Definition of Sexism

gorfias

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So, in another column someone called me a sexist, and I asked what was wrong with that. I've gotta keep up with the times. According to this 2019 article, they at least think they have a working definition of the term.


Do people really have a problem defining this word?

Here's another article that is all over the place. There is even different kinds of sexism described (hostile/benevolent).

I grew up during 2nd wave feminism. I was told on the regular that there was, "no difference between men and women other than plumbing". That's a quote. I didn't make it up. And if you did think there were differences between men and women, that made you a sexist, which was synonymous with being a bigot, which is a bad thing.

Taken to another logical step, if there was no difference between men and women besides "plumbing", any statistical disparity between men and women that favored men was then thought to be a result of unjust bigotry.

But by around the 1990s, it became too obvious this was nonsense. Example: US 19 year old men are some 6 inches taller than US 19 year old women. Those men aren't being mean to the women. They don't control their height.

We now appear to have an ongoing effort to change the definition of the word as the old one so demonstrably doesn't work.

You still have this push for gender "equality". I'm not sure how that works if you are talking about two things that are different. Is there even a good faith argument being put forward? The MRA position is that today's women's movements, at least in the 1st world, are simply lobbyists trying to gain advantage for their constituency.

Your thoughts?
 

gorfias

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Ah, sexism threads, that takes me back. Remember when we used to get one of these a week? Anybody want to make a thread about how they are such a 'Nice Guy' but the girls only want to date jerks next?
Appears we still need threads like this as, they're still out there working hard to change this definition.
And yes, girls like dating jerks for reasons of evolutionary biology. A jerk will not be solicitous to women as a beta male. This creates the illusion that the male is of a higher social status than the woman, making him desirable to that particular woman. There are many studies out there (particularly using stats they get from dating apps) to support this idea. What to do about it? Don't be a beta orbiter. Be the best version of you that you can be. These things appear to work out. Women get sick of jerks and enough of them get serious about things that matter.

And in the future, if you don't have something material to contribute to a thread? The verbal equivalence of "shut up, you explained" need not be posted.
 

McElroy

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Your first link seems to have it covered. For the rest, the feminism you describe is thankfully all but absent in my circles (which aren't too large, I must admit). Moreover, I have a low opinion of and low hopes for feminism in general.

Evolutionary psychology seems to have accidentally found a way to bring some of its findings to the public sphere through data from online dating but the way it then confirms people's exacerbated ideas seems bad. Fast and reliable internet connections have enabled the use of sexual characteristics for broader gains for lots and lots of people. But in that market women are valued absurdly higher. Working as intended, I guess. I foresee that in 10 years it will be the exception to refrain from using social media to trade ones sexual desirability for likes, subscriptions, tips etc.
 
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gorfias

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Your first link seems to have it covered. For the rest, the feminism you describe is thankfully all but absent in my circles (which aren't too large, I must admit). Moreover, I have a low opinion of and low hopes for feminism in general.

Evolutionary psychology seems to have accidentally found a way to bring some of its findings to the public sphere through data from online dating but the way it then confirms people's exacerbated ideas seems bad. Fast and reliable internet connections have enabled the use of sexual characteristics for broader gains for lots and lots of people. But in that market women are valued absurdly higher. Working as intended, I guess. I foresee that in 10 years it will be the exception to refrain from using social media to trade ones sexual desirability for likes, subscriptions, tips etc.
I cannot write that I'm too jazzed about this definition:

“Any act, gesture, visual representation, spoken or written words, practice, or behaviour based upon the idea that a person or a group of persons is inferior because of their sex, which occurs in the public or private sphere, whether online or offline.”

The recommendation also stressed that sexism is a manifestation of “historically unequal power relations” between men and women — which leads to discrimination and prevents the full advancement of women in society.

Does it mean noting that US women are or average shorter than US men now somehow illegal? Are noting these differences illegal? Socially forbidden? I'm not sure but this seems extremely over broad.

Further, it states that it is addressing "historically unequal power relations” between men and women". That a woman's grandfather may have abused my grandmother should not give her rights against me. Where are we today? In the 1st world, I'd argue women have cushier, more privileged, pampered, longer lives than men. For instance, in 2015, California adopted a law requiring bigotry against men when forming corporate boards there.

I just see a ton of room for abuse in even this definition.
 

Chimpzy

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Does it mean noting that US women are or average shorter than US men now somehow illegal? Are noting these differences illegal? Socially forbidden? I'm not sure but this seems extremely over broad.
No, not illegal, but if you note those differences between the sexes because you believe it makes one or the other inferior, it does make you sexist under that definition.
 

McElroy

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Does it mean noting that US women are or average shorter than US men now somehow illegal? Are noting these differences illegal? Socially forbidden? I'm not sure but this seems extremely over broad.
You're not sure? If anyone finds a link between that definition of sexism and height difference between sexes -- as you already said people don't choose how tall they are -- they are illiterate or delusional.

"the idea that a person or a group of persons is inferior because of their sex" seems fine as far as definitions go. I agree that it gets less clear with these "historically unequal power relations". Advanced societies are so different from ancient/primitive ones that sexism which was common sense isn't anymore. The world is too big for a narrow definition, I think, but it's also clear that it has swung the other way in some places and what we call equality nowadays is actually sexism against men and special treatment for women. Personally it makes me a little bit reactionary. I grew up thinking sexism was plain stupid and that there was no way my generation (late millennial) would perpetuate it. Funny in hindsight.
 
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gorfias

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90 minute video! Lot to unpack there. I don't know where the "women hate everybody" came from. I know Milo has said it. A concern is that they actually show an "in group" bias. I've experienced this myself as a woman voted to hire an incompetent woman in IT over two very qualified men. The caller goes on to speak of men not as likely to engage in strong friendships less they be called "gay" in a pejorative way: even by the woke. I thought men find it very easy to form friendships with other men. The term, "bromance" is a thing. I'll listen some more ASAP. Thanks, agree or disagree with what I'm hearing, it's still interesting.

You're not sure? If anyone finds a link between that definition of sexism and height difference between sexes -- as you already said people don't choose how tall they are -- they are illiterate or delusional.
I think @Chimpzy nails this. I first came across this particular matter watching a Feminist critic saying she thought it wrong to try to pretend things like noting height differences is bigotry. A couple of what I assume to be feminists stood and stormed out of the conference.
 
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Dreiko

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Sexism is doing something while being a man, and also not doing something while being a man in some cases, so you must just get used to it and not worry about being called it because it has lost all meaning and is just a political buzzword now. People are just trying to usurp power when they use such words. If you let them roll off your back you get your power back.
 
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stroopwafel

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Appears we still need threads like this as, they're still out there working hard to change this definition.
And yes, girls like dating jerks for reasons of evolutionary biology. A jerk will not be solicitous to women as a beta male. This creates the illusion that the male is of a higher social status than the woman, making him desirable to that particular woman. There are many studies out there (particularly using stats they get from dating apps) to support this idea. What to do about it? Don't be a beta orbiter. Be the best version of you that you can be. These things appear to work out. Women get sick of jerks and enough of them get serious about things that matter.

And in the future, if you don't have something material to contribute to a thread? The verbal equivalence of "shut up, you explained" need not be posted.
I guess a lot of it comes from the fact our instincts evolved in a way that aren't necessarily conducive to the expectations of modern society. But our subconscious still reacts to it which I think is where the ''girls only like jerks'' thing comes from as it's a reaction to someone who isn't ashamed of their needs and desires. Then again I also think that the person in question needs to be of high desirability. It makes the difference between a ''bad boy'' and a creeper. The opposite ofcourse is simps who put women on a pedestal and then act aggressive on the internet when they don't get their 'reward' ie the typical 'nice guy'.

In general men desire women much more than women desire men and as a result men are willing to do much more to try and impress with money and status so they can attract more women(ie the pickier sex). Sex drive and status seeking are closely linked to testosterone of which men have eight times more so that probably explains it. Nature arranged it in a way that the gender who desires sex the most is at the mercy of the gender who desires it less so they neither have the luxury of choice or the low libido to take it or leave it. Can't say nature doesn't have a cruel sense of humor. But I think this is what often causes men to do stupid things. Mostly not out of ill intent but because desires and hormones can affect poor decision making. The society have also often used man's nature against himself, when he was sent to die in wars with an appeal to 'self-sacrifice for the greater good' for example.

But yeah, I think sexism exists as a result of male status seeking behaviors that the society at large have greatly benefited from but we are now at a moment in our economic development(atleast in western societies) where society no longer turns a blind eye to these behaviors so status seeking itself is heavily discouraged through derogatory language('white male privilege', 'male toxicity' 'sexual entitlement' etc). As a result I think many men feel discouraged from partaking in the society as status seeking is such a fundamental part of their instinctive drive that propels them forward in life. This discouragement by the society and lack of role models probably also lead younger men into the arms of people like Jordan Peterson(himself not a bad guy) or fringe internet phenomena like red pill, men's rights etc.

Many women do encounter sexism(or worse, harassment) and for them the problem is very real but at the same time many men are having somewhat of an identity crisis. Eventually men and women are speaking a different language considering their experiences and biological urges lie far apart. Only with conscious effort can you really understand another but ofcourse in the modern day everyone feels the victim and everyone is also easily offended.
 
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SilentPony

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I mean I grew up in the 90s and we were told any form of "ism" or "phobia" was bad. Like you're not supposed to treat others worse because they're different, you're not supposed to look down on other gender, colors, races, religions, ethnic and national backgrounds.
A straight white Christian man in rural Oregon has just as much right to live and be happy as a gay trans atheist Ethiopian woman.
Like I always thought the whole acceptance movement and fighting against prejudice was that both of those people have equally valid existences and life choices, and so long as they're not hurting anyone, live and let live.
 
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gorfias

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In general men desire women much more than women desire men and as a result men are willing to do much more to try and impress with money and status so they can attract more women(ie the pickier sex).
I've read, the "coy" sex. They have "last chance to abandon." So, before they say yes, the guy better be right. To help illustrate, look to an opposite: male sea horses gestate the babies. They have last chance to abandon. So, they're the coy ones. Still, when a woman does come across a male they do want? They can be un-cool. Example: around 1:08

 

Avnger

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Ah, sexism threads, that takes me back. Remember when we used to get one of these a week? Anybody want to make a thread about how they are such a 'Nice Guy' but the girls only want to date jerks next?
Do you think we'll see the whole "fake gamer girl" craze make a comeback too?
 

SilentPony

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Do you think we'll see the whole "fake gamer girl" craze make a comeback too?
We're sorta getting a Monkey's Paw of that now with streamers who want to find a way to prey on underage boys for donations and discovering a technicality that microkinis are allowed on Twitch if you're in a hot tub finally admitting they don't have to pretend to like games to get guys to give them money.
 
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Satinavian

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I just see a ton of room for abuse in even this definition.
It is a political definition left deliberately vague so that the EU countries can fill it with meaning however they desire, at least in certain bounds. It is not useful and was never meant to prescribe how people should think about sexism.


No, not illegal, but if you note those differences between the sexes because you believe it makes one or the other inferior, it does make you sexist under that definition.
While i generally don't agree with gorfias, i also have seen people argue that all differences in height and strength between the averages of men and women are only due to sexism because boys get more/better food and more physical training. And that, as long as those differences do exist, they are prove that sexism is still basically everywhere.
Now, that is obviously rubbish and an extremely rare standpoint even among feminists. Something worth pointing and laughing, not something to be actually concerned about. But it is also not just a strawman. Every group has its idiots.
 
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Schadrach

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We're sorta getting a Monkey's Paw of that now with streamers wants to find a way to prey on underage boys for donations and discovering a technicality that microkinis are allowed on Twitch if you're in a hot tub finally admitting they don't have to pretend to like games to get guys to give them money.
To be fair, those sorts of Twitch streamers haven't had to pretend to like games for a long time, ever since they got rid of the requirement that you be doing game streaming and added a "Just Chatting" category. It's the most popular category, typically sitting at twice as many viewers as mainstays like Minecraft and Fortnite. Usually a good 10-20% over whatever is extra popular at the moment.
 
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Buyetyen

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And yes, girls like dating jerks for reasons of evolutionary biology. A jerk will not be solicitous to women as a beta male. This creates the illusion that the male is of a higher social status than the woman, making him desirable to that particular woman. There are many studies out there (particularly using stats they get from dating apps) to support this idea. What to do about it? Don't be a beta orbiter. Be the best version of you that you can be. These things appear to work out. Women get sick of jerks and enough of them get serious about things that matter.
What you're referring to is evolutionary psychology, which is pseudo-science. It starts with a conclusion and then looks for evidence supporting it, which is the opposite of the scientific method. The actual psychology of sex, dating and relationships is far more complicated.

Also, helpful contribution, alpha and beta males is bad science. The original studies this comes from were based on wolves in captivity suffering the canine equivalent of PTSD. So anyone who asserts that they are an alpha male is inadvertently, though truthfully, admitting that they are too damaged to function on their own in society and think aggression solves their problems rather than creating them.

Do you think we'll see the whole "fake gamer girl" craze make a comeback too?
I have a bad feeling that will be a perennial thing.
 

SilentPony

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To be fair, those sorts of Twitch streamers haven't had to pretend to like games for a long time, ever since they got rid of the requirement that you be doing game streaming and added a "Just Chatting" category. It's the most popular category, typically sitting at twice as many viewers as mainstays like Minecraft and Fortnite. Usually a good 10-20% over whatever is extra popular at the moment.
God Twitch is awful isn't it? I feel so sorry for the actual female gamers who just want to wear a hoodie and stream RE8, without little boys offering them $5 to bounce up and down and write their names on her inner thigh.
Edit: Thirsty adult men and women offer for that too, but I find that way less predatory than the underage children that make up the majority of the audience in a titty stream.
 
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