Definition of a Race - An argument between friends

[virko]

Hello Escapists, my name is Cam and I'm a somewhat infrequent user of the Escapist website. This is my second forum post to the best of my knowledge.

Anyway.. just an hour or so ago my and my best friend started a somewhat heated conversation over Steam chat that developed into a bit of an argument. This argument revolved around the question, "What is a Race?" In this case we are referring to the term assigned to a group of people, not the running/ driving kind, just so that we are clear.

After each attempting to answer the question, it became clear that we were not going to come to a consensus any time soon. So after things had settled down a little, it occurred to me that this website may be a good way to share our thoughts with the community and see what other people think about the topic.

Just so that you are all aware, Tom [Another confused census taker] and I [more appropiate name.] are both Australians with an Anglo-Saxon heritage. Our arguments are summarised as follows:

Another confused census taker: racial background is determined by your hereditary characteristics [that you share with others]
i probs should add physical [characteristics]
as i reckon its not to do with mind as more body

more appropiate name.: the definition of a race as far as I am concerned is a group of people who share a common background and have therefore developed a set of historical characteristics and traits via time spent together and via specific historical events and conditions

But I can hear you say, "Hold on! Aren't your two points essentially the same?" This is what I feel made the conversation so interesting, in that the main point of contention between us is the role of history and past events in defining a group of people as a race. I believe that it is more the shared historical events which define a race, Tom thinks that while historical elements contribute to shared characteristics, it is more the way in which people live their live in the present which defines a race. Interesting times..

Anyway, here is a link to the convo transcript, unedited and all: http://pastebay.com/39699
Be aware though, its quite a long read, and is not necessary for those who just want to shoot of their opinion strait away. However, if you found our summaries a little brief, feel free to take a quick browse to get to know where we are coming from.

So Escapists, what do you think defines a race? Who, of the two of us, do you agree or disagree with? Let us know!

- Cam

 

[El Poncho]

Well people say that people from a certain country are a race of people and people with the same colour of skin are a race of people so maybe people belong to more than just one race of people.

 

[oliveira8]

People are all one race, and that is the Human Race. Lions, tigers and pet cats are all part of the same race, they felines or Felidae whatever you want to call it. All the same thing even tho they might look and act differently.

 

[lenin_117]

Splitting hairs. Really splitting hairs. Small hairs.

 

[somekindarobot]

Race is a purely arbitrary categorization of people as defined by society, regardless of any real biological or cultural differences. For example, Sub-Saharan Africa is one of the most genetically and culturally diverse regions in the world, but in modern racial vernacular, all of the people who live the are 'black,' pure and simple. What your referring to sounds more like 'ethnicity' to me, which is a little less arbitrary, although it still can be.

 

[crooked_ferret]

People are all one race, and that is the Human Race. Lions, tigers and pet cats are all part of the same race, they felines or Felidae whatever you want to call it.

Honestly I'm going to have to side with the above quote.
On these census it's also worthy to note that some people will consider themselves of a certain race because of how they are raised. An adopted child will often consider himself the same as his adoptive parents and they usually won't try to correct him.

The thing here is when no one can agree the above quote is basically the only reasonable and logical conclusion to come to in the end.

At the risk of diving way into geek I'm actually reminded of an old star trek episode where a race war was being fought over who was what color on what side, and how ridiculous the entire thing seemed.

 

[ghalkhsdkssakgh]

I think we should just let Oxford decide:

race - noun

1) each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.
2) racial origin or distinction: rights based on race.
3) a group of people sharing the same culture, language, etc.; an ethnic group.
4) a group of people or things with a common feature.
5) (Biology) a distinct population within a species; a subspecies.

So that makes it nice and clear *sarcasm*

 

[vamp rocks]

ehhh... best defenition i can come up with is a group of people who seperate themselves... not nescessarily limited to skin color and/or beliefs..

 

[Thurmer]

there really doesn't seem to be a concrete dictionary definition to the term race so its hard to define i spose

personally i dont think culture or beliefs have anything to do with race as that is something you learn are you grow up, it doesnt matter if im christian or muslim thats not going to change my race.

i reckon another confused census taker is right

 

[Inconnu24]

I think you guys both understand 'race' as a biological term describing "genetic variations among isolated populations of a species", but need to consider it's difference from the word 'ethnicity'.

 

[matt_newgrove]

People are all one race, and that is the Human Race. Lions, tigers and pet cats are all part of the same race, they felines or Felidae whatever you want to call it. All the same thing even tho they might look and act differently.

I think that what you are speaking about is species not race, the two tend to get mixed up. I'd say a race is more of a geographical variation of a species which has not been separated from other pupulations of its own species long enough to have evolved into a sub-species.

 

[latenightapplepie]

There was a thread on this a few months back which ended with me quoting the site of the Human Genome Project saying that "DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans".

Link to site: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/minorities.shtml

Link to previous thread: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.115656?page=2#2149153

Therefore, I believe, race can only be defined as socio-historical and cultural concept. And that is difficult. You'd have to consider the fields of anthropology, sociology, history, psychology and medicine to mention a few.

And in the end, the problem of social and political forces will weigh heavily on any kind of conclusion.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Techincally, there is no such thing as race, as we all belong to one race: The Human race.

Socially however, we can see that race does exist, and is very important in our modern world.

Personally I would define race as a group of people united by the same culture and similar ethnic composition.

 

[Superlordbasil]

your definition of shared historical background i would call your culture not your race i.e. i would say I am of British culture and Anglo Saxon race. However the definition you use has been used with the word race so are in no way wrong.

 

[Wadders]

People say that we're all the same, that we are all part of the Human Race, but I really don't agree.

were not all the same. Massively differing cultures and ethnic backgrounds can be found across the world. Don't tell me that Australian Aborigines are the same as say, People of Nordic descent. They look different, they speak different, they do things differently and they have different cultures. Sure they are the same species, but they couldn't be much more different culturally and ethnically. It's stupid to just say "hey man, were all the same really ya know?" and ignore these important differences.

So I would say that race is defined by culture, location, language and ethnicity. If a group of people have all these factors in common, they are a race.

 

[RufusMcLaser]

I think, OP, that you and your friend are both right, as you have drilled down to the same conclusion that many others arrive at: there is hereditary race, which is fluid and difficult to pin down and primarily consists of physical traits; and then there is "social" race which is (at its root) an entirely social construct which need not, necessarily, actually rely on hereditary race- but usually does due to several human tendencies.

 

[oliveira8]

People are all one race, and that is the Human Race. Lions, tigers and pet cats are all part of the same race, they felines or Felidae whatever you want to call it. All the same thing even tho they might look and act differently.

I think that what you are speaking about is species not race, the two tend to get mixed up. I'd say a race is more of a geographical variation of a species which has not been separated from other pupulations of its own species long enough to have evolved into a sub-species.

It is one race. We all humans. And a true definition of species is even worse than race.

In the end the white guy in Finland is exactly the same as the black guy in South Africa. What changes is size, skin colour, beliefs, culture etc. Exactly the same way that my domestic cat is exactly the same as a tiger in India. What changed? Well the tiger is bigger, has a different colour, it will probably think and act differently than my cat, blá blá. Yet biological they the same.

And species is a really dangerous path.

 

[Mookie_Magnus]

Race is a purely cultural phenomena. Let's say that we went back in time and grabbed several developing humans from different parts of the globe, placing them all in one location. Let's say that we waited about 4000 years, and this group of people interbred and traits mixed. Let's say that while there was a fair bit of mixing-and-matching, there was still quite a bit of diversity. Let's say, that while the group had some key physical features intrinsic to that group, the color of skin varied from a light-tan, to a slightly dark brown.

Would you say that those people were of a different race than one-another? Of course not, because they came from the same cultural background for so long.

To the people who say that domestic cats are practically the same as tigers and lions... stop being stupid. They come from separate Genuses of Felidae Family. They're as different as dogs and foxes, or whales and dolphins, or snakes and eels. Slightly similar, but intrinsically different, biologically speaking.