Daunte Wright Accidental Shooting

[Agema]

I've put some thought in this and I think there are three quick and easy statutory changes that could be made that would fix the problem real fast.

1. Lawsuit and settlement payment for unlawful and murderous cop behavior don't come out of municipal, county, or state general funds. They come directly and exclusively from law enforcement budgets and police pension funds.

2. No bail for cops who stand accused of unlawfully killing people in the line of duty. Period.

3. No protective custody for cops who stand accused of unlawfully killing people in the line of duty. They go straight to gen pop, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

1. Are budget shortfalls to law enforcement - with consequent potential adverse effects for the public - really the most societally beneficial way of dealing with these problems? And surely all that's going to happen is local governments will create contingency funds to cover lawsuits and protect police services, thereby effectively paying for it anyway.

2. All are equal before the law. If anyone can get bail for unlawful killing, cops should too.

3. No. Burden of care exists irrespective of the individual: anyone subject to excessive risk of harm in a prison should not be in that prison. We're not in the middle ages with vindictive, cruel and unusual punishments any more.

This isn't a training problem, this is a "cops are corrupt" problem. The "training" canard is a quick and easy way to divert blame and develop designed-to-fail non-solutions.

Corruption needs to be identified, proven and acted against where appropriate. Not casually throwing anyone and everyone to the wolves on the mere assumption they are corrupt.

 

[Thaluikhain]

At the risk of derailing:

Therefore, manual safeties on striker-fired pistols are redundant. They can be included, but they're not necessary for the sake of preventing accidental discharge. Pretty much all else is a case of "keep your booger hook off the bang switch, dipshit".

Well...yes...but surely the vast majority of unintentional discharges are negligent, rather than accidental? That is, someone pulled the trigger when they shouldn't have, not that the gun somehow fired by itself (can happen, have a talk with your armourer if you survive because it really shouldn't).

And, getting even further off-topic, but are most pistols striker fired nowdays? A bit of googling tells me that the US Army and the ADF both uses hammer fired pistols as standard issue, for example. Obviously there are a lot of striker fired pistols around, but I hadn't thought they were dominating handguns so much, though I could be totally wrong on this.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Daunte Wright shooting: Officer 'mistook gun for Taser'

The fatal shooting of Daunte Wright was accidental, police say, as crowds defy a curfew.

www.bbc.com

Didn't see a topic on this, so I decided to start one. Long story short, a cop apparently intended to tase Mr. Wright as he was trying to get into his car while being handcuffed. The problem? She apparently pulled her GUN instead and shot him.

She's currently on administrative leave while an investigation is launched, but I don't see any logical way the officer should keep her job. Either she can't tell the difference between a taser and a handgun while she's holding it, or she is using a convenient excuse to try to get away with shooting a man for resisting arrest.

To be clear, tasing him would have been justified, by the sound of it and the bodycam, as he was actively trying to resist arrest. This is just...either malice or incompetence.

Likely incompetence or even higher likelihood of it being a terrible mistake.

Unfortunately the police are human and as a result there is stress and mistakes that get made in the line of duty. They do not get enough training to wipe that kind of mistake and human defect out of them and these days people are arguing for less police funding so that the police training will get worse not better.

This should not have happened. But it did and when you deal with police and life and death situations mistakes lead to deaths or serious injury. I don't think this was a hateful act on the officer's part (at least it doesn't seem so). And the officer isn't entirely to blame either because resisting arrest and/or not following police instructions is a good way to get fucked up in some way or another.

The officer involved will likely be fired, or suspended and removed from public facing duty (I.E. put on desk jobs). Pretty cut and dry honestly.

 

[BrawlMan]

Likely incompetence or even higher likelihood of it being a terrible mistake.

Unfortunately the police are human and as a result there is stress and mistakes that get made in the line of duty. They do not get enough training to wipe that kind of mistake and human defect out of them and these days people are arguing for less police funding so that the police training will get worse not better.

This should not have happened. But it did and when you deal with police and life and death situations mistakes lead to deaths or serious injury. I don't think this was a hateful act on the officer's part (at least it doesn't seem so). And the officer isn't entirely to blame either because resisting arrest and/or not following police instructions is a good way to get fucked up in some way or another.

The officer involved will likely be fired, or suspended and removed from public facing duty (I.E. put on desk jobs). Pretty cut and dry honestly.

That's bullcrap and you know it. There's an on a mistake, and then they're just dumb crap like that. If you can't tell the difference between a taser and a pistol, and you're a 20 year veteran, that don't add up. This ain't no Little mistake, this is a person who I've lost. I don't care if they're resisting arrest or not, he drew his pistol and he knew it. I already remember the two times it happened before where an officer draw his or her pistol and they said they meant to go for their taser. Both happen in the late 2010s. One with a black man that was clearly surrendering and had his hands in the air, and a female cop went for her pistol for some dumb reason even though he was following instructions to the letter. The other guy was after a suspect, and wrestled him down, and somehow the suspect not grabbing for anything, the cop went for his pistol instead of his taser. These cars do have taser and pistol training. So either the training sucks, or they suck. I'm a betting man and it sure as hell ain't the training's problem, so I'm going to go with these people suck at their job.

 

[CriticalGaming]

So either the training sucks,

My step father was a cop for almost 30 years, the training sucks. He's told me many stories of dudes who broke down on the job, or have made terrible mistakes. These people are not super humans.

The design on the taser has been a problem that officers have complained about for a while now. But the departments don't have the budget, or the cities doesn't want to bother with, to replace the tasers with something that is distinctly different.

Veteran cops make mistakes, and usually the veteran's make more mistakes than the younger officers because the veterans get too comfortable.

The problems with police boil down to three things.

1. Funding (which affects not only the training, but also the quality of people you get because nobody wants the job for the shit pay)

2. Supervision - which boils down to funding as well because all cops should have "always on" cameras and have a higher standard for following procedures.

3. Image - The Police have had a huge image problem for a long time. A problem that has only gotten worse as social media has gotten more previlent. When you have a big problem with the image and public perception of law enforcement, then you have a lack of people who want to be cops. What happens when you don't have enough applicants? You are forced to reduce your requirements and screening to take less-than-ideal people. What happens when you take less than ideal people? This.

For the police to be fixed, those issues need to be resolved in that order. But the more people demand defunding, the more stress will be placed on officers than remain, and the more stress means the more fuck ups, more fuck ups means more demand for removal. Until there are no cops and you have crime everywhere. https://www.wsj.com/articles/police...u-s-cities-amid-defunding-efforts-11594472400

 

[Eacaraxe]

1. Are budget shortfalls to law enforcement - with consequent potential adverse effects for the public - really the most societally beneficial way of dealing with these problems? And surely all that's going to happen is local governments will create contingency funds to cover lawsuits and protect police services, thereby effectively paying for it anyway.

What you just described is the current state of affairs. Yes, I'm absolutely suggesting to make police departments fiscally liable (which they're not) for the misdeeds of their employees, rather than the taxpayer.

2. All are equal before the law. If anyone can get bail for unlawful killing, cops should too.

Part of bail scheduling is the existence of aggravating or mitigating factors, and bail amount can be set (or bail denied) on the basis of those factors. Due process and equal protection in this instance is procedural, not substantive; the Eighth Amendment is not absolute, and due process is satisfied by merely holding the hearing. Likewise, police are not a protected class, nor are they a suspect class or quasi-suspect class.

Unlawful killing in the line of duty absolutely can be designated an aggravating factor which would be grounds for denying bail by legislation, and should be.

3. No. Burden of care exists irrespective of the individual: anyone subject to excessive risk of harm in a prison should not be in that prison. We're not in the middle ages with vindictive, cruel and unusual punishments any more.

You must not be terribly familiar with the realities of the American penal system.

Corruption needs to be identified, proven and acted against where appropriate. Not casually throwing anyone and everyone to the wolves on the mere assumption they are corrupt.

What exactly is your evidentiary standard, here? I mean, to make that sort of statement implies what's occurred already isn't sufficient...

 

[BrawlMan]

My step father was a cop for almost 30 years, the training sucks. He's told me many stories of dudes who broke down on the job, or have made terrible mistakes. These people are not super humans.

The design on the taser has been a problem that officers have complained about for a while now. But the departments don't have the budget, or the cities doesn't want to bother with, to replace the tasers with something that is distinctly different.

Veteran cops make mistakes, and usually the veteran's make more mistakes than the younger officers because the veterans get too comfortable.

The problems with police boil down to three things.

1. Funding (which affects not only the training, but also the quality of people you get because nobody wants the job for the shit pay)

2. Supervision - which boils down to funding as well because all cops should have "always on" cameras and have a higher standard for following procedures.

3. Image - The Police have had a huge image problem for a long time. A problem that has only gotten worse as social media has gotten more previlent. When you have a big problem with the image and public perception of law enforcement, then you have a lack of people who want to be cops. What happens when you don't have enough applicants? You are forced to reduce your requirements and screening to take less-than-ideal people. What happens when you take less than ideal people? This.

For the police to be fixed, those issues need to be resolved in that order. But the more people demand defunding, the more stress will be placed on officers than remain, and the more stress means the more fuck ups, more fuck ups means more demand for removal. Until there are no cops and you have crime everywhere. https://www.wsj.com/articles/police...u-s-cities-amid-defunding-efforts-11594472400

I'm not saying you can't make mistakes or accidents happen but, you pointed out yourself. They're getting less than ideal people and that's the problem. You get people who want positions as authority for the wrong reasons or just to feel better about themselves because they're so freaking insecure. Well at the same time you got this coat of silence bull crap and nobody wants to snitch on anybody, just for convenience or just to be part of the group. Acting like they're still in fucking high school. At the same time, still supporting systematic racism or treating those that are of non White or black as lesser human beings. Get people that actually give a rat's ass. There's only so much fun that can be done to the police. I didn't ask for over a billion dollars in funding. I want human beings that show some type of empathy and just don't jump off on a person because of their skin color or religion. The problem with a lot of these cops that they don't want to take personal responsibility. Everyone else is responsible, but then it's tem only under excruciating circumstances. I met plenty of good and compotent cops before, and we need more people like them. Not some wannabe cowboy cops or super cops who learned all the lessons just for watching TV and movies when they were kids are teenagers. Ones with actual empathy and respect for their fellow human beings. Not seeing the citizens, even white ones as all disorderly, less than human, nor insects.

 

[Revnak]

If a year of ranting about this hasn’t made it clear to you guys I don’t know what will, but cops aren’t underfunded. They’re very very well funded, usually the largest part of a given municipality’s budget. The issue is money that could be more effectively used in the hands of another department to reduce crime is given to cops as well as the responsibility/power to deal with the same problems despite cops being categorically incapable of addressing the issue well, like mental health checkups.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Ones with actual empathy and respect for their fellow human beings. Not seeing the citizens, even white ones as all disorderly, less than human, nor insects.

You wont get that without the proper funding, and the proper training. And a correction of the public image, which the media isn't helping which is fine to point out the bad shit and hold people accountable. But there also needs to be some showcase of the other side of things. To also show the good that the police do, and make them appealing so that a new generation of people will look at it as a viable career choice. Sadly the only time you ever see positive interactions on the news is during natural disasters and shit.

They’re very very well funded, usually the largest part of a given municipality’s budget.

Cities spending on the police varies depending on the city. Usually 25-40% of the "budget" however those funds are often not allocated properly (going to the wrong shit like pointless equipment, incorrect staffing, and poorly updated tools). And just because the budget is a big percentage number, doesn't mean the actual $$$'s equals properly funded. $100 billion annually on police is nothing compared to the military which spends over 8X that amount.

Additionally police training only takes 13-19 weeks, and there isn't enough upkeep on the training. Ideally police should be required to do training at least once a year if not every six months. From driving, to shooting, to conflict de-escalation training, to any number of other things that the force is lacking.

 

[BrawlMan]

You wont get that without the proper funding, and the proper training. And a correction of the public image, which the media isn't helping which is fine to point out the bad shit and hold people accountable. But there also needs to be some showcase of the other side of things. To also show the good that the police do, and make them appealing so that a new generation of people will look at it as a viable career choice. Sadly the only time you ever see positive interactions on

Yet, the Detroit police and Southfield Police are able to get proper funding and do their jobs just fine. The former is definitely not perfect, but they have way less screw-ups compared to all these other cities and states I've been witnessing. I don't care how big or how small the city, town, or department is. That these men and women can do it in my home state, what's their excuse at this point?

Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question.

 

[laggyteabag]

Likely incompetence or even higher likelihood of it being a terrible mistake.

Unfortunately the police are human and as a result there is stress and mistakes that get made in the line of duty. They do not get enough training to wipe that kind of mistake and human defect out of them and these days people are arguing for less police funding so that the police training will get worse not better.

This should not have happened. But it did and when you deal with police and life and death situations mistakes lead to deaths or serious injury. I don't think this was a hateful act on the officer's part (at least it doesn't seem so).

The officer involved will likely be fired, or suspended and removed from public facing duty (I.E. put on desk jobs). Pretty cut and dry honestly.

But this goes much further than just a simple mistake though, surely?

I've never held a gun before, and I have also never held a taser before, but I would bet with a great deal of certainty - with my eyes closed, no less - that I would be able to tell the difference between a loaded gun, and a taser.

The officer in question - who is apparently a police veteran of 25 years - not only reached for the incorrect weapon, not only drew the incorrect weapon, but then went onto wave the wrong weapon around for at least 6 seconds before firing. Count to 6 in your head - that is more than enough to realise that the thing that you are holding, and the thing that you are pointing at someone, is not a taser.

I doubt this woman woke up that morning, and decided that she was going to shoot a man. But this is more than just a mistake - this is sheer negligence, and utter incompetence.

On a similar note, the fact that you believe that this person could get away with a suspension and a desk job is pretty wild to me.

 

[Revnak]

Cities spending on the police varies depending on the city. Usually 25-40% of the "budget" however those funds are often not allocated properly (going to the wrong shit like pointless equipment, incorrect staffing, and poorly updated tools). And just because the budget is a big percentage number, doesn't mean the actual $$$'s equals properly funded. $100 billion annually on police is nothing compared to the military which spends over 8X that amount.

Additionally police training only takes 13-19 weeks, and there isn't enough upkeep on the training. Ideally police should be required to do training at least once a year if not every six months. From driving, to shooting, to conflict de-escalation training, to any number of other things that the force is lacking.

More money on police training means they’ll hire more sheepdog and wolf warrior mentality trainers. More money into salary will get diluted into overtime pay to senior officers. More money into equipment will buy more rifles, body armor, and armored vehicles. More money is not solving police problems, it is the “solution” that has been attempted for two decades and it absolutely doesn’t work.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I've never held a gun before, and I have also never held a taser before, but I would bet with a great deal of certainty - with my eyes closed, no less - that I would be able to tell the difference between a loaded gun, and a taser.

You wouldn't. The tasers are designed to be handled almost exactly like the gun in order for the officer to not need extra shooting training for a separate device.

The officer in question - who is apparently a police veteran of 25 years - not only reached for the incorrect weapon, not only drew the incorrect weapon, but then went onto wave the wrong weapon around for at least 6 seconds before firing. Count to 6 in your head - that is more than enough to realise that the thing that you are holding, and the thing that you are pointing at someone, is not a taser.

Being on the force for that long does NOT mean you've seen a lot of shit. My step-father was an officer for just as long and he can count the times he ever needed to even draw his weapon on one hand.

You would think you are prepared for every crazy moment when it happens, but when shit is going down and you need to REACT, sometimes you just dont.

This statement is extremely unfair and is much the same as Armchair quarterbacking.

We all know what SHOULD have happened. But to say that we could have done any better in that tense moment is foolish.

On a similar note, the fact that you believe that this person could get away with a suspension and a desk job is pretty wild to me.

I think she'd likely be fired. Though with that kind of tenure, a desk job is possible.

Actually I think i saw that the investigation ruled the shooting homicide, so this officer might actually just go to prison. But don't hold on me that.

 

[thebobmaster]

As an update, both the officer who shot Daunte Wright and the police chief have submitted their resignations.

Brooklyn Center officer in Daunte Wright shooting, police chief submit resignation

Tuesday, Brooklyn Center Officer Kim Potter and Police Chief Tim Gannon have resigned from their positions...

kstp.com

 

[CriticalGaming]

More money on police training means they’ll hire more sheepdog and wolf warrior mentality trainers. More money into salary will get diluted into overtime pay to senior officers. More money into equipment will buy more rifles, body armor, and armored vehicles. More money is not solving police problems, it is the “solution” that has been attempted for two decades and it absolutely doesn’t work.

That's probably true. I'd be perfectly in favor of some government regulation that requires funds to be allocated in very specific and reformative ways for the police. That isn't an unreasonable proposal actually.

 

[Revnak]

As an update, both the officer who shot Daunte Wright and the police chief have submitted their resignations.

Brooklyn Center officer in Daunte Wright shooting, police chief submit resignation

Tuesday, Brooklyn Center Officer Kim Potter and Police Chief Tim Gannon have resigned from their positions...

kstp.com

That’s... a bit of a surprise? Usually I’d expect her to wait out the investigation on leave (to maintain union protections) and maybe resign from her union position. Maybe the protests have freaked people out. In any case, her resigning should be a good sign.

 

[BrawlMan]

As an update, both the officer who shot Daunte Wright and the police chief have submitted their resignations.

Brooklyn Center officer in Daunte Wright shooting, police chief submit resignation

Tuesday, Brooklyn Center Officer Kim Potter and Police Chief Tim Gannon have resigned from their positions...

kstp.com

And there it is. Not taking full responsibility for actions and running away. Why am I not surprised!

​

 

[happyninja42]

These "accidental" draws are always interesting to me (bit of backstory I was a military auxiliary security officer for the Navy) because we were trained to have our belts setup from least deadly to most. On our right side is spray, taser, firearm that way you have to make the conscious decision to pull your firearm. The idea that a 20 plus year veteran of the force could make the "mistake" is laughable.

Except I'm not sure that police policy is to have the default item be the non-lethal. Cops I see walking around here in Alabama, have the lethal weapon in the stereotypical hip position. So it's the easiest choice. I'll often see the taser either on a chest clip, or on the opposite hip, or possibly at the small of the back. So while I'm glad military rules are like that, pretty sure cops aren't.

 

[laggyteabag]

You wouldn't. The tasers are designed to be handled almost exactly like the gun in order for the officer to not need extra shooting training for a separate device.

I would. The ergonomics are similar, sure, but a quick search tells me that a loaded Glock weighs about 1kg, and a taser weighs 1/4 of that. You watch almost anyone pick up a gun for the first time, and the first thing that they say is "Wow, that is heavy". I'm sure most people would be able to easily tell the difference, from weight alone.

Being on the force for that long does NOT mean you've seen a lot of shit. My step-father was an officer for just as long and he can count the times he ever needed to even draw his weapon on one hand.

You would think you are prepared for every crazy moment when it happens, but when shit is going down and you need to REACT, sometimes you just dont.

This statement is extremely unfair and is much the same as Armchair quarterbacking.

We all know what SHOULD have happened. But to say that we could have done any better in that tense moment is foolish.

I wouldn't say that it is unfair at all. This person through negligence and incompetence killed someone. As far as I am concerned, they deserve all of the scrutiny that is coming their way, based on how profoundly stupid they were.

The officer killed an unarmed man. Now is not the time to be careful about whether or not im hurting their feelings.

I think she'd likely be fired. Though with that kind of tenure, a desk job is possible.

You haven't dispelled my bafflement. The fact that you believe that this person could possibly get away with this, by being demoted to a desk job, just because of their tenure, leaves me speechless.

I'd prefer my police departments to not hire people who murder unarmed people, thank you very much.

 

[happyninja42]

That’s... a bit of a surprise? Usually I’d expect her to wait out the investigation on leave (to maintain union protections) and maybe resign from her union position. Maybe the protests have freaked people out. In any case, her resigning should be a good sign.

Or, it could be that they genuinely aren't happy with their actions, realize the magnitude of it, and aren't going to try and continue in the police force after such a serious fuckup. I do think the US police system is royally fucked from top to bottom, I do think that not every single cop is a festering douchebag, and that some of them, would indeed make the conscious choice to not be a cop anymore, if they errored so badly on what they were reaching for, that they killed someone.