Do Racism and Comic Books Go Hand in Hand?

[Archemetis]

Disney's marketting will fix this?

We are all thinking of the same disney that managed to make DUMBO a racist movie, right?

I know, different time and all that jazz, but still, those Crows were nothing but a huge racist joke, Also, when have you seen a dashingly handsome male lead in a disney movie that isn't white?
Or female lead? The only character I can think of from a disney movie related movie that wasn't a white person was Lilo, and people cared more about Stitch anyway...


Disney won't fix this image, they'll carry on with the same tried and tested method and people won't care either way.

I realise now how much I forgot, Seeing as Jasmine is of course an Arabian Disney Princess, but she's the only non white featured disney princess, the others are considered, but never marketted as such, which is why I found it so easy to forget them.

 

[annoyinglizardvoice]

I think it's market appeal, any self respecting marketing analyst would hopefully agree with me. Currently the comic book market is mainly held by white males, and the comic companies want to sell lots of comics to make lots of monies.

As a white male, what could you relate to easiest, a white male superhero that came from a lower/middle class background or a black male superhero that came from the same background. As with many comics the sellers want to have people relate, and therefore buy more of their comics, if someone relates it's easier for them to get into the story, and then becoming a repeat customer is more likely to follow.

So what I am saying is: As soon as more comic book readers become black, female, asian, whatever (other than white and male) the comic book companies might start to make more lead roles be of different genders/races.

I may be missing something here, but I've never understood why a character needs to be of the same race/gender/social background for the reader to have any ability to relate to them. I've never noticed any of these factors affecting my ability to relate to a character.

 

[ryuutchi]

The X-Men, or at least the main team, I'd like to point out, are supposedly diverse but are mainly made up of White Americans. What's the line up people remember? Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Storm, Rogue, Wolverine, and maybe Jubilee if you're lucky. Out of those nine, three are non-American, and two are persons of color-- with only Storm overlapping in those categories. Don't tell me X-Men is exactly a bastion of racial diversity. Later teams got a bit better, but really not by much.

Well, to begin with the X-Men are portrayed as an American-based team. Their headquarters is on the east coast, their founder is an American, etc. Despite this, a full third of their main line-up (as presented by you) is made up of people of foreign origin... That's actually quite a few people.

As for the persons of color... WikiPedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States) states that the ethnic breakdown of the U.S. is about 74% white. Your lineup is just under 78% white. Given the extremely low level of precision in a team this small (11% increments), your lineup is literally as close to matching the US demographics (at least in terms of white/non-white) as is possible. And that's "not exactly a bastion of racial diversity?"

I'll point out a line in that Wiki article, though: "These figures add up to more than 100% on this list because Hispanic and Latino Americans are distributed among all the races and are also listed as an ethnicity category, resulting in a double count."

Now go back to that list of X-Men and tell me where the Hispanics are? Because White Hispanics count as "white", they skew the numbers. Right after the chart you quote, is commentary that minus White Hispanics, White people count as about 50% of the US population.
So, actually my numbers prove that, in fact, the X-Men don't match US demographics. And, uhm, also, the X-Men are full of white people, and the argument I was poking at stated that "Black Panther and the X-Men" prove that somehow Marvel has a diverse lineup. However, the X-Men are three-quarter white, if not more, depending on the line-up at that particular moment, and, well, that's not exactly particularly diverse.

 

[ryuutchi]

I may be missing something here, but I've never understood why a character needs to be of the same race/gender/social background for the reader to have any ability to relate to them. I've never noticed any of these factors affecting my ability to relate to a character.

I think part of it is that American culture socializes people (speaking EXTREMELY generally) to expect that the "default" human being is White, male and heterosexual. Because of this, white, male heterosexuals are conditioned via constant repetition to expect that the heroes will default to being white, male and heterosexual. Often, the only time that the heroes aren't said "default" is when the show or comic book or movie is aimed specifically at an audience that isn't white, male or heterosexual.

I think it's more common for people who aren't white, male and heterosexual to be able to identify with white, male heterosexual characters than for people who are the "default" to identify with characters who differ. This is a huge generalization, of course, but it's true more often than not, I'd guess.

 

[The Kangaroo]

What the fuck? No! that's not racism, that's knowing your audience and appealing to them to help with immersion, if the majority were black females, the characters would be tailored accordingly

 

[BloodSquirrel]

Well, let's see.

#1 How many new characters really gain any popularity nowadays? The comics industry has been in a huge, continuity-snarl rut for a long time now. Comic sales are decreasing overall. Meanwhile, anime and manga are increasing in popularity, despite not actually being American. It's almost like you're more invested in creating crap like Civil War than creating new, interesting properties or moving your brand forward.

#2 Maybe people are just turned off by ham-fisted attempts to handle race issues that tend to pop up when you create affirmative action heroes instead of interesting characters who just happen to be minorities. It's also really difficult to predict what will and won't be popular. Just look at Deadpool- he started off as a bland, almost one-off villain and now he has three books out. Spider-man started out in an anthology series (the last issue to boot). You can't just try to force a couple of titles with minorities through, then complain about people being racist when they fail.

 

[Bat Vader]

Hmmm.. now that you mention it, some comics are pretty racist.

Take for example Dr. Bruce Banner. Most of the time everybody leaves him be and is nice to him, but as soon as he changes skin colour an army of white guys with guns, tanks and helicopters tries to kill him.

The Man won't let a green brother live in peace, always trying to keep the Hulk down, ignoring the fact that he's an intelligent doctor and valued member of the scientific community, The Man can't see past his skin colour.

I'm sure we can find a lot more isms in comic books if we look hard enough.

I don't think it is the green skin colour they are worried about. The destruction The Hulk causes is what I think they care about.

 

[jthm]

As a writer, I tend to write my main characters from the perspective a white male because that's what I'm most familiar with. I probably couldn't write a good, serious black character in contemporary society because I don't have enough of a black frame of reference. It's not racist, it's just the most effective way to write a believable character.

That said, it is true that there are wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more white comic book protagonists than black protagonists and it does get a bit tiresome.

Luke Cage, Storm, NiteHawk, Black Panther, Isaiah Bradley (the Black Cap. America), Blade, Static Shock, Forge, Steel... All that come to mind at the moment.

 

[jthm]

Disney's marketting will fix this?

We are all thinking of the same disney that managed to make DUMBO a racist movie, right?

I know, different time and all that jazz, but still, those Crows were nothing but a huge racist joke, Also, when have you seen a dashingly handsome male lead in a disney movie that isn't white?
Or female lead? The only character I can think of from a disney movie related movie that wasn't a white person was Lilo, and people cared more about Stitch anyway...


Disney won't fix this image, they'll carry on with the same tried and tested method and people won't care either way.

I realise now how much I forgot, Seeing as Jasmine is of course an Arabian Disney Princess, but she's the only non white featured disney princess, the others are considered, but never marketted as such, which is why I found it so easy to forget them.

Ali would have to be Arabian also.

Pocohantas.

 

[Samoftherocks]

If anything, comics have catered to audiences in each era as they thought they could. Superman, for example, is the whitest American in existence to have powers greater than all other heroes put together because that was the era he came from. It wasn't racist that he was made that way, that was the social acceptable norm of the time. There's no way to translate that into todays thinking, which is good because it shows we've grown as a society. The addition of heroes other than white is basically playing catchup with logic and modern life. Why would it be so that every person bestowed with super powers is white? Answer: it wouldn't. That said, I can't think of many non-white villains.

Disney existed in the same age where stereotypes were acceptable forms of parody in their movies. The worst one, Peter Pan. There is a song called "What made the Red Man red?" about white men kidnapping and raping the cheifs daughter. No shit. There's no specific mention of rape, but anyone who's studied the history of the American west would know that whitey doing anything involving stolen women usually went something like the evil violation.

Disney has long since abandoned that mode of movie making for a more girl-friendly princess parade (except Pixar which I don't count as Disney, thanks Movie Bob), and if they decide to bring notes to meetings with Marvel, every comic that you like is gonna go soft...real soft. 'Nuff said...

 

[Archemetis]

Disney's marketting will fix this?

We are all thinking of the same disney that managed to make DUMBO a racist movie, right?

I know, different time and all that jazz, but still, those Crows were nothing but a huge racist joke, Also, when have you seen a dashingly handsome male lead in a disney movie that isn't white?
Or female lead? The only character I can think of from a disney movie related movie that wasn't a white person was Lilo, and people cared more about Stitch anyway...


Disney won't fix this image, they'll carry on with the same tried and tested method and people won't care either way.

I realise now how much I forgot, Seeing as Jasmine is of course an Arabian Disney Princess, but she's the only non white featured disney princess, the others are considered, but never marketted as such, which is why I found it so easy to forget them.

Ali would have to be Arabian also.

Pocohantas.

I've had that same example put across by about five different friends, and while she's supposed to be a disney princess, when it comes to princess merchandise, do you ever see her on it?

 

[Ausir]

The X-Men, or at least the main team, I'd like to point out, are supposedly diverse but are mainly made up of White Americans. What's the line up people remember? Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Storm, Rogue, Wolverine, and maybe Jubilee if you're lucky.

Off the top of my head, I'd definitely add Colossus, a Russian.

Or female lead? The only character I can think of from a disney movie related movie that wasn't a white person was Lilo, and people cared more about Stitch anyway...

You forgot Mulan.

As for Black DC characters, what about Black Vulcan?

 

[AceCalhoon]

Dang it, I stopped following the thread, and now my response is completely irrelevant. Posting it anyways, because having the wrong numbers up annoys me.

Right after the chart you quote, is commentary that minus White Hispanics, White people count as about 50% of the US population.

Okay. Within the chart itself, it lists the non-hispanic white population as 66%. The 50% referred to here is probably the percentage of hispanics who are white. That would be six people on a team of nine, the X-Men have seven. The deviation is a single person, which isn't that uncommon in small samples.

Now go back to that list of X-Men and tell me where the Hispanics are?

There aren't any in that particular lineup. On the other hand, Asians are over-represented. And Germans are practically off the chart. That sort of thing happens with small sample sizes.

However, the X-Men are three-quarter white, if not more, depending on the line-up at that particular moment, and, well, that's not exactly particularly diverse.

Exactly what percentage would be required for them to be considered diverse? Or at least not un-diverse?

 

[DanDeFool]

no no no no don't even try to bring race issues into comic books. sure there are not that many black superheros but that's probable just because there are not that many black comic book writers. i don't think the industry has any problems with black superheros so the industry is therefor not racist.

This.

I write fiction as a hobby, and in writing you have the benefit of not having to call attention to the race of any character. Still, whenever I picture a character in my mind I catch myself almost always thinking of white people. It's not because I'm a racist; it's because I identify with my own race more than I do with others.

In visual media this becomes more of an issue because you can't evade the question. From a writing perspective, it's difficult to write characters that are another race than your own because you don't really 'get' another race's experience unless you've known a lot of people of that race and have interacted with them on a deep enough level to where you can really understand what effect it has on them.

You say that's not really a big deal for comic book writing. Okay. Think about Peter Parker. What if Peter Parker was black? That means Uncle Ben and Aunt May are both black. Does Uncle Ben have the same perspective on life having lived through the civil rights era? Is Peter still friends with Harry Osborn? Does he still get involved with Mary Jane Watson? Well, maybe not since Peter's family might not live next to the Watsons any more and Peter might have no interest in an interracial relationship. See how complicated this gets? Stan Lee's got to know a lot about the African-American experience and perspective to be able to make his character's background and perspective believable. Maybe he doesn't know, or doesn't want to take the time to figure it out. Maybe all he cares about is that he has a cool idea for a superhero and isn't thinking about whether people are going to call him a racist later on down the line for making a bunch of white superheroes instead of a combination of different races.

So no, comic books are not racist. If anyone is a racist, it's probably comic book publishers who no doubt ignored a bunch of sweet comic book ideas featuring characters of non-white races between 1930 and 1970, when most of the iconic American superheros like Spider-Man and Superman were created and when racism was still widely accepted in America.

 

[DanDeFool]

Or female lead? The only character I can think of from a disney movie related movie that wasn't a white person was Lilo, and people cared more about Stitch anyway...

You forgot Mulan.

And Pocahontas. And Aladdin.

 

[hcig]

so...if you cater to a specific audience, and that audience happens to be specific

then they are racists?

that is friggin stupid, its like saying that if the majority of people who eat at jack in the box are white males, jack in the box (and anyone that eats there) are a bunch of racists.

 

[hcig]

Or female lead? The only character I can think of from a disney movie related movie that wasn't a white person was Lilo, and people cared more about Stitch anyway...

You forgot Mulan.

And Pocahontas. And Aladdin.

mulan and aladdin are probably my favorites. of course, i also love chinese legends, and it doesnt hurt that ive got a curious obsession with the middle east,

 

[Misterian]

I used to think Racism only went hand-in-hand with comics back in the early 1900's.

Far as I know, it was a time period where people could get away with it.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

What no love for Patriot?

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and don't forget Black Panther a.k.a Marvel's Batman...

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And DC has Mister Terrific

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