DC Universe Online

Feb 13, 2008
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Dexter111 said:
but in the end noone will quit the game because there are only about 1000 costume choices
It's actually far worse than that.

What they've done is cleverly(?) taken a lot of the pieces out and put them in game to find.

The facial hair "choices" are things like Bald, Bald and goatee, Bald - goatee and sideburns; and to find them, you have to scroll through a huge list of parody names. (Afro/beard/mustache is a "Happy Painter")

For a female character, you can have a skintight costume or a skin-tight cleavage costume - with DD cup. Bracelets aren't there, rings aren't there, no neck items, there's only really 6 bodies. (3 male/3 female which are just size-changed)

Dr Fate is built like Superman, who is built like Batman...You can only get the Harley Quin Jester Cap from defeating her...

And, in my opinion, the worst thing they've done - there's no description area. At no point can you give your background, your alter ego or anything else.

Like I say, I'm finding ways around these things, but it is getting really hard to like it. Especially as you can only buy PVP regens with PVP points, that you get by defeating people in PvP - which is way easier if you can regen. A level 14 Batman can tank a level 12 Batman with ease, despite them coming in with the same powers, stats.

There's already a cheat that allows you to raise your critical chance to 100% that's part of the system.

BUT

City of Heroes had huge problems in Beta...I just hope SOE listen - Although, they're not known for taking "advice", and have a tendency to threadlock on a whim.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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Dexter111 said:
Also... you can (and if you want to get all the Skillpoints from the Feats achievable in those missions have to) do all the missions of the other mentors. You just can't get them on your own e.g. you have to find someone that actually has that other mentor, group up and the quest will be shared with you.
Well thats a shame. I hate forced group quests. And I hate the idea of having to group with people to play some simple quests that I could easily do myself.
 

Fearzone

Boyz! Boyz! Boyz!
Dec 3, 2008
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Gotta say, I've long been wondering how MMOs will play out on consoles. So unless it is a complete disaster on the PS3, odds are good that DCUO will be the game where I find out.

I mean, I'm the kind of guy who gets APB just to see if it is really as bad as everybody says. (Which it was.)

On the bright side, there are a whole lotta worse things that can and has been said about MMOs at launch, so is this game is polished enough that these concerns are even relevant, that speaks well of it.
 

RelexCryo

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Oct 21, 2008
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Excellent Article, Shamus. Keep up the good work. :) I like Slow and Steady- I prefer to level up and then dominate my enemies in missions. It's more realistic- in Real Life you don't come back from the dead, you are either skilled enough to win when you show up or you die permanently. The whole "dying over and over again till you memorize everything and solve the puzzle" might make Mario gamers happy, but it tends to hurt immersion.
 

Negatempest

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May 10, 2008
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Shamus Young said:
Irridium said:
Negatempest said:
Irridium said:
Shame, I was hoping that it would be good.

And restricting quests to certain classes? Thats just stupid.
Wait, what? Where did you find this out? To my knowledge I have done quests for Circe, Lex, and Jokers starter quests from one character. But i'm at level 10, but others at higher levels say you still do quests from each.
His blog. Although in retrospect it seems rather silly that I responded to it here...
And to be fair, I had only discovered it when I wrote that post. I'm still not sure how it works. I just know I went to Metropolis and flew around, but nobody would give me quests. Perhaps it was a bug?
Well it is actually kinda weird. You see, I noticed that when you complete you little area of quests to get good with your mentor. You get requests from other mentors to help out. For example you do Jokers beginner quests and soon enough (within a few hours, mostly depends on how sidetracked you can get) you get a call from your mentor saying that other mentors need help. Than the other mentors have you find the person you need to talk to, to start the other mentor quests.
 

Lorechaser

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Aug 28, 2004
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Dexter111 said:
Those aren't the "gamebreakers" that they are made out to be, they might be "nagging" on the side... but in the end noone will quit the game because there are only about 1000 costume choices (and NO character looks exactly the same as another unintentionally) and he can't stand there and gaze at his character posing heroically 3 hours a day or because the mobs "don't give XP"...
I say this without meaning to be a jerk: Have you played any other superhero MMOs?

I'm up to something like 45 months in CoH, and have friends that have been continuously subscribed since launch. There are days when they (and sometimes I) literally do nothing but spend 2-3 hours creating new characters in the character creator on a typically unused server, or run costume contests to see what amazing things other people have done. They won't quit in the first 3 months maybe. But I think you are *tremendously* under-estimating the way a lot of us play superhero MMOs. Read Shamus' CO Let's Play, or CoH articles if you haven't - he talks about spending huge amounts of time in the creator.

Hell, at one point, many of us downloaded a stand alone version of the character creator, and played *that* for months.
 

vxicepickxv

Slayer of Bothan Spies
Sep 28, 2008
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So, you basically said I won't like it in the long run, because it won't feel rewarding in the long run. Got it.
 

geldonyetich

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My experiences with beta is that the game is great fun for a lark, but it didn't have that kind of long term hook that makes a person genuinely interested in paying a subscription for it. I'm sorry to see that the developers have foolhardily pressed on to making it into a subscription-based game anyway. If they had gone F2P with micro-transactions, or even expansion-box supported (Guild Wars style) that would have been a winning model.

Speaking of Champions Online, its F2P begins in 11 days. I'll be there.
 

camazotz

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Jul 23, 2009
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Wow.....my instincts told me it would be like this (compellingsingle-player experience, but otherwise short and shallow by MMO standards) and its disturbing to realize that Champions is actually a deeper play experience. Agh!
 

Escapefromwhatever

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Feb 21, 2009
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Dexter111 said:
1. Combat is not rewarded
This doesn't really matter, as it is as you said a design choice... once you get that you can only level doing quests you should be fine, hitting mobs is still useful for some things, like recharging your "Power Meter" for those Special Attacks...
Not only that, but doing ALL quests is kinda helpful, if not mandatory as Quest XP scales with Level e.g. if you got to 18 and still got some Lvl8/12 quests they give you as much XP as your currently "new ones" and are a lot easier to do.

2. Lack of Costume Pieces
It has one of the largest "selection of costumes" in any game as far as I can tell and certainly surpasses almost all classic "fantasy MMOs" in that aspect... you get only a basic palette (which is large enough as is) during character creation, but you unlock over 350+ new outfits in the game... even entire "armor suits" of known villains and heroes like the Joker or Harley, Queen Bee etc.
It's also great that you can "lock" your costume in place so the look doesn't change from level1 to 30...
I do agree with the "on account basis", thing is though that collecting "Feats" adds to the Skill Points of your character... by collecting all the Feats in the game with one character you will get ~70 or so Skillpoints while the people that don't do them hang around with 20-30, if you want to finish "optimizing" your character you'll hunt em down someday.

The REAL problems I see with the game are two:

1) It doesn't have any in-depth tutorials, tooltips or help anywhere explaining what all the stuff does, so you'll either have to learn by experiencing and trial&error or talking to people or browse the forums... hell there's even very large threads pertaining to that cause the game doesn't even tell you how to use the chat anywhere (if it is working at a certain point that is...) like this one: http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuopc/posts/list.m?topic_id=4988

2) As you said, the game doesn't have enough content, you get a char from 1 to 30 in about 24-30 playing hours (which might depend on the playstyle of any given person..., some people that play it very "casual" might take 1-2 months, others will be done in 2-4 days (in fact a lot seem to be already)... even some SinglePlayer games like Dragon Age or Kings Bounty, Fallout 3 etc. offer 80+ hours of playtime and this is an MMO e.g. it is supposed to engange people long-term so that they continue paying their monthly sub, getting to endgame that quickly and only having raiding for gear and queuing for PvP or farming Feats left to do won't do that job and if they don't do something fast it'll be like a ghosttown a few months from now.

To add to that... even when rolling another faction e.g. Hero or Villain most of the quests are just recycled and you play them from the "viewpoint of the other side" e.g. same quest, same buildings, same collect this or kill that only with slightly different enemies or bosses (if that, some are even exactly the same...).
But if I'm playing DCUO to feel like a superhero, why would I want patrolling the city to be pointless? Why would I want to have to unlock my signature costume?

And if I'm not playing it to feel like a superhero, why not go for one of the cheaper F2P MMOs that either isn't based around superheroes or does the same combat with more options, such as Champions Online?
 

cerebus23

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May 16, 2010
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Dunno about patrolling the city pointless, you are a superhero, hence you are supposed to want to help people, that should be the reward :p. And heck with all the hidden feats there proably is a feat in there somewhere.

My problems with the game are more along the lines of, i played beta on pc, and was one of the people that had massive desync issues when trying to play, that nothing i did stopped it, started in gotham, batman being my mentor and all, but i could not play more than 5 minutes without the game geting more and more unsynched off what i was doing, if i was bounding around the city exploring the town would be a ghost town nothing on the streets or anywhere until i was getting attacked by stuff i could not see at all, only way i got thru many combat missions was to just spam my attack buttons until my health stopped dropping. any timed missions i had to get myself killed or restart the game to hopefully get enough lag free time to pick up item x move it over there before it exploded, sometimes this took constant reboots just to get one mission done.

BUt i went to metropolis and there was no desync just basic lag, most of metro was fine to play in, parts of chinatown were desync but not near as bad as gotham. But other parts of metropolis were fine, while gotham was quite honestly unplayable.

AND what REALLY irked me, was the fact that we had a pretty good forum thread on the soe dcu beta forums about us people having this issue, comparing isps, oss, etc where we had lag, where we did not have lag, and the pattern was is that those of us that had it gotham was horrid, metro was fine except for a few zones of the city. But sony deleted the forum thread, one day it was just gone.

Now there was a patch the day before so i thought hmm maybe they fixed it and closed the thread well it was better but it was not fixed, gotham was not as bad as it used to be but still bad enough to be unplayable unless you had a ton of patience to restart the client, die or just spam skills to try and do anything. metro that same areas had the same problems.

SO after that i just said gg sony, uninstalled the game, and said f it. No more beta testing no more broken quests found, not more desync investigation conducted, just bye hope you get this shit fixed before you ship it else you are going to have a ton of angry people at launch if some of these issues were still in the game.

My other nagging worry while playing is this, there is a good story to dcu the mentor missions and the whole war on brainiac thing has a ton of potential, the cities are well done the music is awesome, the voice acting is solid with mark hamils second to last ever perfomrnace as the joker and other voice acting regulars doing the characters they own, but mmos work on updates, some big updates, fixes, balance, content updates, with the game being on ps3 i was worried about the depth of content we would get via downloads. Was also worried that with hmail retiring as the joker how would they keep some of the voice acting consistent if we got new content down the line.

The cities were well done gotham and metro were great to explore the watchtower was done well, but stil the game world seemed small compared to most other mmos, 2 cities and a watchtower you could have everything explored to some degree in a week or two of playing.

While there was a good bit of good and fun about this mmo based purely on the geek factors of being mixed up with the heroes and villians you know and the random moment if the game like when batman showed up out of nowhere while i was exploring the city to tell me, i got my eye on your, your doing good work, scared the crap out of me. and the random pickups of headlines and tape recordings of events in the city, and places of interest was cool n all. But i could not shake the feeling that the game just had not enough there there and needed another few months of work to iron out the bugs i found and were not fixed last time i logged in.

I do not mind paying for a mmo if there is a a good game there, hell if it is a really good game it saves me money by not buying other games to play for months or years on end. And almost always perfer a p2p mmo over a f2p mmo since many f2p mmos destroy the games balance with the cash shops, and arrange the game so the only way to be efficient in travel xp and loot and loot is to shell out for the cs items.
 

Varewulf

Nosgoth Fanboy
Oct 22, 2009
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I have to say I agree with you Shamus. The character creator has annoyed me from the first moment I realized it was basically just a much more limited version of the one from Champions Online, and had no body sliders... those boobs look absolutely ridiculous. I thought Power Girl was supposed to be an over-exaggerated exception, not the rule? I did find a jacket to cover things up (though there weren't many of those), but it still looks like she has a couple of watermelons stuffed down her shirt. People say they're fine, but they're not for me.

AS it is... I'll probably play for a little while, maybe even the full month (though unlikely) I got with the game, but I'm not planning on renewing my subscription.

Also have to agree with other people that the lack of in-game tutorials is appalling. I still have no clue how the chat system works, and I don't care enough to go on the forums to look up the answer.
 

Varewulf

Nosgoth Fanboy
Oct 22, 2009
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Dexter111 said:
Lorechaser said:
I say this without meaning to be a jerk: Have you played any other superhero MMOs?

I'm up to something like 45 months in CoH, and have friends that have been continuously subscribed since launch. There are days when they (and sometimes I) literally do nothing but spend 2-3 hours creating new characters in the character creator on a typically unused server, or run costume contests to see what amazing things other people have done. They won't quit in the first 3 months maybe. But I think you are *tremendously* under-estimating the way a lot of us play superhero MMOs. Read Shamus' CO Let's Play, or CoH articles if you haven't - he talks about spending huge amounts of time in the creator.

Hell, at one point, many of us downloaded a stand alone version of the character creator, and played *that* for months.
Honestly, it's one of the things you might *think* is important and might even get you playing in the first place (hell I also sometimes spend 1-2 hours to make a char), but once you get playing it really is not all that important... You'll probably play a very good game even looking like a predefined gimp without any choices and might not give some with the "best character creator" another look (there's a reason Champions and soon likely Star Trek Online will become F2P, and it's not that they have such an amazing character creator)
I think you're maybe forgetting that not everyone is the same... people do look for different things in games, you know. So even if it isn't a problem for you, it could very well be for others.
 

AVATAR_RAGE

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May 28, 2009
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dastardly said:
Agreed.

MMOs based on a subscription must be about ownership.

Players must feel they own their characters. They have to be able to design exactly what they want, or the character doesn't feel like on they created. It feels like one they're renting.

The same goes for playstyle. If you can't engage in the activities you like, even if that's just beating up random guys for hours on end, you're not crafting an experience for yourself. You're borrowing an experience from a short list of pre-fab experiences.

When people feel like they are renting or borrowing something, they'll always be acutely aware of the cost. And if there's a cheaper (but equivalent) option available, they'll always take it. With the rise of mainstream free-to-play games, subscription-based games can't get away with this crap anymore.
Looks like we are all on the same page here :p
 

Bobbity

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Mar 17, 2010
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These issues seem pretty reasonable, but considering that it's in the same market as WoW, I don't think anyone was expecting it to make much of an impact.
 

DTWolfwood

Better than Vash!
Oct 20, 2009
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sounds like it is vindictus with pastel colored tights. I played that religiously for a good 3 months but your right you do get burned out quick. i think ill give it a try with its down to $20 and hopefully better by then.

Heres hoping the other Hack'n Slash MMO TERA will reward you for mook grinding.
 

HellspawnCandy

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Oct 29, 2009
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I kinda figured it wouldn't be good. Sony Online Entertainment is a company that really shouldn't be making MMO's. The decisions that they make for expansions/updated engines/etc are always awful(this is coming from someone who played Star Wars Galaxies since launch and a good two years in Planetside, which both equally carry a lot of potential that is just put aside) they just seem to release too many online games.
 

2xDouble

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Mar 15, 2010
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I agree, mostly. I have one question, though: What is wrong with not rewarding combat (at least for a "good" character)?

Heroes, especially super heroes, don't just wander around beating random people up. They do missions, they thwart crimes, they battle supervillains... all of which can flow under questing (or hidden questing, like gaining a "significant" amount of XP for smacking someone whom you saw steal a purse). Ideally, a hero wants to cause as little damage as possible. Being a Hero should be its own reward (heh, get it?).

Villains (or other "evil" characters) should, more or less, ONLY gain XP by beating up random people. Because that's what villains do. They don't solve problems, they don't fetch things for other people... they kill, destroy and wreak havoc. The game should reward villainous characters accordingly.

Heroes do Great things, Villains just Break things.

Maybe I expect too much "RP" in my MMORPG... but if DC Universe didn't implement a system like that, I'd consider it a hugely missed opportunity to carve a unique niche.
 

omicron1

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Mar 26, 2008
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Huh. I wonder if the DC license had something to do with the limitations...

The company (DC) probably had a bit of say in how things were designed, particularly in the game world and the character paths. I'd say it's reasonable to guess that they were responsible for the decision not to let you cross over between questlines, as well as constraining the possible locations and costume choices - either from a misguided attempt to keep the "DC universe" part of the game substantial, or for the purposes of further monetization through the release of additional hero questlines.