Dark Souls Theory: The Lost Sinner is Witch of Izalith

[Mournful Crow]

In Dark Souls 2, there is a boss that goes by the name of The Lost Sinner. When you beat the boss, the armor vendor back in Majula will sell her armor set. When you take a look at her armor description, you'll see that the sinner was repenting for a misdeed she committed long ago, and it even goes so far as to mention that she tried to recreate the First Flame.

Now, we know that from the original game, we find all but one of the original four lords who fought the dragons in game (as in we had to kill those fuckers). Why wasn't the Witch of Izalith there? Well, according to the original game's lore, she died trying to recreate the First Flame. My theory here is that based on the story provided in the armor description in the sequel and the matching story found within the original game's lore, the Witch of Izalith survived the failed attempt to recreate the First Flame, and went into self exile/punishment to atone for her misdeeds that resulted in the deaths and mutations that overcame her children on account of the event.

Any thoughts/rebuttals/refutations/etc.?

 

[DementedSheep]

If you beat her on NG+ you also get Old Witch Soul so yes it is her. http://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/Old+Witch+Soul
Well it's a piece of her at any rate.

Although I thought the witch of Izalith was turned into that bug thing (which you killed) not killed by the flame? Although the Lost Sinner has a bug crawl into it's eye before it attacks you.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

I think its already a well known fact that the four big bosses in Dark Souls 2, The Rotten, The Lost Sinner, The Old Iron King and the Dragon that was eaten by the Dukes Dear Freja are reincarnations of the lord souls from DS1.
The big thing of Dark Souls 2 was cycles, and how everything repeats itself given enough time. There is an age of fire, then an undead either links the flame to extend the age of fire and temporarily break the curse, followed by an age of dark, followed by an age of fire etc etc etc on and on and on.

Also the Witch of Izalith was in DS1 technically, she was mutated into the Bed of Chaos after trying to recreate the first flame

 

[LostCrusader]

As was said in the post above me, the witch was seen in DS1 after she turned into the bed of chaos. I would bet the lost sinner is one of the daughters of chaos, perhaps the one that teaches you pyromancies. She could be atoning for helping the witch try to rekindle the first flame, which both turned her into the bed of chaos and also brought demons into their world. Another possible thing she could be atoning for would be showing the player her pyromancies, which caused the other pyromancer npc to go hollow trying to find her.

 

[default]

Yeah, I guess so. Bleh, it's such corny forced bullshit the way they clumsily reference and tie everything together.

Blah blah, slightly irrational Dark Souls 2 hate, you know the drill by now.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

My theory has been that after an age of darkness all those souls became hollow and forgot who they were like at the start of Dks1 a new flame created another kingdom just like the old and all those people are the same souls caught in an endless cycle of a sort of reincarnation after becoming hollow.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

A lot of people thought this was the case when Dark Souls II first came out, but I'm afraid it's been pretty much shut down.

First, what The Lost Sinner did and what The Witch of Izalith did are two different things. The Witch tried to create her own First Flame. She tried to mimic creation. The Lost Sinner tried to relight the original First Flame. She apparently went and found the location of the First Flame and tried to relight it. Why this is considered the Ultimate Sin is unknown. If I had to guess, I would say she tried to break the cycle, or force it, which is just as bad as trying to create life. The question becomes though, what happened when she failed? We saw a Chaos Bug crawl into her, but is that all?

Second, the Witch got turned into The Bed of Chaos. Her second-to-last (assuming you're not a monster and didn't kill The Fair Lady) surviving daughter asks you to kill her as a mercy. Since none of the other bosses from the first game show up because they're dead, there's no way Sinner is her.


Here's my theory as to who she is: She is the girl that The Old Iron King fell in love with. Now originally, this was a pretty thin theory, and the only reason I thought of it was because of the Two Bell Towers. Why have one in the Lost Sinner's area, if it's not somehow related to The Old Iron King?
Then the DLC came out and we learn that Iron had a pyromancer that was loyal to him. The name of this person is Eygil. Nowhere does it say if this person was male or female (that I know of), but it does say that she was fiercely loyal to him. It also says that she sought to give fire a "life of its own," and what better way to do that than to go back to where fire first came from? Perhaps that was her sin. She couldn't get fire to behave, to create life, so she went and tried to relight the First Flame. When that happened, the blast created the twisted Smelter Demon that killed the love of her life, and in order to make up for it, she punishes herself.


I know it's not perfect, but it's what I choose to believe...until there's something better, or Eygil's gender is revealed.

 

[Mournful Crow]

This is fucking confusing. I'm looking this up, and I'm getting sources that state she merely created the Bed of Chaos by accident, and then I've found sources that state that she was merely devoured by it along with her daughters.

 

[MasterOfHisOwnDomain]

This is fucking confusing. I'm looking this up, and I'm getting sources that state she merely created the Bed of Chaos by accident, and then I've found sources that state that she was merely devoured by it along with her daughters.

Both. She created it by accident after tampering and then it devoured her and her daughters.

Tend to agree with @Digi7 about the clumsy story tying together business, except I don't think it comes from irrational hate. It's very rational, it's about judging the sequel according to the standards of the first and finding it just doesn't match up in any way. I wasn't expecting the same experience again, but I was expecting an experience that was different and still great. It didn't really deliver.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

This is fucking confusing. I'm looking this up, and I'm getting sources that state she merely created the Bed of Chaos by accident, and then I've found sources that state that she was merely devoured by it along with her daughters.

I know, right? That's what makes it so much fun. I love digging through this stuff and putting little pieces together.

Anyway, your sources are both right. The Witch did indeed create The Bed of Chaos on accident. She, along with all of Izalith's citizens, and most of her daughters, were consumed by its creation. The resulting energy corrupted her and turned her into The Bed of Chaos, or at least that giant flaming monster that guards that small bug inside.

Two of her daughters were half mutated into spiders. I'm sure you remember Quelaag from the first game? And perhaps you found her sister, The Fair Lady? Those are two of her surviving daughters, and they were both mutated by the explosion, so we know that the explosion's energy mutates anyone it hits. Sadly, they are not the cruel monsters we are meant to think they are. Cut dialogue from Quelaag reveals that she is only attacking because she need humanity to heal her sister (she even tries to get you to turn back first), and anyone who learns The Fair Lady's tragic tale of why she is sick and blind can't possibly call her a monster.

Ceaseless Discharge, that giant molten monster? That's her son, or what's left of him. Also mutated. It's believed that the body he is looking over--the one where you get the robes that Quelana wears--is another of the sisters. She was probably the one that cared for him the most, and thus he grieves over her and when you dare to defile her resting spot, he attacks in rage.

You do meet two of her daughters that are still normal, although they walk very different paths. One, Quelana, decides to help humanity by teaching pyromancy--perhaps hoping that someone will come along one day to put her mother and her sisters out of of their suffering.
The other stands guard right before you face The Bed of Chaos. She's clearly gone crazy and attacks you on sight, still devoted to her mother despite what she's become. Your only choice is to kill her. The question becomes, how did these two daughters survive the blast without suffering any ill effects? Were they simply not there when it happened, or did they do something special?

But that only accounts for five of the daughters. The Witch had seven, as we see in the intro, so where are the other two? This is an interesting theory that I came across and I just roll with it. You know those two orbs you need to destroy during the fight against The Bed of Chaos? Those are the two remaining daughters. They attempted to shield their mother from the explosion, and so they were changed into her guardians.

So anyway, there's your history lesson on The Witch of Izalith, at least according to what I, and many other people, believe. Hope it helps clear things up a bit. By the way, this is the wiki that I like to use when I'm looking stuff up. It actually goes into the lore, instead of just giving the bare minimum and then going on to tactics and stats like some of the others:

http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Witch_of_Izalith

 

[Mournful Crow]

This is fucking confusing. I'm looking this up, and I'm getting sources that state she merely created the Bed of Chaos by accident, and then I've found sources that state that she was merely devoured by it along with her daughters.

I know, right? That's what makes it so much fun. I love digging through this stuff and putting little pieces together.

Anyway, your sources are both right. The Witch did indeed create The Bed of Chaos on accident. She, along with all of Izalith's citizens, and most of her daughters, were consumed by its creation. The resulting energy corrupted her and turned her into The Bed of Chaos, or at least that giant flaming monster that guards that small bug inside.

Two of her daughters were half mutated into spiders. I'm sure you remember Quelaag from the first game? And perhaps you found her sister, The Fair Lady? Those are two of her surviving daughters, and they were both mutated by the explosion, so we know that the explosion's energy mutates anyone it hits. Sadly, they are not the cruel monsters we are meant to think they are. Cut dialogue from Quelaag reveals that she is only attacking because she need humanity to heal her sister (she even tries to get you to turn back first), and anyone who learns The Fair Lady's tragic tale of why she is sick and blind can't possibly call her a monster.

Ceaseless Discharge, that giant molten monster? That's her son, or what's left of him. Also mutated. It's believed that the body he is looking over--the one where you get the robes that Quelana wears--is another of the sisters. She was probably the one that cared for him the most, and thus he grieves over her and when you dare to defile her resting spot, he attacks in rage.

You do meet two of her daughters that are still normal, although they walk very different paths. One, Quelana, decides to help humanity by teaching pyromancy--perhaps hoping that someone will come along one day to put her mother and her sisters out of of their suffering.
The other stands guard right before you face The Bed of Chaos. She's clearly gone crazy and attacks you on sight, still devoted to her mother despite what she's become. Your only choice is to kill her. The question becomes, how did these two daughters survive the blast without suffering any ill effects? Were they simply not there when it happened, or did they do something special?

But that only accounts for five of the daughters. The Witch had seven, as we see in the intro, so where are the other two? This is an interesting theory that I came across and I just roll with it. You know those two orbs you need to destroy during the fight against The Bed of Chaos? Those are the two remaining daughters. They attempted to shield their mother from the explosion, and so they were changed into her guardians.

So anyway, there's your history lesson on The Witch of Izalith, at least according to what I, and many other people, believe. Hope it helps clear things up a bit. By the way, this is the wiki that I like to use when I'm looking stuff up. It actually goes into the lore, instead of just giving the bare minimum and then going on to tactics and stats like some of the others:

http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Witch_of_Izalith

That's what I love about Dark Souls. It makes the enemies seem less like "Big Evil Monsters You Have to Destroy" and more like "Desperate Beings Trying to Make it After Suffering So Much." It makes me feel so bad when I end up killing them, because I can't hate them for what they do. They're only doing what they have to. I felt so guilty killing Sif because he was just guarding his master's grave. Seath never had the same gift of immortality like his bretheren, and Gwyn was only trying to keep his kingdom together at his own expense. It's all so dammingly tragic... Except for the Gaping Dragon. The Gaping Dragon was just a fat ass...

 

[cleric of the order]

Didn't we kill THE witch in the boss fight against the bed of bullshit.
Quelaana was clear we killed her mother and sisters.
now I think it's likely to be Quelaana who suffered from quite a lot of survivor's guilt i would assume.
Now the old which could be that insect the crawls into the eye of the lost sinner, infact the sinner could be a different person all together.
here's the normal description of her soul
Soul of the Lost Sinner,
prisoner of Sinner's Rise.

The Lost Sinner eternally punishes herself
for the sins of her past.
That could be either survivors guilt or the mother long lost

It is also good to remember on NG+ pyromancers come to her aid and who was the god mother of pyromancy, Quelaana. Did pyromancy exist before her interactions before humans, no Izalith catalyst.
It's also just a point of interest to not the colour scheme of the sinner is quiet similar to solaire, what with the green over white chest plate, just a thought.

 

[cleric of the order]

Yeah, I guess so. Bleh, it's such corny forced bullshit the way they clumsily reference and tie everything together.

Blah blah, slightly irrational Dark Souls 2 hate, you know the drill by now.

It's not irrational, miyazaki didn't design a lot of it.
It's wholly justified because of that alone.
But hey bloodborne's looking good.

 

[default]

Yeah, I guess so. Bleh, it's such corny forced bullshit the way they clumsily reference and tie everything together.

Blah blah, slightly irrational Dark Souls 2 hate, you know the drill by now.

It's not irrational, miyazaki didn't design a lot of it.
It's wholly justified because of that alone.
But hey bloodborne's looking good.

It's still a decently fun game. It deserves all of the criticism it receives but not the hatred.

But yeah, Bloodborne is looking like a very good step back in the right direction.

 

[sydneyficent]

Way late to this party, but hey. Just had a pretty weird thought as to who the lost sinner might be. I am leaning towards Guinevere. I base this on the fact that A) she is the only goddess to survive as she got out of dodge before the chosen undead went buck wild and slaughtered everything in Anor Londo. B) size wise she fits the bill. C) Chances are she returned to Lordran at some point and saw the wreckage the chosen undead left in his/her wake, and wished for a return of the gods.
With all this in mind, she would have gone to Lost Izalith as she knew that the witch was the last person to attempt to relight the flame. She would see the corpse of that bug thing and possibly revive it, (goddess after all), and together they would go and attempt to rekindle the first flame and bring back the age of the gods. Which ends badly for both of them of course. Plausible?

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

A lot of people thought this was the case when Dark Souls II first came out, but I'm afraid it's been pretty much shut down.

First, what The Lost Sinner did and what The Witch of Izalith did are two different things. The Witch tried to create her own First Flame. She tried to mimic creation. The Lost Sinner tried to relight the original First Flame. She apparently went and found the location of the First Flame and tried to relight it. Why this is considered the Ultimate Sin is unknown. If I had to guess, I would say she tried to break the cycle, or force it, which is just as bad as trying to create life. The question becomes though, what happened when she failed? We saw a Chaos Bug crawl into her, but is that all?

Second, the Witch got turned into The Bed of Chaos. Her second-to-last (assuming you're not a monster and didn't kill The Fair Lady) surviving daughter asks you to kill her as a mercy. Since none of the other bosses from the first game show up because they're dead, there's no way Sinner is her.


Here's my theory as to who she is: She is the girl that The Old Iron King fell in love with. Now originally, this was a pretty thin theory, and the only reason I thought of it was because of the Two Bell Towers. Why have one in the Lost Sinner's area, if it's not somehow related to The Old Iron King?
Then the DLC came out and we learn that Iron had a pyromancer that was loyal to him. The name of this person is Eygil. Nowhere does it say if this person was male or female (that I know of), but it does say that she was fiercely loyal to him. It also says that she sought to give fire a "life of its own," and what better way to do that than to go back to where fire first came from? Perhaps that was her sin. She couldn't get fire to behave, to create life, so she went and tried to relight the First Flame. When that happened, the blast created the twisted Smelter Demon that killed the love of her life, and in order to make up for it, she punishes herself.


I know it's not perfect, but it's what I choose to believe...until there's something better, or Eygil's gender is revealed.

Dude that is a good ass theory! Even meshes with the Old Iron King having Gwyn's since Eygil would be an analogue for the Witch who we presume tried to make the first flame on behalf of Gwyn.