Dating norms need to change

Riku'sTwilight

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Dec 21, 2009
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I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.
Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?


I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.


As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?
 

Phlakes

+15 Dagger of Socks
Mar 25, 2010
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I guess it's just tradition. People like tradition. There's not really a need to change the system, although it would make it easier on the men.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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Riku said:
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.
No, that doesn't suck at all.
So, you want to be able to dictate when you can touch and kiss a girl you hardly know and are just starting to date? Tough tits.
(Sweeping generalisation incoming).
Women are usually `in control` like that because if a dude was it'd be a hand up the shirt before he said hi.

Also, the dating model you have described usually only occurs when a guy is going out with a girl who is really hot and perhaps a bit out of his league.
I cant tell you how many arrogant (if nice-looking) guys there are waiting around for Miss.Right as well, who wont give the time of day to `nice girls`. It happens the other way around, too.
Plus, I thought the modern thing to do was split paying for dates 50/50? (Or at least every date I've ever been on has been).
 

ohgodalex

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May 21, 2009
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Riku said:
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.
what the actual fuck.
are you aware that you sound exactly like a rapist?
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
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ohgodalex said:
Riku said:
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.
what the actual fuck.
are you aware that you sound exactly like a rapist?
Thats what I was trying to say. I'm not as succinct as you though :D
 

BiscuitTrouser

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May 19, 2008
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I find in terms of money my girlfriend pays as much as i do for dates. In fact she only ever lets me pay for her if i offer too first, no hints or asking, i have to ask if its ok to pay for her meal today and if she doesnt feel too bad about doing it a lot recently she says sure. Sometimes she does the same for me. I feel thats a nicer way of doing it and im aware it isnt the social norm in places. Does strike me as a bit odd.

The kissing bit is rather true though. Although it sounds a bit.... rapey to say "controls when she is touched", she has every right to control that. What isnt ok is that men are assumed not to possess that right. My body is a free for all zone as far as women are concerned on a date or after, any hand can go anywhere without asking and thats just fine. Although im not complaining sometimes it feels a bit of a double standard to be forced into this situation.

Reading me carefully to decide if its ok? Fine. Allowing me the same privalages? Fine. Making her body a sacred temple for which i have to carefully get permission to touch her hand while mine has no rules whatsoever? A bit disconcerting. Im not that bothered, its ok, and regardless of social norms im very carefull not to overstep my bounds or offend, and for the most part neither is she. Occasionally this assumption shows though. The assumption im 100% ok with everything all the time. Right or not sometimes i wish i had the right to choose.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
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Hmm. Well there's always going to be someone trying to impress.

Unfortunately, much as times have changed, some things haven't.

Girls don't make the first move, and if they do that can, weirdly enough, scare some guys off.
Ask a guy out on a date? Well, that's often close to the same thing as making the first move.

As for paying for a date, unless you're going to split the cost somehow, it's again, the person that suggested it that's going to have to organise it and pay for it.

These things all come down to a single issue when you think of it like that.

The last part... How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?

Uh... Always? Seriously, the rest I get. But this is just twisted.

Kissing (and anything else of that nature) is a mutual thing. You might think the girl is the one that decides, but that's not true.
You both have to want it, otherwise it goes wrong.

If you try to kiss a girl, and she objects... So?
If she tries to kiss you, and you don't want to... Say so!
But that's probably not what you're suggesting.

The important point about stuff like that is there's 4 ways that can go, and only one way in which it involves anything happening.
The idea that the girl has exclusive say is nonsense.

(If anything, girls are frequently far more likely to be pressured or guilt-tripped into doing things they don't really want to in that regard.)


Of course, be careful what you wish for here.
Because let me tell you that you might find it scary to have to ask girls and 'do all the work', but having people approach you constantly is also pretty scary.

As difficult as it is being rejected, it's no easier having to be the one to say no. I find it very difficult to do without feeling somewhat guilty.

And that doesn't even get to the guys that "Won't take no for an answer.", who you can't even be kind to, or they just won't get the message.
No is not enough for these creeps. You pretty much have to shout in their face, and in some cases physically force them off you.

Be thankful you're unlikely to have that problem.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
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BiscuitTrouser said:
The kissing bit is rather true though. Although it sounds a bit.... rapey to say "controls when she is touched", she has every right to control that. What isnt ok is that men are assumed not to possess that right. My body is a free for all zone as far as women are concerned on a date or after, any hand can go anywhere without asking and thats just fine. Although im not complaining sometimes it feels a bit of a double standard to be forced into this situation.

Reading me carefully to decide if its ok? Fine. Allowing me the same privalages? Fine. Making her body a sacred temple for which i have to carefully get permission to touch her hand while mine has no rules whatsoever? A bit disconcerting. Im not that bothered, its ok, and regardless of social norms im very carefull not to overstep my bounds or offend, and for the most part neither is she. Occasionally this assumption shows though. The assumption im 100% ok with everything all the time. Right or not sometimes i wish i had the right to choose.
OK, seriously, that's just wrong. That shouldn't happen, but the only way you're going to get away from that is to make it clear that you don't want it to.

Women actually had to fight for that you know? It didn't just come handed to us. If you don't care, fine. But if it bothers you, you have to make that clear.

It's a double standard I guess in that men are assumed to always like it or something. I doubt that, but there's only one way you'll get that to change. (Assuming you want it to.)
 

KiloFox

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Aug 16, 2011
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Riku said:
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?
it's not that the girl is "in control" it's just that the want to do such things has to be MUTUAL; and, as a generalization of males, guys usually WANT to do such things, hence leaving the decision making on the WOMAN'S end... so no it wouldn't suck. it's actually the MALE'S decision to leave the decision up to the female. though in your generalization of the dating scene, said female would be so entitled that no sane male should want to get with her ANYWAY. having the male do all the planning is just wrong, and i'm pretty sure it's borderline sexist too. (yeah, nobody seems to notice when sexism/racism are turned the OTHER way huh? but it STILL APPLIES)

i happen to be a bi male in a homosexual relationship (information relevant) and when we went out, we both agreed that we would, went to predetermined meeting place (which was really quite unnecessary as we were already together... we were at a con and hung out the WHOLE time... but still) and then decided, as the two of us, where to go. (it was a Johnny Rocket's across the street from the con, they had GREAT food and AMAZING chili cheese burgers and fries) and when we were done, we split the bill 50-50 (since we both ordered about the same amount... but if i ordered something more expensive i'd pay more) and that all worked out quite well. (we eventually fell in love and got together and still are yada-yada not relevant)

i'm also quite curious as to the dating system your lesbian friends have, but i'd assume that it's probably quite close to the one i mentioned above.
 

ohgodalex

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Phasmal said:
Thats what I was trying to say. I'm not as succinct as you though :D
hahaha, i couldn't help but be blunt. he's not making sweeping generalizations, he's being nauseatingly misogynistic.

OP, i hope you understand that the motivation for rape crimes isn't usually a desire for the victim but a desire for control. did you happen to go as the FBI's profile for serial rapists on halloween?
 

Dumbfish1

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Oct 17, 2008
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CrystalShadow said:
Girls don't make the first move, and if they do that can, weirdly enough, scare some guys off.
Ask a guy out on a date? Well, that's often close to the same thing as making the first move.
That is completely untrue. The number of times I've had this conversation with all my different groups of friends, I have never met a guy who would be turned off by a girl making a move. In fact quite the opposite.
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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Dumbfish1 said:
CrystalShadow said:
Girls don't make the first move, and if they do that can, weirdly enough, scare some guys off.
Ask a guy out on a date? Well, that's often close to the same thing as making the first move.
That is completely untrue. The number of times I've had this conversation with all my different groups of friends, I have never met a guy who would be turned off by a girl making a move. In fact quite the opposite.
Women are told all their lives that men enjoy `the chase`, and suchlike.
Womens magazines (though I cant bear to read that drivel any more) often chastise women for emasculating men by taking away the chase.
EDIT: Gist of this post is that its generally socially ingrained on both men and wpmen that men should make the first move.
 

SovietSecrets

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Nov 16, 2008
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Mostly why girls don't date me. I refuse to go by tradition most of the time. My friends that are girls find it funny that I talk against the norm, but that's why I suppose they wouldn't date me either. Well that and I prefer being alone or with friends rather than trying to impress a girl and land a girlfriend. Friend zone for life and I like it.
 

Seventh Actuality

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Apr 23, 2010
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Ignoring the repulsive implications of that whole "controls when you get to touch her" bit, which hopefully OP didn't intend to come across that way so chill a little for now people...

Meeting and dating someone outside of a 90's sitcom's idea of dating rules is not that hard really. Sure, this sexist bullshit exists, but it's not universal and things are getting better. I'm curious as to how much of this comes from reality and how much you're taking straight from the stereotypes and presenting as reality. I wouldn't date anybody who thought it was okay for dating to work like this; it says a lot about them as a person, most of which rules them out as anybody I want to be with for any length of time.
 

Delsana

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Aug 16, 2011
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Riku said:
I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.
Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?


I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.


As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?
I don't see anything wrong with the current style of dating unless you're just doing it with the intent for sex or with the desire for sex before marriage, if you don't follow that line of thought and go for the relationship, it really seems to work out a lot better from my experience.
 

Slythernite

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Jan 25, 2009
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How often does a girl make the first move?
After several months I finally decided to make the first move with my girlfriend, and she said she knew I had feelings for her and wanted me to make that move months ago. After I do, she practically (and literally, actually) jumps all over me.

Why couldn't she have made a move earlier? Why was this exclusively my responsibility when she so clearly had some extremely strong feelings and knew I had similar ones?

I don't understand why these rules are in place. They're crippling if the male is indecisive or simply not bold enough.
 

Ruley

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Sep 3, 2010
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Todays media can be considered to have a heavy influence in how a girl reacts to the dating scene, take movies for example. I find it hard pressed to think of an A list title where the majority of the movie is about a girl chasing a guy, now i appreciate that those movies may exist and some might have slipped my mind but that fact that they are not prominent in my mind hints that today's media doesn't depict it as often as it should. As a generation of equality between men and women this strikes me as odd given that, in theory, nothing is stopping a girl asking a guy out. Appreciatively, it does happen and in reality alot of guys would like it that way because it shifts the nervousness of the first few steps to the girl.

Moreover, OP has some very traditionalist views regarding relationships, some of which i applaud, but whatever the "system" of dating, some things can never change. Such as the girl being "in control" of what happens, that's purely because the guy might be up for it but the girl needs more time to think or plain and simple doesn't want it at all. This could easily be reversed and a girl could want to do things and be nervous in pressing the issue or waiting for a response from the guy. (This point was raised earlier)

But getting right down to it, although what you say has some merit and for someone campaigning for a 21st century dating scene, you've seemed to have brought the stereotypical view of dating from the 1950's that i don't see these days. Usually relationships that i hear the most about (at an older age, (teenage / early University)) start in clubs and similar scenes. I very rarely come across couples that have met under more "pleasant" circumstances in which the OP applies and when it does, the pair seem mature enough to overcome such things.
 

Bubba Doongai

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Sep 3, 2011
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As others have said, you certainly could have worded it better, but I can see where you're coming from. There are a lot of rules in dating and relationships regarding gender stereotypes that are very annoying, especially the ones that seem to be quite deeply ingrained in peoples' minds. I get rather angry when someone says they believe in equality but then think men have to make the first move, pay and ask the lady out and they don't see how those two statements contradict each other in any way. I suppose the only thing we can do about it is disregard the stupid rules, although I can tell you that you'll certainly alienate a few people in doing so.