David Cage: The Industry Will Die if it Doesn't Innovate

The Wooster

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David Cage: The Industry Will Die if it Doesn't Innovate


Heavy Rain director David Cage reckons that an overdose of shooters may kill the industry.

"I think this industry needs more games like Journey because it's a breath of fresh air; this is necessary in any medium," Quantic Dream founder David Cage told GameIndustry International. "How many first person shooters can we create per year? How many can we play per year? How many of them will be successful? Even from a business point of view, does it make any sense? I'm not sure."

Amongst the AAA industry that Quantic Dream is trying desperately to be a part of, the shooter, in both its first and third person varieties, has become the go-to genre. Cage isn't suggesting that all games need to be po-faced and introspective, but he does believe that the industry's obsession with shallow violence will be the death of it.

"I mean this industry will die if it doesn't try more to be innovative and to come up with new ideas and to talk a bit more - not necessarily serious, but deeper things at some point," he said. "It's great that you can shoot at monsters, and that's great and it will always be there and it will always be successful, but at the same time, what about giving the choice to people? Give them different options. So if they like that they find it, but if they want something deeper and interactive, they can find that too."

Cage also suggests that "most" videogames don't focus on narrative, and developers often view a game's story as "just a way to tie levels together." He then argues that many games lack a strong authorial voice, due to the fact creative decisions are often made by committee.

"Actually, this is not the way things are done at Quantic Dream. I work pretty much like an author in many ways. I write very personal things, totally subjective. I think it gives a special tone to the games we make."

Source: Gameindustry.biz [http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-07-05-games-will-die-if-industry-doesnt-do-more-to-innovate-says-cage]

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Zhukov

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He was doing alright until he started stroking himself at the end there.
 

Norix596

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Activision seems to be doing pretty well without any innovation. How many times more copies of Call of Duty 7-ish were sold than Heavy Rain?
 

JokerboyJordan

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And I think you're games come off as M.Night.Shyamalan movies, so I don't think they have to necessarily follow in your footsteps.

Of course, we do need more originality out there, something more than shooters. We also do need better and deeper storytelling, and for gaming as a medium to not be afraid to show serious issues, without being jumped on and without it being used to sell the game.
*Looks at Tomb Raider*
 

Kapol

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May 2, 2010
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This man is wrong. That's pretty much obvious. Not that I disagree with the idea that there needs to be more variety in games mind you. But the idea that the industry will 'die' without it is one of the dumbest statements I can imagine. Shooters are the highest sellers because they appeal to both the hardcore crowd and parts of the casual crowd. That's why your typical awful shooter will sell better then, say, Heavy Rain.

But even if the AAA industry did somehow manage to implode, it wouldn't be the death of the entire industry. We'd have indie gaming, which has been doing fairly well for itself. And then there's the casual market which has so much of the market right now it's not even funny. To act like the entire industry will die based on one genre is a fairly foolish idea.
 

The.Bard

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Mr. Cage, your ginormous ego is going to send our world into another ice age...

 

KoudelkaMorgan

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Sadly I find that I end up playing and wanting more of the games I already have, rather than anything "Innovative"

Take Dragon Quest, I've played and enjoyed all but #7, yet I have zero interest in what 10 is selling itself as.

Castlevania, I didn't really like LoS but didn't hate it either. Wish there were some new 2D action platformer ones, whether they are like the original or like symphony of the night. The classic monsters just look goofy in 3D and the combat was better when it involved a button for jump and a button for attack. That statement holds true for most franchises that crossed over to 3D.

The industry as a whole does need to diversify, but I just wish part of that robust new variation would involve revisiting and perhaps perfecting the fallen genres such as platformers.

The guy in the article seems to have the same idea, only he has a chub for adventure games and seems to think that games like Heavy Rain are somehow the highpoint of innovation. Adventure games, or story heavy games with branching narratives are as old as mud, or MUDS rather. Adding fancy graphics and edgy moral choices doesn't make them magic.

Although if they still made games like Shadowgate and Uninvited with fancy graphics, but the same old Take, Hit, Open etc. interface I'd buy it right up.

They could even use motion controls in a non idiotic tacked on way and actually let you examine stuff. That would be one use for the Wii U. You are in an adventure game and you use the controller as a PDA or you can use it like an ereader for a book you picked up in game.

I assume that is the kind of innovation he wants to see.

And I want another R-type Game. True the only one I really liked or even beat was R-Type Final but seriously...where are the R-Type and Gradius games? There weren't any this generation.
 

Don Savik

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I love Heavy Rain, but its not a very good "game". Its like a virtual choose-your-own adventure mystery book. Now if you can make a game as fun as Tribes Ascend with the writing level of Heavy Rain then you can make comments like these.

Story in games are great, don't get me wrong, but any game that craves replayability 90% of the time can't rely on story, as nobody wants to do the same story again multiple times over and fucking over again. It has to be gameplay that keeps bringing people back.

More games don't have to focus on stories.

More games have to focus on being good GAMES.
 

Toilet

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I kinda hope gaming does die. The big companies are already sewing the seeds of their destruction with massive bloated budgets while trying to appeal to everyone and then killing the studio when the game doesn't ship the millions of copies needed (unless you are Call Of Duty).

"Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well and in my personal opinion independent developers and their games aren't that good either. At best they are fun for a few minutes but they are not substantial enough to support an entire industry.

I would rather gaming die now and be reborn from the ashes in a few years than it continue as it is now, it would be nice to catch up on my backlog to.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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Cage is hilarious. If the sales data of "Generic Modern Military Shooter 12" is any indication, minor iteration is the way to go.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Lol. Games are fine. The industry is fine. More money than ever before is being made and more people than ever before are playing video games (as a percentage of the public).

They said in 1970 we'd have an ice age by now. They said in 1999 all the computers would die. They said global warming would kill us all. They say every fucking year that the world is going to end.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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Mr. Cage is right. Except that gaming won't die, it'll simply reset itself.

Just like the movie industry gaming is ultimately going to collapse under it's own weight to a point where it can sustain itself again.
 

CardinalPiggles

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As long as there are ranty teenagers playing games, the games industry will continue, not necessarily in a direction everyone will abide, but a direction none the less.
 

surg3n

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The problem is not ours, it's the industries! it's greed.

FFS why do we always hear these blowhards, banging on about lack of originality, about how the Indi developers are doing things better. Here's a question - why is it that indi developers are making the changes the industry needs, why not the big name publishers?...

Greed.

Everyone wants to write the COD beating FPS game, or the Gears beating TPS, or the WoW beating MMO... there is a distinct lack of innovation, and the only cure is for guys like that to turn around and boldly stand up to the publishers. Won't happen, so instead just focus on ranting to the gamers, like preaching to the choir.

Gamers are not the industries undiscovered solution to their own bloody problems. We tend to buy good games, be they AAA FPS games, or indi games, or whatever that takes our fancy. If the big publishers can't provide original and engaging gameplay, then they deserve to wallow in their shallow little puddles of shit. We won't suffer - because the more gamer coin out there not being spent on all those FPS games, means that there's more for them to spend on iOS games, Android games, and of course the bigger indi games like Journey and Minecraft. Money that goes a lot further, in the pocket of someone who didn't expect it, didn't create their game on the back of it. Personally, I'd rather help out the guys who want nothing more than to entertain us, who would make their games regardless of how much money they make. Sadly, the only people who are capable of this attitude are people who have never worked in the industry, people who have not been tainted by that environment. And that includes these Kickstarted projects that we shouldn't really have to fund - I won't back a project that is using public funding to bypass a publisher, and make the developers a lot more money. Surely Kickstarter is there to help struggling developers, writers, artists - not to replace Activision!.

It's not all sour news though, I mean I'm imensely looking forward to Farcry3, and Borderlands2, triple A needn't be all about the same brownish-greyish-brown environments and gameplay, you just have to excercise some taste - be a bit more discerning, maybe skip the next incarnation of COD and get Farcry3 instead. It would be great if a game like Farcry made it as big as COD - with the user designed levels etc it would be a massive amount of game for your money... instead of an 8 hour campaign and multiplayer that's died out within 3 months.
 

SecondPrize

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Games have a good deal of gameplay, so i'm not certain this guy is the best person to talk about them.
 

Vault101

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Toilet said:
I kinda hope gaming does die. The big companies are already sewing the seeds of their destruction with massive bloated budgets while trying to appeal to everyone and then killing the studio when the game doesn't ship the millions of copies needed (unless you are Call Of Duty).

"Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well and in my personal opinion independent developers and their games aren't that good either. At best they are fun for a few minutes but they are not substantial enough to support an entire industry.

I would rather gaming die now and be reborn from the ashes in a few years than it continue as it is now, it would be nice to catch up on my backlog to.
no thanks

I like my AAA games

""Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well"- in regards to what exactly?
 

Deadyawn

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That isn't quite how it works. The games industry will keep making shooters as long as people keep buying them. So either that doesn't change or it does and they start to branch out more. Niether of those things sound much like death to me.

I'm as sick of the "me too" COD clones as the next guy but having everyone trying to muscle in on the exact same market isn't going to kill video games. It might suck but games will persist.

You know, I kind of like what this guy is saying. I really want more games to focus on narrative even just a little bit more. It's incredible how many games have completely nonsensical and stupid writing just because the devs didn't care enough to do it properly, despite how much better off they would have been with it. I've seen that games can be just as capable of carrying a message and delivering a story as any book or movie but it just isn't happening.

So I agree with him even if he didn't phrase it quite right.
 

newdarkcloud

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I agree that FPS after FPS gets old... really old. I agree that developers need to innovate and give us more variety in terms of games.

But I disagree on the assertion of development by committee being a bad idea. In fact, I think that's one of the biggest problems with his games. Someone needs to go in and review his writing. Tell him what sucks and what's good about it.

I'm indifferent to the statement about game being designed with the levels in mind and with the story just being a way to tie it together. While it's true and story should be important, the game should always be top priority. It should be fun to play.
 

Vault101

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JokerboyJordan said:
And I think you're games come off as M.Night.Shyamalan movies, so I don't think they have to necessarily follow in your footsteps.

Of course, we do need more originality out there, something more than shooters. We also do need better and deeper storytelling, and for gaming as a medium to not be afraid to show serious issues, without being jumped on and without it being used to sell the game.
*Looks at Tomb Raider*
I think in that case it was blow waaaaay out of proportion and its wasn't exactly their fault
 

Littaly

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Is it that time of year again? David Cage looking down on the rest of the industry from his high horse, still not noticing he's sitting on a pony?

He's got a point, that's the sad part. There needs to be more, better narrative, and games need to start being more than a combat simulator. But the solution is not making glorified FMV-games with sub-par writing, and as long as that's what David Cage is doing, everything he says will ring somewhat empty.
 

Seventh Actuality

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This guy sure talks a lot for someone who's made one so-so 'game'. Whether he has a point or not, he needs a hell of a lot more to back his words up.
 

The Wooster

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"Everyone Sucks But me!"
Hey Mr. Cage, God of War was stringing QTEs together and being Playstation Exclusive LONG before you came along!
 

The Wooster

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Oh, David. If by "special" you mean the kind of short bus way, then I'd agree. But nothing you people do at Quantic Dream is innovative or new in the least. You're still stuck writing poor rip-off Shyamalan movies, using dated quicktime events as your leading game mechanics and you're only progressing in visuals - something that Ninja Theory and every other studio already has done or is doing as well.

The moment you start writing something as well as the folks behind the Uncharted games, or even the folks behind Odyssey to the West (which, to be fair, was dated in terms of gaming mechanics before it even hit the shelves), then maybe, just maybe, I might start taking you seriously.

Until then, you're still in the corner with the dunce's cap on for the atrocity that was Heavy Rain.
 

WanderingFool

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Kapol said:
This man is wrong. That's pretty much obvious. Not that I disagree with the idea that there needs to be more variety in games mind you. But the idea that the industry will 'die' without it is one of the dumbest statements I can imagine. Shooters are the highest sellers because they appeal to both the hardcore crowd and parts of the casual crowd. That's why your typical awful shooter will sell better then, say, Heavy Rain.

But even if the AAA industry did somehow manage to implode, it wouldn't be the death of the entire industry. We'd have indie gaming, which has been doing fairly well for itself. And then there's the casual market which has so much of the market right now it's not even funny. To act like the entire industry will die based on one genre is a fairly foolish idea.
This.

Its doubtful the industry will fall apart if more developers dont fallow cage's footsteps.

And I really hope they dont fallow Cage's footsteps, cause Cage is an awful Shyamalan knockoff. As uniqe as his games are, the writing is just... *cringes*
 

Theminimanx

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Mar 14, 2011
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The industry is far larger than just the MMS developers, even putting Indies and casual developers aside. Sure, the MMS market will collapse at some point, but then someone will discover something else that sells really well at that time. And then everyone will just copy them, because that's the way the industry has always worked.
 

The Wooster

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I played Indigo Prophecy (aka Fahrenheit) and while it entertained me until it dove headfirst into retardation, but how "interactive" is it, really? After I finished it I started a second play, trying to change the story by being incompetent, but nothing of importance budged an inch. There are at best a small number of options to succeed in every scene. It's like a less frantic version of Dragon's Lair. Is this really what video games should be doing?
 

mfeff

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All I see here is a small subset of individuals in an industry desperately banking on a fragmentation of the industry at large.

By repeating that generic this or that "will" fail the industry issues a condemnation that the purchasing public is "demanding" something different.

Is it true?

Eh? I don't think so. In fact as a life long "gamer" (man I shudder to use that term), with thousands of games in the library... what am I looking forward too the most this year?

Phantasy Star II Online Localization - loot grinder

Grim Dawn - loot grinder

Planetside 2 - Persistent Shooter

X - Rebirth (if and when that ever happens) - Builder / Space Sim

Day Z - improvements - Semi Persistent Shooter

Faster than Light (indie) and Starbound (indie). - Rouge Like, Terraria thingy, maybe...

Now of course I own Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy. I won't be buying any more titles from Quantic Dream though... branching story line? GTFO, linear story with mildly different resolutions dependent on QTE's successes. It's a tech demo, sure it was interesting... for the time, for what it was... but narration? No. So poorly researched with plot holes that would make Mass Effect 3 shine as thematically consistent.

Complex narrative in video games is still the undiscovered country this generation. I put it right next to deform-able terrain and a proper 3d map interface for a space builder/rts. Tech hurtles that may not ever be solved.

Stuff that "was" on the list that isn't anymore? Glad you asked.

X-Com Reboot - I fear change, streamline =/ innovation

Sim City - Always on DRM and mandatory persistent multi-player? GTFO... I play a God game to be God, not to share a domain with a bunch of nobodies like myself... it's my fantasy F'Off.

It's not about the industry "not" innovating, it's about attempting to change the perspective of the very people that play all this stuff... for art? or to make a hedged bet as to "how little" game people will dole out a stack of cash for.

Bottom line, it's always cheaper to sell nonsense than it ever was to write a new engine or work out the complexities of a detailed system.

Want to sell an interactive book? Great, I'll pay the price I would for a book...

Want to sell a movie? Great, here is some movie money...

Want to sell a game with 60+ hours a solid game-play, that sounds about like 40-60 bucks.

[leaves soap box for the next contestant]
 

Xelien

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Cage sounds a bit like pretentious douche in this, but he's got a point. I loved Heavy Rain and Journey for the fact that they were different to my video game line up. I'm not saying that "interactive movies" should be the next big thing, but maybe some AAA developers can take a chance and make an innovative that doesn't follow the same routine of most adventure, RPG, or shooters. But yah it's pretty silly of him to think the gaming industry will die, shooters and causal games will keep money in the industry for a good while.
 

Eruanno

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Aug 14, 2008
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I only disagree with one thing Cage says, if we keep churning out FPS'es, gaming won't die, but it will stagnate.

However, I am so very tired of playing Johnny Spacemarine shooting the enemy because "They Are Bad Guys". Been there, done that in different settings. Surprise me! Make twists and turns and mix awesome game design that not only ties together levels, but which enriches a brilliant story. Engage me. I want to blame allergies when giant manly tears roll down my cheeks as my favorite character died. That being said, I still think that mindless shooters can still exist.

Sometimes I want to sit down and just shoot dudes in the face. Sometimes I want to sit down and get engaged by an awesome story. There is no reason why both of these cannot coexist and why people shouldn't be able to choose whichever they like the most (or in my case, spend all my money on ALL THE GAMES).
 

Tiamat666

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I'm getting aggitated about all the self proclaimed "X will die" prophets.

The day the game industry dies is the day civilization ceases to exist. Not a day sooner.
 

Blind Sight

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I think he's being a little dramatic with the 'industry will die' nonsense, but I do kind of want to see a bit of a video game market crash. You know, just to hammer out a few of the issues with the industry, like over-bloated budgets. Maybe get a few of the companies to see that their market plan might not be a wise long-time setup.
 

ElPatron

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"You know... Here at Quantic Dream we make very matchure gamesh... I'm an auteur, I conshider my worksh to be very artishtic. We try to appeal the matchure gamersh, giving them cinematic exchperienches, very personal, very narrative oriented..."


Clearing the Eye said:
They said in 1970 we'd have an ice age by now. They said in 1999 all the computers would die. They said global warming would kill us all. They say every fucking year that the world is going to end.
They said oil would get more expensive, they said climate would change, they said banks would collapse...

You get my point. From all the predictions everyone has made, most are bound to fail.

Vault101 said:
""Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well"- in regards to what exactly?
Because there is actually no "culture" to celebrate? Do the people that go to the cinema get together and make up a new name for them? Does everyone who listens to music get together to celebrate their culture?

Almost everyone plays videogames now, and it's such a broad demographic we can hardly call "gaming" a culture.
 

TallestGargoyle

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Toilet said:
I kinda hope gaming does die. The big companies are already sewing the seeds of their destruction with massive bloated budgets while trying to appeal to everyone and then killing the studio when the game doesn't ship the millions of copies needed (unless you are Call Of Duty).

"Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well and in my personal opinion independent developers and their games aren't that good either. At best they are fun for a few minutes but they are not substantial enough to support an entire industry.

I would rather gaming die now and be reborn from the ashes in a few years than it continue as it is now, it would be nice to catch up on my backlog to.
My backlog would vanish if the industry died...

Damn it Steam.
 

Sonicron

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That man will never ever die from rectal cancer. He's got his own head so far up his ass he'd see the earliest diagnostic markers as soon as they pop up.

And about the industry not innovating... while gunplay is incorporated into many games, a lot of them aren't straight-up shooters. Also, I'm not primarily a shooter guy, and I'm not starved for entertaining games. Among the flood of shooty-shooty-bang-bang we still regularly get quality products in platforming, puzzle games, strategy, hack-and-slash, and games that fit either several bills at once or even outright defy proper classification, and don't even get me started on the ever-expanding indie market.
Seriously, this dude needs his head set straight.
 

Lugbzurg

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There's possibly more shooters coming out these days than any other genre... But, I think there are more non-shooters out these days than shooters.
 

The Lunatic

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Honestly, looking at PC releases, I'm rather pleased that the format has kept such diversity.

If only the same could be said for consoles.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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ElPatron said:
Because there is actually no "culture" to celebrate?
well I don't know..conventions and such would say otherwise

[quote/] Do the people that go to the cinema get together and make up a new name for them?[/quote]
Indie film festivals and art film festivals

[quote/]Does everyone who listens to music get together to celebrate their culture?[/quote]
....yes

concerts...particualy metal concerts, or many other genres..."metalheads", kind of silly since music is often interwined with culture

[quote/]Almost everyone plays videogames now, and it's such a broad demographic we can hardly call "gaming" a culture.[/quote]

see I think the difference here (as with those other examples) is that the passion/interest goes deeper than "the vanilla mainstream" hence why we have art films and obscure genres of music

the difference between me and some guy that playes COD now and again is I discuss games online, I read alot of gaming related news, watch alot of niche gaming relates shows and I have an interestes as too whats going on in the industry...probably smilar with people who like other things
 

Toilet

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Vault101 said:
Toilet said:
I kinda hope gaming does die. The big companies are already sewing the seeds of their destruction with massive bloated budgets while trying to appeal to everyone and then killing the studio when the game doesn't ship the millions of copies needed (unless you are Call Of Duty).

"Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well and in my personal opinion independent developers and their games aren't that good either. At best they are fun for a few minutes but they are not substantial enough to support an entire industry.

I would rather gaming die now and be reborn from the ashes in a few years than it continue as it is now, it would be nice to catch up on my backlog to.
no thanks

I like my AAA games

""Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well"- in regards to what exactly?
In regard to stuff like the VGAs, Felicia Day, Tropes vs. Women, Major League Gaming, The Big Bang Theory and many many other things which I have little time and patience to look up.

The only part of "Gaming Culture" that has any positive effect on video games is the Mod Communities.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Toilet said:
[In regard to stuff like the VGAs, Felicia Day, Tropes vs. Women, Major League Gaming, The Big Bang Theory and many many other things which I have little time and patience to look up.

The only part of "Gaming Culture" that has any positive effect on video games is the Mod Communities.
1. VGA's.....so? like does anyone care about the MTV movie awards? they don't hurt the film industry

2. Felicia Day?...weather or not shes a "grrrl gamur" is subjective (personally I think people just freak out becuase she's a girl) theres nothing wrong with her...hell when the controversy struck alot of people were like "who"?

3. Tropes vs Women- biased yes, but hey gamers can be sexist shitheads somtimes, again this was just a one off controversy

4.Major League Gaming- don;t know much about it...not sure how its a problem

5.The Big Bang Theory - the fuck? big bang theory is a silly mainstream sitcom that has pretty much NOTHING to do with what we call "gaming culture" (which presides mainly on the internet)

honestly? the anti consumer bullshit from publishers is worth worrying over...stuff that affects the actual [i/]games[/i], not this crap
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Thank you for stating the painfully obvious, Cage. BTW, call back when you do something that can be called innovative instead of just a shallow, egotistical wankfest like Heavy Rain was.
 

The Wooster

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Jul 15, 2008
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Toilet said:
Vault101 said:
Toilet said:
I kinda hope gaming does die. The big companies are already sewing the seeds of their destruction with massive bloated budgets while trying to appeal to everyone and then killing the studio when the game doesn't ship the millions of copies needed (unless you are Call Of Duty).

"Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well and in my personal opinion independent developers and their games aren't that good either. At best they are fun for a few minutes but they are not substantial enough to support an entire industry.

I would rather gaming die now and be reborn from the ashes in a few years than it continue as it is now, it would be nice to catch up on my backlog to.
no thanks

I like my AAA games

""Nerd/Gaming Culture" is already pretty cancerous as well"- in regards to what exactly?
In regard to stuff like the VGAs, Felicia Day, Tropes vs. Women, Major League Gaming, The Big Bang Theory and many many other things which I have little time and patience to look up.

The only part of "Gaming Culture" that has any positive effect on video games is the Mod Communities.
Most of those are things that are found in ALL communities and simply cannot be avoided when something becomes a part of a global movement, the rest (like VGA's and Big Bang Theory) are also byproducts that only underline the fact that this sub-culture at the present is attempted to be "understood" by the mainstream culture that never actually gets anything, but likes to pretend so every few years.

So no, none of those are "cancerous" parts of the gaming culture, which, to be honest, has expanded to not just be a simple gaming culture, but a collective of all geek/nerd cultures put together quite seamlessly. As far as that goes - it's one of the better things to have happened, because it has opened, even if slightly, a passage back to the way of thinking where people didn't mock intelligence or belittle things they didn't understand.

Now, if we could still get rid of chest thumping and bigotry we'd be all set.
 

Saucycarpdog

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Vault101 said:
honestly? the anti consumer bullshit from publishers is worth worrying over...stuff that affects the actual [i/]games[/i], not this crap
Could you specify which anti consumer things you're talking about? If you mean stuff like Project $10 or day one DLC, consumer's have shown they will still buy the games. And they don't have a huge impact on the games themselves. Just your wallet.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
18,847
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Saucycarpdog said:
Vault101 said:
honestly? the anti consumer bullshit from publishers is worth worrying over...stuff that affects the actual [i/]games[/i], not this crap
Could you specify which anti consumer things you're talking about? If you mean stuff like Project $10 or day one DLC, consumer's have shown they will still buy the games. And they don't have a huge impact on the games themselves. Just your wallet.
DRM, always online DRM, online passes and crap to combat trading in games,

doesnt affect the game? sort of

In ME3 there was a certain part of day 1 DLC that painfully and obviously belonged in the original game, on onehand they had to downplay that charachters role in the story so it wasnt "essentail"

on the other without it seemed you be missing out quite a bit
 

ElPatron

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Vault101 said:
[quote/] Do the people that go to the cinema get together and make up a new name for them?
Indie film festivals and art film festivals[/quote]

Really? Because those shows aren't in any way the representation of the general demographic of people who watches films.

I am generalizing for a reason...

- indie film festivals: yeah, right. It's very specific.
- art film festivals: they only include 2 or 3 kinds of movies. You won't find people who watch Transformers 3 there

Vault101 said:
[quote/]Does everyone who listens to music get together to celebrate their culture?
....yes

concerts...particualy metal concerts, or many other genres..."metalheads", kind of silly since music is often interwined with culture[/quote]

How many Justin Bieber fans do you find in a Iron Maiden concert? How many Megadeth fans are amongst the crowd watching Beyoncee?

Concerts are not a good representation of everyone who owns a MP3 player or listens to radio in the car.

Going to the cinema is not a "culture". It's part of our culture to go to the movie theater but that doesn't mean anything.

Do people say "You listen to music? Me too! Let's celebrate!" when they meet each other? No. Because everyone does it. Having a MP3 player is part of our pop culture but the fact that you are part of the 99% of the hearing population who has ever listened to a song makes it hard to be a "culture of listening to music".

I know this doesn't sound right because any form of art is cultural. But enjoying it does not make you different and gives you no reason to celebrate.
 

Atmos Duality

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Obvious to gaming "hipsters" like me, and has been for years.
To be fair, it's difficult to see those long-term burnouts approaching when everything was still growing...
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
18,847
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ElPatron said:
How many Justin Bieber fans do you find in a Iron Maiden concert? How many Megadeth fans are amongst the crowd watching Beyoncee?
hmmm..ok, let me try again

music and movies are very very large..where as gaming...while it is large (and getting larger) its more "niche" then those others mediums

and those othermediums have thier own "niches"
and those "niches" have their own...well "thing" I guess if you dont want to use the word culture

Hip hop/rap - obviously embedded in urban culture and all that

Metal- has its own following/culture in a way, people identify with it and have thier own "thing"

Art films- again a niche area

gaming "as a whole" (and as I said) I think is still rather niche...I doubt somone is talking about your mum who plays bejeweld when they say "gaming culutre" theyre talking about the enthusiasts

and even then you could divide it up even further

WOW- has its own culture

COD or online shooters- has its own thing

stuff like jargon and "in-jokes" and all that
 

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
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ElPatron said:
Vault101 said:
[quote/] Do the people that go to the cinema get together and make up a new name for them?
Indie film festivals and art film festivals
Really? Because those shows aren't in any way the representation of the general demographic of people who watches films.

I am generalizing for a reason...

- indie film festivals: yeah, right. It's very specific.
- art film festivals: they only include 2 or 3 kinds of movies. You won't find people who watch Transformers 3 there

Vault101 said:
[quote/]Does everyone who listens to music get together to celebrate their culture?
....yes

concerts...particualy metal concerts, or many other genres..."metalheads", kind of silly since music is often interwined with culture[/quote]

How many Justin Bieber fans do you find in a Iron Maiden concert? How many Megadeth fans are amongst the crowd watching Beyoncee?

Concerts are not a good representation of everyone who owns a MP3 player or listens to radio in the car.

Going to the cinema is not a "culture". It's part of our culture to go to the movie theater but that doesn't mean anything.

Do people say "You listen to music? Me too! Let's celebrate!" when they meet each other? No. Because everyone does it. Having a MP3 player is part of our pop culture but the fact that you are part of the 99% of the hearing population who has ever listened to a song makes it hard to be a "culture of listening to music".

I know this doesn't sound right because any form of art is cultural. But enjoying it does not make you different and gives you no reason to celebrate.[/quote]

Nothing what you just said makes any sense, and some of your sentences are just plain contradictory. It just seems like you have no concept what culture is, or what enjoying and celebrating it means.
 

ElPatron

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Vault101 said:
ElPatron said:
How many Justin Bieber fans do you find in a Iron Maiden concert? How many Megadeth fans are amongst the crowd watching Beyoncee?
hmmm..ok, let me try again

music and movies are very very large..where as gaming...while it is large (and getting larger) its more "niche" then those others mediums
It's not. Anyone who can afford it plays videogames these days.

PSPs, PS2s, PS3s, Xboxes... Or even Angry Birds in the cellphone or Facebook games.

It's about as niche as beer.

SpiderJerusalem said:
Nothing what you just said makes any sense, and some of your sentences are just plain contradictory. It just seems like you have no concept what culture is, or what enjoying and celebrating it means.
Then let's do this the other way, *you* prove that gaming culture is actually "culture".
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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ElPatron said:
It's not. Anyone who can afford it plays videogames these days.

PSPs, PS2s, PS3s, Xboxes... Or even Angry Birds in the cellphone or Facebook games.

It's about as niche as beer.
.
no..they don't...I'll say it again somone you call a gamer/geek/nerd enjoys games differencely to somone who is casual
 

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
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ElPatron said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Nothing what you just said makes any sense, and some of your sentences are just plain contradictory. It just seems like you have no concept what culture is, or what enjoying and celebrating it means.
Then let's do this the other way, *you* prove that gaming culture is actually "culture".
Easy:

Specifically, the term "culture" in American anthropology had two meanings: (1) the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively; and (2) the distinct ways that people living in different parts of the world classified and represented their experiences, and acted creatively.
Gaming, in all it's various forms, encompasses distinctly all the definitions and "requirements" of what culture is. It is a continuously expanding, growing and developing form of art with it's own languages, sub-cultures, cliques and life cycles.

To call it anything but is, well, simply put, wrong, as the facts will show you.
 

ElPatron

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Vault101 said:
ElPatron said:
It's not. Anyone who can afford it plays videogames these days.

PSPs, PS2s, PS3s, Xboxes... Or even Angry Birds in the cellphone or Facebook games.

It's about as niche as beer.
.
no..they don't...I'll say it again somone you call a gamer/geek/nerd enjoys games differencely to somone who is casual
SpiderJerusalem said:
ElPatron said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Nothing what you just said makes any sense, and some of your sentences are just plain contradictory. It just seems like you have no concept what culture is, or what enjoying and celebrating it means.
Then let's do this the other way, *you* prove that gaming culture is actually "culture".
Easy:

Specifically, the term "culture" in American anthropology had two meanings: (1) the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively; and (2) the distinct ways that people living in different parts of the world classified and represented their experiences, and acted creatively.
Gaming, in all it's various forms, encompasses distinctly all the definitions and "requirements" of what culture is. It is a continuously expanding, growing and developing form of art with it's own languages, sub-cultures, cliques and life cycles.

To call it anything but is, well, simply put, wrong, as the facts will show you.
I am putting you both side by side.

One tells me that "casuals" are not part of the culture (because they experience gaming differently), and the other gives me a broad definition that forces everyone to be included.
 

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
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ElPatron said:
Vault101 said:
ElPatron said:
It's not. Anyone who can afford it plays videogames these days.

PSPs, PS2s, PS3s, Xboxes... Or even Angry Birds in the cellphone or Facebook games.

It's about as niche as beer.
.
no..they don't...I'll say it again somone you call a gamer/geek/nerd enjoys games differencely to somone who is casual
SpiderJerusalem said:
ElPatron said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Nothing what you just said makes any sense, and some of your sentences are just plain contradictory. It just seems like you have no concept what culture is, or what enjoying and celebrating it means.
Then let's do this the other way, *you* prove that gaming culture is actually "culture".
Easy:

Specifically, the term "culture" in American anthropology had two meanings: (1) the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively; and (2) the distinct ways that people living in different parts of the world classified and represented their experiences, and acted creatively.
Gaming, in all it's various forms, encompasses distinctly all the definitions and "requirements" of what culture is. It is a continuously expanding, growing and developing form of art with it's own languages, sub-cultures, cliques and life cycles.

To call it anything but is, well, simply put, wrong, as the facts will show you.
I am putting you both side by side.

One tells me that "casuals" are not part of the culture (because they experience gaming differently), and the other gives me a broad definition that forces everyone to be included.
Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make them less true. Culture, by definition, is a massive and wide idea. Read anything about anthropology and you'll see. Gaming has over the years distinctly fulfilled all the particulars that define culture and has become a massive part of it (and now, in the 2000's, clearly it's own culture).

You can stomp your feet as much as you like and say that you don't like the culture it entails, but it doesn't make the facts any less true.
 

ElPatron

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SpiderJerusalem said:
Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make them less true.
And people didn't like ME3 because it didn't have a happy ending. Yadda yadda you're already covering your ears and you will now most likely ignore any reasonable argument.

My points are:

- People don't celebrate the fact that they listen to radio or go to the movies.
- Unless you're some kind of cinephile or a hardcore connoisseur, you're a "casual"
- Therefore there is a huge contradiction in here.

Take a look at your definition of culture. Gaming is subculture. It's part of our culture.

But it's not a separate culture. Most people who play videogames don't live in the internet, cut off from society.

Remember the movie Hackers with Angelina Jolie? They shown a subculture of their own. They even had their own "cultural events" (such as going to a concert or watching a film).

Conclusion - gaming is a perfectly legit subculture with it's own ramifications, being a casual does not mean you're not part of gaming, gaming in general does not have any reason to be celebrated because looking back all I see was corporations trying to fuck with their costumers.

I have no problem with people that celebrate specific things about gaming. Retro, online, LAN, beat 'em up, fps, jrpgs, whatever. Gaming as a whole is just as a motive for celebration as... Hollywood?
 

The Wooster

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Jul 15, 2008
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ElPatron said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make them less true.
- People don't celebrate the fact that they listen to radio or go to the movies.
As someone who has worked in both mediums, I can tell you that yes, people do celebrate both.

- Unless you're some kind of cinephile or a hardcore connoisseur, you're a "casual"
"Unless you're black you're white", you're over simplifying things and willingly overlooking all the nuances that go into any kind of culture. It's like saying "unless you can paint the Mona Lisa, you're a "casual" doodler."


- Therefore there is a huge contradiction in here.
Only in your mind.

But it's not a separate culture. Most people who play videogames don't live in the internet, cut off from society.
Neither do most people who love movies live in the cinema, cut off from society. Or people who paint, or people who read or write, or people who play sports. You're applying narrow margins only to gaming.

Remember the movie Hackers with Angelina Jolie? They shown a subculture of their own. They even had their own "cultural events" (such as going to a concert or watching a film).
You're actually using a movie that people openly have called out as being utter bullshit in every sense of the word as an example? You do know that gamers have their own cultural events? Film enthusiasts have their own cultural events. Radio has it's own celebrations and events, as do artists, athletes and every form of expression and art, so why do you cut off gaming as something that can't qualify? Your argument makes no sense, because you have nothing to back it up with other than "because I said so".
 

ElPatron

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SpiderJerusalem said:
ElPatron said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make them less true.
- People don't celebrate the fact that they listen to radio or go to the movies.
As someone who has worked in both mediums, I can tell you that yes, people do celebrate both.
I bet they feel unique snowflakes.

SpiderJerusalem said:
- Unless you're some kind of cinephile or a hardcore connoisseur, you're a "casual"
"Unless you're black you're white", you're over simplifying things and willingly overlooking all the nuances that go into any kind of culture. It's like saying "unless you can paint the Mona Lisa, you're a "casual" doodler."
Somehow I feel like you do not understand the concept of rhetoric. Just because I arranged some words to portrait the feelings of other people does not mean I agree with it.



SpiderJerusalem said:
But it's not a separate culture. Most people who play videogames don't live in the internet, cut off from society.
Neither do most people who love movies live in the cinema, cut off from society. Or people who paint, or people who read or write, or people who play sports. You're applying narrow margins only to gaming.
No, I am not applying anything. I never said cinephiles live in the movie theater.

Would you please stop taking everything at face value? Or are you just trying to come up with things to disagree with me?


SpiderJerusalem said:
You're actually using a movie that people openly have called out as being utter bullshit in every sense of the word as an example?
So because it's fiction my point is completely null? Who cares about if it's true or not?

SpiderJerusalem said:
You do know that gamers have their own cultural events? Film enthusiasts have their own cultural events. Radio has it's own celebrations and events, as do artists, athletes and every form of expression and art, so why do you cut off gaming as something that can't qualify? Your argument makes no sense, because you have nothing to back it up with other than "because I said so".
You have officially misunderstood everything I said, and truth be told I am pretty much convinced you did it on purpose.
 

The Wooster

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Jul 15, 2008
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ElPatron said:
You have officially misunderstood everything I said, and truth be told I am pretty much convinced you did it on purpose.
Well then, sir, you better start making sense. Because if people can't understand what you're trying to say (even when you try and dodge behind rhetoric), then the problem is in your argument.
 

ElPatron

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SpiderJerusalem said:
ElPatron said:
You have officially misunderstood everything I said, and truth be told I am pretty much convinced you did it on purpose.
Well then, sir, you better start making sense. Because if people can't understand what you're trying to say (even when you try and dodge behind rhetoric)
I'm not hiding behind anything if I have been paraphrasing what other people have posted in here.

Or maybe it's the YouTube Argument Syndrome. Nobody will read what the hell was going on and just parachute into a discussion.

SpiderJerusalem said:
then the problem is in your argument.
Or the problem is the fact that you have conveniently ignored my defense of videogames as part of our culture (which includes the so-called "cultural events").

From the wiki itself:
1- The arts, customs, and habits that characterize a particular society or nation.
2- The beliefs, values, behaviour and material objects that constitute a people's way of life.

I find it hard to believe that there is any country where people play games or do game related things 24/7, while having a system of beliefs based on interactive fiction.

Videogames are not an airtight hobby.
 

The Wooster

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Jul 15, 2008
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ElPatron said:
From the wiki itself:
1- The arts, customs, and habits that characterize a particular society or nation.
2- The beliefs, values, behaviour and material objects that constitute a people's way of life.

I find it hard to believe that there is any country where people play games or do game related things 24/7, while having a system of beliefs based on interactive fiction.
I take that back, it's not your argument that's the problem. It's just you. Nobody can be that dense, not even when they're trying (poorly) to be funny.
 

ElPatron

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SpiderJerusalem said:
I take that back, it's not your argument that's the problem. It's just you. Nobody can be that dense, not even when they're trying (poorly) to be funny.
Says the person that prefers to openly insult me and imply that I am trying to be funny.

It seems that the problem is yours, brah. Stop antagonizing people on the internet because you disagree with them.
 

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
15,305
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ElPatron said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
I take that back, it's not your argument that's the problem. It's just you. Nobody can be that dense, not even when they're trying (poorly) to be funny.
Says the person that prefers to openly insult me and imply that I am trying to be funny.

It seems that the problem is yours, brah. Stop antagonizing people on the internet because you disagree with them.
You seem to have trouble grasping the idea of what culture means and instead fill it with the most nonsensical generalities and exaggerations without a single shred of real, concrete proof to back up your opinions.

You also used the word "brah", which makes me think that you're nothing more than a pasty suburban kid whose only culture comes from Jersey Shore. Which would explain a lot.

Here's a thought: think about what people mean when they say film culture, theater culture, etc. What could that mean? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't mean that there is a magical island where people have these things as a religion.

Ignorance is never the answer, boyo.
 

ElPatron

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SpiderJerusalem said:
You also used the word "brah", which makes me think that you're nothing more than a pasty suburban kid whose only culture comes from Jersey Shore. Which would explain a lot.
>implying that "brah" isn't the internet mockery of "bro"

"Brah" is originally from Hawaii and was adopted by the internet long ago. Example, the meme "Jeep Brah".

I don't think that New Jersey is even close to Hawaii, if you catch my drift.

SpiderJerusalem said:
Here's a thought: think about what people mean when they say film culture, theater culture, etc. What could that mean? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't mean that there is a magical island where people have these things as a religion.
I've never heard anyone say that. Mainly because of language differences. In my country the closest expressions to those are more related to "cult" (worship) than "culture".

Again, a subculture is not culture.

"aquele todo complexo que inclui o conhecimento, as crenças, a arte, a moral, a lei, os costumes e todos os outros hábitos e aptidões adquiridos pelo homem como membro da sociedade"

Somehow I don't think that gaming (or music) includes the knowledge (example: agriculture) beliefs, art, morals, laws, costumes and skills acquired by mankind as a member of society.

From a Social Studies standpoint, Edward B. Tylor's definition is the most relevant. From an anthropological point of view, it's the identity of the people.

A gamer from Dubai does not have the same culture as a gamer from Norway. Their people don't have the same identity.

SpiderJerusalem said:
Ignorance is never the answer, boyo.
>slang used by Welsh/Irish

So Guido slang automatically proves me wrong, but when you use other slang it's okay?
 

The Wooster

King Snap
Jul 15, 2008
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ElPatron said:
SpiderJerusalem said:
Here's a thought: think about what people mean when they say film culture, theater culture, etc. What could that mean? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't mean that there is a magical island where people have these things as a religion.
I've never heard anyone say that. Mainly because of language differences. In my country the closest expressions to those are more related to "cult" (worship) than "culture".

Again, a subculture is not culture.

"aquele todo complexo que inclui o conhecimento, as crenças, a arte, a moral, a lei, os costumes e todos os outros hábitos e aptidões adquiridos pelo homem como membro da sociedade"

Somehow I don't think that gaming (or music) includes the knowledge (example: agriculture) beliefs, art, morals, laws, costumes and skills acquired by mankind as a member of society.

From a Social Studies standpoint, Edward B. Tylor's definition is the most relevant. From an anthropological point of view, it's the identity of the people.

A gamer from Dubai does not have the same culture as a gamer from Norway. Their people don't have the same identity.
*facepalm*

Here, let me help, this is the definition that Webster's dictionary gives to Culture:

1.
the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2.
that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.
3.
a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.
4.
development or improvement of the mind by education or training.
5.
the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.


Now, it might be because English isn't your first language, but I'll just point out that agriculture has nothing to do with CULTURE, despite them sharing a word. That's just.. not sure if serious or just stupid.
 

ElPatron

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SpiderJerusalem said:
That definition sounds a lot like the Wiki. At least the Wiki denounces the definitions used in the fields of science, like the Taylor's definition.

SpiderJerusalem said:
Now, it might be because English isn't your first language, but I'll just point out that agriculture has nothing to do with CULTURE, despite them sharing a word. That's just.. not sure if serious or just stupid.
Wiki: Culture (Latin: cultura, lit. "cultivation")

Cultivation is both related to the growth of plants and breeding of animals. The first civilizations developed knowledge where they based their production, economy, social structure, beliefs and rituals, etc - all based on agriculture.

The more you know...
 

The Wooster

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Jul 15, 2008
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ElPatron said:
Wiki: Culture (Latin: cultura, lit. "cultivation")

Cultivation is both related to the growth of plants and breeding of animals. The first civilizations developed knowledge where they based their production, economy, social structure, beliefs and rituals, etc - all based on agriculture.

The more you know...
Good for you for picking up the FIRST LINE you read on that article, if you had read a bit further (it's recommended) you'd have noticed that after a few centuries the meaning has changed and changed again, not even resembling in it's current form what it used to before.
 

ElPatron

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SpiderJerusalem said:
ElPatron said:
Wiki: Culture (Latin: cultura, lit. "cultivation")

Cultivation is both related to the growth of plants and breeding of animals. The first civilizations developed knowledge where they based their production, economy, social structure, beliefs and rituals, etc - all based on agriculture.

The more you know...
Good for you for picking up the FIRST LINE you read on that article, if you had read a bit further (it's recommended) you'd have noticed that after a few centuries the meaning has changed and changed again, not even resembling in it's current form what it used to before.
"HURR DURR I'LL IGNORE ALL YOUR PREVIOUS POSTS AND JUST HAMMER THIS ONE BECAUSE IT QUOTES WIKIPEDIA. HOW DARE YOU QUOTE RELEVANT STUFF?"

SpiderJerusalem said:
I'll just point out that agriculture has nothing to do with CULTURE
wikipedia said:
Culture (Latin: cultura, lit. "cultivation")
Case in point, etiology.

How about you give up trying to create an enemy in me? All you have proven so far is what you'll resort to personal attacks on almost every post and backpedal when you're proven wrong.

Can't you just accept that not being 100% correct is perfectly acceptable? I feel sorry for your teachers in school if you are that pedantic about being correct.
 

Racecarlock

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Oh well, step down off your exulted throne, mighty cage, show me the way. Seriously though, screw you david cage. You basically took the plot of taken and mashed it together with 3 daytime TV drama plots and added minimal interactivity just to have it qualify as a game. I will eat my own crap before I let someone who stuck a 2 minute watch kid do homework thing into a video game tell me what the fuck I should buy.
 

crazyrabbits

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Most of the people in this topic don't see the forest for the trees. If the gaming industry dies, it's going to be because of unrealistic standards, not how many CoD-lite clones are released.

After all, we live in the age of always-online DRM, on-disc content being chopped out of games and sold piecemeal back to gamers, price gouging and through-the-roof sales expectations...and it's only going to get worse before it gets better. That's why tens of thousands of people are flooding Kickstarter and crowdfunding sites to back projects from lesser-known genres - each year, people are putting less and less faith in major developers. Even CoD saw their sales figures take a hit over the last year.

I give it another two years, tops, before the triple-AAA game industry implodes.