Controversial Fire Emblem: Fates Scene Dropped From Western Releases

Hades

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I see this as yet another sad example of Fire emblem Fates increased focus on fanservice being to the detriment of the game. Its sadly a bit of a trend in Fates

Why is Solei the way she is? Because ''yuri'' is popular in Japan. As a result we have the rather tasteless result of a girl who gushes over other girls until she ''grows up'' and finds the right man. She also has the exact opposite, a girl who gushes over Yahoi. As things are now neither characters seem to have anything beyond that.

The skinshipping is also a form of fanservice which got Fire emblem an embarrassing feature with no place in the series. The founder of a genre with at least 13 quality titles under its belt should not go around with so little dignity.

And speaking of little dignity: You can also marry your siblings! There is an explanation which justifies it but I find that just makes matters worse. It does not come off like that you can marry your siblings thanks to that justification but more like that we got the justification precisely because it would allow you to marry your sibling. Gross and utterly cowardly to boot.

The second gen is also fanservice brought back for the people who like it. The problem is that its got no place in the story. Thanks to that the explanation for fully adult or teenage kid is hilariously bad and has got to involve pedophilia in order to get certain children.

I don't get how IS and Nintendo decided to look at the fire emblem series and got to the conclusion that they did not have confidence in Fire Emblem. The series was always at least respected and Awakening turned it mainstream. Why the desperate pandering? It really strikes me as if the Fire Emblem team got some kind of panic attack.
 

hentropy

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Yeah this premise was shitty when Jack Black was subjected to it against his will in "Shallow Hal", and it's just as shitty now. This is putting aside how many women get date raped by something getting slipped in their drink or raped as "gay conversion" and all the children who get sent to high-tech internment camps to get tortured for being gay, all because of a cultural attitude that says that gay people can fixed with enough behavioral therapy.

Aiddon said:
And this is where I have to bring up the big, glowing elephant in the room that everyone is blind to. This was written by Japanese writers. Japan has very different views on homosexuality and people like Soleil than the West does. Soleil is essentially a "Class-S" girl at best. She's not gay or even bisexual, she just finds pretty women aesthetically pleasing. That's it. There is no reading between the lines.
That is, well, not true. I know Japan. I know Yuri. I know Class-S. It was originally designed to portray lesbianism in young adult and children's media, where societal pressures were as such that real lesbian relationships were considered just too improper to even consider. Because Japan is still a homophobic society, maybe a different sort of homophobia, but still homophobia. It's true that Class-S is not realistic lesbianism in really any way, but that doesn't mean that there's no lines to read between. Straight women are simply not super anxious to the point of fainting around other women that they admire "platonically". It's lesbianism, or at least bisexuality. They just can't say it aloud because it's media for young people.

I'm not Fire Emblem expert (never played a single game), so I can't talk in-depth about those specifics, but Class-S is a BAD thing, and illustrates a toxic attitude in Japanese society that you can be all cuddly and romantic and homo when you're a kid, get your fill of it because you're gonna have to settle down and make babies with a guy after that.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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"Darth Rosenberg:
Is class-S something in the game

How on earth does "aesthetically pleasing" translate to 'I can't do my job or function properly without being drugged into a semi gender swapped reality'?"

Yes, it is something in the game because that is what they were clearly going for. No, the characters don't call it "Class-S" in-universe because it's a fictional world not set in the modern era and thus the terminology would not yet exist but, again, anyone aware of Japanese narrative tropes (like SOMEONE FROM JAPAN) would recognize it instantly. As for fainting spells, the best way to describe it is that she gets a little too giddy over cute things, which in this case are girls. Seriously, that's it, it's like taking a girl squealing over cute animals except replacing it with other girls (and admittedly it also happens over a guy, the character Foleo specifically). For other examples of this trope look to the character Boa Hancock in One Piece, Blizzard of Hell in One Punch Man, Ayaka Kagiri in Witch Craft Works and a LOT of the cast in Claymore.

"I see a discussion."

Too bad "discussion" in gamer terms is a tizzy or hissy fit to the outside world. Which will be swiftly forgotten as gamers find something new to complain about.

hentropy said:
That is, well, not true. I know Japan. I know Yuri. I know Class-S. It was originally designed to portray lesbianism in young adult and children's media, where societal pressures were as such that real lesbian relationships were considered just too improper to even consider. Because Japan is still a homophobic society, maybe a different sort of homophobia, but still homophobia. It's true that Class-S is not realistic lesbianism in really any way, but that doesn't mean that there's no lines to read between. Straight women are simply not super anxious to the point of fainting around other women that they admire "platonically". It's lesbianism, or at least bisexuality. They just can't say it aloud because it's media for young people.
Of which I am fully aware, I was just having to keep things simple because I'd rather not get overly verbose. I just said she is a Class-S girl which, for the writers, is a way different thing than being straight-up gay or lesbian (even if they aren't aware of it). And there are bisexual characters in this game anyway such as Niles and Syalla (or whatever her name will be for overseas).

I'm not Fire Emblem expert (never played a single game), so I can't talk in-depth about those specifics, but Class-S is a BAD thing, and illustrates a toxic attitude in Japanese society that you can be all cuddly and romantic and homo when you're a kid, get your fill of it because you're gonna have to settle down and make babies with a guy after that.
Correct, it is a problem. And I never said it wasn't. Yes, I'm fully aware it was and still is a way to bypass ideas of homosexuality and lesbianism in media (or also to titillate to the fantasies of adolescent males at its worst and is endemic of a problem in Japanese society that they need to get over.) But I am also not so egotistical and ethnocentric to pretend that my country has any right to look down on Japan for this. I will at least say they're not as big into gay-bashing as we are; seriously, the lines of sexism and homophobia with us and Japan are razor thin and we are in no place to talk down to them, especially since we only recently legalized gay marriage. And again, it's just one wonky conversation in a game that is filled with scores, if not hundreds, of them. Heck, Soleil alone has loads of them where she engages in other aspects of her personality because, guess what, she's a more complex character than that. Perhaps I wouldn't mind it if there were actual sincerity about this overall with the community instead of just another way for gamers to whine. Because any time I hear gamers suddenly being "concerned" about homophobia or sexism I do not become supportive, I become suspicious considering the loads of crap the community lets slide.
 

WindKnight

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Aiddon said:
Soleil is essentially a "Class-S" girl at best. She's not gay or even bisexual, she just finds pretty women aesthetically pleasing. That's it. There is no reading between the lines.
Is class-S something in the game?
a 'class s' relationship is one you'll see in anime an manga fetishising lesbians for a male audience. Its 'pure' in that they are sweet and chaste, and won't do hanky panky, so when they 'grow out of it' they'll be ready for a proper relationship with a man.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Aiddon said:
For other examples of this trope look to the character Boa Hancock in One Piece, Blizzard of Hell in One Punch Man, Ayaka Kagiri in Witch Craft Works and a LOT of the cast in Claymore.
I practically loathe Japanese character types/tropes, so I'll take your word for it.

As someone with greater knowledge and experience of Japan's wackiness, I'll just point you to Hentropy's post (who seems to support some of my criticism of your reasoning).

Too bad "discussion" in gamer terms is a tizzy or hissy fit to the outside world. Which will be swiftly forgotten as gamers find something new to complain about. Moving on.
But this thread's perfectly reasonable, though, and it's this thread I'm talking about. No one's banging drums for bans or being 'outraged'. A fair few seem to view the scene as bad or just plain dopey writing/character narrative, but that's not the same thing as a tizzy.

(edit, as I didn't see the other post)

Windknight said:
a 'class s' relationship is one you'll see in anime an manga fetishising lesbians for a male audience. Its 'pure' in that they are sweet and chaste, and won't do hanky panky, so when they 'grow out of it' they'll be ready for a proper relationship with a man.
So pretty much as Hentropy put it, then?
 

EyeReaper

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Zontar said:
Fire Emblem:Birthsnip
MarsAtlas said:
Fire Emblem:Snipquest
I was mostly referring to the Tomodachi Life debacle. You know, the game where you can be invaded by aliens but Same-sex relationships were just too outlandish.

Can't speak of the Gamecube Characters, I could never get my hands on those games for a reasonable price, but Tharja in Awakening is optionally les, in that She's all up ons you whether MC or FeMC. Too bad it doesn't count for anything though.
 

Hagi

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Eh, reading the dialogue it seems less like bigoted writing and more like dumb writing. Either way though, not much of a loss.

Though I admit, her ditching the male protagonist to check out the men of the army who've now turned into girls got a chuckle out of me.
 

Souplex

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EyeReaper said:
Wait, holy shit they actually added gay characters? Nintendo can learn from past mistakes! It's a Christmas miracle!
Intelligent Systems went for a canonically gay protagonist in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn.
It's not explicitly stated, but it is very heavily implied.
Every lead up to that point can end the game by getting hitched to someone of the opposite sex if they finish the game with a capped support. (This even applies to 2 of the protagonists of Radiant Dawn, Miciah and Elincia) Ike however, has only 2 support endings, both with dudes where he leaves the continent to go on a journey with them. (For those familiar with Avatar: LoK, it's the equivalent of the "Friendship vacation" at the end where they provide enough plausible wiggle room that the people who would be offended can look the other way) He also rejects the amorous advances of a princess and merchant throughout the game.
...And then Awakening shat all over it with a character who is supposed to be his descendant implying there was a uterus involved.

Dear Intelligent Systems:
Please fire whoever is responsible for writing Awakening/Fates, and bring back the people who wrote Sword of Seals, Blazing Sword, (Just FE over here) and the Radiance cycle.
 
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Darth Rosenberg said:
VanQ said:
Soleil is not fucking gay. She just likes cute girls in a platonic manner. At no point in the game is it ever confirmed that she's actually homosexual. She may be bisexual at most.
I read the transcript you linked to, and from that it seems just as reasonable to reply with 'Soleil is not fucking straight' - that link made the character out to sound resolutely attracted to both genders. Women platonically faint around "cute village girls" often, do they?
Good lord, I read that transcript let's look at some quotes:
- "Around the type that I like, I end up fainting if I even go near them"
- "The truth is? a cute townie greeted me? and after that I got lightheaded?"
- "I-I?m glad you feel that way but? I have a very specific type? and besides, I mean, you?re Kamui?"
- "W-What? this feeling, it?s? kind of uncomfortable? but I?m also getting a little? excited?"
- "Hey, Kamui. Could you try saying my name?" "Solei" "C-Can you do it in a higher voice? F-For? realism?s sake?"
- "Yeah. Please do? but before that, can we take a little break?"
- "I tried to surround myself with the cute village girls. I immediately got dizzy? once they noticed, the girls looked after me."
- Kamui: "Good girl. Thank you for accepting my proposal. I?ll definitely make you happy. On that note? you can?t flirt with other guys, okay? Though I don?t think I have to worry about that with you."

Either this character is gay, she was written by the female version of Tobias Funke, or is just plainly horribly written. Because this dialogue doesn't make the slightest degree of sense otherwise.

It's kind of amusing, you practically need to fly it across the sky on a banner for people to acknowledge that a character's gay, and if you do that then you're shoving it in their face.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Lol at Nintendo. You gone done fucked up son! They are rather silly. Oh and "guis, she's not gay, she just goes weak at the knees and incredibly shy around other girls and also appreciates their form in a totaly platonic way" is a hilarious example of denial, either from the writers or the gamers. Oh Japan, you need some sex education. You got a lot to learn, maybe not in the way the 60s hit us, but really...all these curious traits do is tickle the interests of people invested in psychology. Like an open book of suppressed sexuality. Continue as you were. Or not. I don't honestly know which would be more harmful anymore.
 

Fdzzaigl

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Next on the list: banning all Grimm and other fairytales where love is found after drinking a love potion or other magical means.

Ridiculous.
 

Terminal Blue

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Aiddon said:
I will at least say they're not as big into gay-bashing as we are; seriously, the lines of sexism and homophobia with us and Japan are razor thin and we are in no place to talk down to them, especially since we only recently legalized gay marriage.
I will point at this point that Japan hasn't even got to the point of having a meaningful political debate about gay marriage.

You're correct in that homophobia takes a very different form in Japan to the way it does elsewhere. As Japanese people will proudly tell you, Japan is not a Christian country and therefore doesn't have the kind of very venomous ideological homophobia you find in countries where Christianity plays a role in politics (like the US). This does not mean, however, that the lines are razor thin.. far from it. The reason explicit gay bashing is rare in Japan (although it isn't that rare, politicians and media personalities actually engage in open homophobia quite a lot, it's just that noone comments on it because in Japan few people question that kind of behaviour) is because the average Japanese person barely believes that gay people actually exist. Like, theoretically they can understand the concept, but to them it's some weird freaky fetish which white people do on the internet. The idea that there might be thousands, let alone millions of gay people living in Japan (a country of over a hundred million people) is completely alien to the typical Japanese.

My ex-partner used to work for an LGBT campaign group in Japan. I've literally reduced a Japanese gay rights activist to tears just by talking about my life in the UK, because he had never imagined the possibility that he could live in a world where he wasn't forced to marry a woman to keep up appearances (something he has since done), where he could tell his friends and coworkers he was gay, where he could have grown up with openly gay public figures and celebrities, where he'd be able to live with a partner in rented accommodation. Tiny things which we take for granted.

Trust me, Japan is a miserable country to be gay in. It's not Saudi Arabia, but it's pretty miserable.
 

NPC009

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Fdzzaigl said:
Next on the list: banning all Grimm and other fairytales where love is found after drinking a love potion or other magical means.

Ridiculous.
Eh, that's a joke, right? Please tell me it's a joke...

Grimm's fairytales are a little over two hundred years old, and based on stories even older than that to boot! It's not 1800 anymore. We live in 2016 now. Society changed, in many ways for the better. Drugging women to claim their love is frowned upon. Heck, drugging people in general is. Please don't drug people without their consent.

Also, no one is banning anything. The creator is changing a thing, because in hindsight, the thing s kinda dumb and has weird connotations.
 

NPC009

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evilthecat said:
Trust me, Japan is a miserable country to be gay in. It's not Saudi Arabia, but it's pretty miserable.
I often meet young people who assume Japan must be an amazing place to be gay because of all the BL and yuri fiction. Few realise it's just that - fiction. Fantasies written by and for straight people. It's rare to see actual gay characters portrayed in realistic ways. Fumi Yoshinaga's What Did You Eat Yesterday is the only fairly mainstream title I can thing of. Stuff like Rica'tte Kanji, while available in English, is very much an underground comic. What else... I have a hard time thinking of any...
 

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The Almighty Aardvark said:
Darth Rosenberg said:
VanQ said:
Soleil is not fucking gay. She just likes cute girls in a platonic manner. At no point in the game is it ever confirmed that she's actually homosexual. She may be bisexual at most.
I read the transcript you linked to, and from that it seems just as reasonable to reply with 'Soleil is not fucking straight' - that link made the character out to sound resolutely attracted to both genders. Women platonically faint around "cute village girls" often, do they?
Good lord, I read that transcript let's look at some quotes:
- "Around the type that I like, I end up fainting if I even go near them"
- "The truth is? a cute townie greeted me? and after that I got lightheaded?"
- "I-I?m glad you feel that way but? I have a very specific type? and besides, I mean, you?re Kamui?"
- "W-What? this feeling, it?s? kind of uncomfortable? but I?m also getting a little? excited?"
- "Hey, Kamui. Could you try saying my name?" "Solei" "C-Can you do it in a higher voice? F-For? realism?s sake?"
- "Yeah. Please do? but before that, can we take a little break?"
- "I tried to surround myself with the cute village girls. I immediately got dizzy? once they noticed, the girls looked after me."
- Kamui: "Good girl. Thank you for accepting my proposal. I?ll definitely make you happy. On that note? you can?t flirt with other guys, okay? Though I don?t think I have to worry about that with you."

Either this character is gay, she was written by the female version of Tobias Funke, or is just plainly horribly written. Because this dialogue doesn't make the slightest degree of sense otherwise.

It's kind of amusing, you practically need to fly it across the sky on a banner for people to acknowledge that a character's gay, and if you do that then you're shoving it in their face.
Come on man, if Tobias Funke wrote this it would be way more unintentionally funny! As it is now, it's just sad.
 

Souplex

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Casual Shinji said:
The statement appears to refer to a scene in which an apparent gay character, Soleil, has her drink spiked with a "magic powder" that makes women appear to Soleil as men, and men appear as women. This is done by the protagonist, in an effort to help the character, who is having difficulty speaking with other women.
Wut?

Even disregarding the whole gay conversion angle... just, why?!

I don't know, maybe this type of convoluted writing is part of this series, cuz holy smokes!
It wasn't from '03 - '08.
The writing from Fire Emblem: No Subtitle (The first one released outside of Japan, there it was FE: Blazing Sword) through Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn was absolutely superb.

'09's remake of Shadow Dragon was blandly inoffensive in terms of writing, but that may have come from being a remake. (There are some uncomfortable weird bits like "Marth, as 's only living male descendant, only you can use the to defeat and save the world!" For some reason Marth's sister's lack of a Y chromosome is stopping her from doing it.)

2012's Awakening is where the writing takes a turn. The writing gained a focus on the weird shipping, and the characters became much more invested in Japanime character tropes.
http://awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=040813
 

Fdzzaigl

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NPC009 said:
Fdzzaigl said:
Next on the list: banning all Grimm and other fairytales where love is found after drinking a love potion or other magical means.

Ridiculous.
Eh, that's a joke, right? Please tell me it's a joke...

Grimm's fairytales are a little over two hundred years old, and based on stories even older than that to boot! It's not 1800 anymore. We live in 2016 now. Society changed, in many ways for the better. Drugging women to claim their love is frowned upon. Heck, drugging people in general is. Please don't drug people without their consent.

Also, no one is banning anything. The creator is changing a thing, because in hindsight, the thing s kinda dumb and has weird connotations.
It isn't a joke. 200 years old or not, fantasy is fantasy. The end.

People can dislike and hate it for whatever number of reasons, that's their good right. Even if a majority of the users finds that the content is stupid as fuck it should not be censored or in any way changed. Creators should throw their products out there to be judged by the public, they shouldn't change their game because they're arrogant enough to think that they know what that public wants.

At least from what this article told you, you're wrong on the account of the creator changing things because of hindsight considerations. Given that they're only changing the Western release.

I'm not saying the situation in this game is right or wrong btw. I'm just saying that people should be allowed to judge for themselves. This way nothing is learned for either the author nor the player.
 

Spartan448

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Darth Rosenberg said:
I read the transcript you linked to, and from that it seems just as reasonable to reply with 'Soleil is not fucking straight' - that link made the character out to sound resolutely attracted to both genders. Women platonically faint around "cute village girls" often, do they?
Specifically this woman does, and there's actually a justification for it. Since this justification is actually kind of huge spoilers, I'm gonna try to keep this vague until someone can tell me how to spoiler tag shit:

One of the things about FE: Fates is that more than a few of the characters happen to be returning characters from a certain recent FE game. One of these characters was a huge fucking Casanova. Solei is his kid, and let's just say "like father, like daughter".

tl;dr: No, Solei is not attracted to chicks, and if I remember the translations for some of her other supports correctly, she even states that herself. Despite that, she becomes lightheaded around other women due to her father being such a huge playboy that his constant pursuit of women became a genetic thing. It sounds dumb, but IIRC ALL of the children of returning characters mimic the exact same quirks their parents had in the game they returned from.
 

Terminal Blue

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NPC009 said:
I often meet young people who assume Japan must be an amazing place to be gay because of all the BL and yuri fiction. Few realise it's just that - fiction. Fantasies written by and for straight people.
I was speaking to someone who studies Japanese popular culture, and she actually said something very interesting (I have no idea how authentic it is). Basically, while perception amongst Western audiences tends to be that BL depicts "gay" relationships, my friend argued that from a Japanese perspective what's actually what's being depicted is straight relationships in which the "female" character is depicted as male. Japanese sexual etiquette is very restrictive for women, so basically the only way to make a sexualized female character which is palatable for a female audience is to ostensibly give them a penis.

As I said, I don't have enough personal knowledge of the genre to confirm or deny this, but it fits in with a lot of what other people have told me.