Do you think recent games in general hold the players hand and have become simplified
- Thread starter Dree
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Yeah, I heard that swinging the expression "hand holding" around as if it was a dead cat is apparently internet speak for "I'm good at videogames, now notice that and be amazed"...
Sorry, being cynical. But there's some truth in this:
Sorry, being cynical. But there's some truth in this:
See, in Morrowind, you actually got "directions". Go that way until you see that tree, turn to the left and then north when you come to a particular rock formation. Both OB and Skyrim lack such descriptions.wombat_of_war said:
Generally speaking, I don't mind the hand holding. I play video games to relax and escape into a different world, and I'd prefer that the games narrative continue, rather than feeling stuck and confused in an open world. I agree that games should have the option of turning floating arrow features off, because they do distract from all the time the artists put into the game world, but I usually play games with hints turned on, because such features help me avoid becoming frustrated during my finite gaming time.
I remember having to have a map of Vvardenfell spread out next to me at all times while playing Morrowind and having to actually navigate via landmarks and directions given by the NPCs. I didn't even realize Oblivion had a map until someone had to SHOW ME there was a fast travel option.
I also remember having to read the quest text and navigate via the in game world map in WoW back in BC and Vanilla. Once someone told me about the quest addons whose name has left me right now, I stopped reading quest text altogether. Now it's just a normal part of the game even without addons.
Games have reached a wider audience because of features like these that help the less skilled players get to what they need to do quickly and efficiently. But I still can't help but look fondly on those days when I'd rage from a Cliff Racer ambush while finding my bearing on the map.
I also remember having to read the quest text and navigate via the in game world map in WoW back in BC and Vanilla. Once someone told me about the quest addons whose name has left me right now, I stopped reading quest text altogether. Now it's just a normal part of the game even without addons.
Games have reached a wider audience because of features like these that help the less skilled players get to what they need to do quickly and efficiently. But I still can't help but look fondly on those days when I'd rage from a Cliff Racer ambush while finding my bearing on the map.
i am currently playing morrowind, cunting over 150 hours in so far. trust me, very few quests give details good enough (coupled with awful map in vanilla at least, oh the things we take for granted now like maps). i spent mroe time wandering aimlesly searching for something than doing the actual quest. i dont know maybe im just dumb, but morrowind does not tell me explicibly enough.Vegosiux said:
i d agree that ames have gotten better at telling the player what they want to do. better tutorials, better decribtions of objectives and many are confusing it to "holding your hand". in reality many games dont do that, with obviuos exceptions like wow or COD.
as with most arguments on this kind of topic, each can be countered with dark souls. The point being that there isn't less off a particular type of game, just more variety.
and minecraft for example.
And although I think it can be entertaining, I don't think it is very accesible if you have to google world maps and the fastest way to get around it map running with the boots of blinding speed. Not alot of people are going to accept that. Path finding is fun, aimlessly wandering a mountainside even with an alt tab to a detailed map is just tiresome. I do believe some quest markers have gone to far but I have no problem whatsoever with a general direction compass.
For those not getting the reference, there is caves in morrowind I have literally cursed, since directions where often fuzzy as hell and what was and was not a path was never clear. Being told something is south east and finally finding out east north east is more accurate is pretty infuriating.
and minecraft for example.
And although I think it can be entertaining, I don't think it is very accesible if you have to google world maps and the fastest way to get around it map running with the boots of blinding speed. Not alot of people are going to accept that. Path finding is fun, aimlessly wandering a mountainside even with an alt tab to a detailed map is just tiresome. I do believe some quest markers have gone to far but I have no problem whatsoever with a general direction compass.
For those not getting the reference, there is caves in morrowind I have literally cursed, since directions where often fuzzy as hell and what was and was not a path was never clear. Being told something is south east and finally finding out east north east is more accurate is pretty infuriating.
No... I think it is what is perceived due to the natural progression of games...
Old 'classic' games involved 3-4 buttons, a D-pad and a lot of going right... Or simple corridors to run down! Games nowadays are gorram HUGE! There are countless ways to go, and places to see, and things to do...
I will use Skyrim as the example, because it's the Bethesda games that seem to be on people's lips... What would you do if you literally were just told the name of a cave you had to go to, and then try and find it on your own!? With the map the size of a small county!? Having the marker not only tells you where the next objective is, it also gives you the choice to ignore it and find something else, if you so wish!
Another game I can use an example is Fable. It gets a lot of stick for the breadcrumb trail... But personally I couldn't do without it! The breadcrumb trail basically just tells you which path to take out of a certain area to continue the quest. This now gives me the choice (again) whether I want to progress, or possibly explore everywhere else too, so that I don't miss any goodies or minor quests before I progress. Older games would block you from entering areas that are not quest related yet, probably due to games not levelling bad guys, or for scripts to run in order, and access to certain areas will mess up the scripts. Modern games don't do this as much, and allow you to see areas important later in the games sooner. The markers just show you where you can explore and where you are meant to go... and if you explore and get killed in the process (because of high level bad guys from later in the game) then the game can just go 'I told you so', before you masochistically return over and over in desperate attempt to save your manlihood for slaying the beast that killed you! (Even if it is twice your level!)
I hope that was coherent!
Old 'classic' games involved 3-4 buttons, a D-pad and a lot of going right... Or simple corridors to run down! Games nowadays are gorram HUGE! There are countless ways to go, and places to see, and things to do...
I will use Skyrim as the example, because it's the Bethesda games that seem to be on people's lips... What would you do if you literally were just told the name of a cave you had to go to, and then try and find it on your own!? With the map the size of a small county!? Having the marker not only tells you where the next objective is, it also gives you the choice to ignore it and find something else, if you so wish!
Another game I can use an example is Fable. It gets a lot of stick for the breadcrumb trail... But personally I couldn't do without it! The breadcrumb trail basically just tells you which path to take out of a certain area to continue the quest. This now gives me the choice (again) whether I want to progress, or possibly explore everywhere else too, so that I don't miss any goodies or minor quests before I progress. Older games would block you from entering areas that are not quest related yet, probably due to games not levelling bad guys, or for scripts to run in order, and access to certain areas will mess up the scripts. Modern games don't do this as much, and allow you to see areas important later in the games sooner. The markers just show you where you can explore and where you are meant to go... and if you explore and get killed in the process (because of high level bad guys from later in the game) then the game can just go 'I told you so', before you masochistically return over and over in desperate attempt to save your manlihood for slaying the beast that killed you! (Even if it is twice your level!)
I hope that was coherent!
No.Dree said:
I believe that your statement is way too general. Go play Crusader Kings and then say that games have become simplified and hold the gamers hand throughout. Sure, SOME games have. But I do not believe it is as much of a trend as some people think. The games that many complain about being simple and holding the players hand are usually games from genres which have always been that way.
This guy went into a lot more detail.Elementary - Dear Watson said:
Seriously. People will ***** about everything these days.
personally I do feel theres too much handholding but... I dont take issue with a compass, I take issue with stuff these days that feels it is needed to point out weaknesses in really obnoxious ways.
Xcom has been a welcome break, nothing tells you what to do, you figure out what squads are a bad idea on your own, the tutorial was too long but I suppose alot of people would feel overwelmed by the number of things you need to track at all times
Xcom has been a welcome break, nothing tells you what to do, you figure out what squads are a bad idea on your own, the tutorial was too long but I suppose alot of people would feel overwelmed by the number of things you need to track at all times
a lot of western games have become over simplified in general and do have tedious tutorials that they force you through. however if you take a look at most Japanese games it seems they still have a lot of traditional aspects to them, they do have tutorials as well but i find a lot of Japanese games to be more challenging and expect more from the player.
example: Elder Scrolls versus Dark Souls. you can clearly see the huge difference in gameplay based on the cultures of the developers.
I actually prefer the Japanese approach. They base a lot of their games on the concept of hard work = satisfying reward. Mean while western games seem like they're made for lazy people and they just hand every thing too you with only a small amount of work to put in. I guess this is just a personal preference but I like working hard to get a reward, i don't like the feeling of being handed it for doing nothing. it loses all meaning to me.
example: Elder Scrolls versus Dark Souls. you can clearly see the huge difference in gameplay based on the cultures of the developers.
I actually prefer the Japanese approach. They base a lot of their games on the concept of hard work = satisfying reward. Mean while western games seem like they're made for lazy people and they just hand every thing too you with only a small amount of work to put in. I guess this is just a personal preference but I like working hard to get a reward, i don't like the feeling of being handed it for doing nothing. it loses all meaning to me.
I think the overall simplification of video games this generation is a necessary evil. Games are incredibly expensive to make, and most of the time it's just too much to ask from developers to risk alienating any possible buyer. it's much safer for them to make a game that's too easy for the more seasoned gamer in its basic mechanics, and level it off with difficulty settings.
Sadly modern gaming has become too linear and hand holding in comparison to the older days. People bring up Morrowind as an example for immersion, and for an example of how dumbed down and simplified gaming has become I would like to use the entire Modern Military Shooter genre, which is the pinnacle of mindless, dumbed down, hand holding gaming of the modern day. The entire genre is built around the idea that should the player be stuck or have a wayward thought for even a second then the design team has failed, so you get rushed through it on cutscenes, major scripted events, linear corridors, and are constantly told exactly what you need to do by your support AI should you have any.
To make games have wider appeal, developers are dumbing them down and designing them to hold your hand so any Joe-Idiot can pick it up and play. The idiot gamer market is a very large, and lucrative market sadly.
To make games have wider appeal, developers are dumbing them down and designing them to hold your hand so any Joe-Idiot can pick it up and play. The idiot gamer market is a very large, and lucrative market sadly.
Not all games have become super simple and decided to hold the players hand
Really it just depends on the genre, and a lot of the games that don't do this seem to be RPG's while a lot that do seem to be those big action titles which just makes those kind of games more accessible for those who don't want to put hours into learning a game
Really it just depends on the genre, and a lot of the games that don't do this seem to be RPG's while a lot that do seem to be those big action titles which just makes those kind of games more accessible for those who don't want to put hours into learning a game
VanQQisH said:
Those damn Cliff Racers. To this day they remain one of the most infuriating yet memorable part of my play through of Morrowind.
While I can see how some people might get frustrated by the lack of clear direction in games, honestly I kinda preferred the way Morrowind handled it compared to Oblivion and Skyrim. One of the main reasons why I play the Elder Scrolls series is the sense of adventure and exploration it gives me coupled with the freedom to go at my own pace. It felt more natural to, upon entering a new town, talk to everyone to get my bearings and stumble onto leads by chance rather than follow an arrow or a golden trail to my next objective. I liked being rewarded for immersing myself in the game's lore by reading all the books I could find (including guides and maps). I made it a point of downloading the mod that disables the quest marker as soon as I got Oblivion for the PC, and it really changes the dynamic of the game when you're actually forced to pay attention to NPC dialogue and a vague checkpoint on your map.
But hey, maybe I'm in the minority on this. I also preferred the limited fast travel system of spells, silt striders, and boats that made the game world feel bigger than it was to the instantaneous point-and-click map version, so go figure. I like a game that's willing to take its hands off the reins and let me find my way around organically and learn how to play through experimentation, it's what attracted me to Dark Souls too.
I didn't mention it but I also prefer this system to the point and teleport anywhere for free fast travel system. I remember how awesome it felt when I discovered the Travel Stained Pants that had an endless levitate spell on them. Granted you moved slower than usual but it was a God-like item.Gottesstrafe said:
Damn it felt good to ambush the Cliff Racers from above for once. The first time I did it, me and my brother were shouting and cheering with so much enthusiasm and the high five that followed the ambush was incredible.
I really do love Morrowind. I did install that awesome mod pack a little while back and have been getting back into it lately and it's as great as it ever was.
Most mainstream games have become a little "hand-holdy" in recent years, but there's a reason for this and from a marketing standpoint it's a good one. Mainstream games are created to appeal to EVERYONE - hardcore or otherwise. You have to keep in mind that most people who buy these games aren't looking for as much of a challenge as some of us are.
Still, devs try to appeal to the hardcore too. You can turn up the difficulty or shift some settings to make things tougher. I know that Skyrim had an option to turn off the quest markers.
And you can still find plenty of difficult games outside of the mainstream AAA market. Plenty.
Still, devs try to appeal to the hardcore too. You can turn up the difficulty or shift some settings to make things tougher. I know that Skyrim had an option to turn off the quest markers.
And you can still find plenty of difficult games outside of the mainstream AAA market. Plenty.
Yes, but you see, that's the problem. Choice! People aren't playing games the way I do, and haven't been playing them for as long, and that really pisses me off! I had to suffer through bad game design and dodgy controls and all those other hardships, so everyone else must!Elementary - Dear Watson said:
...Granted, I think a certain amount of "dumbing down" is actually dumb, but the above seems to be the recurring theme....How DARE you let people play the game wrong!