Crowfall - Anyone else interested in this?

tragicnumberone

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BloatedGuppy said:
tragicnumberone said:
Crowfall does not have the same costs as a standard MMO. The two main costs in MMOs are PvE content (raids, quests, events etc.), and making the actual world. Crowfall has neither of these expenses. All the content is PvP driven, and all the world(s) are randomly generated.
As it is your game, you're going to be more conversant with its costs than the rest of us, but one cannot just winkle their nose and create compelling game worlds out of thin air. I cannot imagine there would not be significant costs to do properly.

Your other major issue, of course, is having an entirely PvP focused game. It's absolutely essential to hit and maintain a high concurrent player base in a PvP only title, or you'll get sucked into the death spiral of "no one is playing because no one is playing". Without much money to spend on marketing, how do you get the game into as many hands as possible? Huge, well funded games like Warhammer Online were on their last legs months after release, in large part because they lacked sustainable populations. Indeed, this problem has plagued almost every post WoW MMO, including The Old Republic, and lead directly to the proliferation of free to play models just to get butts in seats (often with minimal and short term success). And these games had robust PvE content..."other players" were not the entirety of what was on offer.

I wish you all the luck in the world, this is a genre badly in need of invigoration and I have absolutely nothing against the game or the concept of the game. It's just a murderous space to try and compete in.
I would like to stress: No one ever said that RNG is costless. What people do say, thought, is that it costs a lot less, both short-term and long-term.

As to your PvP focus and player retention point: You are 100% correct. Ensuring that there is a strong player-base is Vital to any MMO, ESPECIALLY a PvP-only one. However, your point starts to fall apart when you say:

"Without much money to spend on marketing, how do you get the game into as many hands as possible?"

You assume that the only way to get a good sized player-base is through spending money on marketing. This simply isnt true. The kickstarer alone generated a ton of hype, and, as I will reference again bellow, the absolutely rabid fan-base spreads the word far and wide across the vast plains of the internet. Another advantage Crowfall has against suffering from a shrinking player-base is that its a niche game with (as I said before) a rabid fan-base. The niche nature ensures that it doesn't need massive player-counts to ensure success; and the rabid fan-base means retention will likely be very good. (This is only compounded with the 60$ buy-in. So if you pay, you want your money's worth and will play for a long time).

There are lots of other unique systems in Crowfall that combat these issues, so I wouldn't shun it away so quickly!
 

BloatedGuppy

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tragicnumberone said:
You assume that the only way to get a good sized player-base is through spending money on marketing. This simply isnt true. The kickstarer alone generated a ton of hype, and, as I will reference again bellow, the absolutely rabid fan-base spreads the word far and wide across the vast plains of the internet. Another advantage Crowfall has against suffering from a shrinking player-base is that its a niche game with (as I said before) a rabid fan-base. The niche nature ensures that it doesn't need massive player-counts to ensure success; and the rabid fan-base means retention will likely be very good. (This is only compounded with the 60$ buy-in. So if you pay, you want your money's worth and will play for a long time).

There are lots of other unique systems in Crowfall that combat these issues, so I wouldn't shun it away so quickly!
With all due respect to the rabidness of your fan base, are you contending that your fan base is larger and more rabid than...Warhammer fans? Star Trek fans? STAR WARS fans? None of those IPs helped their titles find the critical mass they needed for success (although the Old Republic eventually found new life as a predatory FTP title), they all suffered server closures, mass player exodus, and in one case the eventual shuttering of the game. 200,000 people might turn out to buy your game, but the most popular games in the entire genre barely retain 10% of that past the first few months, and maybe 10% of THAT is actually playing the game concurrently at any given time.

I'm curious to see how Crowfall, Camelot Unchained and that abomination Garriott is working on perform. It would be fair to say as a fan of the genre that the last 20 years have been somewhat disillusioning when it comes to getting enthused about newly announced MMOs. When they're not vaporware, they tend to fall down and break their dick on the starting line. I do, however, wish you the very best of luck. Any new blood is good blood.
 

tragicnumberone

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BloatedGuppy said:
tragicnumberone said:
You assume that the only way to get a good sized player-base is through spending money on marketing. This simply isnt true. The kickstarer alone generated a ton of hype, and, as I will reference again bellow, the absolutely rabid fan-base spreads the word far and wide across the vast plains of the internet. Another advantage Crowfall has against suffering from a shrinking player-base is that its a niche game with (as I said before) a rabid fan-base. The niche nature ensures that it doesn't need massive player-counts to ensure success; and the rabid fan-base means retention will likely be very good. (This is only compounded with the 60$ buy-in. So if you pay, you want your money's worth and will play for a long time).

There are lots of other unique systems in Crowfall that combat these issues, so I wouldn't shun it away so quickly!
With all due respect to the rabidness of your fan base, are you contending that your fan base is larger and more rabid than...Warhammer fans? Star Trek fans? STAR WARS fans? None of those IPs helped their titles find the critical mass they needed for success (although the Old Republic eventually found new life as a predatory FTP title), they all suffered server closures, mass player exodus, and in one case the eventual shuttering of the game. 200,000 people might turn out to buy your game, but the most popular games in the entire genre barely retain 10% of that past the first few months, and maybe 10% of THAT is actually playing the game concurrently at any given time.

I'm curious to see how Crowfall, Camelot Unchained and that abomination Garriott is working on perform. It would be fair to say as a fan of the genre that the last 20 years have been somewhat disillusioning when it comes to getting enthused about newly announced MMOs. When they're not vaporware, they tend to fall down and break their dick on the starting line. I do, however, wish you the very best of luck. Any new blood is good blood.
The big difference between Crowfall and those failed games is that none of those games were a true "starX" games, or true "Warhammer" games. They were "WoW but with StarX" or "WoW but with Warhammer". Of course the players left. They came for Star Trek/Wars and got WoW. Crowfall, however, is 100% Organic, Vegan, AND Gluten-Free PvP MMO. The Fluff (Story, aesthetic, etc.) is not plastered over, but is integral to the Gameplay. Every single aspect is united, and the entire Crowfall vision, not just single parts of it, is shared by its rabid fan-base.

At this point, the above is nothing but propagandizing, but the core point still stands. The fans of those failed games didn't come to them for the soon-to-fail game, they came for the shiny bits plastered over it. In CrowFall, the fans are where they are, not just for the shiny bits, or the underlying game; they are there for all of it. What little there is that they don't like they still benefit from anyway because it enhances their preferred section. This more united and direct philosophy means Crowfall is not vulnerable to the same traps that the other games fell into. Crwofall studied past mistakes and came up with fantastic solutions to them.
 

Loonyyy

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tragicnumberone said:
The big difference between Crowfall and those failed games is that none of those games were a true "starX" games, or true "Warhammer" games. They were "WoW but with StarX" or "WoW but with Warhammer". Of course the players left. They game for Star Trek/Wars and got WoW. Crowfall, however, is 100% Organic, Vegan, AND Gluten-Free PvP MMO. The Fluff (Story, aesthetic, etc.) is not plastered over, but is integral to the Gameplay. Every single aspect is united, and the entire Crowfall vision, not just single parts of it, is shared by its rabid fan-base.

At this point, the above is nothing but propagandizing, but the core point still stands. The fans of those failed games didn't come to them for the soon-to-fail game, they came for the shiny bits plastered over it. In CrowFall, the fans are where they are, not just for the shiny bits, or the underlying game; they are there for all of it. What little there is that they don't like they still benefit from anyway because it enhances their preferred section. This more united and direct philosophy means Crowfall is not vulnerable to the same traps that the other games fell into. Crwofall studied past mistakes and came up with fantastic solutions to them.
I want to believe that, but I don't think it's really likely.

To be honest, it feels less like they studied past mistakes and came up less with "fantastic solutions" and instead just created a bunch of new mistakes. I like the idea, I liked the promotional content I saw before, but I don't know that it's going to work out. As was pointed out, "rabid" youtube comments and kickstarter interest don't equal a successful game. The proof is in the pudding, whether it can maintain a good player count post launch. People were saying exactly the same things about Wildstar not that long back. And a rabid fanbase doesn't exactly mean delivery (Can we think of a better word than rabid? Engaged would be more accurate, and we don't know if they're engaged until it comes out), look at "Overgrowth". It grew out of the fanbase for Lugaru, and instead became possibly the first failed crowdfunded vaporware lost to poor development. There were people so rabid there that years and years on, with only a rapidly aging homemade engine and buggy broken arena mode to go on, they're still following patches, and art style studies. Seriously, fuck Overgrowth. I was in high school when I put down money for that.

I'm especially interested to see how the PVP focus works out. I genuinely like that approach, like EVE Online, or more recently Life is Feudal and a few others, but it does rely on the playerbase, and whether the content is engaging enough. The procedural generation is really cool, I love that stuff, but you do still need to maintain servers, and for some of us, that's a big problem, because you rely on having local servers for a tolerable connection, especially for PVP. And whether the game can monetise successfully in the long run to stay up and running, at a high grade, is very much in question. I'd like to see it work, like, the pessimism isn't because I hate it. It's because it'd be nice, but there is a long list of challenges to overcome before that's even near happening.

I'll be keen to see how it works out, but I'm not holding my breath. Caution and you don't get burned.
 

tragicnumberone

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Loonyyy said:
tragicnumberone said:
The big difference between Crowfall and those failed games is that none of those games were a true "starX" games, or true "Warhammer" games. They were "WoW but with StarX" or "WoW but with Warhammer". Of course the players left. They game for Star Trek/Wars and got WoW. Crowfall, however, is 100% Organic, Vegan, AND Gluten-Free PvP MMO. The Fluff (Story, aesthetic, etc.) is not plastered over, but is integral to the Gameplay. Every single aspect is united, and the entire Crowfall vision, not just single parts of it, is shared by its rabid fan-base.

At this point, the above is nothing but propagandizing, but the core point still stands. The fans of those failed games didn't come to them for the soon-to-fail game, they came for the shiny bits plastered over it. In CrowFall, the fans are where they are, not just for the shiny bits, or the underlying game; they are there for all of it. What little there is that they don't like they still benefit from anyway because it enhances their preferred section. This more united and direct philosophy means Crowfall is not vulnerable to the same traps that the other games fell into. Crwofall studied past mistakes and came up with fantastic solutions to them.
I want to believe that, but I don't think it's really likely.

To be honest, it feels less like they studied past mistakes and came up less with "fantastic solutions" and instead just created a bunch of new mistakes. I like the idea, I liked the promotional content I saw before, but I don't know that it's going to work out. As was pointed out, "rabid" youtube comments and kickstarter interest don't equal a successful game. The proof is in the pudding, whether it can maintain a good player count post launch. People were saying exactly the same things about Wildstar not that long back. And a rabid fanbase doesn't exactly mean delivery (Can we think of a better word than rabid? Engaged would be more accurate, and we don't know if they're engaged until it comes out), look at "Overgrowth". It grew out of the fanbase for Lugaru, and instead became possibly the first failed crowdfunded vaporware lost to poor development. There were people so rabid there that years and years on, with only a rapidly aging homemade engine and buggy broken arena mode to go on, they're still following patches, and art style studies. Seriously, fuck Overgrowth. I was in high school when I put down money for that.

I'm especially interested to see how the PVP focus works out. I genuinely like that approach, like EVE Online, or more recently Life is Feudal and a few others, but it does rely on the playerbase, and whether the content is engaging enough. The procedural generation is really cool, I love that stuff, but you do still need to maintain servers, and for some of us, that's a big problem, because you rely on having local servers for a tolerable connection, especially for PVP. And whether the game can monetise successfully in the long run to stay up and running, at a high grade, is very much in question. I'd like to see it work, like, the pessimism isn't because I hate it. It's because it'd be nice, but there is a long list of challenges to overcome before that's even near happening.

I'll be keen to see how it works out, but I'm not holding my breath. Caution and you don't get burned.
I 100% understand this point of view. However, I would like to say that some of the fear you voice here is more reflexive then informed (Not that there is anything wrong with that. No one could possibly spend 100s hours on forums and news sites studying every product they happen by). Anyway... The development team is experienced and they have the funding to put that experience to good use. They have put up a damn good set of tests so far, and have one of the most transparent development cycles I have ever seen from a game-dev team.

But, like you said though, you can never be too cautious. Should (hopefully) the game succeed, I hope to briefly see you on the roadside before mercilessly robbing you ;)

P.S. The moment you said "The proof is in the pudding" I read your comment with a a total-biscuit voice.
 

meiam

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Apr 19, 2020
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There is one silver lining that's probably going to get me to buy the game (after watching review and let's play and waiting for the initial first week rush). The ability to get desperately creative.

Usual mmo, the dev can't really do anything if there number plummet, but crowfall might be able to try some crazy stuff in desperation to keep the game running.
 

tragicnumberone

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Meiam said:
There is one silver lining that's probably going to get me to buy the game (after watching review and let's play and waiting for the initial first week rush). The ability to get desperately creative.

Usual mmo, the dev can't really do anything if there number plummet, but crowfall might be able to try some crazy stuff in desperation to keep the game running.
The devs specifically boasted crazy different worlds as a selling point. The example they gave was a "centaur only world". They also gave a brief mention to a world in which gunpowder is introduced. If they wanted, they could make a world which is designed to mimic a scale version of the Iberian peninsula!
In fact, if they want to be really crazy. They could have a centaur only gun-powder equipped Iberian peninsula replica world!
 

happyninja42

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tragicnumberone said:
Meiam said:
There is one silver lining that's probably going to get me to buy the game (after watching review and let's play and waiting for the initial first week rush). The ability to get desperately creative.

Usual mmo, the dev can't really do anything if there number plummet, but crowfall might be able to try some crazy stuff in desperation to keep the game running.
The devs specifically boasted crazy different worlds as a selling point. The example they gave was a "centaur only world". They also gave a brief mention to a world in which gunpowder is introduced. If they wanted, they could make a world which is designed to mimic a scale version of the Iberian peninsula!
In fact, if they want to be really crazy. They could have a centaur only gun-powder equipped Iberian peninsula replica world!
It definitely has room for experimentation, that's for sure. I remember hearing from one of the developers that the neat thing about their world building methodology, is that they can try out stuff, and if it just doesn't work? Well no big deal, that world will eventually end, and they can say "Ok, note to self, never do that thing again, it sucked." And move on to the next one.
 

Loonyyy

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tragicnumberone said:
Loonyyy said:
tragicnumberone said:
The big difference between Crowfall and those failed games is that none of those games were a true "starX" games, or true "Warhammer" games. They were "WoW but with StarX" or "WoW but with Warhammer". Of course the players left. They game for Star Trek/Wars and got WoW. Crowfall, however, is 100% Organic, Vegan, AND Gluten-Free PvP MMO. The Fluff (Story, aesthetic, etc.) is not plastered over, but is integral to the Gameplay. Every single aspect is united, and the entire Crowfall vision, not just single parts of it, is shared by its rabid fan-base.

At this point, the above is nothing but propagandizing, but the core point still stands. The fans of those failed games didn't come to them for the soon-to-fail game, they came for the shiny bits plastered over it. In CrowFall, the fans are where they are, not just for the shiny bits, or the underlying game; they are there for all of it. What little there is that they don't like they still benefit from anyway because it enhances their preferred section. This more united and direct philosophy means Crowfall is not vulnerable to the same traps that the other games fell into. Crwofall studied past mistakes and came up with fantastic solutions to them.
I want to believe that, but I don't think it's really likely.

To be honest, it feels less like they studied past mistakes and came up less with "fantastic solutions" and instead just created a bunch of new mistakes. I like the idea, I liked the promotional content I saw before, but I don't know that it's going to work out. As was pointed out, "rabid" youtube comments and kickstarter interest don't equal a successful game. The proof is in the pudding, whether it can maintain a good player count post launch. People were saying exactly the same things about Wildstar not that long back. And a rabid fanbase doesn't exactly mean delivery (Can we think of a better word than rabid? Engaged would be more accurate, and we don't know if they're engaged until it comes out), look at "Overgrowth". It grew out of the fanbase for Lugaru, and instead became possibly the first failed crowdfunded vaporware lost to poor development. There were people so rabid there that years and years on, with only a rapidly aging homemade engine and buggy broken arena mode to go on, they're still following patches, and art style studies. Seriously, fuck Overgrowth. I was in high school when I put down money for that.

I'm especially interested to see how the PVP focus works out. I genuinely like that approach, like EVE Online, or more recently Life is Feudal and a few others, but it does rely on the playerbase, and whether the content is engaging enough. The procedural generation is really cool, I love that stuff, but you do still need to maintain servers, and for some of us, that's a big problem, because you rely on having local servers for a tolerable connection, especially for PVP. And whether the game can monetise successfully in the long run to stay up and running, at a high grade, is very much in question. I'd like to see it work, like, the pessimism isn't because I hate it. It's because it'd be nice, but there is a long list of challenges to overcome before that's even near happening.

I'll be keen to see how it works out, but I'm not holding my breath. Caution and you don't get burned.
I 100% understand this point of view. However, I would like to say that some of the fear you voice here is more reflexive then informed (Not that there is anything wrong with that. No one could possibly spend 100s hours on forums and news sites studying every product they happen by). Anyway... The development team is experienced and they have the funding to put that experience to good use. They have put up a damn good set of tests so far, and have one of the most transparent development cycles I have ever seen from a game-dev team.

But, like you said though, you can never be too cautious. Should (hopefully) the game succeed, I hope to briefly see you on the roadside before mercilessly robbing you ;)

P.S. The moment you said "The proof is in the pudding" I read your comment with a a total-biscuit voice.
Oh, don't worry. I fully intend to be checking this one out. They're doing too much fun stuff to not give it a go.

I just hope that I can manage some good latency so I can rob you back, and that there are enough people around to witness my overwhelming victory :)
 

tragicnumberone

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Aug 23, 2015
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Loonyyy said:
tragicnumberone said:
Loonyyy said:
tragicnumberone said:
The big difference between Crowfall and those failed games is that none of those games were a true "starX" games, or true "Warhammer" games. They were "WoW but with StarX" or "WoW but with Warhammer". Of course the players left. They game for Star Trek/Wars and got WoW. Crowfall, however, is 100% Organic, Vegan, AND Gluten-Free PvP MMO. The Fluff (Story, aesthetic, etc.) is not plastered over, but is integral to the Gameplay. Every single aspect is united, and the entire Crowfall vision, not just single parts of it, is shared by its rabid fan-base.

At this point, the above is nothing but propagandizing, but the core point still stands. The fans of those failed games didn't come to them for the soon-to-fail game, they came for the shiny bits plastered over it. In CrowFall, the fans are where they are, not just for the shiny bits, or the underlying game; they are there for all of it. What little there is that they don't like they still benefit from anyway because it enhances their preferred section. This more united and direct philosophy means Crowfall is not vulnerable to the same traps that the other games fell into. Crwofall studied past mistakes and came up with fantastic solutions to them.
I want to believe that, but I don't think it's really likely.

To be honest, it feels less like they studied past mistakes and came up less with "fantastic solutions" and instead just created a bunch of new mistakes. I like the idea, I liked the promotional content I saw before, but I don't know that it's going to work out. As was pointed out, "rabid" youtube comments and kickstarter interest don't equal a successful game. The proof is in the pudding, whether it can maintain a good player count post launch. People were saying exactly the same things about Wildstar not that long back. And a rabid fanbase doesn't exactly mean delivery (Can we think of a better word than rabid? Engaged would be more accurate, and we don't know if they're engaged until it comes out), look at "Overgrowth". It grew out of the fanbase for Lugaru, and instead became possibly the first failed crowdfunded vaporware lost to poor development. There were people so rabid there that years and years on, with only a rapidly aging homemade engine and buggy broken arena mode to go on, they're still following patches, and art style studies. Seriously, fuck Overgrowth. I was in high school when I put down money for that.

I'm especially interested to see how the PVP focus works out. I genuinely like that approach, like EVE Online, or more recently Life is Feudal and a few others, but it does rely on the playerbase, and whether the content is engaging enough. The procedural generation is really cool, I love that stuff, but you do still need to maintain servers, and for some of us, that's a big problem, because you rely on having local servers for a tolerable connection, especially for PVP. And whether the game can monetise successfully in the long run to stay up and running, at a high grade, is very much in question. I'd like to see it work, like, the pessimism isn't because I hate it. It's because it'd be nice, but there is a long list of challenges to overcome before that's even near happening.

I'll be keen to see how it works out, but I'm not holding my breath. Caution and you don't get burned.
I 100% understand this point of view. However, I would like to say that some of the fear you voice here is more reflexive then informed (Not that there is anything wrong with that. No one could possibly spend 100s hours on forums and news sites studying every product they happen by). Anyway... The development team is experienced and they have the funding to put that experience to good use. They have put up a damn good set of tests so far, and have one of the most transparent development cycles I have ever seen from a game-dev team.

But, like you said though, you can never be too cautious. Should (hopefully) the game succeed, I hope to briefly see you on the roadside before mercilessly robbing you ;)

P.S. The moment you said "The proof is in the pudding" I read your comment with a a total-biscuit voice.
Oh, don't worry. I fully intend to be checking this one out. They're doing too much fun stuff to not give it a go.

I just hope that I can manage some good latency so I can rob you back, and that there are enough people around to witness my overwhelming victory :)
Oh don't worry, there will be people there. Just not yours ;)
 

tragicnumberone

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Aug 23, 2015
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Happyninja42 said:
tragicnumberone said:
Meiam said:
There is one silver lining that's probably going to get me to buy the game (after watching review and let's play and waiting for the initial first week rush). The ability to get desperately creative.

Usual mmo, the dev can't really do anything if there number plummet, but crowfall might be able to try some crazy stuff in desperation to keep the game running.
The devs specifically boasted crazy different worlds as a selling point. The example they gave was a "centaur only world". They also gave a brief mention to a world in which gunpowder is introduced. If they wanted, they could make a world which is designed to mimic a scale version of the Iberian peninsula!
In fact, if they want to be really crazy. They could have a centaur only gun-powder equipped Iberian peninsula replica world!
It definitely has room for experimentation, that's for sure. I remember hearing from one of the developers that the neat thing about their world building methodology, is that they can try out stuff, and if it just doesn't work? Well no big deal, that world will eventually end, and they can say "Ok, note to self, never do that thing again, it sucked." And move on to the next one.
Like I had mentioned earlier, this means that problems that would be nigh irreversible in another MMO (bad world design comes to mind) are not major issues for Crowfall.

Another interesting part of their design philosophy is that they don't want to "balance" the game. Basically, if there is an imbalanced weapon/class/combination etc. unless it is game breaking, they won't fix it immediately. Instead, they will let the world keep going, and allow the playerbase to come up with a countermeasure. This allows the meta to evolve in a far more interesting way.
 

JamesGoblin

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BloatedGuppy said:
JamesGoblin said:
Talking about small Kickstarter budgets, they are already sitting on $6.4M, and with this dynamics it will land anywhere between $8M (quite pessimistic IMO) and $10M+ which actually (having in mind that they don't have to do PvE) brings the game in the lower range of AAA titles in terms of production quality.
I cannot take under funded MMOs seriously. Kickstarter games in general leave me cold. The most successful kickstarters of the last generation were funded around 5-6 million, and came in looking like decade old re-treads available on GOG for a five spot. In many cases they lifted their mechanics and aesthetics from moldering classics, so there wasn't a lot of budget or energy expended on innovative design or envelope pushing.

So then we come to the MMO, a genre that Bioware quite famously speculated would cost A BILLION DOLLARS to reasonably compete in some half decade ago, and the tepid response to their own 300 million dollar offering more or less supported this argument. MMOs have been flailing in the western market for a long time now, smothered under the oppressive shadow of WoW. Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a team to come up with something energizing and innovative that could shake off some of the genre's evident stagnation? Not impossible, no. Is it remotely likely? I feel like we'd have better chance pooling that kickstarter money and buying a bunch of lottery tickets.

TLDR - Kickstarted games and MMOs both deserve to be treated with the deepest skepticism, and kickstarted MMOs exponentially so.
Interesting, how did you reach the conclusion that CF is underfunded? People in the business seem to disagree with you, and not by little.

By the way, I find "I wish you all the luck in the world, this is a genre badly in need of invigoration and I have absolutely nothing against the game..." slightly contradictory to "Kickstarted games and MMOs both deserve to be treated with the deepest skepticism, and kickstarted MMOs exponentially so."

Fappy said:
I am super skeptical too, but I really, really want this game to work out. Everyone knows MMO's can be so much more than they are. Will things finally change if we just... believe?!??! XD
If you want to destroy the last hope, best thing you can do is sit back, do nothing and, well, "believe" :)
 

BloatedGuppy

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JamesGoblin said:
Interesting, how did you reach the conclusion that CF is underfunded? People in the business seem to disagree with you, and not by little.
I think I've made pretty clear the process by which I arrived at that conclusion. I'm quite certain you can find "people" anywhere that will agree or disagree with just about any perspective, this one being no different. Simply the fact the project was undertaken at all means "people in the business" thought it might work out. You'll likely discover that "people in the business" believe a great many things, and that "being in the business" does not guarantee accuracy in all one's predictions. If it did, there would be no such thing as a financially unsuccessful game.

JamesGoblin said:
By the way, I find "I wish you all the luck in the world, this is a genre badly in need of invigoration and I have absolutely nothing against the game..." slightly contradictory to "Kickstarted games and MMOs both deserve to be treated with the deepest skepticism, and kickstarted MMOs exponentially so."
It's possible you feel this way because of a fundamental misunderstanding as to what "contradictions" are. Wishing someone success and believing that said success is unlikely are not contradictory beliefs.
 

JamesGoblin

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BloatedGuppy said:
JamesGoblin said:
Interesting, how did you reach the conclusion that CF is underfunded? People in the business seem to disagree with you, and not by little.
I think I've made pretty clear the process by which I arrived at that conclusion. I'm quite certain you can find "people" anywhere that will agree or disagree with just about any perspective, this one being no different. Simply the fact the project was undertaken at all means "people in the business" thought it might work out. You'll likely discover that "people in the business" believe a great many things, and that "being in the business" does not guarantee accuracy in all one's predictions. If it did, there would be no such thing as a financially unsuccessful game.

JamesGoblin said:
By the way, I find "I wish you all the luck in the world, this is a genre badly in need of invigoration and I have absolutely nothing against the game..." slightly contradictory to "Kickstarted games and MMOs both deserve to be treated with the deepest skepticism, and kickstarted MMOs exponentially so."
It's possible you feel this way because of a fundamental misunderstanding as to what "contradictions" are. Wishing someone success and believing that said success is unlikely are not contradictory beliefs.
Speaking of "contradiction" - sorry about the misunderstanding. I actually used different word, or at least in my book "slightly" is much stronger modifier than it seems to be in yours!?

I actually went through all your writings twice, that's why I asked. I hoped for something more concrete than the common negative attitude on MMOs / crowdfunding and whatnot - I have in mind very concrete people, money, game and it's features, and I wrote about that extensively upthere.


For what it's worth, here is some (well, not so...) recent test footage, a couple pre-alpha sessions. It looks bad "as it should", but have in mind that they reached this level of playability in very short time - Kickstarter ended on March 28th last year, and tests began already in August (!).

Tank PoW (Knight):


Ranged DPS PoW (Confessor):

 

BloatedGuppy

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JamesGoblin said:
I actually went through all your writings twice, that's why I asked. I hoped for something more concrete than the common negative attitude on MMOs / crowdfunding and whatnot - I have in mind very concrete people, money, game and it's features, and I wrote about that extensively upthere.

For what it's worth, here is some (well, not so...) recent test footage, a couple pre-alpha sessions. It looks bad "as it should"
I'm actually one of the few MMO-positive people on these boards, where they tend to be broadly hated. It's a genre I've gotten great enjoyment out of over the years, and I tend to follow developments in it rather closely. Or did, back when there were developments worth following, but I digress. I'm not terribly happy with the state of the genre, and I've developed a pretty hearty cynicism towards it, but that doesn't mean I dislike the games or want them to fail. Quite the opposite.

Those videos looked scruffier than I would have imagined, but that's the reality of crowd funding for you. They are going to have to hope hard that they can pin down a niche, because they can't compete against any of the heavy hitters with those production values.

Would you happen to know if they're releasing it as a FTP title, or...? Are there sub fees?
 

meiam

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Apr 19, 2020
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I believe its a B2P, like GW2, but with some pretty big limitation that can be removed if you subscribe. If I remember correctly its gonna be limited to 3 character slot in total, with one character being able to gain passive experience when off line, these limitation will be removed for people who pay and they'll have 3 passive exp slot.

While were sorta on topic, how much was GW2 budget? They also didn't really have any end game to speak of, so I'm guessing it was pretty low to, but It must have been over 50 millions or something I'm guessing.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Meiam said:
I believe its a B2P, like GW2, but with some pretty big limitation that can be removed if you subscribe. If I remember correctly its gonna be limited to 3 character slot in total, with one character being able to gain passive experience when off line, these limitation will be removed for people who pay and they'll have 3 passive exp slot.

While were sorta on topic, how much was GW2 budget? They also didn't really have any end game to speak of, so I'm guessing it was pretty low to, but It must have been over 50 millions or something I'm guessing.
Somewhere between 50-100 million, if I remember correctly. Not as high as it probably should have been, but acceptable for the genre (depending on aspirations). GW2 had a few clever mechanisms in place to sustain interest outside of just raw content.

BTP will be tricky. If it was aiming for sub I'd just declare it hopelessly dead now, but FTP is increasingly where every fringe MMO is finding itself. There's so much FTP *now*...and competitive, high budget FTP at that...that the expectation of the market is a FTP model. Hell, they don't even like aggressive FTP models, if your game isn't borderline JUST FREE, they'll have a fit.
 

JamesGoblin

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Raph Koster on Crowfall social gameplay:


PS Silly side of gamemaking [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DotCrZJToZE] (video outtakes 2015-16).
 

franciscourant

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Meiam said:
I believe its a B2P, like GW2, but with some pretty big limitation that can be removed if you subscribe. If I remember correctly its gonna be limited to 3 character slot in total, with one character being able to gain passive experience when off line, these limitation will be removed for people who pay and they'll have 3 passive exp slot.

While were sorta on topic, how much was GW2 budget? They also didn't really have any end game to speak of, so I'm guessing it was pretty low to, but It must have been over 50 millions or something I'm guessing.
It's B2P and the players subscribing to the optional VIP membership do receive a discount from the store, passive training on 3 archetypes (as opposed to 1 for normal accounts) and priority access to the servers. The passive training is one of the ways the characters will progress in Crowfall, however in theory a character from an account with VIP will not "level" faster than a character with no VIP, it's just that the VIP account can level 3 characters simultaneously.

There's a cash shop also where players can buy stuff for their personal housing map (Eternal Kingdom), like parcels, strongholds, houses, etc. It's a great way to generate revenue without impacting too much on gameplay I guess.

We'll see how it goes, the fairness of the pricing model will depend a lot of the decisions taken by the devs... but for a PvP MMO, if they start selling powerful items or gameplay advantages, people will just quit playing so I doubt it would happen.

Anyway, the game is still in development, lot of things can change until launch, I'm keeping an eye on this game for sure. My biggest hope (along with Camelot Unchained, another very promising PvP-oriented MMORPG) for a quality MMO experience. =)
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Would it kill the OP to provide a video or at least elaborate on the subject of their thread?

Or will I have to use this massive repository of information literally at my fingertips to find out myself?

Fine.

...

Hm. Looks interesting. I'm all for the PvP focus. I could see myself getting into this.

Such a shame that the combat looks like the usual poorly animated, unresponsive MMO clusterfuck. I-beat-the-numbers-out-of-your-numbers-with-my-numbers-while-my-team-gives-me-numbers-with-their-numbers.

Maybe I could get past that though. I'll keep an eye open.

Incidentally, I really do love the art style they've got going on their website. If nothing else they clearly have an artist or two on board who knows their shit.