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BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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Treefingers said:
Working with a label is definitely something we're aiming for. It's early days for us at the moment though and at present we are trying to network as much as we can, beginning to build up a fanbase, tighten up our live performance etc. I don't suppose you could offer any pearls of wisdom for us? We're based in Auckland, NZ if that helps. We're currently doing everything on our own backs, though are considering looking for a manager and stuff etc. because to be honest, we're unfamiliar with the industry and aren't too sure where to start.

It's with guys i've known for a while and played with in bands before, but this time around we are taking it seriously and trying it do it right.

Also, in relation to the point in your first post about myspace and youtube, is it worth setting up a myspace page? It could just be my impression I get being in NZ, but it seems to me like myspace is becoming much less relevant. Bandcamp is much better for hosting music while our facebook covers the networking side of things at present. Does myspace carry any serious weight these days? We'll definitely set up a youtube account once we have something of worth to put there though.
I put this post from the Demo Submission thread in the music industry question thread instead, because it fits here better.

Basically just work out your goal and then work out all the little steps to get there. There's no one way to do it and the steps will vary depending on exactly what it is you want. So, what is it that you want?

I sometimes get negative comments because I insist on MySpace or YouTube. I'm aware that MySpace is considered an outdated social media and that there is Soundcloud, Bandcamp, etc. I insist on MySpace for two reasons:

1. People in the biz know what it is. Good luck getting my boss to click some other weird stuff, he'll think it's a virus.

2. Learning how to conform to annoying arbitrary rules and formats is something you're going to have to get used to in the music business.

MySpace is pretty dead as a social network, it's kind of gone back to what it always was originally, an online demo for musicians.
 

Treefingers

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Aug 1, 2008
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BonsaiK said:
Treefingers said:
Working with a label is definitely something we're aiming for. It's early days for us at the moment though and at present we are trying to network as much as we can, beginning to build up a fanbase, tighten up our live performance etc. I don't suppose you could offer any pearls of wisdom for us? We're based in Auckland, NZ if that helps. We're currently doing everything on our own backs, though are considering looking for a manager and stuff etc. because to be honest, we're unfamiliar with the industry and aren't too sure where to start.

It's with guys i've known for a while and played with in bands before, but this time around we are taking it seriously and trying it do it right.

Also, in relation to the point in your first post about myspace and youtube, is it worth setting up a myspace page? It could just be my impression I get being in NZ, but it seems to me like myspace is becoming much less relevant. Bandcamp is much better for hosting music while our facebook covers the networking side of things at present. Does myspace carry any serious weight these days? We'll definitely set up a youtube account once we have something of worth to put there though.
I put this post from the Demo Submission thread in the music industry question thread instead, because it fits here better.

Basically just work out your goal and then work out all the little steps to get there. There's no one way to do it and the steps will vary depending on exactly what it is you want. So, what is it that you want?

I sometimes get negative comments because I insist on MySpace or YouTube. I'm aware that MySpace is considered an outdated social media and that there is Soundcloud, Bandcamp, etc. I insist on MySpace for two reasons:

1. People in the biz know what it is. Good luck getting my boss to click some other weird stuff, he'll think it's a virus.

2. Learning how to conform to annoying arbitrary rules and formats is something you're going to have to get used to in the music business.

MySpace is pretty dead as a social network, it's kind of gone back to what it always was originally, an online demo for musicians.
Hmmm i see your point. I guess I ought to get on that then.

What do I want? Bare minimum I want success on a national level. An album, a national tour and a slot at a decent sized festival. Being in NZ I think this is quite a realistic goal.

At the risk of sounding over-ambitious i'm aiming much higher, however. International attention. An international tour. Festivals overseas. Moving overseas is something we've discussed. It wouldn't be practical for another year at least (i'm at the tail end of my degree) but it's something we're willing to do. I'm guessing we're better off doing some groundwork here first though anyhow.
 

ChaoticKraus

New member
Jul 26, 2010
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I just spent an hour or so reading through a series of articles on a rap website titled "Your Favorite Rapper Is Poor".

An extremely interesting read, if just to see how many hands really are in the pockets of any given rapper. It seems that many survives on all the free shit they get from companies wanting some free publicity. And the few who are truly rich seems to all have used the music as a trampoline to doing buisness. Even touring and T-shirts doesn't seem to be safe territory anymore, appearantly labels have started taking cuts from those too.

But that led me to one question. Hip-Hop is one of the biggest genres around, despite that very few people seem to earn any money. Wouldn't that mean that barely anyone in smaller genres earns anything at all?

I can't see say, death metal band "Blackened Skulls" being able to build a "brand" as effectively as performers in Pop, Rock or Hip-Hop can. The star power isn't there. Neither do i imagine that a Ska band gets very many oppurtunities to advertise for Sprite.

Not to mention that there's less money for each person if everyone in the band gets a cut.

Are there less hands in the pocket when theres not much money in there? I imagine most smaller acts make money from touring/merchandise but how many has the pull to make a living of it? Or are they all simply doing it for free and then go back to working their usual 9-5 to pay for the tour?

Here's the series if anyone's interested (I don't know if it is funny or tragic too see how many people are getting ruined because of child support and neglected taxes)

http://www.refinedhype.com/hyped/filter/tag/Your+Favorite+Rapper+is+Poor/P10/
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
5,635
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0
Treefingers said:
BonsaiK said:
Treefingers said:
Working with a label is definitely something we're aiming for. It's early days for us at the moment though and at present we are trying to network as much as we can, beginning to build up a fanbase, tighten up our live performance etc. I don't suppose you could offer any pearls of wisdom for us? We're based in Auckland, NZ if that helps. We're currently doing everything on our own backs, though are considering looking for a manager and stuff etc. because to be honest, we're unfamiliar with the industry and aren't too sure where to start.

It's with guys i've known for a while and played with in bands before, but this time around we are taking it seriously and trying it do it right.

Also, in relation to the point in your first post about myspace and youtube, is it worth setting up a myspace page? It could just be my impression I get being in NZ, but it seems to me like myspace is becoming much less relevant. Bandcamp is much better for hosting music while our facebook covers the networking side of things at present. Does myspace carry any serious weight these days? We'll definitely set up a youtube account once we have something of worth to put there though.
I put this post from the Demo Submission thread in the music industry question thread instead, because it fits here better.

Basically just work out your goal and then work out all the little steps to get there. There's no one way to do it and the steps will vary depending on exactly what it is you want. So, what is it that you want?

I sometimes get negative comments because I insist on MySpace or YouTube. I'm aware that MySpace is considered an outdated social media and that there is Soundcloud, Bandcamp, etc. I insist on MySpace for two reasons:

1. People in the biz know what it is. Good luck getting my boss to click some other weird stuff, he'll think it's a virus.

2. Learning how to conform to annoying arbitrary rules and formats is something you're going to have to get used to in the music business.

MySpace is pretty dead as a social network, it's kind of gone back to what it always was originally, an online demo for musicians.
Hmmm i see your point. I guess I ought to get on that then.

What do I want? Bare minimum I want success on a national level. An album, a national tour and a slot at a decent sized festival. Being in NZ I think this is quite a realistic goal.

At the risk of sounding over-ambitious i'm aiming much higher, however. International attention. An international tour. Festivals overseas. Moving overseas is something we've discussed. It wouldn't be practical for another year at least (i'm at the tail end of my degree) but it's something we're willing to do. I'm guessing we're better off doing some groundwork here first though anyhow.
Sorry about the delay, mixture of work, touring, and CBF. Back on it now though.

Cut straight to the larger goal. Seriously. Doesn't really matter whether you start in NZ or start elsewhere, but be aware that it's easier to become a bigger fish in a smaller pond, however if you become a medium sized fish in a bigger pond, you don't need the smaller pond and do you want to do all that work twice so why not do it where it counts. NZ's situation is similar to Australia's - many bands in Australia get very famous in Australia to the point of being household names but never made any real dent internationally despite putting in their best efforts (Cold Chisel spring instantly to mind here, but there were/are many). On the other hand a lot of Australian bands who went overseas early in their career just tour over there now and don't even care much about the Australian market. Same with bands in many other countries geographically isolated from the main touring circuit (Japan, South Africa). You don't have to move overseas but you may have to consign yourself to being over there a lot/most of the time.

Best thing you can do from NZ is make friends with as many touring bands and their people as possible. No-one within NZ can really help you much with your larger goal. How to do this is to get support slots with them and then hopefully blow them away with your amazing music (this obviously requires you to have amazing music) and also get friendly with them, they may then invite you to tour their country, or at least do a show or two. Then when you're over there make some friends, get names and addresses of friendly fans who will let you crash at their house, bands who can get you more shows etc, venue owners and locations... then you can book your own tour.

The other route of course is to send shit to labels and try and get them to organise and pay for all this stuff. Nice if you can get it, but no reason to wait for that to happen.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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Ham_authority95 said:
How do you deal with being "removed" from a band? How did you react the first time it happened?
Only ever happened to me once. The band thought my playing was fine but didn't really like me that much as a person. Fair enough I guess, at least they had the balls to tell me. How did I react? I said "oh well" and joined a new band. Then I wrote a song about it.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
5,635
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ChaoticKraus said:
I just spent an hour or so reading through a series of articles on a rap website titled "Your Favorite Rapper Is Poor".

An extremely interesting read, if just to see how many hands really are in the pockets of any given rapper. It seems that many survives on all the free shit they get from companies wanting some free publicity. And the few who are truly rich seems to all have used the music as a trampoline to doing buisness. Even touring and T-shirts doesn't seem to be safe territory anymore, appearantly labels have started taking cuts from those too.

But that led me to one question. Hip-Hop is one of the biggest genres around, despite that very few people seem to earn any money. Wouldn't that mean that barely anyone in smaller genres earns anything at all?

I can't see say, death metal band "Blackened Skulls" being able to build a "brand" as effectively as performers in Pop, Rock or Hip-Hop can. The star power isn't there. Neither do i imagine that a Ska band gets very many oppurtunities to advertise for Sprite.

Not to mention that there's less money for each person if everyone in the band gets a cut.

Are there less hands in the pocket when theres not much money in there? I imagine most smaller acts make money from touring/merchandise but how many has the pull to make a living of it? Or are they all simply doing it for free and then go back to working their usual 9-5 to pay for the tour?

Here's the series if anyone's interested (I don't know if it is funny or tragic too see how many people are getting ruined because of child support and neglected taxes)

http://www.refinedhype.com/hyped/filter/tag/Your+Favorite+Rapper+is+Poor/P10/
I haven't got time to sift through it right now, but I don't even need to read the articles to know that they're probably close to 100% true. Thanks for pointing them out to me because no doubt I'll enjoy reading them later.

A few things:

Firstly, cars, girls and clothes in rap videos are usually rented. Once the video shoot is over, all that shit goes back to the hire company. A new artist with their very first single, yes that shit is definitely hired.

I say "usually" because there are exceptions: Say you're a rapper who was brought up in the ghetto with next to nothing and you've suddenly just got a hit debut single (unlikely, but humour me). Eventually (because it takes about a year) money starts coming in, quite a chunk. So, you buy a deposit on that mansion on a 3 acre property, the fancy car, the other fancy car for your girlfriend in the different colour she likes, some pets, a maid, a gardener and a security guy - pretty normal by a-list Hollywood standards, right? Now let's check out your expenses:

Mortgage payments
Registration on cars x 2
Insurance on cars x 2 (expensive too as your girl wanted that fucking sports thing)
Insurance on house (which is high, I mean, you're a rapper...)
Council rates on house
Bills on house, incuding exorbitant water bill because you're on 3 acres
Wages for maid and gardener and security
Ongoing maintenance on house, can't just ring your landlord when the gas fucks up
Food and vet bills for pets

Now you're paying a few thousand dollars a month not for new stuff but just to keep what you've got without losing any of it. Better hope people buy the second single too.

And yeah, the biz takes a lot of money, not just because the have to distrubite and market your product but because hiring all those limos and girls costs money and someone has to pay for that shit. Rap artists get screwed financially now the same way that doo-wop artists did in the 50's - none of them made any money either. Ice-T has a great song about it that I'm always directing people to:


Let me know if you have further questions. In the meantime I'll try to get to those articles later today.
 

ChaoticKraus

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Jul 26, 2010
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BonsaiK said:
Yeah, what you said mirror what the articles said almost perfectly. I recommend reading them if you get time, they get into some really interesting stuff later in the series with articles on 360 deals, buisness deals and interviews with publicists and so on. One of those articles showcases a list of what it costs to book the rapper for a live performance. Interesting to see how "hot" they is/isn't.

But what i'm wondering more precisely goes along these lines. If rappers has such difficulty keeping the financial side in check, how hard is it for smaller genres?

Not only will say, a jazz band sell less singles/albums. They will also lack the buisness oppurtunities (commercials etc.) and wont get the free shit that genres with "Star Power" rake in.

Are they still able to support themselves through live acts and still have a decent living? Or do they all do it for the art/fun and work regular jobs to pay the bills?

I mean sure, the big acts in any genre probably do well. But few of the seemingly billions of metal bands gets to the level of metallica. TO use an example.

Oh and i always appreciate hearing Ice-T spreading some light on the less pretty side of the industry. Everyone else seems to avoid the topic with a passion.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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ChaoticKraus said:
BonsaiK said:
Yeah, what you said mirror what the articles said almost perfectly. I recommend reading them if you get time, they get into some really interesting stuff later in the series with articles on 360 deals, buisness deals and interviews with publicists and so on. One of those articles showcases a list of what it costs to book the rapper for a live performance. Interesting to see how "hot" they is/isn't.

But what i'm wondering more precisely goes along these lines. If rappers has such difficulty keeping the financial side in check, how hard is it for smaller genres?

Not only will say, a jazz band sell less singles/albums. They will also lack the buisness oppurtunities (commercials etc.) and wont get the free shit that genres with "Star Power" rake in.

Are they still able to support themselves through live acts and still have a decent living? Or do they all do it for the art/fun and work regular jobs to pay the bills?

I mean sure, the big acts in any genre probably do well. But few of the seemingly billions of metal bands gets to the level of metallica. TO use an example.

Oh and i always appreciate hearing Ice-T spreading some light on the less pretty side of the industry. Everyone else seems to avoid the topic with a passion.
I did have a look through those articles. Most of it wasn't news to me, but it's good to have it laid out for people nice and simply. I can see some linking to that site in my future.

It's hard for everyone to get paid and you'd be amazed at some of the really high profile bands that are world famous and still have day jobs! Unless you're doing it on the level of Beyonce or U2, it's really hard to see truly decent money at all and touring involves lots of sleeping on floors. Your perception of only the stratospherically big artists getting rich is correct, and even that can be fleeting if it's a band with a limited commercial lifespan.

Where the rap community hits a real hurdle is that a lot of people trying to make it in that industry believe every cliche in the book when it comes to being signed etc... probably because a lot of those people are frankly poorer/less educated than most and that has a big influence on both the culture as well as how ripe you are for exploitation. It's easy to spot a rapper from a middle-class background, they're the ones who don't rap about money all the time and typically take an anti-commercial stance in their lyrics. It's easy to say to no to shady deals and money culture when you've always grown up with enough of it around you. There's a lot of money in rap but not a lot of the rappers are seeing it. The ones who are, are the ones who were smart enough to get some hooks in on the other side of the business and run their own labels, sign their own artists and explore other non-musical ventures. I do all of these things to some degree and I'm not short of cash now (although it took a while to get to that point), if I had to rely solely on sales and royalties from my own music, I'd be living in a cardboard box.

There's a few other reasons why rap artists struggle in particular that are basically cultural, but it's too lengthy to go into here and it all basically boils down to the same point - they believe the hype too much. Should have listened to more PE growing up (who were middle class and college-educated, and it shows).
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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CODE-D said:
Can you describe(physically) how to sing properly?
I can, but you can get that information anywhere, it's not something you need a "music industry" thread for.

Very quickly: sing from the whole body, not the throat. Lie down, put your hand over your stomach, then breathe in and out, try and be relaxed about it. If you're doing it properly, your stomach will rise when you breathe in and fall when you breathe out. That's your diaphragm working, and that's what you need to do when singing - work that muscle. People who don't know how to breathe, take a deep breath by puffing their chest out, that's the wrong way, and when they sign the air is coming from higher up. The muscles that drive breathing are lower and you can project far more by pushing out air from lower down. That's the key - sing from the body. This is the only vocal technique that applies to every style of music and it's the one thing that you must learn, it's not optional. Everything else is style-dependent.
 

ChaoticKraus

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Jul 26, 2010
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Cheers man, knowing the truth is always useful even if it is discouraging. But what the heck is PE? I doubt you're talking about Physical Education or Penis Enlargement and those are the only things i know that uses that acronym.
 

Zombie_Fish

Opiner of Mottos
Mar 20, 2009
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ChaoticKraus said:
Cheers man, knowing the truth is always useful even if it is discouraging. But what the heck is PE? I doubt you're talking about Physical Education or Penis Enlargement and those are the only things i know that uses that acronym.
I'm guessing he meant Public Enemy [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Enemy_%28group%29].
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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ChaoticKraus said:
Cheers man, knowing the truth is always useful even if it is discouraging. But what the heck is PE? I doubt you're talking about Physical Education or Penis Enlargement and those are the only things i know that uses that acronym.
Zombie_Fish said:
I'm guessing he meant Public Enemy [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Enemy_%28group%29].
Correct. At one time, they were the most musically important group in popular music. They're pretty much entirely responsible for the way all popular music sounds from 1990 onward. Specifically, my comment was referring to this song:

 

ChaoticKraus

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Ah, i see. Might i ask in what way they influenced music? They don't sound very revolutionary to me, but then again i have no idea what to listen for.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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ChaoticKraus said:
Ah, i see. Might i ask in what way they influenced music? They don't sound very revolutionary to me, but then again i have no idea what to listen for.
Public Enemy killed the "80s sound" and ushered in the "90s sound" in popular music, the sound that their production team "The Bomb Squad" brought to their second album "It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back" was sufficiently influential to change the way all popular music was written, recorded and produced. Out went square mechanical drum machines, live drummers in rock that hit the bass drum only on the 1 and 3 and the snare only on the 2 and 4, emphasis on melody over texture, drum kits with gated reverb, dry guitars with artifical effects added later and vocals that sound like they were recorded in a subway station. In came drummers with syncopated off-beat snare playing, dense sampled textures, sub-bass, almost-industrial noises like sirens, kettles and atonal screeches, drier studio treatments, more natural vocal effects and an ideology of "if it's noisy and dirty, that's still okay if it gets the point across". This pre-dated and influenced grunge, Dave Grohl simply would not have played his kit the way he did on "Smells Like Teen Spirit" if it were not for Public Enemy popularising James Brown's "Funky Drummer" loop through endless resampling and using it in their songs. Those influences didn't exist anywhere in commercial rock music in 1986, but by 1991 they were everywhere.
 

ChaoticKraus

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BonsaiK said:
serious production stuff
Makes sense, to me it doesn't sound revolutionary because i already heard that sound hundreds of times. Still nice to know that they had some groundbreaking production backing their intelligent lyrics.
 

Treefingers

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BonsaiK said:
Treefingers said:
BonsaiK said:
Treefingers said:
Working with a label is definitely something we're aiming for. It's early days for us at the moment though and at present we are trying to network as much as we can, beginning to build up a fanbase, tighten up our live performance etc. I don't suppose you could offer any pearls of wisdom for us? We're based in Auckland, NZ if that helps. We're currently doing everything on our own backs, though are considering looking for a manager and stuff etc. because to be honest, we're unfamiliar with the industry and aren't too sure where to start.

It's with guys i've known for a while and played with in bands before, but this time around we are taking it seriously and trying it do it right.

Also, in relation to the point in your first post about myspace and youtube, is it worth setting up a myspace page? It could just be my impression I get being in NZ, but it seems to me like myspace is becoming much less relevant. Bandcamp is much better for hosting music while our facebook covers the networking side of things at present. Does myspace carry any serious weight these days? We'll definitely set up a youtube account once we have something of worth to put there though.
I put this post from the Demo Submission thread in the music industry question thread instead, because it fits here better.

Basically just work out your goal and then work out all the little steps to get there. There's no one way to do it and the steps will vary depending on exactly what it is you want. So, what is it that you want?

I sometimes get negative comments because I insist on MySpace or YouTube. I'm aware that MySpace is considered an outdated social media and that there is Soundcloud, Bandcamp, etc. I insist on MySpace for two reasons:

1. People in the biz know what it is. Good luck getting my boss to click some other weird stuff, he'll think it's a virus.

2. Learning how to conform to annoying arbitrary rules and formats is something you're going to have to get used to in the music business.

MySpace is pretty dead as a social network, it's kind of gone back to what it always was originally, an online demo for musicians.
Hmmm i see your point. I guess I ought to get on that then.

What do I want? Bare minimum I want success on a national level. An album, a national tour and a slot at a decent sized festival. Being in NZ I think this is quite a realistic goal.

At the risk of sounding over-ambitious i'm aiming much higher, however. International attention. An international tour. Festivals overseas. Moving overseas is something we've discussed. It wouldn't be practical for another year at least (i'm at the tail end of my degree) but it's something we're willing to do. I'm guessing we're better off doing some groundwork here first though anyhow.
Sorry about the delay, mixture of work, touring, and CBF. Back on it now though.

Cut straight to the larger goal. Seriously. Doesn't really matter whether you start in NZ or start elsewhere, but be aware that it's easier to become a bigger fish in a smaller pond, however if you become a medium sized fish in a bigger pond, you don't need the smaller pond and do you want to do all that work twice so why not do it where it counts. NZ's situation is similar to Australia's - many bands in Australia get very famous in Australia to the point of being household names but never made any real dent internationally despite putting in their best efforts (Cold Chisel spring instantly to mind here, but there were/are many). On the other hand a lot of Australian bands who went overseas early in their career just tour over there now and don't even care much about the Australian market. Same with bands in many other countries geographically isolated from the main touring circuit (Japan, South Africa). You don't have to move overseas but you may have to consign yourself to being over there a lot/most of the time.

Best thing you can do from NZ is make friends with as many touring bands and their people as possible. No-one within NZ can really help you much with your larger goal. How to do this is to get support slots with them and then hopefully blow them away with your amazing music (this obviously requires you to have amazing music) and also get friendly with them, they may then invite you to tour their country, or at least do a show or two. Then when you're over there make some friends, get names and addresses of friendly fans who will let you crash at their house, bands who can get you more shows etc, venue owners and locations... then you can book your own tour.

The other route of course is to send shit to labels and try and get them to organise and pay for all this stuff. Nice if you can get it, but no reason to wait for that to happen.
Excellent, I shall keep all this in mind. Cheers for your time mate, very much appreciated.
 

Nouw

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Mar 18, 2009
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I am aware that questions about auto-tune have been asked however I want to make sure that I'm getting my facts right. I don't want to be even more misinformed by misinterpreting something.

Noticeable use of auto-tune or 'hard' as you addressed it as, is only used because they like the sound of the effect that it makes? As in the same reason an electronic musician would use vocoder? And could you give me an example of auto-tune being used to actually 'perfect' the pitch of an artist? I heard from my friend that a news outlet had covered auto-tuning by 'de-auto-tuning' a song and revealing that it was used to perfect the pitch however I am not sure if it was 'hard' or 'soft.'

Thanks in advance, I always like reading through this thread do get some musical-enlightenment.