one with homosexual relationships? Is it really saying something about Class-S relationships? I think we are jumping to conclusions. Soleil is bisexual. She falls in love with the female form of the MC, but says she also loves the male MC to some degree that is not specified. She probably loves both. I don't believe that Soleil is some kind of subversion of homosexuality, nor is it sending any message that homosexuality is not real love, considering the game has, or at least I hope, genuine lesbian relationships.
 

Tsun Tzu

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LifeCharacter said:
They certainly did nail how absolutely shit it was on the first page, helpfully providing the translation to show how not-straight Soleil is and just all around terrible the writing of the thing is.
Oh, hai!

I disagree with your subjective interpretation and opinion.

Bam. Refuted.



But then, I guess seeing a character that won't shut up about how much she likes girls and who goes weak in the knees just by being near them, and who admits she fell in love with the protagonist while they looked like a girl, and who the protagonist says he doesn't have to worry about her cheating with other men, as anything but the straightest of heterosexual (or maybe, if we're being really generous, as being a little curious towards girls) makes one pedantic.
Pedantic?

Since you (intentionally?) missed Van's concession ("She may be bisexual at most.") in that first post? Yes, stiflingly so.

And for being someone with a Kuroko avatar, you seem surprisingly ignorant of animu tropes...not to mention the pleeeethora of yuri undertones, skinship, groping, etc. in a whole host of shows, VNs, and manga. All done between ostensibly straight characters, I might add.

It's. Common. Place.

Sincerely, there's a lotta grey over there when it comes to this subject. Cultural divide and all that stuff.

Sky-God help some of you folks if you ever watch something like Love Lab. With the level of black and white severity you lot seem to view this nonsense, you'd likely burst a damned blood vessel every time the throngs seemingly "lust" after Riko.

[small]Edit: Seriously though. Watch Love Lab. It's adorable.[/small]
Xenon5032 said:
My thoughts:
Sexist and homophobic? No.
Poorly written? Yes.
It obviously wasn't written to be sexist and homophobic, it was written by a culture with a different sense of humor and different norms and the like. Do I agree with slipping a magic potion in someone's drink? No, but it isn't as bad as people are saying.


To be honest, it should've been turned into something more like:
"Hey, Solei. I've got a potion that can help you!"
"Gimmie!" *chuggs potion*
"Wait, why are you and all the guys girls? YOU SAID THIS WOULD HELP, NOT TURN EVERY GUY INTO GIRLS!"
"YOU NEVER LET ME EXPLAIN THE POTION OR HOW IT WOULD HELP BEFORE YOU CHUGGED IT!"
*hilarity ensues*


There fixed it.
Bingo. And that totally would have been better, imo.

I think a lot of people wouldn't be throwing this big of a bitchfit if it weren't for that one element.

But, JESUS. You people are so fucking SERIOUS about this. Like it's not a video game or something. Like it's real life. Like this actually happened. Like these aren't characters! Like it's meant to be taken super srs! Like it's a manual on how to drug your friends with magical potions or something.

I mean. You've already WON. The game was altered and the scene was removed.

Congratulations on your victory, o' pious ones.

Maybe stop being so crappy about it?
 

Kingjackl

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I don't think anybody'll be sad to lose this. On top of all the dodgy issues with it, the premise and the scene are both fucking stupid anyway.
 

mrbah

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can someone explain why they believe the game should not include the player character solving a problem in an "immoral" way?

I mean what is the motivation for saying "this fictional act this fictional character did/can do was wrong, and therefore it should not be in the english version of the game."?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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mrbah said:
can someone explain why they believe the game should not include the player character solving a problem in an "immoral" way?

I mean what is the motivation for saying "this fictional act this fictional character did/can do was wrong, and therefore it should not be in the english version of the game."?
When people don't like a thing, they tend to let the other people in charge of the thing know.

Basic customer service info. And now, people who don't like a thing are letting the other people in charge know.

In this case specifically, some people complained that one of the "good guys" drugged a "totally straight" character without their permission, and it's treated as a good thing all around. To them (and me) it has some majorly off-putting connotations and/or is bad writing for a number of reasons you can read this very thread about. The company listened and decided to take that scene out.

Now, people are complaining that the scene was taken out. Rinse and Repeat.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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mrbah said:
can someone explain why they believe the game should not include the player character solving a problem in an "immoral" way?

I mean what is the motivation for saying "this fictional act this fictional character did/can do was wrong, and therefore it should not be in the english version of the game."?
Because this is a Fire Emblem game, a series not known for its morally complicated protagonists save a couple of potential exceptions, and this game is definitely not one of them. From what I can tell, the player character in Fates is supposed to be a supremely morally upstanding individual. Drugging his own troops does not gel with that.
 

Dr. Crawver

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Fdzzaigl said:
Next on the list: banning all Grimm and other fairytales where love is found after drinking a love potion or other magical means.

Ridiculous.
Difference being, a lot of the shit going on in grimms were not depicted as being positive, rather often being extremes on a spectrum. And the parts that were are still comfortably sitting centuries behind us in the time of writing them. This has been written within the decade and yet uses stuff that we look at as "well, it's completely unacceptable, but it has historic meaning and merit".

Equating the two isn't close to fair and I would be surprised if you didn't already know that.

To summerise, as often people do just choose to misinterpret others meanings, game released within the decade is not allowed to have the historical context defence of stories written centuries ago.
 

Paradoxrifts

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MarsAtlas said:
You know its funny you say that all you need is their word.. I'm not too familiar with David Bowie, to be honest, but I'm familiar enough with sexuality to realize that sexual orientation and sexual conduct do not correlate absolutely. I checked his Wikipedia page and, surprise, he said that he wasn't gay or bi and just screwed some guys because he was curious about it. He made this statement over three decades ago. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bowie#Sexuality] So yeah, not gay or bi. Keep walking because you've found an example that actually hurts your case, not helps it.
I already acknowledged that David Bowie's own understanding of his sexuality developed and changed over time. Now I think you're right in at least so far as that it is dreadfully important that everyone else acknowledge his last statements regarding his sexuality as the truth. However the fact that David Bowie went on to describe his early behaviour as that of a 'closeted heterosexual' does little to excuse the rest of us of the important moral obligation that we should generally believe others when they make claims regarding their own personal sexual orientation.

I'm not even really claiming that the concept should be taken to the most ludicrous possible extreme. Just take people's word for it unless you have compelling evidence to believe the contrary. I do not think that it is a difficult distinction to grasp.

MarsAtlas said:
Think of it this way. I find black hair arousing. Having sex with a person who is blonde does not change that.
And I respect that. I will also respect a new claim should your circumstances change, without thinking any less of you.

Whether you've come to a new realisation that you can no longer live a lie by continuing to conceal and suppress your sexual cravings for pheomelanin-endowed redheads, or your crippling existential fear of the oblivion has curdled your wits and made you believe in an omnipresent imaginary friend that sternly disapproves of the amount of eumelanin present in the hair of your sexual partners.

Heck, I will even respect your choice to fancy bald people. You monster.

MarsAtlas said:
If the quotations on the Wikipedia page are anything to go by he, and those around him, have a pretty shitty understanding of sexual orientation, defining sexual orientation by voluntary action rather than involuntary attraction. Its just plain factually wrong and generally describing sexual orientation in that manner is usually used to demonize non-heterosexuals for not being heterosexual. See "ex-gay" people as an example. They're all still very much gay. They're all still attracted to the same sex. However, they drank some nutcase kool-aid telling them they're only gay if they engage in homosexual activity. After all, if sexual orientation weren't a choice then homophobes would just be gigantic assholes to people who've done nothing to deserve it. Can't have that, so we have to declare it as "sinful", sin being a voluntary choice, to justify mistreatment of them.
This is no doubt going to infuriate you to no end, but I'm generally pretty chill with people choosing to make what I think are bad personal decisions for silly reasons. In the age of widespread internet adoption anyone who can read English enjoys the opportunity to properly educate and inform themselves on the topic of their own sexuality. Yet this tiny minority you've mentioned continues to either disregard or ignore all of that every single waking moment of their lives, in favour of seeking out alternatives such as pseudo-scientific therapy and sending positive thoughts to an invisible despot. I would say that you can't lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, but I'm fairly certain that the horse is offshore and completely submerged at this point. They're clearly seeking an irrational answer to an irrational problem. So commanding them to be well on the back of rational thought, reasoned arguments and scientific evidence is not really ever going to help them resolve the conflict between their sexuality and their religion.

I would draw the line at when parents make their children attend conversion therapy. You can't keep adults from willfully choosing to harm themselves with bad ideas, but you can certainly protect their children from child abuse. On the whole I am generally quite skeptical of any ideologically motivated interference with childhood, simply because it takes a very long time for the results to completely manifest themselves.

MarsAtlas said:
If you knew more about sexual orientation and the presentation of it you might realize that a lot of gay people have relationships with members of the opposite sex and vice versa for heterosexual people. Hell, if you read this very thread you'd know that. Its usually done for the sake of putting on a face to avoid being mistreated for not being straight.

Edit: What I was referring to when I said that there were already examples of orientation not equating to activity in this thread. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.933141-Controversial-Fire-Emblem-Fates-Scene-Dropped-From-Western-Releases?page=2#23483720] Additionally, there's all sorts of kink that is commonly mistaken for making the participants LGBTQ. Forced bi [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=forced%20bi] is older then Bowie and there's a decent chance that thats what it was. It doesn't make one bisexual, however, anymore than genderplay [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Genderplay] makes a person transgender.
That is pretty grim to be honest. I've always been told that the Japanese are a largely conformist people despite their hundreds of fascinatingly weird subcultures, but marrying someone just to keep up social appearances is a pathological display of internalised conformity. There is a sad but very interesting parallel between how this anonymous man was coerced by peer pressure and the presumed threat of social ostracisation to modify his own behaviour to not cause offense to his cultural surroundings and how Nintendo as a company has reacted by preemptively censoring the English version of their game to also avoid causing offense. Neither Nintendo or the man are ashamed of their actions. He campaigns for gay rights. Nintendo never altered the original Japanese version. Yet they're both willing to preemptively censor their own behaviour to avoid troubling others. Nintendo might not be going home at night to a sham marriage, yet the very fact that this level of oppression is even possible demonstrates the danger inherent in promoting a culture where conformity and self-censorship are championed as virtues over individual freedom of expression or choice.

Now I can accept that within its native cultural context that the scene from this game can be interpreted as being part of a wider cultural suppression of sexual diversity in Japan. But any potential North American or European audience would experience it within their own native cultural context. Within such a native context and when held up to the light of scrutiny it is transformed rather anticlimactically to be a somewhat clumsily presented bad idea.

I'm not afraid of bad ideas. I'm far more afraid of the people who claim to want to protect me from bad ideas.
 

Magmarock

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Well we live in an age where everything is offensive and where everyone is a victim. This is why we can't have nice things.
 

Dr. Crawver

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Ukomba said:
erttheking said:
Ukomba said:
It actually sounds kind of cute. Doesn't it go to the whole, love a person for who they are not what they are thing? Seems overly sensitive.

I'm wondering what the reaction would be if it were a straight character this happened to.
I could appreciate that, but considering that a drug that altered someone's perspective and was given to her without her consent or knowledge was involved...that's just creepy on so many levels.

A magic potion, but ya that's only where the initial attraction came from. The attraction persisting after the drug wears off changes things a bit, also the purpose of the drug not being to mess with her in that way but to help her with a confidence issue. Sure done without her permission can appear a bit rapey, but if she KNEW that she were taking it, it wouldn't have worked as intended since she would know that boy is really a girl and still have the issue talking to them. I haven't played it, but I'm betting it was meant to be humorous. Feels like the world has lost it's sense of humor and is becoming really puritan.
So...it's comparable to stockholm syndrome then? I mean that takes a long to to develop, but still results in someone falling in love with someone else in an incredibly sketchy manner?

And this is the thing, if it's played up for laughs, you need to be careful with certain topics. I'm of the opinion that nothing should be off the table for comedy, but if you're going into risque topics, you need to be smart with your jokes. Simply it being a "joke" is as much of a defense as "it's just a prank, bro". They can be very funny and appropriate. Doesn't mean every attempt is, and I would say this is one that lacked the self awareness needed for it to work.