Desensitized to Pandering: A Response to the Response of my Response to recent Kill La Kill concepts

MrHide-Patten

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My initial response to the prior thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.828068-Sexy-Power-Armor-am-I-juvenile-for-liking-it-a-response-to-recent-Kill-La-Kill-concepts] in gif form:


Didn't't really want to post this until the last thread lost its steam, even if it turned into what constitutes as armour (it did not, obviously as I have been thoroughly told, get your definitions right with the Escapist grew, lesson learned) and that whilst a majority of the escapist wanted to carve out their eyes upon looking at the supplied example, I was entitled to like it. Even if I am now some kind of fusion between Skeletor and Chris Brown to the Escapist community.

BUT as an artist (sorta), I have my preferences, and my favourite thing to draw is women. Some people like drawing Pokemon, some like drawing Ponies, and some like drawing the previously mentioned in creepy fan-art and making plushies with incriminating holes. When you've drawn the female body a lot, it loses its novelty and mystery, it's still one of the most engaging and challenging things to draw, but you're not giggling like a child when you start drawing nude models.

So when I happen upon designs such as these:

 



Kill la Kill's Magic Girl "Mecha" Costume wha-cha-ma-call-it thingy that the show uses as a gag. And the thread wasn't about whether or not I thought it was sensible as armour (I didn't say it was). Turns out it's built for speed (aside from the heels) she hasn't got much on to weigh her down.

 



Anarchy Reigns: Mathilda "Totally Bitchin' Jacket" McPointy-nip.

 



Triage X: Manga series drawn by Shoji Sato, puts an insane amount of detail into the designs, but he's the artist behind Highschool of the Dead. A comedy with zombies, at least I assume it's a comedy...

I find that I can look past the sexualized nature of female character designs, and get to appreciate the overall style and execution. Functionality, practicality, and intent be damned however, as designs that I like never make sense realistically, but that's part of the allure of Fantasy. The only thing realistic I care about is character, emotion and context, if I want realism I'll go outside.

But then these sorts of designs don't fly for a lot of women (and men) and expecting them to would be silly of me. When I'm designing for personal shits and giggles, I'm only ever thinking about what I like, as opposed to a more professional setting where my thoughts are more audience motivated. In defiance to what is assumed to be cynically motivated; "oh he only draws that stuff for attention", no, I draw that stuff because I like that stuff. So when I 'dial it down', I'm actually being more cynical; "better alter this or a lot of people will throw their shit at me".
I believe it is this line f thinking that motivates publishers to put female characters on the back of the box. Whilst a lot of outcry does put a dampener on the overtly sexualised female character, the affects seems to spill over onto realistic female characters (even Ellie from the Last of Us had sexist claims lobbed at the developers).

Broad generalization incoming: Part of the problem is eastern character designers cannot seem to make a female character that isn't sexualized (by virtue of lack of fucks given, and the potential to sell merchandise to 'otaku's'), western media doesn't want to use them at all due to perceived negative market impact (Publisher: "Put da ***** on da back yo, or my hommies won't buy dat shit").

So could my uncommon position as an artist (sorta) to which I have drawn the female form numerously potentially leave me with an appreciation for Female characters without my libido completely dominating my tastes, have I desensitized myself so to speak?

Also can good writing, providing a sense of context, "save" a character that is designed with some sex appeal in mind? Bayonetta for example, the character is incredibly over the top, and owns her sexuality in a very domineering manner.
For Kill la Kill, for what I have been told the costume is a bit of the shows joke. The clothes are sentient I can figure and that the form that takes on is not of her particular desires, but if you want the super powers you have to have the 'stripperiffic' outfit. Why doesn't it transform into something more 'practical'? Designer wanted to have laugh perhaps, or simply because of reasons listed above.

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TL;DR: By drawing women do I get to appreciate female characters more because I'm desensitized to the sexuality to some degree?And can good writing and clever contextualising validate a sexually inclined design?

Why do I care: Creating in future should I design for the evil purposes of satisfying my own (warped) tastes, or create for the many even if my heart wouldn't be fully into it, but I get the gratification of mass acceptance later?
 

Chemical Alia

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MrHide-Patten said:
TL;DR: By drawing women do I get to appreciate female characters more because I'm desensitized to the sexuality to some degree?And can good writing and clever contextualising validate a sexually inclined design?

Why do I care: Creating in future should I design for the evil purposes of satisfying my own (warped) tastes, or create for the many even if my heart wouldn't be fully into it, but I get the gratification of mass acceptance later?
Dude, I've drawn more naked strangers than I care to recall, I basically have a BFA in drawing naked strangers. But I find the drawings you provided to be in questionable taste from a fashion police standpoint and chuckle at them quietly. Also nudity does not necessarily imply sexuality. Pose, actions, intent, and how these things come across to other people matter.

As for context/writing, I dunno. Slave Leia?

If you like sexy fetish outfits on anime girls, that's wonderful, but at least own up to it for what it is. But by all means, draw what makes you happy or your internet-commissioned clients happy. There's a big market for that.
 

TheIceQueen

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Just do what you want.

Sounds like you wouldn't be too happy drawing for the masses compared to drawing for yourself and you don't exactly want to burn yourself out. If you do what you want and you do it well, you can carve yourself a nice slice of a pie. Places like deviantArt are great for that. Draw for yourself, do it well, and publicize your art well enough, and you'll have your -own- masses.

Honestly, though, I don't really think that your examples are that sexual.
 

Hoplon

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Mar 31, 2010
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MrHide-Patten said:
TL;DR: By drawing women do I get to appreciate female characters more because I'm desensitized to the sexuality to some degree? And can good writing and clever contextualising validate a sexually inclined design?

Why do I care: Creating in future should I design for the evil purposes of satisfying my own (warped) tastes, or create for the many even if my heart wouldn't be fully into it, but I get the gratification of mass acceptance later?
Honestly in games and stuff I just feel irritated that some one would think that it would positively influence my opinion of a product.

If that's what you like and what people have asked you for, do it, it's not wrong.
 

Jaythulhu

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Uhm, one thing I've not seen you mention yet, OP: Maturity.

I'd have thought that not giggling, dribbling or going generally ga-ga over the sight of a slightly naked person was just a sign of a bit maturity, that you were on your way to being an actual grown-up adult.
 

EternallyBored

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Jun 17, 2013
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Kind of leading the question there, this combined with your last thread makes me think you might have sort of a persecution complex. For someone who constantly asserts what he likes you come off as kind of desperate for other peoples approval and your being a bit passive aggressive against the people that criticize you with these questions that pretty much set up the answer your looking for in advance.

In the end, what you enjoy creating and consuming is up to you, people might try to make you feel bad for it, but your response to that criticism is entirely under your control. You like drawing women in skimpy or exaggeratedly sexualized clothing, some people don't like that. If your just drawing for fun and posting it online then there's really no consequence to their complaining, you draw or make whatever you want to, plenty of fan artists get crap from others for drawing ponies or whatever floats their boat.

On the flipside, if your making money on your art, then congratulations welcome to the artist's eternal dilemma, it doesn't just apply to women in skimpy clothing. You have to weigh how much you want to draw what you want, against how much people are willing to pay you to draw stuff you may not necessarily be interested in. This doesn't just apply to what fans say, your bosses and editors are going to change your work a lot more than fans complaining about skimpy armor.

Also, no, people complaining about sexualized females is not what got ellie almost taken off the box art, things have more than one cause, and in this case it's more closely tied to market demographics and putting kids or non-sexualized females on a front cover is seen as a potentially poor move in advertising by marketing analysts. Your also wrong about the backlash against The Last of Us, the only feminist complaint that came out of that was one review that mentioned that Joel was yet another white male protagonist, and why shouldn't another female or Ellie herself be the protagonist. It had nothing to do with sexualized females, and certainly had nothing to do with why the publisher didn't want her on the box.

As for your TL;DR, well yes and no actually. Your ability to ignore sexualization can indeed help you look at a female characters core traits in a fashion that someone instantly turned off by the sexualization will miss. On the other hand, your preference for sexualization to such an extreme degree can also blind you to character flaws that are hidden behind flimsy excuses and titillation. So it can both hurt and help you, it's likely going to depend on the situation.

The next part of your question is a definite yes, Bayonetta tends to not get nearly as much flak as say, Ahley from Mass Effect 3, because Bayonetta is justified within her universe and is characterized well enough that her sex appeal is both an interesting part of her character, and not her only defining trait. Ashley, on the other hand, went from wearing thick combat armor and looking like a soldier in the first game, to fighting in a skintight suit with lip implants and long wavy hair by the third game.

Your "why do I care" is pretty much completely up to you, which do you want more? fan approval, or your personal enjoyment. If you do make money off your work, then you have to ask yourself if maximizing your personal enjoyment is worth potentially making less money.

A final bit of advice though, most artists will tell you at some point that stepping out of your comfort zone is a good way to improve your skill in art. If you sacrifice what other people suggest or want, in order to only ever draw what you want, you may find you skill stagnating under the inability to branch out or try something new.
 

Hagi

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As far as context goes I'd say it's the other way around.

If something is purely about explosions and boobs with no aspirations to anything like a plot then I don't really mind when Busty McBoobs shows up wearing three ribbons and a hairpin, she fits right in.

However if something is trying to have an actual plot and some actual meaning then I don't think Busty McBoobs has any place in that, even if that plot is about lust or sex. And trying to cram her in just devalues the entire work.

For me at least it's much more about keeping a consistent tone across a work. If you've chosen a ridiculous tone that's cool, feel free to add in a character with ridiculous proportions and ridiculous clothes. If you've chosen another tone though then don't try to cram that stuff in for the sake of fan-service.
 

Playful Pony

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Sep 11, 2012
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MrHide-Patten said:
Why do I care: Creating in future should I design for the evil purposes of satisfying my own (warped) tastes, or create for the many even if my heart wouldn't be fully into it, but I get the gratification of mass acceptance later?
Uhw... First of all, your being way too hard on yourself for liking women in revealing clothing... Who the hell doesn't?! Those strange boys and girls that like men instead I suppose... I draw too, and I love to draw cute and sexy, cause I like women! I'm even twisted and self-absorbed enough to be able to look in the mirror and find myself atractive, thats a big part of why I enjoy cosplaying so much. I see no problem in you liking the things you like, and people are into a lot weirder things than you or I... What's the point of drawing if not to create art you like and enjoy? You like what you like, just don't cause harm to others and I see no problem with you doing your thing.

I won't say that I find those outfits sexy, atractive or even aestethically pleasing though, because to me they are not! I especially think that the first one is pretty silly looking, and the third one too. Middle one is alright I guess... Not my kinda thing really X3. The problems I would have with revealing and sexified clothing is when it feels out of place when it shows up. It looks incredibly silly to have a male and female warrior standing besides eachother, the male in full shining armor and the female in a chainmale/plate bikini although they are both the same class and wearing the same equipment..

I should also mention that I'm a complete anime newb... I barely watch any of it, and have only enjoyed a small portion of the stuff I have seen.
 

Psychobabble

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If history is anything to go by it seems the more puritanical the society the more fixated people become on the nude form. So yeah the more people are subjected to views of the human anatomy the less likely they are to act like blushing virgins at the sight of a well turned ankle.
 

Zhukov

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MrHide-Patten said:
TL;DR: By drawing women do I get to appreciate female characters more because I'm desensitized to the sexuality to some degree?
If you can look at those images and see straight past the fact that they are designed primarily as fetish dolls then yeah, you are desensitized.

And can good writing and clever contextualising validate a sexually inclined design?
Noooyeeaahhn... yes and no. If you write a great character and then have her go into battle in a bikini then you have a great character... who goes into battle in a bikini. Which is a character that is less that it could be. Jack from Mass Effect [http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/063/a/4/jack___subject_zero_by_madspike-d4rnemm.png] comes to mind. She's presented as a serious character, but runs around wearing three thin leather straps where most people would have a shirt. This creates a clash and causes me to question why the character designer didn't just give her a tank top, which would have fit her personality and background and still let her show off her tattoos.

Bayonetta works because she isn't a grounded character. She fights angels with magic and high hell guns and while riding a jet fighter. The ridiculousness of her prehensile hair sex costume isn't any greater than the world that surrounds it, so it fits. Besides, it's so up front about it that even I can't hate it.

It's when you have serious characters doing serious things and then the token woman shows up dressed in a skimpy nurse outfit that my eyes are liable to roll clean out of their sockets.

It's the difference between a porno and that scene in Star Trek: Into Darkness where the blonde chick starts posing in her underwear just because. One knows exactly what it is, the other is throwing in some tits for lack of any better ideas.

Why do I care: Creating in future should I design for the evil purposes of satisfying my own (warped) tastes, or create for the many even if my heart wouldn't be fully into it, but I get the gratification of mass acceptance later?
Surely that's up to you. Which do you value more?

Besides, I doubt you'll have much trouble finding an audience for scantily clad fetish dolls.

It seemed to me that the overriding response from your last thread (or at least one overriding response) was that you're free to like (and presumably draw) whatever you want.

When I draw characters (which I occasionally do... badly, because damn anatomy is more complicated than it looks) I prefer them to be a bit more grounded. I just like a character to look like something that could conceivably exist in the world. I think it is possible to still mix visual characterization with grounded aesthetics. You prefer your anime chicks. Doesn't mean we have to hate each other. My housemate watches cricket while I watch replays of MOBA tournaments. We manage to not think any less of each other because of it.

PS. Umm... this post turned out a bit rambly. Hopefully I managed to convey my point somewhere in that mess.
 

trollnystan

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The character design should suit the character and/or situation basically. Zhukov above me mentions Jack from Mass Effect 2 as a design he thinks is flawed; I personally thinks it fits her rather well. To me Jack comes off as someone with zero fucks to give, and if the age rating of the game would have allowed it I think she'd have actually gone into battle completely topless just to fuck with people's heads. She still manages to store a shield somewhere on her person after all, which is what soaks up most of the damage. She's still effing crazy to do it but, well, she's JACK.

Samara's design from the same game on the other hand... But I've ranted about that in previous threads, I can't be arsed now.

I know absolutely nothing about the story from where you got the design you posted in your previous thread. But I'd look at the personality of the girl wearing it, the world in which she operates, etc, before giving a personal verdict on it. At first glance however it looks like it's made purely for titillation (heh, I said "tit"...). It doesn't look like satire or parody or any of the things I faintly recall people (you?) mentioning (in the previous thread) the show it's from was. However again, I know nothing about the show beyond what Wikipedia tells me.

If it's a show about monsters and magic and fan service, that design seems to fit the bill. And people are perfectly free to like shows with fan service! They're just not for me, as I personally feel that often it reduces the characters to caricatures instead of people, I get drawn out of the story, and as a woman I feel marginalised. Again, to use Mass Effect 2, there's the camera resting on Miranda's ass during a conversation. There was no reason for it to be focused there, unless as a way of saying, "She talking about how she hates only being seen as a sex object and now you're looking at her as a sex object. SHAME ON YOU!" Which doesn't work as I DIDN'T PUT THE FUCKING CAMERA THERE. When it focused on her ass all I felt was resignation and it pulled me out of the story. However, when they do the same thing with Jacob's abs - although that takes place in a romance scene IIRC and thus an appropriate place for fan service IMHO - I will admit to admiring dem abs for a minute before bursting into giggles over "But the priiiize" again.

I'm rambling, sorry.

Anyway. No, I don't think you're desensitized from the sexuality of it all as you apparently still enjoy more sexualised designs over more practical and/or better characterised designs. Perhaps you simply enjoy the aesthetics of the human female body, but then drawing/looking at completely nude women would be a better way to appreciate that IMHO than dressing them up in thongs and metal brassieres. Yes, good writing and characterization can validate a sexy/sexualised character design. No, you should draw what you and your clients want, not what you think society thinks you should draw. Unless of course mass acceptance is what you're gunning for, then you will have to make sacrifices.
 

Relish in Chaos

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I actually haven't played Mass Effect, nor do I know that much about it, but that "Jack" character doesn't seem all that jarringly sexualised to me. Maybe it's because I don't personally find her attractive, but she's a bald woman who doesn't appear to be entirely human, with all that stuff over her body (and she seems to be wearing trousers, at least).

But whatever. Like what you like. Sex sells.
 

Shia-Neko-Chan

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trollnystan said:
Anyway. No, I don't think you're desensitized from the sexuality of it all as you apparently still enjoy more sexualised designs over more practical and/or better characterised designs. Perhaps you simply enjoy the aesthetics of the human female body, but then drawing/looking at completely nude women would be a better way to appreciate that IMHO than dressing them up in thongs and metal brassieres. Yes, good writing and characterization can validate a sexy/sexualised character design. No, you should draw what you and your clients want, not what you think society thinks you should draw. Unless of course mass acceptance is what you're gunning for, then you will have to make sacrifices.
I just wish everyone understood this instead of trying to actively shame artists whenever they make designs like these (this mainly happens in nerd culture and the video game industry). It's pretty disheartening when they do that. :/

This is the best thread on this topic in a long while, though. Lots of people willing to accept that people like to enjoy and draw different things. :)
 

Zhukov

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Slight derailment, ho!

EternallyBored said:
Ashley, on the other hand, went from wearing thick combat armor and looking like a soldier in the first game, to fighting in a skintight suit with lip implants and long wavy hair by the third game.
I feel compelled to point out that while Ashley's ME3 outfit is a bit sexed up, it isn't that bad. Also, she doesn't fight in it. She puts on proper armour when you take her on combat missions, also a helmet if you have them turned on.

I do think the old bun hairdo was better though, both in appearance and as visual characterization.

Relish in Chaos said:
I actually haven't played Mass Effect, nor do I know that much about it, but that "Jack" character doesn't seem all that jarringly sexualised to me. Maybe it's because I don't personally find her attractive, but she's a bald woman who doesn't appear to be entirely human, with all that stuff over her body (and she seems to be wearing trousers, at least).
She's more-or-less regular human. She's telekinetic, but that's not hugely uncommon in the setting. The stuff on her is just tattoos.

No, she isn't conventionally sexy. But I for one kinda have a bit of a thing for chicks with shaved heads, so, yeah...

trollnystan said:
The character design should suit the character and/or situation basically. Zhukov above me mentions Jack from Mass Effect 2 as a design he thinks is flawed; I personally thinks it fits her rather well. To me Jack comes off as someone with zero fucks to give, and if the age rating of the game would have allowed it I think she'd have actually gone into battle completely topless just to fuck with people's heads. She still manages to store a shield somewhere on her person after all, which is what soaks up most of the damage. She's still effing crazy to do it but, well, she's JACK.
I could almost accept that. Almost. Nakedness or semi nakedness can effectively communicate savagery or primal characteristics. But I just can't get past the cupless bra made of belts. It's just so silly. I'd like to give the character designers the benefit of the doubt, but given that the same game had Samara and Miranda, I'm not inclined to do so.

Granted, Samara is a better example. But I've used her like a dozen times now, so I thought I'd mix it up a bit.
 

trollnystan

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Shia-Neko-Chan said:
I just wish everyone understood this instead of trying to actively shame artists whenever they make designs like these (this mainly happens in nerd culture and the video game industry). It's pretty disheartening when they do that. :/

This is the best thread on this topic in a long while, though. Lots of people willing to accept that people like to enjoy and draw different things. :)
Sorry, afraid you're giving me too much credit here =( If I see character design that I consider ridiculous I will point and laugh-- or bury my face in my hands and groan. I'll defend a person's right to draw it, but if you try to plunk a bikini warrior babe or the like into a serious story without some justification for why she, as a warrior, is wearing a bikini (or the like), I will question the artist on their design choices.

This is why I can't play most modern JRPGs.


Zhukov said:
Slight derailment, ho!

SNIP

I could almost accept that. Almost. Nakedness or semi nakedness can effectively communicate savagery or primal characteristics. But I just can't get past the cupless bra made of belts. It's just so silly. I'd like to give the character designers the benefit of the doubt, but given that the same game had Samara and Miranda, I'm not inclined to do so.

Granted, Samara is a better example. But I've used her like a dozen times now, so I thought I'd mix it up a bit.
I've always sort of assumed that the belt-bra was pretty much the character designer's way of saying, "I wanted her topless but since I'm not allowed... MINIMUM COVERAGE! SILLY SETTING: HIGH!"

All I can think about when she's wearing them is OUCH. All that chafing... But as a look it fits her character much much better than it does Kiera Knightly as Guinevere in the film King Arthur. That one is just... WUT.
 

Dr. Cakey

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Futurehero said:
MrHide-Patten said:
MrHide-Pattern's post
(A bit off topic)
Dude, I hope you don't get upset at me asking you this, but what is it with your way of drawing eyes?
I know that's probably your style, and you've gotten used to it, but it looks incredibly distracting.
Those huge, elongated eyes, look better on , I dunno, a pokemon, or an alien, but not on anything human.
Even when you take into account stylization and anime influences , it still comes off creepy looking.
The way they look implies that all you characters have this permanent "sultry" look , but if they'd ever open their eyes fully they'd wouldn't fit on their faces.
Otherwise, your art is pretty cool . It's cool that the women you do draw don't look like part of the Anime Anorexia brigade, but dem eyes.....
Those aren't his.

-

MrHide-Patten said:
Didn't't really want to post this until the last thread lost its steam, even if it turned into what constitutes as armour (it did not, obviously as I have been thoroughly told, get your definitions right with the Escapist grew, lesson learned) and that whilst a majority of the escapist wanted to carve out their eyes upon looking at the supplied example, I was entitled to like it. Even if I am now some kind of fusion between Skeletor and Chris Brown to the Escapist community.
Nah, not Skeletor. He was a good guy in the Christmas episode. You're more like Hannibal Lechter.

MrHide-Patten said:
Kill la Kill's Magic Girl "Mecha" Costume wha-cha-ma-call-it thingy that the show uses as a gag. And the thread wasn't about whether or not I thought it was sensible as armour (I didn't say it was). Turns out it's built for speed (aside from the heels) she hasn't got much on to weigh her down.
Mm, mm, built for speed. Yeah, that makes sensahahahahahaha. Ha.

Don't worry. I'm sooooo hyped for Kill la Kill. Of course if it turns it sucks I'm gonna be pissed.

MrHide-Patten said:
I find that I can look past the sexualized nature of female character designs, and get to appreciate the overall style and execution. Functionality, practicality, and intent be damned however, as designs that I like never make sense realistically, but that's part of the allure of Fantasy. The only thing realistic I care about is character, emotion and context, if I want realism I'll go outside.
I'm with you in your general sentiments, I just diverge from you in your personal tastes. I prefer characters that are a touch overdesigned (but not in that Tetsuya Nomura, Final Fantasy way...), I love crazy costumes from magical girl outfits to school uniforms to technicolor power armor to slick tuxedos to fetish gear. But I like very low-key sexualization.

Oh, style and execution. Yeah, I can buy that. There are good designs and bad designs, and...those were all bad designs (Kill la Kill is I hope intentional). At least as far as I - not being an artist but having watched too anime and thought too much about character design - can tell.

MrHide-Patten said:
But then these sorts of designs don't fly for a lot of women (and men) and expecting them to would be silly of me. When I'm designing for personal shits and giggles, I'm only ever thinking about what I like, as opposed to a more professional setting where my thoughts are more audience motivated. In defiance to what is assumed to be cynically motivated; "oh he only draws that stuff for attention", no, I draw that stuff because I like that stuff. So when I 'dial it down', I'm actually being more cynical; "better alter this or a lot of people will throw their shit at me".
I can't really give an opinion without having seen a lick of what you've drawn. I can assume it's terrible, if you want.

MrHide-Patten said:
I believe it is this line f thinking that motivates publishers to put female characters on the back of the box. Whilst a lot of outcry does put a dampener on the overtly sexualised female character, the affects seems to spill over onto realistic female characters (even Ellie from the Last of Us had sexist claims lobbed at the developers).
Oh yeah, that was a thing, wasn't it? What was the complaint, anyway? That aside, I think you're wrong abut this particular thing. Rockstar was pressured by their publisher to take Ellie off the cover, but I don't think it was because they were worried about being called sexist. Just a hunch.

MrHide-Patten said:
Broad generalization incoming: Part of the problem is eastern character designers cannot seem to make a female character that isn't sexualized (by virtue of lack of fucks given, and the potential to sell merchandise to 'otaku's'), western media doesn't want to use them at all due to perceived negative market impact (Publisher: "Put da ***** on da back yo, or my hommies won't buy dat shit").
I think that is indeed a broad generalization. You may be looking in the wrong places (well, "wrong places" isn't the right phrase, but whatever). I mean, have you seen Attack on Titan? It's got the sex appeal of a rusty spoon (although I would 3D manuever Mikasa's gear any time). Then of course you have the whole 'moe'...thingy, which is essentially innocence as sexuality. And then there are schoolgirls. Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of schoolgirls, which I suppose in a Venn diagram would fit in the intersection between "realistic" and "moe". There's the gorgeous, flowing, and visually busy noodles that are the characters drawn by CLAMP, the chibi stylings of Ume Aoki, the inhuman dreamy figures of take...wow, I know more about this stuff than I thought.

As for your second point, I'm pretty confident that's exactly what Activision's marketing director sounds like.

MrHide-Patten said:
Also can good writing, providing a sense of context, "save" a character that is designed with some sex appeal in mind? Bayonetta for example, the character is incredibly over the top, and owns her sexuality in a very domineering manner.
Good writing cannot "save" a character in that way. The writing and the design have to go hand-in-hand, Bayonetta being an obvious example (although I do think the "it's that way because it's all over-the-top and stuff" concept has been stretched about as far as it can go, since just off the top of my head there's Gurren Lagann, Bayonetta, Dragon's Crown, and Kill la Kill). Many writers try to pull a "no u c shes just confident in her sexuality its vrey progressive kthxbai". That doesn't cut it. Star Driver - whic has a number of characters dressed in what are fairly literally stripper outfits - pulls this off quite well, in part because of its equal-opportunity fanservice, but more importantly because it's a show about sexuality. And giant robots. But mostly sexuality.

MrHide-Patten said:
For Kill la Kill, for what I have been told the costume is a bit of the shows joke. The clothes are sentient I can figure and that the form that takes on is not of her particular desires, but if you want the super powers you have to have the 'stripperiffic' outfit. Why doesn't it transform into something more 'practical'? Designer wanted to have laugh perhaps, or simply because of reasons listed above.
I'm not going to analyze the conceptual underpinnings of a show that hasn't even aired yet, so I won't say you're wrong. As I said, I am most certainly not going to just write off Kill la Kill. It promises to be an exploration of the concept of "schoolgirl", which is a superb subject for a modern anime to tackle, probably even more ripe than Gurren Lagann's "what is 'mecha'?"

Or it could be nothing. It could be the designer wanted to have a laugh. It's tough to tell how much you should read into something like TTGL.

MrHide-Patten said:
TL;DR: By drawing women do I get to appreciate female characters more because I'm desensitized to the sexuality to some degree?And can good writing and clever contextualising validate a sexually inclined design?
I know I covered the second question already, but I wanted to make something clear, in case it already wasn't. It's not a matter of "clever contextualizing" "validating" a design. The story is not there to bend over backwards for the inclinations of the character designer. The two have to click on a basic, conceptual level. It goes both ways - you can't have a sensuality-laden story and have Christopher Nolan direct (although that would be funny) - but I am going to take a story as seriously as the character designer wants me to, whatever that may mean.

MrHide-Patten said:
Why do I care: Creating in future should I design for the evil purposes of satisfying my own (warped) tastes, or create for the many even if my heart wouldn't be fully into it, but I get the gratification of mass acceptance later?
I'd want to see your work rather than arbitrarily passing judgment, but I'll make these broad suggestions.
1) Important: Do what you want to do.
2) More Important: Accept criticism.
3) Most Important: Determine if that criticism applies to your work.
4) See if you can figure out what the core or theme or whatever you're trying to formulate in your art is. I mean, sexuality, probably, but sexuality is a broad topic with astoundingly little overlap in what people find "sexy". Explore yourself and see what you find. To give a literary example, Nisio Isin wrote both Katanagatari and Bakemonogatari. Katanagatari's about a guy fighting people with magic swords using his super-awesome kung fu, and Bakemonogatari's about a guy fucking his sister with a toothbrush (no, wait, that's Nisemonogatari, my bad), but thematically they are identical.
 

Shia-Neko-Chan

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OP, You and I seem to share very similar views. I am also an artist that draws less conservative outfits. If I get into the gaming industry, I'll still design the characters in the same way.

It's just what I like. That's why I get kind of unhappy when people insist that every artist that makes outfits like that are automatically "pandering" or that their works are going to automatically suck. I've had people tell me in the past that I'm only drawing what I do "for the views" before. I guess it's impossible to simply like making sexy characters for some people. :p

Dr. Cakey said:
Good writing cannot "save" a character in that way. The writing and the design have to go hand-in-hand, Bayonetta being an obvious example (although I do think the "it's that way because it's all over-the-top and stuff" concept has been stretched about as far as it can go, since just off the top of my head there's Gurren Lagann, Bayonetta, Dragon's Crown, and Kill la Kill). Many writers try to pull a "no u c shes just confident in her sexuality its vrey progressive kthxbai". That doesn't cut it. Star Driver - whic has a number of characters dressed in what are fairly literally stripper outfits - pulls this off quite well, in part because of its equal-opportunity fanservice, but more importantly because it's a show about sexuality. And giant robots. But mostly sexuality.
Chiming in here to say that I believe it can. I wouldn't call it "saving" a character, though, because the character isn't being saved from anything.

When it comes down to it for me, it doesn't matter what a character is wearing. If a character is interesting, that's what I'll remember. It just so happens that I like the less conservative designs and see the potential of skin being a part of an outfit's aesthetic. I think it's great. Basically, every aspect of a character is that character to me, including what clothing she wears and how she reacts to it. So if I see a character proudly wearing a less conservative outfit, I simply come to the conclusion that the character likes that kind of clothing, because realistically that's the only conclusion I could make about that person in real life or in fiction. I guess it's because I see and judge characters as people. I guess that's why "she's confident in her sexuality" works for me. If not every real person fits into an archetype or needs some deep reason for liking the clothing they do, I don't see why written characters should.

While it isn't realistic or practical (while mages wearing cloth robes to fight a 60 ton fire breathing dragon ishahahahahahahaha...), practicality and realism aren't exactly what I look for in entertainment or art. In fact, reality is exactly what I'm escaping by enjoying these works. I feel like confining the definition of good visual character design only to what would be deemed "practical" in this world only limits creativity and diversity.

trollnystan said:
Shia-Neko-Chan said:
I just wish everyone understood this instead of trying to actively shame artists whenever they make designs like these (this mainly happens in nerd culture and the video game industry). It's pretty disheartening when they do that. :/

This is the best thread on this topic in a long while, though. Lots of people willing to accept that people like to enjoy and draw different things. :)
Sorry, afraid you're giving me too much credit here =( If I see character design that I consider ridiculous I will point and laugh-- or bury my face in my hands and groan. I'll defend a person's right to draw it, but if you try to plunk a bikini warrior babe or the like into a serious story without some justification for why she, as a warrior, is wearing a bikini (or the like), I will question the artist on their design choices.

This is why I can't play most modern JRPGs.
Let me clarify. There is a difference between not liking a design and shaming him for creating it. Shaming is more along the lines of "Dragon's Crown was designed by a 14 year old who just went through pubertyhahahahaha I am more mature because I have superior tastes and I'm totally hilarious." or "He doesn't respect his audience and is SEXIST OH NO!!". Basically not criticisms of his work but negative, (sometimes deliberately) insulting conclusions of an artist or his intent or views based solely on his tastes in visual character design (all of which also have insulting implications for the fans who do like his designs).

But simply not liking a design because it's not something you find aesthetically pleasing or doesn't meet your personal criteria for good character design (things like realistic practicality or how conservative it is or what you think the character should wear based on their apparent archetypal personality) is totally fine. Not everyone likes the same things. I can respect that.

It's just that your post before seemed pretty open minded (even if you don't like designs like the ones presented in the opening post) and I wanted to compliment you on it, since I feel open mindedness is a little scarce in nerd culture right now. ^_^

I feel like JRPG's was a good example for you, though. The characters are drawn to be visually pleasing in those games and rarely are any of the characters of any gender drawn to have practical outfits for their journey (usually they're wearing stylish fantasy clothing while fighting giant enemy crabs).

But I just LOVE the clothing they wear. I actually can't stop staring at the character's clothing in Tales of Xillia right now for that very reason. They're some of the greatest designs I've ever seen.

I should go play that now...

MrHide-Patten said:
Why do I care: Creating in future should I design for the evil purposes of satisfying my own (warped) tastes, or create for the many even if my heart wouldn't be fully into it, but I get the gratification of mass acceptance later?
I thought about that, too, when the artist shaming got really really bad. I almost reconsidered my dreams of getting into the gaming industry. But I decided I'm going to keep doing what I do. If I do get into the gaming industry and I get actively shamed for my work, then so be it.

But hopefully by the time I get there, the industry will have gotten more progressive and realized that video games are now considered art and should be treated as such. It has room for everyone, not only the ones who prefer more conservative visual design.

Just keep doing what you're doing. There was a time in my life where I only drew what people expected of me and I ended up being really bored of art after a while. My heart wasn't in it at all and it showed in my work. I almost quit all together and then I realized my art should be about me. So I created a new deviantart account and drew for myself and only myself there from then on and now I feel that my work could become a potential source of income in the near future if I keep working on it.
 

MrHide-Patten

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Futurehero said:
MrHide-Patten said:
MrHide-Pattern's post
(A bit off topic)
Dude, I hope you don't get upset at me asking you this, but what is it with your way of drawing eyes?
I know that's probably your style, and you've gotten used to it, but it looks incredibly distracting.
Those huge, elongated eyes, look better on , I dunno, a pokemon, or an alien, but not on anything human.
Even when you take into account stylization and anime influences , it still comes off creepy looking.
The way they look implies that all you characters have this permanent "sultry" look , but if they'd ever open their eyes fully they'd wouldn't fit on their faces.
Otherwise, your art is pretty cool . It's cool that the women you do draw don't look like part of the Anime Anorexia brigade, but dem eyes.....
Dr. Cakey said:
Those aren't his.
Actually he was referring to these:
Yeah I know what you're thinkin'; furries. These characters are pretty old and I used to draw Furries as a crutch because I couldn't draw faces very well... at all. Still can't , but didn't want to make 'em human by virtue of me being able to draw human faces better. It?s like turning Link into a girl, as violently as people oppose that idea.




It's an old habbit that dies hard, I wouldn't go singing my praises as some artist genius (that's why I added "sorta" every time I referred to myself as an artist).

Mostly it's my toning and colouring work that get's any practice these days at work, but definitely proportion is one thing I need to greatly improve upon. Just drawing in general.
 

Dr. Cakey

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Shia-Neko-Chan said:
Dr. Cakey said:
Good writing cannot "save" a character in that way. The writing and the design have to go hand-in-hand, Bayonetta being an obvious example (although I do think the "it's that way because it's all over-the-top and stuff" concept has been stretched about as far as it can go, since just off the top of my head there's Gurren Lagann, Bayonetta, Dragon's Crown, and Kill la Kill). Many writers try to pull a "no u c shes just confident in her sexuality its vrey progressive kthxbai". That doesn't cut it. Star Driver - whic has a number of characters dressed in what are fairly literally stripper outfits - pulls this off quite well, in part because of its equal-opportunity fanservice, but more importantly because it's a show about sexuality. And giant robots. But mostly sexuality.
Chiming in here to say that I believe it can. I wouldn't call it "saving" a character, though, because the character isn't being saved from anything.

When it comes down to it for me, it doesn't matter what a character is wearing. If a character is interesting, that's what I'll remember. It just so happens that I like the less conservative designs and see the potential of skin being a part of an outfit's aesthetic. I think it's great. Basically, every aspect of a character is that character to me, including what clothing she wears and how she reacts to it. So if I see a character proudly wearing a less conservative outfit, I simply come to the conclusion that the character likes that kind of clothing, because realistically that's the only conclusion I could make about that person in real life or in fiction. I guess it's because I see and judge characters as people. I guess that's why "she's confident in her sexuality" works for me. If not every real person fits into an archetype or needs some deep reason for liking the clothing they do, I don't see why written characters should.
I disagree. I'm not asking for a paradigm shift - do I need to remind you that I called this...
...brilliant? The writer for Star Driver didn't scribble in the margins of the script "they wear bathing suits and heels because it's...easy to move in or something lol". It's thematically resonant with the characters and the story as a whole, even though some of these people are """confident in their sexuality""" (I'm sorry, that really needed more than one set of air-quotes) and some aren't, because a) They're high school students playing at being a shadowy global conspiracy, b) The world of Star Driver is FABULOUS, c) Everybody in the damn show is gorgeous, no matter their gender, and d) Basically everyone wants to have sex with everyone else.

Let me give you an example where this absolutely did not happen. Have you seen the anime "Btooom!"? It's actually pretty good - it's made by Madhouse, after all, and they make good stuff. In the series, the principal female character is nearly raped twice - once before the series begins, and once in the early episodes - and spends a good portion of the show afraid of men. And justifiably so, apparently, because the show cannot seem to get over the fact that she has breasts. I mean, fuck Sucker Punch, can you imagine what she would feel like if she knew there were a bunch of guys watching her take a bath through an invisible camera? She'd probably kill herself.

I could write for another half hour or so, but I have things to do so, uh, bye for now.