Deus Ex: Invisible War

[dietpeachsnapple]

I didn't like Deus Ex 2, and it wasn't necessarily because it was a bad game, it just wasn't the game I wanted or expected. I wanted more of Deus Ex RPG/FPS gameplay, complete with a continuation of the storyline. But Deus Ex 2 was to Deus Ex what Bioshock was to System Shock 2.

mhmm, I think you have nicely summarized why I am ABLE to like DE2, while everyone else who has known about it was insistently against its "winning" attributes. I have been able to play DE2 without experiencing DE1. This allowed me an unbiased and unpainted experience of its gameplay.

The complaints surround the things that were poorly augmented or removed. I had no expectation and no specific desires. Honestly, I thought it was going to be a horrible game when I first loaded the game.

DE2 MAY be the bastard child of DE1, but I loved it for what it was. NOW, I am now fully expectant of playing DE1 for hearing its virtues. Looking back, I think that DE2 COULD have implemented skills and RPG components with little difficulty. This is perhaps a disappointment, but is more so a dumbing down for console versions.

In any case, thank you for your input and I look forward to fully understanding your perspective.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

[quote="dietpeachsnapple" post="326.115801.2224324
mhmm, I think you have nicely summarized why I am ABLE to like DE2, while everyone else who has known about it was insistently against its "winning" attributes. I have been able to play DE2 without experiencing DE1. This allowed me an unbiased and unpainted experience of its gameplay.

The complaints surround the things that were poorly augmented or removed. I had no expectation and no specific desires. Honestly, I thought it was going to be a horrible game when I first loaded the game.

DE2 MAY be the bastard child of DE1, but I loved it for what it was. NOW, I am now fully expectant of playing DE1 for hearing its virtues. Looking back, I think that DE2 COULD have implemented skills and RPG components with little difficulty. This is perhaps a disappointment, but is more so a dumbing down for console versions.

In any case, thank you for your input and I look forward to fully understanding your perspective.[/quote]

I suppose I can expound on my initial response. Deus Ex 2 did quite a few things "right" in my book, not the least among which was the resolution of graphic errors and a substantial improvement in how the game looked in general (DE 1 did not even give your character a jump animation - when you jumped your character returned to the neutral pose and just sorta floated up and then down). This, however is an expected thing, and the only way it really matters is if the game had either not improved or somehow managed to look worse. Additionally, some of the essential concepts remained in play - you still had plenty of character interactions and a strong (and fairly compelling) narrative. Finally, the gameplay itself was competent.

But, it seems as though there is one essential thing that went "wrong" in the process. While the skill system in DE was hardly mind blowing in it's depth or complexity, it allowed a player even further options for customization. Because a player only had a limited number of XP to distribute during the course of the game, the variety and depth of experience shifted radically. One player may choose to specialize in only one weapon and dump xp into skills like lockpicking and hacking, allowing them to puruse alternate routes through the world. Anotehr player may try to play as though they are a ninja, and use the various stealth augs and melee weapons to pursue their goals. Some people would inevitably choose to become the sterotypical super solidier and master many different weapons and choose augs that increase their lethality or their own durability. But DE2 rejected this approach and instead a player's options for customization are even more limited. While some may applaud the decision to make it possible to swap the augs after they have been installed, I didn't care for the option.

If I were to give an incredibly short reason as to why I didn't care for the sequal it's simply this: When playing DE 1 I was able to forge my chracter to fit whatever style or approach I wanted to take through the game and each decision throughout the process became meaningful and important. By making my character proficient at most everything, by giving me universal ammunition and by giving me the ability to swap augs whenever I chose, I was no longer creating a character to pit against the perils of the world, but instead simply tuned my character to the situation of the moment.

There's nothing particularly WRONG with that approach (it is afterall how most shooters operate), but as I stated before it wasn't the gameplay I wanted or expected from a product in that IP line.

 

[dietpeachsnapple]

I suppose I can expound on my initial response. Deus Ex 2 did quite a few things "right" in my book, not the least among which was the resolution of graphic errors and a substantial improvement in how the game looked in general (DE 1 did not even give your character a jump animation - when you jumped your character returned to the neutral pose and just sorta floated up and then down). This, however is an expected thing, and the only way it really matters is if the game had either not improved or somehow managed to look worse. Additionally, some of the essential concepts remained in play - you still had plenty of character interactions and a strong (and fairly compelling) narrative. Finally, the gameplay itself was competent.

But, it seems as though there is one essential thing that went "wrong" in the process. While the skill system in DE was hardly mind blowing in it's depth or complexity, it allowed a player even further options for customization. Because a player only had a limited number of XP to distribute during the course of the game, the variety and depth of experience shifted radically. One player may choose to specialize in only one weapon and dump xp into skills like lockpicking and hacking, allowing them to puruse alternate routes through the world. Anotehr player may try to play as though they are a ninja, and use the various stealth augs and melee weapons to pursue their goals. Some people would inevitably choose to become the sterotypical super solidier and master many different weapons and choose augs that increase their lethality or their own durability. But DE2 rejected this approach and instead a player's options for customization are even more limited. While some may applaud the decision to make it possible to swap the augs after they have been installed, I didn't care for the option.

If I were to give an incredibly short reason as to why I didn't care for the sequal it's simply this: When playing DE 1 I was able to forge my chracter to fit whatever style or approach I wanted to take through the game and each decision throughout the process became meaningful and important. By making my character proficient at most everything, by giving me universal ammunition and by giving me the ability to swap augs whenever I chose, I was no longer creating a character to pit against the perils of the world, but instead simply tuned my character to the situation of the moment.

There's nothing particularly WRONG with that approach (it is afterall how most shooters operate), but as I stated before it wasn't the gameplay I wanted or expected from a product in that IP line.

More than fair, and completely understandable!

Your final points in particular.

You are right - a majority of FPS does not bother with augmentation and customization. You get your weapons, and they do what they do. You get your character and he/she does what he/she does. DE appears to have broken that mold all to hell.

I increasingly get the impression that, ignoring graphics, if DE2 came first, everyone would have loved DE1 even more for taking something innovative and making it better. As it is, DE2 looks like a downgrade.

I feel like everyone has been skirting around the graphic "problems," of DE1.

resolution of graphic errors and a substantial improvement in how the game looked in general

Lack of jump animation included, what are your specific complaints? I am trying to understand what you meant about the jump. From what you described, your view goes up, then comes back down...

Isn't that a jump animation?

 

[oblivionenigma]

Just wanted to add... There was no skill grinding per se. Unlike most games that give experience primarily through combat, you get experience by completing missions/quests. Side missions and story-related missions both do so, thereby giving another incentive to explore (as if you needed one). You get experience whether you sneak through an area and do your thing quietly, or use rocket launchers to level the place. In fact, it seems to reward you for finding more creative ways to finish a quest. This also prevents "power-gaming," as there is really no way to max out all your stats. That may be a turn-off to some people, like those who used to stay in level 1 areas for days maxing out their Final Fantasy characters
The leveling was not so crucial that you were royally screwed if you didn't level up a character "perfectly." I recall progressing at a rate that kept the game approachable but not a cakewalk. There is also enough leeway so that, say if I'm the sneaky blackjacking computer hacking dude, I can maybe also invest in a bit of explosives or heavy weapons along the way, just in case... Or maybe get mediocre in everything... Or maybe become a god with just the baton. You get the idea. Enough points to spend to make your character good in what you like, but not enough to make him an invincible god who can kill enemies with mind bullets.

As far as killing people, looking back I guess I honestly can't tell you if you can get through the game without killing anyone. I know that much of the violence can be avoided. I just can't remember if maybe there were key characters that needed to die. Guess I need to play again >.> I remember that in the first level, I felt bad for the enemies when I realized that any guys I didn't deal with (ie if I sneaked by them) would be killed and the bodies looted by my "backup." Soooo I made it my mission to find EVERYONE and knock them out so they could be captured without bloodshed. It also helped me get ammo and stuff, which is always nice. Admittedly, I don't think that really accomplished anything, but it was satisfying

 

[dietpeachsnapple]

Just wanted to add... There was no skill grinding per se. Unlike most games that give experience primarily through combat, you get experience by completing missions/quests. Side missions and story-related missions both do so, thereby giving another incentive to explore (as if you needed one). You get experience whether you sneak through an area and do your thing quietly, or use rocket launchers to level the place. In fact, it seems to reward you for finding more creative ways to finish a quest. This also prevents "power-gaming," as there is really no way to max out all your stats. That may be a turn-off to some people, like those who used to stay in level 1 areas for days maxing out their Final Fantasy characters
The leveling was not so crucial that you were royally screwed if you didn't level up a character "perfectly." I recall progressing at a rate that kept the game approachable but not a cakewalk. There is also enough leeway so that, say if I'm the sneaky blackjacking computer hacking dude, I can maybe also invest in a bit of explosives or heavy weapons along the way, just in case... Or maybe get mediocre in everything... Or maybe become a god with just the baton. You get the idea. Enough points to spend to make your character good in what you like, but not enough to make him an invincible god who can kill enemies with mind bullets.

As far as killing people, looking back I guess I honestly can't tell you if you can get through the game without killing anyone. I know that much of the violence can be avoided. I just can't remember if maybe there were key characters that needed to die. Guess I need to play again >.> I remember that in the first level, I felt bad for the enemies when I realized that any guys I didn't deal with (ie if I sneaked by them) would be killed and the bodies looted by my "backup." Soooo I made it my mission to find EVERYONE and knock them out so they could be captured without bloodshed. It also helped me get ammo and stuff, which is always nice. Admittedly, I don't think that really accomplished anything, but it was satisfying

First, there is a beautiful inconsistency with being able to say that one is a "god" using a baton. It sounds like a person being "lethal" with a nerf gun. There is a horrifyingly entertaining mental image that goes with those words.

Second, the game has mind bullets?

Otherwise -

I will DEFINITELY try to get through the game at least once without killing anyone. There is a troubling difficulty with the whole situation from the idealistic perspective. In DE2, I DID beat the game without killing anyone PERSONALLY, but there were situations in which you allow people to die, witness them die, or otherwise could not do anything about it.

As for power gaming - there is something satisfying with the ability to utterly outclass one's opponents, but there is always room for a challenge, and I would not shirk that.