Dark Souls 2 - What i'd like to see

WWmelb

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Having only ever platinumed two games in my history (Dark Souls and Demon's Souls) I consider myself quite the fan of both of those two games.

However, neither one was flawless, however much i love them. They both did some things great, and let me down a touch in other areas. It's funny, most of the negatives i have about both games, are the same, but on opposite ends of the spectrum.

For starters

Crafting.

Demons was the (slightly) better of the two crafting systems in my opinion, however the sheer volume of different types of materials required, on top of the fact that there were some crafting items that were only obtainable through luck/farming/exploiting (eg Pure Bladestone, Pure Darkmoonstone, Pure moonstone) made for quite the mess in my opinion. However, the variety in the resulting upgrades and creations was fantastic.

Dark Souls on the other hand .. TOO simple. And the resulting crafted items/upgrades were in my opinion of course, dull and not creative.

I found the Boss soul weapons in Demons to be pretty damn good, and interesting to use for the most part, whereas dark souls most of the boss soul weapons were relatively limited in their use, and needed very very very specific builds to make them effective.

I am hoping they find a middle ground here... a little more depth in the system than dark souls, but not as convoluted as demons souls. Boss Souls Weapons need to be moderately powerful to use for any build, ridiculously effective if your build is specifically for the weapon, and somewhat difficult to upgrade a weapon to. Narrow the choice of weapons that will upgrade specifically to a boss weapon, and make the progression of upgrading make sense. You learn the move set of a scimitar, you upgrade your scimitar so it is much more powerful.. then it upgrades to a unique scimitar (that you have been practicing with all this time), not to.. say a greatsword, which is a completely different moveset and gameplay style.

Unique armor upgrades would be nice too. Boss soul armors would be amazingly fantastic.

I'm sure there is more i've thought of that i haven't mentioned, but those are the big ones in crafting.


Critical Hits (BS and Riposte)

I would love to see very different outcomes based upon weapons being used by the player performing BS or Riposte, and make it dynamically interact with the gear that the victim is wearing.

Some examples.

Perform Backstab with Dagger - Very High damage against cloth/light armors. Moderate/High damage against plate armors but cause high weapon durability loss. Little to know damage against player with a shield holstered on their back.

Perform Backstab with Blunt Weapon - Low/Moderate base damage against all. Causes debuffs such as stun or stagger or cripple. Some kind of debilitation in line with disorientation. A different level of debuff depending on armor type you are attacking. More difficult to perform than with a dagger.

And so forth, haven't figured out all of them, but i think all of them should be different, as it would certainly make for more interesting PVP, and allow for more variation in how to tackle different enemies.

I'm sure many many players experienced the frustration of being an "average" player in PVP and just being one shot backstabbed repeatedly, whether due to skill or latency. I know was one shot backstabbed a lot of times from what appeared to be an enemy 3 meters away standing in front of me.


PVP

Well, i never got a chance to do a lot of PVP in Demons so i certainly don't feel like i can authoritatively say how well it worked, but, for players with high-ish latency, dark souls was horrible. See above.

The main problem with pvp was the heavy use of backstabs, and the way too easy to exploit invincibility frames. With the ideas for backstabbing above, i think it would shift the focus of pvp away from backstabbing, or funnel it's use into a more tactical thing than just omfgpwn damage.

Invincibility frames on the other hand, a little harder to fix.. not sure how it will go, but from what i've heard they scale with the weight of your armor, so hopefully this makes it a more interesting dynamic.


Magic/Pyro/Sorcery etc

Sorcery in Demon's was kind of easy mode through the game. It was way overpowered, and waaaaaay to easy to do..well..everything. My first mage character for instance, at about level 60 cast two spells (homing soul mass) at the false king and he fell over.

Learning how to mage in Dark though was bad. I don't have a problem with the limited use spells etc but for new players, trying to be a mage type character was quite close to impossible without looking up guides and the like.

I'm hoping they have found a middle ground between this, but we shall see.



World/Character tendency.

Please for the love of god bring something like this back. Not as convoluted and difficult to manipulate as demons but SOMEthing

Such a unique and magnificent mechanic. I missed it in Dark souls a lot.

I don't see with the seamless world how they could do a world tendency easily, though i'm sure they could, but character tendency could be implemented easily enough.

Please i want it back.



Anyways, just a couple of things i'd like to see in DS2, any other suggestions or thoughts on my thoughts most welcome.

March, hurry up damn you.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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There's just so much to fix:

- Fix the broken RPG mechanics like fire magic not requiring stat investment. Stats being useless like Resistance. Items (like the Wolf Ring) allowing builds to do things that a certain build shouldn't be able to do. Being able to put an element on a weapon thereby negating the need for stat investment. The horribly broken inventory system that lets you carry every fucking thing you ever found.

- Make the combat system actually complex and fix the controls. I should be able to backpedal and strafe with a shield up and not locked-on.

- Make leveling up actually mean something other than numbers going up. I should get new moves and abilities as I level up (like every other fucking RPG) so the combat isn't the same from the 1st enemy to the last enemy. This causes Dark Souls into the RPG trap that no RPG should fall into, which is that you feel like you can't beat higher level monsters just solely due to numbers. When I get to that level 10 enemy when level 10, I should feel like I beat the enemy because of my new abilities gained instead of my damage numbers just going up via leveling stats and weapons. All RPGs have your stats and everything go up and that's the real reason why you can now beat the monsters you couldn't beat, but getting new abilities and skills hides that fact that should be hidden.

- Better designed boss battles, most boss battles were just very basic and very easy.

- Give the enemy somewhat decent AI. I shouldn't be able to circle strafe an enemy for a backstab. Why is Dark Souls like the only game that allows you to hit an enemy in a group with an arrow and only that enemy comes to you?

- Instead of considering implementing an Easy mode, give me a fucking Hard mode so the game is actually challenging.

- Allow playing as a mage to be a legit playstyle along with other playstyles like stealth thus getting sneak attacks (of course that requires better enemy AI). Dark Souls was designed to be played with shield and sword for the most part.
 

WWmelb

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Phoenixmgs said:
There's just so much to fix:

- Fix the broken RPG mechanics like fire magic not requiring stat investment. Stats being useless like Resistance. Items (like the Wolf Ring) allowing builds to do things that a certain build shouldn't be able to do. Being able to put an element on a weapon thereby negating the need for stat investment. The horribly broken inventory system that lets you carry every fucking thing you ever found.
They already did a lot to fix weapon scaling from stats as opposed to just elemental damage weapons. And i do concur that the way they went with inventory in Dark Souls was kinda bad. The carry limit in demon souls was a little restrictive, but i liked it better than the able to carry all of everything Dark Souls approach.

I didn't have a problem at all with the minimalist RPG approach they took in both games. And agree that all forms of magic needed a bit of an overhaul with implementation, particularly in early game.

- Make the combat system actually complex and fix the controls. I should be able to backpedal and strafe with a shield up and not locked-on.
Personally i didn't have a problem with the combat or the controls. I found them tight and responsive, and to be honest if i backpeddled in that game just because i had my shield up, and couldn't quick turn without dropping my guard, i'd be pissed as hell. i like that not locked means free moving where i need to go, but that is a personal taste thing. I don't think it is a flaw in the game personally, just some people liked, some people didn't i guess. A sidestep/strafe option is something i hadn't thought of though, but would make a nice addition to spice things up a bit, just a similar thing to the back-step you can currently do.

Make leveling up actually mean something other than numbers going up. I should get new moves and abilities as I level up (like every other fucking RPG) so the combat isn't the same from the 1st enemy to the last enemy. This causes Dark Souls into the RPG trap that no RPG should fall into, which is that you feel like you can't beat higher level monsters just solely due to numbers. When I get to that level 10 enemy when level 10, I should feel like I beat the enemy because of my new abilities gained instead of my damage numbers just going up via leveling stats and weapons. All RPGs have your stats and everything go up and that's the real reason why you can now beat the monsters you couldn't beat, but getting new abilities and skills hides that fact that should be hidden.
I can sort of see your reasoning in this, however, you lost me at the "like every other fucking RPG". I don't want my souls to be like every other generic RPG.

Levelling up in a souls game makes some things a little easier to get through, but for me, the progression is based more on learning the moves of enemies, learning what weapons can counter different enemies better, and just gaining more skill in how you play.

The problem with this is unfortunately, it leads to the game getting quite easy in the end, and it becomes up to the player to find new ways to challenge ones self.

To me it doesn't sound like you actually the game, but want to. I personally don't want the game style changed at all, just some minor tweaks to mechanics and whatnot, whereas it sounds like you want the entire experience to be altered to be like the more standard western RPG, which sort of goes against the design.

A lot of your points do still stand though and can agree with some of them needing a bit of work.

delta4062 said:
Bring back Demon's Souls online servers. Demon's Souls was so much more fun to play through with a buddy, despite the lack of voice chat. Dark Souls has it so that everyone is on different servers each time they log in. Making it nigh impossible to play with someone you know.
From my understanding DS2 is going back to dedicated servers, however summoned players will be on a timer, so you can't just co-op the whole thing in one sitting with a friend... sooo... sort of almost what you want but not quite. lol


Oh and another thing. The menus in Dark Souls, especially inventory management was bad.. especially in the stash. Demon's Souls stash management was pretty easy, with the weapons being sorted by type in different tabs and what not. Please make this come back lol
 

Mikejames

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I always had mixed feelings about the multiplayer in Dark Souls. Being told that the experience is better when you aren't allowed to manually invite friends is a bit hard to swallow when I'm on my fourth failed attempt at using the only summoning sign available.

And no one ever seems to talk about illusory walls. Screw em.
 

Mental Cosmas

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I had a long(ish) post but lost it, so the cliff notes

Yes, a mix of Dark and Demon's Souls crafting would be great.

Boss Armor upgrades would be great, although would it require one soul for the whole set or multiple boss killings? These armors having some sort of unique effect would be cool too, or just in general armors with affects other then different resistances.

I like the idea of low armor with dagger from shield on back, but a greater durability damage from medium armor feels kinda pointless, from personal experience anyway durability has never played a major role with weapons, except for maybe crystal weapons and the gear who use it as some form of cost for their abilities, turning backstab into something that feels like a special ability seems... eh

Love the idea for blunt weapons having a different backstab design, that being said "stuns" or "crippling" would have to be carefully done so it doesn't basically ensure a second, third etc. backstab. You did mention it would be harder to do and maybe you had that in mind but I just thought i'd specify.

Yes, backstabbing in pvp is very badly done in Dark Souls. No getting around it.

they have said they're doing something about invincibility frames, and at the very least there is one enemy who will body slam you when you try to backstab them, so they're clearly putting some thought into it, hopefully

Yes sorcery was OP in Demon's Souls, I went faith build in Dark so not so sure about difficulty of using it without guides. Personally I kinda think Sorcery had the most going for it and i kinda hope in Dark at the very least Miracles get a decent few more handy tricks and weapons that support the build, maybe pyromancy too.

World Tendency, if better implemented, would be great. Perhaps character tendency could be tied to one's hollow nature, but then it might make being a hollow something to be used, rather then avoided at all costs, once again. I actually liked them removing the "no invades while hollow" part for making being hollow more abhorrent, although admittedly having a method that didn't require you being offline (for the messages and bloodstains, at the very least) i'd still appreciate.
 

WWmelb

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Mental Cosmas said:
I had a long(ish) post but lost it, so the cliff notes

Yes, a mix of Dark and Demon's Souls crafting would be great.

Boss Armor upgrades would be great, although would it require one soul for the whole set or multiple boss killings? These armors having some sort of unique effect would be cool too, or just in general armors with affects other then different resistances.

I like the idea of low armor with dagger from shield on back, but a greater durability damage from medium armor feels kinda pointless, from personal experience anyway durability has never played a major role with weapons, except for maybe crystal weapons and the gear who use it as some form of cost for their abilities, turning backstab into something that feels like a special ability seems... eh

Love the idea for blunt weapons having a different backstab design, that being said "stuns" or "crippling" would have to be carefully done so it doesn't basically ensure a second, third etc. backstab. You did mention it would be harder to do and maybe you had that in mind but I just thought i'd specify.

Yes, backstabbing in pvp is very badly done in Dark Souls. No getting around it.

they have said they're doing something about invincibility frames, and at the very least there is one enemy who will body slam you when you try to backstab them, so they're clearly putting some thought into it, hopefully

Yes sorcery was OP in Demon's Souls, I went faith build in Dark so not so sure about difficulty of using it without guides. Personally I kinda think Sorcery had the most going for it and i kinda hope in Dark at the very least Miracles get a decent few more handy tricks and weapons that support the build, maybe pyromancy too.

World Tendency, if better implemented, would be great. Perhaps character tendency could be tied to one's hollow nature, but then it might make being a hollow something to be used, rather then avoided at all costs, once again. I actually liked them removing the "no invades while hollow" part for making being hollow more abhorrent, although admittedly having a method that didn't require you being offline (for the messages and bloodstains, at the very least) i'd still appreciate.
Yeah i certainly agree with most all of what you said.

Just to clarify on durability. I agree it has had very very little to do with anything up until now, but i'd like to see that change. I would love to see some more risk/reward things, and i think durability would be a good way to do that.

For example. I have a dagger equipped and come up against a foe with heavy plate armor. My dagger will do very minimal damage to them over all, unless i backstab them. However, although i may do a huge amount of damage to them, there is a good chance my dagger will become damaged while doing so, so have to make the choice between risk and reward. Just a mechanic idea i thought would be interesting.
 

fatmrbunko

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ok, this is stuff id like to see that i dont already know to be in the game, because a lot of the changes iver heard are in the beta

in terms of magic i just want variety, spells with different effects and animations as sorcerry in dark was just soul arrow (and its many near identical forms), pyromancy was much the same with fire balls and miracles were a little better, so i feel large variety would be great
i'd like more side quests/hidden areas but id just like more of most things so i'll leave that as a minor comment
different backstab/parry animations for different skill levels and weapons besides the 2 you get in dark 3 for backstab with a certain ring
a tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and utilise the mechanics, perhaps even explaining the stats somewhat
some randomisation to keep things tough for veterans, like randomising traps and organic enemies like for example their original plans for the black knights was to have them wondering the world so you could find them anywhere, also the use of enemies appearing in different locations each time you play so the layout of the room can change or having some enemies appear only sometimes maybe randomly or based on requirements or maybe the game adding new challeneges to people dying a little too infrequently, of course i wouldnt want any of these things to be everywhere changing eveything constantly, this would need to be in moderation but itd keep veterans on their toes and add more replayability skill wise, also rewards for certain challenges (like if their was a reward for beating certain parts or all of the game with the calamity ring in dks) or unlocking bonuses for beating the game on level 1 etc.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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WWmelb said:
Personally i didn't have a problem with the combat or the controls. I found them tight and responsive, and to be honest if i backpeddled in that game just because i had my shield up, and couldn't quick turn without dropping my guard, i'd be pissed as hell. i like that not locked means free moving where i need to go, but that is a personal taste thing. I don't think it is a flaw in the game personally, just some people liked, some people didn't i guess. A sidestep/strafe option is something i hadn't thought of though, but would make a nice addition to spice things up a bit, just a similar thing to the back-step you can currently do.
Not being able to backpedal with a shield up and not locked-on got me hit some many times when there was an enemy around a corner that you just couldn't quite lock-on to, you then want to move back while still blocking, and then your character turns around and gets hit in the back. And it's an issue when fighting multiple enemies as you wanna be able to move (backpedal or strafe) with keeping your block up. I'm so used of the fraction of a second it takes to release block, turn around, and re-press block to turn around and block as that's how every other game does it.

I can sort of see your reasoning in this, however, you lost me at the "like every other fucking RPG". I don't want my souls to be like every other generic RPG.

Levelling up in a souls game makes some things a little easier to get through, but for me, the progression is based more on learning the moves of enemies, learning what weapons can counter different enemies better, and just gaining more skill in how you play.

The problem with this is unfortunately, it leads to the game getting quite easy in the end, and it becomes up to the player to find new ways to challenge ones self.

To me it doesn't sound like you actually the game, but want to. I personally don't want the game style changed at all, just some minor tweaks to mechanics and whatnot, whereas it sounds like you want the entire experience to be altered to be like the more standard western RPG, which sort of goes against the design.

A lot of your points do still stand though and can agree with some of them needing a bit of work.
I do like Dark Souls, I'd give it a 6/10 (slightly above average) for its atmosphere and level design mainly.

I'm not asking to get powers like having a rogue dash around area slashing everyone or asking to build up to some super attack after killing X amount of enemies. Give at least passive abilities where say a Dex build that gets to 20 Dex gets a 10% damage increase on an attack after a roll and that goes up every 5 levels. Maybe give a Dex build like a 5% chance of just evading a hit (they leaned slightly right and dodged it). Maybe give a Str character a damage increase after blocking hits that take over half his stamina. I'm just thinking off the top of my head, but stuff like that. I should be able to see that in the next 5 levels, I get this new thing or this already cool thing I have gets even cooler. As it is now, just my numbers go up and it just doesn't feel like your character is actually getting better. Maybe even give one power to use as well, nothing too over-the-top and of course something you can't spam (like give a Dex character a way to quickly escape a bad situation or a Str character gets a big bonus to stamina or damage). In fact, giving a power like that and having it one time use where a bonfire replenishes it would work perfectly within the game in my opinion. I would like to see skills as well like lockpicking, stealth, disarming traps, and even speech (you can maybe talk your way into a covenant before meeting the requirements).
 

Doomcat

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Phoenixmgs said:
I'm not asking to get powers like having a rogue dash around area slashing everyone or asking to build up to some super attack after killing X amount of enemies. Give at least passive abilities where say a Dex build that gets to 20 Dex gets a 10% damage increase on an attack after a roll and that goes up every 5 levels. Maybe give a Dex build like a 5% chance of just evading a hit (they leaned slightly right and dodged it). Maybe give a Str character a damage increase after blocking hits that take over half his stamina. I'm just thinking off the top of my head, but stuff like that. I should be able to see that in the next 5 levels, I get this new thing or this already cool thing I have gets even cooler. As it is now, just my numbers go up and it just doesn't feel like your character is actually getting better. Maybe even give one power to use as well, nothing too over-the-top and of course something you can't spam (like give a Dex character a way to quickly escape a bad situation or a Str character gets a big bonus to stamina or damage). I would like to see skills as well like lockpicking, stealth, disarming traps, and even speech (you can maybe talk your way into a covenant before meeting the requirements).
Something I don't agree with is adding that "Random chance" element to a fight in a souls game. One of the things I love about the series is that the game is about you, and your character. Yes, character growth is part of it (weapon requirements, upgrades, etc) and yet, if we add the "you have a 5% chance to dodge an attack entirely" ability, all strategy and tactics goes out the window, x100000 for PvP (Oh my god I can see the twinkers now...)

But I digress, theres evidence that, so far, they actually ARE adding more character growth elements; specifically: Agility, Endurance, and (I believe) one other stat I can't remember the name of, are splitting off of the single "endurance" stat in Dark souls.

Basically: Agility means how fast your character can roll with the weight of equipment they have on, this right here is how a souls game should do character growth, IMO. As I understand it, its alot more dynamic then the "light roll, mid roll, heavy roll" system of DS, and will scale nicely.

And of course, one stat for your equipment weight, and one stat for your stamina, meaning your character actually has to choose between how fast they want to roll, and how much armor they want. Oh, and don't forget you need health and stamina as well, at least to some extent. Also some strength and dex to use a weapon...are you a caster? cause you'll also need intelligence/faith.

From what I've seen, DS2 is opening alot of diversity in builds, as well as more character growth, I'm very exited to see how it'll all play out.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Doomcat said:
Something I don't agree with is adding that "Random chance" element to a fight in a souls game. One of the things I love about the series is that the game is about you, and your character. Yes, character growth is part of it (weapon requirements, upgrades, etc) and yet, if we add the "you have a 5% chance to dodge an attack entirely" ability, all strategy and tactics goes out the window, x100000 for PvP (Oh my god I can see the twinkers now...)

But I digress, theres evidence that, so far, they actually ARE adding more character growth elements; specifically: Agility, Endurance, and (I believe) one other stat I can't remember the name of, are splitting off of the single "endurance" stat in Dark souls.

Basically: Agility means how fast your character can roll with the weight of equipment they have on, this right here is how a souls game should do character growth, IMO. As I understand it, its alot more dynamic then the "light roll, mid roll, heavy roll" system of DS, and will scale nicely.

And of course, one stat for your equipment weight, and one stat for your stamina, meaning your character actually has to choose between how fast they want to roll, and how much armor they want. Oh, and don't forget you need health and stamina as well, at least to some extent. Also some strength and dex to use a weapon...are you a caster? cause you'll also need intelligence/faith.

From what I've seen, DS2 is opening alot of diversity in builds, as well as more character growth, I'm very exited to see how it'll all play out.
What about stuff like a 10% damage increase on an attack right after a roll for Dex-based characters? What's wrong with that? I was just throwing stuff out there off the top of my head. Dark Souls now is nothing but leveling numbers, which is so dull and boring, I should be excited to level and it should not just be going from 20 Dex to 21 Dex, that's just bad RPG mechanics. I have very little confidence whatsoever that From Software can make a balanced PvE experience (from the horrible RPG mechanics in Dark Souls) let alone a balanced PvP experience so I don't give a shit about PvP as balance is key in any competitive game and the balance just isn't going to be there. How does strategy and tactics go out the window if a character has a 5% chance to dodge a hit? With that logic, DnD has no strategy nor does XCOM.

Adding more stats and fixing the current stats are good things. However, an RPG needs to be more than just leveling up numbers, you need to get some kind of abilities. Doing that makes the beginning of the game the same as the end of the game as say you deal 10 damage per hit to an enemy with 100 HP at the start of the game thus taking 10 hits to kill, then at the end due to your upgraded weapon and stats, you deal 200 damage per hit to an enemy with 2,000 HP thus taking again 10 hits to kill. See how literally nothing has changed but the numbers, that's what Dark Souls is now. Gaining abilities and such hides the fact that you are mainly leveling numbers while making the player feel like his character is really getting stronger and better. Plus, abilities allow for a player to tailor his playstyle more as maybe the Dex-based character has a choice between choosing the 10% damage buff after a roll vs a 10% damage increase on say a riposte or backstab, something just as simple as that allows a player so many more build options.
 

Fat Hippo

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Phoenixmgs said:
- Fix the broken RPG mechanics like fire magic not requiring stat investment.
Fire magic has been integrated into Sorcery, so it requires intelligence now.

Phoenixmgs said:
Stats being useless like Resistance.
I believe how well your armor actually works now scales with Resistance, so any build that wants to go armor heavy will now require investment into Resistance to make it worth it.

Phoenixmgs said:
Items (like the Wolf Ring) allowing builds to do things that a certain build shouldn't be able to do.
Can't say for sure if there will still be some absurd rings in the game or not, but they are putting a strength requirement on heavy armor now, which means you won't for example see dexterity build running around in absurdly heavy armor because their endurance let them do so anyway. And endurance no longer gives equip load, this is instead handled by a different stat, which exclusively raises your equip load. So they are really forcing you to invest in stats to use high-level equipment.

Phoenixmgs said:
Being able to put an element on a weapon thereby negating the need for stat investment.
All upgrade paths now scale with certain stats, so lightning scales with faith, and fire with intelligence. As far as I know there will no longer be any overpowered at low levels, underpowered at high levels, way of upgrading your weapons.

Phoenixmgs said:
- Give the enemy somewhat decent AI. I shouldn't be able to circle strafe an enemy for a backstab. Why is Dark Souls like the only game that allows you to hit an enemy in a group with an arrow and only that enemy comes to you?
Judging by reports of people who have played the beta, the AI seems to be far more aggressive. It is far harder to get behind your enemy, many enemies have attack which they will use if they sense you are behind them, they have a tendency to attack you in groups and follow each other, and will also follow you much further and aggressively if you run away.


I hope I put of your fears to rest. I don't agree with all of your criticisms, but I also found all the mentioned things worthy of improvement, and it seems as though they are doing so...Hurray!
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Fat_Hippo said:
I hope I put of your fears to rest. I don't agree with all of your criticisms, but I also found all the mentioned things worthy of improvement, and it seems as though they are doing so...Hurray!
I found Dark Souls to be very lacking and broken in many regards. Much of the fixes I listed are things that should've never even made it past the concept stage let alone into the game. There will need to be more improvements than just that for me to even be interested. And since they improved the AI in way that you will have to fight multiple enemies at once quite often, I hope the controls were improved to make fighting multiple enemies less frustrating.
 

Mental Cosmas

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Phoenixmgs said:
Doomcat said:
Something I don't agree with is adding that "Random chance" element to a fight in a souls game. One of the things I love about the series is that the game is about you, and your character. Yes, character growth is part of it (weapon requirements, upgrades, etc) and yet, if we add the "you have a 5% chance to dodge an attack entirely" ability, all strategy and tactics goes out the window, x100000 for PvP (Oh my god I can see the twinkers now...)

But I digress, theres evidence that, so far, they actually ARE adding more character growth elements; specifically: Agility, Endurance, and (I believe) one other stat I can't remember the name of, are splitting off of the single "endurance" stat in Dark souls.

Basically: Agility means how fast your character can roll with the weight of equipment they have on, this right here is how a souls game should do character growth, IMO. As I understand it, its alot more dynamic then the "light roll, mid roll, heavy roll" system of DS, and will scale nicely.

And of course, one stat for your equipment weight, and one stat for your stamina, meaning your character actually has to choose between how fast they want to roll, and how much armor they want. Oh, and don't forget you need health and stamina as well, at least to some extent. Also some strength and dex to use a weapon...are you a caster? cause you'll also need intelligence/faith.

From what I've seen, DS2 is opening alot of diversity in builds, as well as more character growth, I'm very exited to see how it'll all play out.
What about stuff like a 10% damage increase on an attack right after a roll for Dex-based characters? What's wrong with that? I was just throwing stuff out there off the top of my head. Dark Souls now is nothing but leveling numbers, which is so dull and boring, I should be excited to level and it should not just be going from 20 Dex to 21 Dex, that's just bad RPG mechanics. I have very little confidence whatsoever that From Software can make a balanced PvE experience (from the horrible RPG mechanics in Dark Souls) let alone a balanced PvP experience so I don't give a shit about PvP as balance is key in any competitive game and the balance just isn't going to be there. How does strategy and tactics go out the window if a character has a 5% chance to dodge a hit? With that logic, DnD has no strategy nor does XCOM.

Adding more stats and fixing the current stats are good things. However, an RPG needs to be more than just leveling up numbers, you need to get some kind of abilities. Doing that makes the beginning of the game the same as the end of the game as say you deal 10 damage per hit to an enemy with 100 HP at the start of the game thus taking 10 hits to kill, then at the end due to your upgraded weapon and stats, you deal 200 damage per hit to an enemy with 2,000 HP thus taking again 10 hits to kill. See how literally nothing has changed but the numbers, that's what Dark Souls is now. Gaining abilities and such hides the fact that you are mainly leveling numbers while making the player feel like his character is really getting stronger and better. Plus, abilities allow for a player to tailor his playstyle more as maybe the Dex-based character has a choice between choosing the 10% damage buff after a roll vs a 10% damage increase on say a riposte or backstab, something just as simple as that allows a player so many more build options.
While I think you're raising a valid point, I think you're going about it slightly the wrong way. The examples you're giving are really just numbers too. Numbers that try to drag a player to performing in their style of choice repetitively. 10% buff every time they attack after a roll? Great, they'll be rolling a whole lot more. maybe they'll combined it with some other skills that give them 15% vamp with that too, some ability that increases their rolling speed and distance, all of a sudden they are The Great Rollini, capable of rolls that would make a skeleton wheel jealous and hitting enemies like a freight train.

...While that might sound sarcastic, I think it's certainly a viable and potentially enjoyable way to play a game. I just wrote it and thought it was funny so kept it there in place of something more serious. Apologies!


Honestly I find in most RPGs the skill tree feels padded by things like the aforementioned "10% buff when attacking after roll", it's less about how it feels like it impacted combat and more how clever you feel when you realize it goes well with X, Y, and Z, one of which is hopefully an ability with a more tangible benefit (like in theory the better roll, or maybe now you cartwheel instead, although in practice how much does the distance really matter depends on the enemies).

Don't get me wrong, I agree the leveling system of Dark Souls could be improved, heck the exact potential problems i mentioned to your suggestions are moreso in Dark Souls. That being said by the sounds of it they're adding some minor tweaks that should be interesting (alright, nothing spectacular, but with Dark Souls I find you want the character to feel very human, in spite of the souls that strengthen them, maybe a little magic they never really grow into anything legendary, which makes it all the more amazing when they best such massive beasts. It's certainly not how i'd want every game to be, but i'm happy enough with it to be the case here), and honestly? I've always been more interested in the gear one attains then the leveling up. Now, the weapons and shields are (for the most part) done quite well, unlike some RPGs where they feel like a bigger number to hit enemies with (or a bigger number for some while a smaller number for others), they have their own intricacies in their movesets. The stats for me I only really cared about for getting the gear I wanted and keeping it viable throughout the game. Could a levelling system like the only you mentioned be added that would allow you to support your particular weapon and style of play? Perhaps, but I wonder if that would make it feel artificial, and woe to the person who's maniacal style of claw-and-greatsword doesn't have any good ability upgrades towards it and thus gets ridiculously outdamaged by everyone else. Not that Dark Souls didn't have weapons that tended to be woefully inadequate, but it would be even worse if this was the case.

I kind of agree with one of your previous points about how the game only vaguely classifies as an RPG, at least for me when it all comes down to it the game feels more like a hack-and-slash. Although I can understand why it tries to avoid the label, that particular genre has a bad reputation. It's certainly more about the action and less about building your character, and there's nothing wrong with that, but certainly being classified as an RPG can easily give the wrong impression and lure in people who probably are after a very different type of game.

As for the "evasion" chance, you have to keep in mind the games you mentioned are turn-based, if there's one thing I've hated in real-time RPGs it's attacking an enemy and a red "miss" popping up, it makes one feel cheated. Is there a place for it? Certainly! But in a game of Dark Souls which is trying to be "tough, but fair"? Probably not. The game wants you to do things yourself, your character auto-dodging one in twenty attacks doesn't mesh well with any aspect of the game.

In turn-based games like XCom and DnD it makes some sense, you need to have some sort of concept for the faster, more evasive beasts, and a high percent chance of dodging is one way to do it. And even then you've got people groaning about how, say in Pokemon their attacks with a 70% chance of hitting never hits while the Computer's always do. Someone's bound to be unlucky, or feel cheated because an attack with a 99% chance of success missed. While luck certainly still exists when you remove these more tangible "percent chance" they're somewhat harder to wail against, at best you might just yell "LUCKY!" at the enemy player. XCom and DnD are great examples of mixing the skill of actually using one's character AND building one's character in the first place to maximize their chance of hitting enemies for great damage while minimizing the chance they get hit, and if so for minimal damage, combined with the skill of using your abilities in an effective order, often in tandem with allies, taking into acc-well, DnD has the advantage of being a tabletop game that allows it to do a lot of fun things if you're willing to bend or make up on the spot some rules for bizarre circumstances. It's just the sort of thing that's nearly impossible to replicate in a video game format. Not to mention, depending on your group, it's less about winning then playing out a story.

But back to luck, it can play a part in the entertainment factor, I enjoy DnD and XCom, and the games seem to bring a bit of storytelling out in people, like that natural twenty at just the right moment, or a fumble or two that sends the whole place hurtling to hell. It's a way the weaker characters still have a chance against something superior to them in every respect. It's kind of beautiful, really. And it's certainly there in Dark Souls, just in a subtle manner.

Anyway, in conclusion, I agree that it would be nice for there to be more to it then adding numbers, but I kind of feel like you're going in the wrong direction, trying to make it a game it was never meant to be. Apologies if I've obtained the wrong impression from what you've said or put words in your mouth. I may have put a little too much stock in your "off-the-top-of-your-head" examples and gone on a bit of a rant on a minor technicality.

Aahh well, live and learn.



Oh, but moving back to WWmelb's statement. While personally I have no issues with the idea of durability being a more active part of the system (heck, i was one of those horrible people who loved using the scraping spear), I do wonder how well-received that would be (durability mechanics in general are rarely liked). That being said, enforcing the use of a dagger as one that requires backstabs and parries to open up the enemy for a killing blow (for heavily armored enemies anyway) could be a good concept in theory, further emphasizing the difference between weapons.
 

Baddamobs

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Aug 21, 2013
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Phoenixmgs said:
What about stuff like a 10% damage increase on an attack right after a roll for Dex-based characters? What's wrong with that? I was just throwing stuff out there off the top of my head. Dark Souls now is nothing but leveling numbers, which is so dull and boring, I should be excited to level and it should not just be going from 20 Dex to 21 Dex, that's just bad RPG mechanics. I have very little confidence whatsoever that From Software can make a balanced PvE experience (from the horrible RPG mechanics in Dark Souls) let alone a balanced PvP experience so I don't give a shit about PvP as balance is key in any competitive game and the balance just isn't going to be there. How does strategy and tactics go out the window if a character has a 5% chance to dodge a hit? With that logic, DnD has no strategy nor does XCOM.

Adding more stats and fixing the current stats are good things. However, an RPG needs to be more than just leveling up numbers, you need to get some kind of abilities. Doing that makes the beginning of the game the same as the end of the game as say you deal 10 damage per hit to an enemy with 100 HP at the start of the game thus taking 10 hits to kill, then at the end due to your upgraded weapon and stats, you deal 200 damage per hit to an enemy with 2,000 HP thus taking again 10 hits to kill. See how literally nothing has changed but the numbers, that's what Dark Souls is now. Gaining abilities and such hides the fact that you are mainly leveling numbers while making the player feel like his character is really getting stronger and better. Plus, abilities allow for a player to tailor his playstyle more as maybe the Dex-based character has a choice between choosing the 10% damage buff after a roll vs a 10% damage increase on say a riposte or backstab, something just as simple as that allows a player so many more build options.
God damn it, Phoenix, stop derailing the Dark Souls threads! I'd like to go to one thread that is, vaguely, relating to Dark Souls and for you to at least admit that others will have their opinions, and sometimes those opinions don't match your own. Like how the rest of us think Dark Souls 2 doesn't need a massive overall and become just another RPG clone like so many others already out there flooding the market, and think that the system, while needing work, doesn't need to change at the core.
Like, for example, all the talk of 'abilities,' they do exist in the game, but not in a traditional sense: the ability to out wit and exploit an enemies weakness is one the player learns from fighting that enemy; the ability to wield that giant great sword comes from when you finally sink enough points into the strength stat; the ability to learn new and powerful spells and magic come from you finding and learning how to use them. ABILITIES exist, they just don't exist on skill tress. If you want a game with skill trees, that's fine, some people like to have their character all planned out from the offset. I prefer a game that lets me decide what 'abilities' I get to use.

*Huff...puff*
Anyway, after that...point, to the OP:
Personally, I want to see a little bit of rebalancing regarding the use of some weapons in PVP: using a fire rapier while hiding behind a shield, while a legitimate tactic with weakness, felt a little un-killable at times. Maybe have it so when using a shield use weapon, it has much shorter reach?
Likewise, I hope they continue with the plan to make dual wielding a more useful set up. While using shields that were like sitting behind moving steel walls and swords bigger then me will ALWAYS be my favourite set up, I would like to see the other set ups all have a fair and even chance when we draw blades.
Something I want them to KEEP is the insanely frantic boss battles. I am confident they haven't changed one of their most challenging and rewarding aspects, but I'm looking forward to dying several times before I can kill that mirror warrior S.O.B.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

Muse of Fate
Sep 1, 2010
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Mental Cosmas said:
While I think you're raising a valid point, I think you're going about it slightly the wrong way. The examples you're giving are really just numbers too. Numbers that try to drag a player to performing in their style of choice repetitively. 10% buff every time they attack after a roll? Great, they'll be rolling a whole lot more. maybe they'll combined it with some other skills that give them 15% vamp with that too, some ability that increases their rolling speed and distance, all of a sudden they are The Great Rollini, capable of rolls that would make a skeleton wheel jealous and hitting enemies like a freight train.

...While that might sound sarcastic, I think it's certainly a viable and potentially enjoyable way to play a game. I just wrote it and thought it was funny so kept it there in place of something more serious. Apologies!


Honestly I find in most RPGs the skill tree feels padded by things like the aforementioned "10% buff when attacking after roll", it's less about how it feels like it impacted combat and more how clever you feel when you realize it goes well with X, Y, and Z, one of which is hopefully an ability with a more tangible benefit (like in theory the better roll, or maybe now you cartwheel instead, although in practice how much does the distance really matter depends on the enemies).
The thing is that it's always about the numbers. In DnD, you'll get a fire spell early and then as you level, you get access to better fire spells that are different in description but basically result in you doing more damage. Or if you take two-weapon fighting, you can fight with 2 weapons (cool!), but it's really just upping the damage you can do as well. A good RPG will hide the fact that your numbers are just going up.

Getting passive abilities that reward you for playing roguish as a Dex character is really nothing but a good thing. In Dark Souls, I played a Dex character and I didn't feel like a Dex character, I was able to block and attack just pretty much every enemy in the game. I had a fast roll but that was really it. It felt like I was playing a typical sword and shield character for the most part.

As for the "evasion" chance, you have to keep in mind the games you mentioned are turn-based, if there's one thing I've hated in real-time RPGs it's attacking an enemy and a red "miss" popping up, it makes one feel cheated. Is there a place for it? Certainly! But in a game of Dark Souls which is trying to be "tough, but fair"? Probably not. The game wants you to do things yourself, your character auto-dodging one in twenty attacks doesn't mesh well with any aspect of the game.
I got the idea from Kingdoms of Amalur that I just played, which is completely real-time. As a rogue, you get like a 6% chance to evade an enemy attack late in the game. Your character turns invisible for a second basically. And then the last thing you get as a rogue is that the chance goes up to 10% and you have a second or two to then land a hit where you get guaranteed critical hit for I think 300% more damage than usual. It was pretty freaking awesome. Of course, I don't think that has a place in Dark Souls. I do think that having at max a 5% evasion chance where your character goes invisible for a second could work or perhaps your action gets interrupted (if you're not blocking or dodging) and your character leans to avoid the attack, the interrupt would prevent you from it happening mid-attack and you still being able to attack (so you couldn't get both the attack and evasion). I think you could make something like that (and very much toned down from Amalur) work within Dark Souls.

Anyway, in conclusion, I agree that it would be nice for there to be more to it then adding numbers, but I kind of feel like you're going in the wrong direction, trying to make it a game it was never meant to be. Apologies if I've obtained the wrong impression from what you've said or put words in your mouth. I may have put a little too much stock in your "off-the-top-of-your-head" examples and gone on a bit of a rant on a minor technicality.
How would you feel about a one-time use power in Dark Souls that would could only be used once and replenished at a bonfire? A Dex character could get like smoke bomb power to get out of a bad situation (go into a room to attack an enemy but there were 2 more enemies in there and now you're surrounded) that you could level as well, it would start out as just a smoke bomb where the enemies cease to see you for like 5 seconds, then it staggers/stuns the enemies as well, then it poisons them too (not for a lot of damage but maybe like 10% damage). Or the Dex character can just get a simple teleport instead. A mage's power could be that he levitates like 10 feet up (for 10 seconds), can move, and cast spells. I don't know for a Str character as I don't care for them or play them. These powers couldn't be spammed since they are one-time use and just there to get you out of a sticky situation. Again, just something off the top of my head. I would like to have a power for your character that accomplishes something along those lines; not overpowered (that insta-kills all enemies around you) or spam-able, but gives a quick breather and a chance to get through a bad spot while not doing it for you. Both the powers I came up with would also not do much against a boss either (the boss would probably be big enough and just knock the mage out of the air pretty much), so you couldn't cheaply beat a boss considering there's a bonfire next to boss battles and make every boss battle too easy since you have your one-time use power available. I think it kinda fits in perfectly with the bonfire mechanic.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

Muse of Fate
Sep 1, 2010
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Baddamobs said:
God damn it, Phoenix, stop derailing the Dark Souls threads! I'd like to go to one thread that is, vaguely, relating to Dark Souls and for you to at least admit that others will have their opinions, and sometimes those opinions don't match your own. Like how the rest of us think Dark Souls 2 doesn't need a massive overall and become just another RPG clone like so many others already out there flooding the market, and think that the system, while needing work, doesn't need to change at the core.
Like, for example, all the talk of 'abilities,' they do exist in the game, but not in a traditional sense: the ability to out wit and exploit an enemies weakness is one the player learns from fighting that enemy; the ability to wield that giant great sword comes from when you finally sink enough points into the strength stat; the ability to learn new and powerful spells and magic come from you finding and learning how to use them. ABILITIES exist, they just don't exist on skill tress. If you want a game with skill trees, that's fine, some people like to have their character all planned out from the offset. I prefer a game that lets me decide what 'abilities' I get to use.
From the Dark Souls II beta, they have at least changed (whether they fixed it or not remains to be seen) all of the just plain broken mechanics of Dark Souls that I complained about.

The enemy AI is so dumb that out-witting an enemy in Dark Souls is just basically exploitation; circle strafe for a backstab, kill an enemy from afar with arrows, pull an enemy at you one at a time, etc.

That giant great sword is going to play just like the slightly less giant great sword you were already using. Mages get new "abilities" due to new spells but even the spell variety is pretty disappointing overall, you mainly just got a more powerful version of spells you already had. Mages got some new things, but melee fighters didn't. What is the problem with say leveling Dex to 20 and getting a 10% damage buff on an attack after a roll? How is that changing the core game in anyway? It's not like I'm asking to add in a combo system or something like that.
 

josemlopes

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delta4062 said:
Bring back Demon's Souls online servers. Demon's Souls was so much more fun to play through with a buddy, despite the lack of voice chat. Dark Souls has it so that everyone is on different servers each time they log in. Making it nigh impossible to play with someone you know.
They already fixed that in Dark Souls, at first it was a real mess of trial and error but now you can easily see your friend thingy on the ground (the first time in each gaming section still takes at most 10m to show up but after that one first connection the others are instantanious).

It could be better (not having those 10m of what could be called online troubleshooting by placing and cancelling the markings) but it isnt what it used to be and it wont leave you hanging.
 

DaViller

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Phoenixmgs said:
Monster hunter has pretty much the types of skills your describing through armor skills(there is no leveling in mh other then gear). That said i wouldn't want the same in dark souls.

Doing this would also funnel certain builds to only use certain playstyles (or weapons). For example a dex built with the X% more damage after rolling thing. A skill like that would favorise weapons with good rolling attacks naturally, so weapons that are dex but have shit roll moves wouldn't benefit from that at all even. In the end you might wanna use a weapon that would benefit from the str skill while your forced to level dex to get any damage going. A typical dex build right now has 4 primary weapon choices, the scythe, katanas, curved swords and rapiers (only most common, I know theres more). They all play very different, but they benefit from dex to the same amount, your rolling skill however would pretty much do nothing for the scythe or rapiers (not to sure on those) since theyr rolling attacks suck. This would artificially put certain weapons above others.

Finally the random dodge thing pretty much hinders immersion if you ask me. My character is supposed to represent me, so making my character capable of feats outside of my controll just takes me out of the game. In a game like dark souls a feature like this would feel very out of place and also lead to cheap moments with pvp. In that regard it would feel like adding random critical hits to street fighter or something.