Do Americans have a right to carry?

[maninahat]

Well even if the guy has a right to carry fire arms openly, in Philadelphia law it states clearly that an Officer is allowed to detain people carrying firearms, just on the precaution that they might be a threat to the public. I think the cop was doing the right thing. From his perspective, he had to take huge precautions with a guy carrying a deadly weapon in a public place. He is going to become even more jittery when the guy doesn't appear to be doing what he is told, even at gun point.

Now ok, the guy was offering to hand his license over. The cop was obviously wrong about the carry laws. But the guy was in the wrong for arguing and not doing as he was told. And that is the problem. DON'T EVER FUCKING ARGUE WITH COPS! I can't stress that enough. If you calmly do exactly as you are told, then you'll get through things a lot easier. You can always hand in your license at the station, or if the copper eventually asks for it. From the cops perspective, a potential murderer could always say "I have my license, right here sir!" and then blast the cop's head off whilst reaching for it. That is why the cop has to first take these important steps to protect the lives of him and everyone around him. Even if that means making a perfectly innocent man kneel in the dirt. better than getting shot.

 

[maninahat]

Not going to state my personal views on guns, would take too long. all I'm going to say is that the victim was being perfectly reasonable, and the officer was being the opposite. I only listened up to the part where the victim mentions that he has a permit and driving license and will show it to the officer. Then immediatley the officer radios in for backup because his victim is causing trouble. Completely irrational response from the officer.

I agree here. I think this thread could go on forever in a debate over gun rights and the interpretations of various laws, but I think the point is in the way the cop behaved. This would have been handled so much better if the cop were simply acting in a rational and calm manner, the way that we expect officers to behave.

Without the image, it is hard to see things from the officer's perspective. He sees a man walking around with a gun at his side. Instantly, the cop knows this man may potentially be very dangerous and might be planning something hostile. He is acting within his legal capacity to ensure the man is not a criminal, or that he can't harm the public. Just because the guy keeps saying "I have a license" doesn't change anything. Cops are specifically trained to be suspicious of people who keep wanting to reach into their pockets when at gun point. They are also suspicious of people don't appear to be doing exactly as they are told. After all, if the guy really was innocent, why shouldn't he just cooperate fully? That is the cop's logic. His life is on the line, dealing with a situation that could end up with someone dead. He is going to get very god damn angry in the circumstances.

 

[Quellist]

SNIP

He didn't listen to the officer. He should have been on his stomach, then hand cuffed, then placed in the back of a squad car until this was cleared up. That's the law. That's what 'TEMPORARILY DETAIN' means. A person a few posts up quoted the law relevant here.

if i may? no, he was the reasonable on here, he had the gun legally and was supposed to have it out if he didn't have a concealed carry permit, the cop was a stupid piece of shit that refused to listen to him, in case you didn't notice the retarded cop had his gun trained on him before he even told the man to turn around, he was already being unreasonable well before the confrontation started. just so you know, i want to be an officer, i think this was to far and out of line and the cop was in the wrong here man.

With you on this, if the cop wasn't sure if the guy had a licence he should have politely asked the guy to produce it, not acted as though the guy was a dangerous criminal.

And to those saying 'he should do what the cop says' sorry, in any society not a police state we don't have to arbitrarily follow the orders of someone in uniform 'just because they say so'. They are supposed to obey the law, not just enforce it.

 

[Groundchuck]

In PA you can openly carry a firearm without a license, but need a permit to carry a concealed one. In Philly you need a concealed permit to carry a firearm openly, also each permit is issued by county and some are valid in multiple ones but again Philly has to be difficult so there permit is different. Also as stated, its not unreasonable to ask for the proof of a license, but it is to flip out and call some Jhon Wayne wannabe back up who is not totally informed in the letter of the law. This will no doubt lead to a lawsuite and this guy will get paid, but do poilice men really have to wonder why they get a bad wrap?

 

[Dr. wonderful]

Link [http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun]

This incident happened several weeks ago in Philadelphia to Mark Fiorino, a 25-year-old IT worker who carries a gun on his hip at all times for self defense. He got the gun after several friends were mugged.
But he didn't count on attacks by police:
On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip. His stroll ended when someone called out from behind: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?"
Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him.
What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law.

Amazing how the police can damn near shoot you when you try to be the reasonable one.

...

Ahem, that guy have proof he owned the gun AND he openly carried. Last I check, to carry a guy hidden was against the law.


Fuck it, I don't know what I'm talking about. To the LIBARY!

...

Also, you totally gotten that from the daily news last week.

 

[Wintermoot]

I don't know anything about the gun laws in the states but shouldn't it atleast be concealed?

concealed is worse since it would be easier to smuggle it into banks.
OT
isn't it dangerous/illegal for a officer to draw his weapon on people that aren't a danger? (I know the guy had a gun but the guy wasn't hurting/threating anyone)

 

[Ryengu]

As far as gun licenses go, they really need to have a blanket liscence for the entire country, it's kinda unfair that someone can go from being legal in one place, take a step across an invisible boundary and suddenly be carrying illegally. Also, cops shouldn't be assholes. Protect and Serve, anyone?

 

[Mcupobob]

We open carry for self defense, it is perfectly reasonable to want to keep yourself alive.

That's a load of balls.

You carry a gun to feel safer, it makes you no more able to defend yourself than before. If I were going to attack you, I would walk up from behind then slit your throat first, you've got a gun, best never give you a chance to use it. Whilst you lie there drowning I'll take your gun, should be worth a few bucks or at least a few ounces to the right person.

Or I would just, y'know, shoot you in the back, since I can go and buy guns and ammo.

That it makes you any safer is a silly assertion, it's the number one method of both suicide and murder in the US, nevermind the higher than average rate of 'mishaps' with fire arms in America. If you want to be safer, you should walk around wearing a kevlar vest for all the idiots with guns.


#Edit.

I've just been on the NRA website. Even they assert that carrying a fire arm actually increases the risk to yourself and other people, the NRA says guns make life more dangerous and promote proper safety precautions.

Also, here's a cheery little graphics from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257769-Poll-Teen-Shot-dead-after-attempting-to-mug-man?page=3

This mans gun seemed to help defend himself against two muggers. As for the cop he was wrong and should get fired or hung. Nothing worst than when the people who are meant to protect you do nothing but oppress and harass innocents more than they catch criminals.

http://hw-mobile.worldstarhiphop.com/u/vid/2010/12/17/fiubnrfr_mobile.mp4

This guy was shot and killed for peeling a orange while walking the street.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Really awesome when police officers don't actually know the law, it makes things so much simpler, pull your gun and lay down your law!

 

[Treaos Serrare]

I'm sorry but it seems highly suspect to me that this cop would just draw on someone without identifying himself as a police officer, in fact if i understand the law correctly he could be suspended or outright fired for that. To say nothing of the fact he acted like a total asshole to this kid who was being polite and calm throughout this whole ordeal of bullshit.

someone posted the article the kid quoted to the cop earlier in the thread and it states that if you have the license for it you can open carry in Philadelphia, which I'm more than willing to bet that the kid did have.

This is not Germany circa 1940, Police SERVE the PEOPLE not the other way round, and they should not be treated like all powerful Gestapo to be feared like some people believe them to be

 

[Knusper]

I might be getting this confused with somewhere else in USA, but doesn't the gun have to be concealed, so that any potential murderer doesn't know who else on the street can fire back?

 

[Pearwood]

The idiot carries a gun everywhere he goes? He's fucking insane, what he did may have been legal (by some fucking retarded laws anyway, I'm guessing PA is in the south of America) but still get him locked away for some reason before he has a stressful day at work and shoots up the office.

 

[Brandon237]

And the officer was being completely disrespectful, unreasonable, unnecessarily aggressive and threatening from before the guy knew what the hell was going on, this makes compliance go to the bottom of the list of things on your mind. The law is there to guide people who don't have very good moral or social approaches to life, not to completely replace any shred of common sense or respect.
And again, any police officer who doesn't deserve respect should not get it and should not be one in the first place.

And you addressed, in very little detail, 1 point of the couple I made, ones that I'm rather scared to even have to make knowing that people who SUPPORT this exist. It is a scary thought.

Disrespectful? You sir, are hilarious! He has no obligation to say 'Please, I'm a little put off that you have a gun, would it bother you if I asked you kindly to get on the ground' instead of 'Get the fuck on the ground now!' I hear people in California complain when the police aren't all roses and sunshine, but this was in Philly, not that it matters.

The law this idiot is holding so dear, demands he be detained. End of story. It's his fault he didn't comply. The second he doesn't comply, then talks back, he is resisting.

If any person calls me junior while pointing a freaking gun at my back unnecessarily they are being disrespectful as all hell. And while he has no obligation to do so, it would certainly be the best way to handle situation instead of swearing and coming off as a tourettes sufferer with a chip on his shoulder.

While the civilian's actions weren't perfect, they were reasonable, logical and all that was necessary. The cop was Undeniably trying to cause trouble: honestly, pulling out a gun, pointing it at a civilian and then calling them condescendingly, that is asking for trouble.

And again, law versus morality and common sense. Does it not make more sense to just check the permit there and then, no dignity violated, no time wasted, same results, less paranoia. It is common sense, if you can't see that now then you never will, and there never will be any point in arguing this. If you were in this person's position, how would you feel? If you say that you were happy that the cop tried to enforce the law, then I really am in the matrix after all...

 

[Dr. wonderful]

3.Is my License To Carry Firearms honored in Philadelphia?
Contrary to many rumors that have been floating around for years, a Pennsylvania License To Carry Firearms issued anywhere in the state is good anywhere in the state. Pennsylvania's Uniform Firearms Act provides a pre-emption statute which prevents anyone other than the state legislature from regulating the carry of firearms among other things. At one point in time Philadelphia had attempted to ignore this, but it has long been resolved

and

4.Do I need a License To Carry Firearms to openly carry a firearm in Pennsylvania?
In Pennsylvania a License To Carry Firearms is only required to conceal a firearm, or to carry a firearm in a motor vehicle. The law is silent on the act of openly carrying a firearm while not in a vehicle making it de-facto legal. It must be noted however that due to 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia) a License To Carry Firearms is required to carry a firearm in any manner on the streets or public property of a "City of the first class" (Philadelphia.)


That what I dug up.

 

[Bebus]

The policeman was being an idiot.

But by god, I never want to live in America. Who the hell thinks walking around with a gun is ok?

I'll take a low crime rate thanks to a better social welfare system anyday, thank you very much.

 

[emeraldrafael]

You're not allowed to carry a concealed weapon so far as I know as an average citize. But if you want to carry a gun, you can. You have to get a license To Carry, and they dont just hand them out like they do licenses for owning.

Though you should have a fair bit of common sense. Like, You shouldnt just walk into a daycare or school, cause you wont be protected if the establishment has a no guns/firearms policy.

Stillm you shouldnt be surprised if police stop you, mainly cause they dont know what you want to use it for, and most people dont just carry one around. The excuse "uits for my protection" doesnt fly well with Police, cause thats their job, and they feel they should do it for you. I think its mostly just to cut down on a vigilante justice system where someone feels threatened when there really isnt a threat there that will be acted upon and blows a hole through someones gut.

 

[HerbertTheHamster]

Americans should not carry, they should drag.

 

[LCP]

The idiot carries a gun everywhere he goes? He's fucking insane, what he did may have been legal (by some fucking retarded laws anyway, I'm guessing PA is in the south of America) but still get him locked away for some reason before he has a stressful day at work and shoots up the office.

How did I guess you were from the UK?

That's the point of the license, the person made a course and got a permit. Nothing wrong with it, he was background checked.

Funny how people on the otherside of the world have a weaponphobia.

ITT people who don't live in America being condescending dicks due to some sort of ill- conceived moral superiority because they are unarmed.

Pretty much. makes no sense to me. I've lived in U.S for a bit and Colombia for another bit. It's gonna take a disaster to change their mind.

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

I've posted in the other thread not so long back about why the police in the UK should not be allowed to carry firearms.

Now I'm going to come full circle on this, I'm glad I don't live in the States, but if I did I would own a gun. Gun culture is massively ingrained in the states and if everyone around me has one I wouldn't be happy unless I had access to one and a decent amount of training too (a case of when in Rome do as the Romans do).

Trying to remove US gun culture is impossible, so as much as I wish it were unnecessary those who live in the states do have a right to carry.

 

[demoman_chaos]

You can legally carry a weapon except where posted. You only need a license to carry a concealed one. But legally if it is in plain sight you can keep it on you.
The rule for bladed weapons is 4 inches or less, which is kind of silly to me. You can only have a 4 inch blade (which I hesitate to call a knife, mainly because I own a bowie and kukri which are 4x that), but you can carry any kind of firearm. Not 100% on what the law is for blunt weapons. If I can't carry a sword, I'd carry a flanged mace