Creative freedom is dying because of the mainstream blight?

Erttheking

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Sung-Hwan said:
So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.
I just...no. Just no. Despite what you might think, Jim Sterling disagreeing with you does not make him a puppet. In fact, people disagreeing with you in general are not puppets. They are not his minions either, because people who happen to agree with Jim Sterling tend to have opinions of their own. Also you, of all people have no right to accuse people of arguing without giving context, as that is one of your biggest problems.
 

Sung-Hwan

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erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.
I just...no. Just no. Despite what you might think, Jim Sterling disagreeing with you does not make him a puppet. In fact, people disagreeing with you in general are not puppets. They are not his minions either, because people who happen to agree with Jim Sterling tend to have opinions of their own. Also you, of all people have no right to accuse people of arguing without giving context, as that is one of your biggest problems.
That's because Sterling has you under his grip, but don't deny he's a man who makes a living appeasing to what the mainstream crowd of people want to hear. That's how I always saw him, and never had too much of an issue with it. Puppet might be too negative of a term, since I don't know who he serves. Puppetmaster?

I don't know if you ever played DmC: Devil May Cry, but I thought one of its highlights was the plot point where demons controlled mainstream media to literally bend humans to their will.
 

Erttheking

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Sung-Hwan said:
erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.
I just...no. Just no. Despite what you might think, Jim Sterling disagreeing with you does not make him a puppet. In fact, people disagreeing with you in general are not puppets. They are not his minions either, because people who happen to agree with Jim Sterling tend to have opinions of their own. Also you, of all people have no right to accuse people of arguing without giving context, as that is one of your biggest problems.
That's because Sterling has you under his grip, but don't deny he's a man who makes a living appeasing to what the mainstream crowd of people want to hear. That's how I always saw him, and never had too much of an issue with it. Puppet might be too negative of a term, since I don't know who he serves. Puppetmaster?

I don't know if you ever played DmC: Devil May Cry, but I thought one of its highlights was the plot point where demons controlled mainstream media to literally bend humans to their will.
*Rubs head* oh for God's sake...you know one of the classic tactics of silencing people you disagree with is insisting that their arguments have no value, despite giving no logical reason for how you reached this conclusion. Just insist that "those people" are all wrong. I don't even agree with Jim on a lot of things, just some things. But in your book that makes me a puppet. Also, Jim appealing to the mainstream based on what they want to hear? Have you not seen the sheer number of people who disagree with him? Jim makes a career out of saying whatever the Hell he wants to say.

Ok first of all, unless the media involved taking human beings and contorting their bodies to 90 degree angles, you misused the word literally here. Second of all, DMC: Devil May Cry is hardly the first game to explore this concept, it's been in media for nearly a century now, 1984 comes to mind as the most classic example. Finally, if you want to say that I really am being brainwashed by mainstream media, it'd help if you actually backed up your argument with evidence.
 

Sung-Hwan

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erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.
I just...no. Just no. Despite what you might think, Jim Sterling disagreeing with you does not make him a puppet. In fact, people disagreeing with you in general are not puppets. They are not his minions either, because people who happen to agree with Jim Sterling tend to have opinions of their own. Also you, of all people have no right to accuse people of arguing without giving context, as that is one of your biggest problems.
That's because Sterling has you under his grip, but don't deny he's a man who makes a living appeasing to what the mainstream crowd of people want to hear. That's how I always saw him, and never had too much of an issue with it. Puppet might be too negative of a term, since I don't know who he serves. Puppetmaster?

I don't know if you ever played DmC: Devil May Cry, but I thought one of its highlights was the plot point where demons controlled mainstream media to literally bend humans to their will.
*Rubs head* oh for God's sake...you know one of the classic tactics of silencing people you disagree with is insisting that their arguments have no value, despite giving no logical reason for how you reached this conclusion. Just insist that "those people" are all wrong. I don't even agree with Jim on a lot of things, just some things. But in your book that makes me a puppet. Also, Jim appealing to the mainstream based on what they want to hear? Have you not seen the sheer number of people who disagree with him? Jim makes a career out of saying whatever the Hell he wants to say.

Ok first of all, unless the media involved taking human beings and contorting their bodies to 90 degree angles, you misused the word literally here. Second of all, DMC: Devil May Cry is hardly the first game to explore this concept, it's been in media for nearly a century now, 1984 comes to mind as the most classic example. Finally, if you want to say that I really am being brainwashed by mainstream media, it'd help if you actually backed up your argument with evidence.
There's a reason the conspiracy of mainstream brainwashing exists and far predates DmC like you said; it's exactly for the same reasons I think.

My other most defining trait is my great hatred for anything mainstream, in any shape or form. Mainstream media, be it even mainstream in niches, is an endless cycle of controversy kept turning by the founders of society; be it the ?- or other intelligence agencies, I can only speculate who is pulling the strings. The people lured by mainstream media are slaves to consumerism, being easily manipulated to feed the fires of controversy. Infamous concepts such as feminism, censorship, and memes are possibly propagated by our founders to further aid in keeping the fire burning. Everything serves a purpose in ensuring this mysterious cycle lives; while you may see someone like Anita Sarkeesian, as little more than insane, that contempt you feel proves she is fulfilling her purpose as an agent of controversy. I do not know why the cycle exists, and frankly, no ordinary person may know. It could be speculated that mainstream intrigues exist to prevent entropy. After all, humans would fall into a state of mundanity if nothing riled them through living.

Conspiracy theory or not, the subject of a greater evil controlling society through mainstream media is popular in fiction; some even portraying the antagonists as actual demons. This is all spawned from the simple fact that there are too many secrets hidden from us in the world, and people resort to speculating and writing to find certain closure; I have faith in what I believe in, and am satisfied overall?
 

IceForce

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Sung-Hwan said:
If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.
Are you even being serious with your posts anymore? Because you're doing yourself no favors by making comments like this.
 

Erttheking

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Sung-Hwan said:
Of course there's a reason the conspiracy theory exists. The question is that if it's a GOOD reason. I mean it's a widely accepted that media influences behavior, but to outright brainwash? Yeah no.

You hate anything mainstream? Anything that's popular? That doesn't make any logical sense, period. You're not hating something for it's overall quality, you're hating it from how popular it is. If I gave you two games of near equal quality, then after you played them I told you one was really popular and the other flew under the radar, it would be irrational for you to hate the popular one. Anita as insane. For the love of God I don't see the hatred everyone has for her? Insane? I find her videos to be dull, boring, and underwhelming, which should probably say a lot about the attitude towards feminism that people can say the most dull and uncontroversial things and people will still label them as extremists. Really with things like that I wonder why any feminists at all bother holding back. And you go off randomly about how people are slaves to mainstream media and slaves to consumerism, once again, without anything to really back it up. Really it just comes off as you saying that you're better for other people because you do things differently from them, which simply isn't true.

No, it's a conspiracy theory, because conspiracy theories have no solid evidence backing them up and only exist because people want them to be true. You just want the concept of a brainwashing media to be true because it would make you right and everyone else wrong. Well, that's not the world we live in.
 

Story

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IceForce said:
Sung-Hwan said:
If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.
Are you even being serious with your posts anymore? Because you're doing yourself no favors by making comments like this.
That's pretty much how I feel after reading this whole thread from the background. The OP has made this point more or less in his other posts and even then he is pretty antagonistic but he was becoming a little less so. Then he draws up those conclusions in his posts and suddenly there is an argument revolving Jim. I even agree with some of his points though I think it is a little more complicated than blaming "the mainstream" or "feminists". At the very least I think discussing creativity in the gaming market is a worthy topic. That's all moot though as I feel if I tried to voice my opinion on this thread I'd just be insulted by the OP. He seems to be so headstrong in his ways too so there is no real point in talking about it unless you agree with him completely.
 

Augustine

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Long-long time ago Square was an innovative company, full of ideas and energy, creating things that people did not know were possible in video games. Old FF blew people's mind way back when. Stuff like "Live A Live" I still consider the most creatively designed JRPG to this day.

Today's Square is not that company. And that's the reason it is not doing well.
 

Erttheking

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Sung-Hwan said:
So by your logic a series can only have a bad fanbase if it's popular. Because Dark Souls is a niche game and as a fan of that game I'm not afraid that parts fanbase can be insufferably smug and elitist. You are running off of stereotypes, pure and simple. News flash buddy, everyone complains. Check out the TV Tropes page for SMT IV and see the long laundry list of problems people have with the game. Same with the Dark Souls fanbase and their problems with Dark Souls II, the Suikoden fanbase and their problems with Suikoden IV, the Kingdom Hearts fanbase and their hatred of the idea of Marvel characters being in the game. Plenty of people complained about these, the small size of the fanbase doing absolutely nothing to stop them "whining" as you so elegantly put it. Because fandoms always complain about the games they like People always complain about everything, small fanbases don't stop complaining just because you think they don't.

And I'm gonna be frank, your concept of an ideal fanbase seems to be one that just swallows up everything that they're given without ever complaining about it. Didn't you just get done complaining about a brainwashing mainstream media.

Speaking of which, you gotta pick one. Are "bad" fans whiny brats who are never satisfied or do they just mindlessly consume, because you're arguing both and they kind of contradict each other.
 

PainInTheAssInternet

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Sung-Hwan said:
I don't hate good entertainment for merely being popular; it's the vile people that come in. Point example can be how SMT, even with Persona's backing, is a niche series with a tight community that is generally pleasant. Final Fantasy, however, is a massive multi media franchise that's too large to have any tight community; it's community is mostly composed of the human filth that always whines, complains, and will never be satisfied. It's also subject to hounding by corrupt press (gaming journalism like IGN) just for its status, whereas this corruption doesn't spread vocally to SMT and is rather quiet.
So you have an issue with vile people that complain a lot and cannot stand other opinions? I want you to tell me what exactly you think you are and what you're doing.
 

Sung-Hwan

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erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
So by your logic a series can only have a bad fanbase if it's popular. Because Dark Souls is a niche game and as a fan of that game I'm not afraid that parts fanbase can be insufferably smug and elitist. You are running off of stereotypes, pure and simple. News flash buddy, everyone complains. Check out the TV Tropes page for SMT IV and see the long laundry list of problems people have with the game. Same with the Dark Souls fanbase and their problems with Dark Souls II, the Suikoden fanbase and their problems with Suikoden IV, the Kingdom Hearts fanbase and their hatred of the idea of Marvel characters being in the game. Plenty of people complained about these, the small size of the fanbase doing absolutely nothing to stop them "whining" as you so elegantly put it. Because fandoms always complain about the games they like People always complain about everything, small fanbases don't stop complaining just because you think they don't.
But the most important fact is for the problems these small fanbases may have, they don't dictate changes from their creator; hence Atlus doing what they like and making games like Catherine and even SMT for that matter, something that no Americans at large will generally buy.

Square Enix though, is listening too much to what their fans complain about and try to keep spinning their games to what their fans like; thus going back to the point of what I said with creative freedom being shackled.
 

Erttheking

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Sung-Hwan said:
erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
So by your logic a series can only have a bad fanbase if it's popular. Because Dark Souls is a niche game and as a fan of that game I'm not afraid that parts fanbase can be insufferably smug and elitist. You are running off of stereotypes, pure and simple. News flash buddy, everyone complains. Check out the TV Tropes page for SMT IV and see the long laundry list of problems people have with the game. Same with the Dark Souls fanbase and their problems with Dark Souls II, the Suikoden fanbase and their problems with Suikoden IV, the Kingdom Hearts fanbase and their hatred of the idea of Marvel characters being in the game. Plenty of people complained about these, the small size of the fanbase doing absolutely nothing to stop them "whining" as you so elegantly put it. Because fandoms always complain about the games they like People always complain about everything, small fanbases don't stop complaining just because you think they don't.
But the most important fact is for the problems these small fanbases may have, they don't dictate changes from their creator; hence Atlus doing what they like and making games like Catherine, something that no American will ever buy.

Square Enix though, is listening too much to what their fans complain about and try to keep spinning their games to what their fans like; thus going back to the point of what I said with creative freedom being shackled.
You know criticism is always criticism, it doesn't automatically become dictate just because you disagree with it. Something no American will buy? And people who create entertainment NEED feedback, otherwise they'd just lock themselves in an echo chamber and never improve. Catherine? Uh, I hate to tell you but plenty of Americans DID by the game. Nearly TWICE as many as Japanese gamers for the matter.

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=catherine

.45 million in North America. .23 million in Japan. Really, you keep making these massive claims but a few minutes on google shows me just how little evidence is backing up your arguments.

Square Enix is listening to their fans? Funny because I've talked to quite a few of their fans and the general opinion that I'm getting is that Square Enix is shoving its fingers in its ears, going "LALALALALALLALA" and stubbornly marching forward. Also I've yet to hear a convincing argument why listening to your fans is a bad thing. As a writer, I would like to dispel the myth that people who create are infallible, because someones we need an extra perspective to realize what we thought was a good idea was a massive fuck up.

Also you haven't answered my question yet. Are "bad" fans people who mindlessly follow mainstream media or who never stop complaining?
 

Sung-Hwan

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erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
So by your logic a series can only have a bad fanbase if it's popular. Because Dark Souls is a niche game and as a fan of that game I'm not afraid that parts fanbase can be insufferably smug and elitist. You are running off of stereotypes, pure and simple. News flash buddy, everyone complains. Check out the TV Tropes page for SMT IV and see the long laundry list of problems people have with the game. Same with the Dark Souls fanbase and their problems with Dark Souls II, the Suikoden fanbase and their problems with Suikoden IV, the Kingdom Hearts fanbase and their hatred of the idea of Marvel characters being in the game. Plenty of people complained about these, the small size of the fanbase doing absolutely nothing to stop them "whining" as you so elegantly put it. Because fandoms always complain about the games they like People always complain about everything, small fanbases don't stop complaining just because you think they don't.
But the most important fact is for the problems these small fanbases may have, they don't dictate changes from their creator; hence Atlus doing what they like and making games like Catherine, something that no American will ever buy.

Square Enix though, is listening too much to what their fans complain about and try to keep spinning their games to what their fans like; thus going back to the point of what I said with creative freedom being shackled.
You know criticism is always criticism, it doesn't automatically become dictate just because you disagree with it. Something no American will buy? And people who create entertainment NEED feedback, otherwise they'd just lock themselves in an echo chamber and never improve. Catherine? Uh, I hate to tell you but plenty of Americans DID by the game. Nearly TWICE as many as Japanese gamers for the matter.

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=catherine

.45 million in North America. .23 million in Japan. Really, you keep making these massive claims but a few minutes on google shows me just how little evidence is backing up your arguments.

Square Enix is listening to their fans? Funny because I've talked to quite a few of their fans and the general opinion that I'm getting is that Square Enix is shoving its fingers in its ears, going "LALALALALALLALA" and stubbornly marching forward. Also I've yet to hear a convincing argument why listening to your fans is a bad thing. As a writer, I would like to dispel the myth that people who create are infallible, because someones we need an extra perspective to realize what we thought was a good idea was a massive fuck up.
Nah criticism is what you call well thought out feedback with a healthy amount of context; something creators would do well do listen to. The "criticism" Square Enix is catering to is this, and don't bullshit when you say you don't see this when you visit Youtube.

"OMG FINAL FANTASY DEAD I WANT FF7 REMAKE FUCKING GONNA KILL A ***** LOL THIS GAME FUCKING SUCKS RIP LEWL"

It's why, while it wasn't their total intention, I applauded their unintentional trolling of those unpleasant fans during the FF7 *chuckle* "remake" announcement.
 

Erttheking

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Sung-Hwan said:
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that isn't actually what the majority of the Final Fantasy fanbase looks like and I'm pretty sure you're stereotyping them into something to easily make fun of. In other words you're using a strawman argument. Also, no one who has been on the internet for more than a month goes to Youtube for constructive criticism.

Also, you've been making several contradictions. Are bad fans people who mindlessly follow mainstream media and buy whatever, or do they never stop complaining about things they like? Because the two kinda contradict each other.
 

Cowabungaa

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Sung-Hwan said:
Final Fantasy, however, is a massive multi media franchise that's too large to have any tight community; it's community is mostly composed of the human filth that always whines, complains, and will never be satisfied.
Setting aside everything else you've said, you do realize that just by saying the part that I put in bold there pretty much robs your point of all legitimacy, right?

But what does it matter anyway? Your point is one of faith, not one of ratio. You've even said it, quite literally:

Sung-Hwan said:
I have faith in what I believe in, and am satisfied overall?
You're not even slightly interested in learning through dialogue, you've proven as much here. So what are you even doing here making this thread? Why should we even respond?
 

Casual Shinji

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erttheking said:
I wish to award you with a tolerance medal for being able to calmly argue with this fellow as long as you did. You're a better man than I am, ert.
 

Sung-Hwan

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erttheking said:
Sung-Hwan said:
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that isn't actually what the majority of the Final Fantasy fanbase looks like and I'm pretty sure you're stereotyping them into something to easily make fun of. In other words you're using a strawman argument. Also, no one who has been on the internet for more than a month goes to Youtube for constructive criticism.

Also, you've been making several contradictions. Are bad fans people who mindlessly follow mainstream media and buy whatever, or do they never stop complaining about things they like? Because the two kinda contradict each other.
"Also, you've been making several contradictions. Are bad fans people who mindlessly follow mainstream media and buy whatever, or do they never stop complaining about things they like? Because the two kinda contradict each other."

Both. What you have to understand is the mainstream crowd, for all their bitching and moaning (see CoD), will buy whatever the companies shovel out because they're such mindless slaves to consumerism. It's only after this stick runs dry do they sort of catch on and stop, though when it dries it really does vary; people still buy Call of Duty rehashes for example, while the stick for the XIII trilogy dried out at Lightning Returns.
 

IceForce

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"human filth"? Seriously OP?

Why is it that you always seem to stand head and shoulders above everyone else on this forum when it comes to being disdainful and derisive?
 

Erttheking

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Sung-Hwan said:
Yeah, that doesn't work. How do you know that the same people that constantly complain about the staleness of CoD actually by the game? Check out the recent CoD thread in gaming discussion and you see that plenty don't. Also, you can buy a game, like it, and STILL complain about it, plenty of people do it for just about every game. You're doing the exact same thing that you've done this entire thread, go purely off of sterotypes. And please stop talking about mindless slaves to consumerism, it's plain old hyperbole.
 

visiblenoise

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I think the mainstream develops quite organically, and to think that it would somehow be possible to actively "fight" it is foolish.

I wouldn't exactly claim that games aren't art, but in this respect, especially when so many of the players think they deserve any kind of creative control, I could never, ever agree that they are.