There are plenty female protagonists in violent video games. There are less female protagonists all round but I don't think whether it?s violent or not makes a difference.
Do you think that the reason females aren't main characters in violent games is because...
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OK, terribly sorry, but aren't most of the female characters in the games listed either wearing something revealing, skin-tight, or both? And even if they wear something more "conservative" aren't they typically just turned into sex symbols within a month of release anyway? And didn't most of those games either sell poorly or vanish into obscurity?krazykidd said:
The statement has been said already, but I'll re-emphasize. Publishers want to see profit from games. We have already seen that Publishers would prefer to cookie-cut games to make profits (See FPS) than they would create original, immersive, thought-provoking games with well-written plots/characters. One of the corners of that cookie shape is "Male Protagonist." Very few games that took the risk to create/focus on a female protagonist, even a well-thought-out one, have sold well, so regardless of other factors that the game may have against it, it's still hard to justify making the protagonist female if you can't prove it'll make money.
It's possibly for the same reason that there aren't many (or any) kids in those games, either. My history teacher taught me that much of the reason females weren't allowed in the army wasn't because the men felt disrespected but, instead, because the men couldn't stand watching women get killed right in front of them. So the OP's argument sounds pretty reasonable.
If females are main characters or even support characters, they're usually the same archetype: bad-ass brunette with a cold stare that'd make your balls freeze off. That archetype is fairly appealing, I suppose, but it gets really old after a while.
If females are main characters or even support characters, they're usually the same archetype: bad-ass brunette with a cold stare that'd make your balls freeze off. That archetype is fairly appealing, I suppose, but it gets really old after a while.
Could not have said it better myself.TheKasp said:
I remember Cliff Bleszinski talking about creating a female character in Gears of War (or Bulletstorm?) and he said you have to be careful to not make them too feminine, whilst at the same time make out to be different from an average male character.
I don't know how much it has to do with the 'violence' of the kill - if nothing else, horror movies usually kill the woman in much more violent way than the man (Watch the original texas chainsaw massacre for a good example) - this would suggest that horror game should have female protagonist if nothing else.
But it might have to do with suspension of disbelief.
I'm probably not going to get a lot of friends for saying this and may be called sexist, but what the hell...
In the great majority of case, men are simply more physically capable in combat rolls than woman are. Your baseline man is more capable than your baseline woman and your top-shape combat ready man is equally superior to your female top-shape combat ready woman. There is no denying this. Yes, woman can beat man, it's not impossible, but all things being equal, it is unlikely.
If you've ever partaken in a combat sports (I have wrestled myself), you know the difference that a weight advantage (let alone reach) can have in any sparing contest. There's a reason why they are weight category in boxing, MMA, wrestling and so forth - even a 20 pounds difference is HUGE. During my college years, I would have outweighted most 'woman athlete' by an easy 50 pounds... and that's before we get into biological differences.
I mean unless I'm mistaken, the US army has woman soldier, but they aren't used in the same ways as male soldier either. Is there any women in the Marine Corp or the SEAL?
So... what this create (for me and I know I'm not alone) is a bit of 'Yeaaaah... riiiight.' reaction when I watch movie like Salt where a 98 pounds Angelina Jolie takes out 6'3 210lbs goons with a haymaker... Now they ARE ways to make woman dangerous in combat - give them specific fighting style that enhance their natural abilities and so forth (While not a terribly good movie all around, Enough! with J-Lo has a pretty realistic - and brutal - fight scene between a man and a woman where the woman wins) - but having her trade blow with man more than twice her weight and somehow come out on top out of sheer 'plot-armor-ness' is just not believable.
So when you're sitting in a production meeting brain storming ideas for characters... I'm pretty sure it's much less likely for the idea of a 'woman ass-kicker' to be accepted simply because... well, there's the whole 'It doesn't work in a realistic setting' problem attached to it. And realistic and gritty are really big in the gaming industry nowaday.
You'll notice that this is much less of an issue with 'magical/fantastic/sci-fi' settings. For example, Buffy is a Slayer, she's not a normal human, so her kicking ass is perfectly normal in the given universe, regardless of gender. Same goes for Bloodrayne and the majority of female bad-ass in videogame history (baring Croft and Joana Dark).
And even then... as much as I liked Aveline has a character in DA2 - it just seemed silly when she was shield slamming 7'' tall Quaanari around like they were nothing.
But it might have to do with suspension of disbelief.
I'm probably not going to get a lot of friends for saying this and may be called sexist, but what the hell...
In the great majority of case, men are simply more physically capable in combat rolls than woman are. Your baseline man is more capable than your baseline woman and your top-shape combat ready man is equally superior to your female top-shape combat ready woman. There is no denying this. Yes, woman can beat man, it's not impossible, but all things being equal, it is unlikely.
If you've ever partaken in a combat sports (I have wrestled myself), you know the difference that a weight advantage (let alone reach) can have in any sparing contest. There's a reason why they are weight category in boxing, MMA, wrestling and so forth - even a 20 pounds difference is HUGE. During my college years, I would have outweighted most 'woman athlete' by an easy 50 pounds... and that's before we get into biological differences.
I mean unless I'm mistaken, the US army has woman soldier, but they aren't used in the same ways as male soldier either. Is there any women in the Marine Corp or the SEAL?
So... what this create (for me and I know I'm not alone) is a bit of 'Yeaaaah... riiiight.' reaction when I watch movie like Salt where a 98 pounds Angelina Jolie takes out 6'3 210lbs goons with a haymaker... Now they ARE ways to make woman dangerous in combat - give them specific fighting style that enhance their natural abilities and so forth (While not a terribly good movie all around, Enough! with J-Lo has a pretty realistic - and brutal - fight scene between a man and a woman where the woman wins) - but having her trade blow with man more than twice her weight and somehow come out on top out of sheer 'plot-armor-ness' is just not believable.
So when you're sitting in a production meeting brain storming ideas for characters... I'm pretty sure it's much less likely for the idea of a 'woman ass-kicker' to be accepted simply because... well, there's the whole 'It doesn't work in a realistic setting' problem attached to it. And realistic and gritty are really big in the gaming industry nowaday.
You'll notice that this is much less of an issue with 'magical/fantastic/sci-fi' settings. For example, Buffy is a Slayer, she's not a normal human, so her kicking ass is perfectly normal in the given universe, regardless of gender. Same goes for Bloodrayne and the majority of female bad-ass in videogame history (baring Croft and Joana Dark).
And even then... as much as I liked Aveline has a character in DA2 - it just seemed silly when she was shield slamming 7'' tall Quaanari around like they were nothing.
From a technical standpoint, if a game were to include male and female character models, that would mean twice the work. Women move much differently than men, so that's more mo-cap work, and require a totally different body structure for the model, so that's more modeling work.
Then, I guess from any other standpoint, what everyone else here said is pretty much spot on. The gaming market is predominantly male, and it's a bit iffy for publishers and developers to establish a new female lead (rather than the tried and true Samus/Lara) because it might not always work out. Grizzled men are always bankable.
Then, I guess from any other standpoint, what everyone else here said is pretty much spot on. The gaming market is predominantly male, and it's a bit iffy for publishers and developers to establish a new female lead (rather than the tried and true Samus/Lara) because it might not always work out. Grizzled men are always bankable.
I think you just described...RagnarokHybrid said:
<url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rodriguez>Michelle Rodriguez
(Those fucking Captcha's are getting really obscure now)
Not true at all. The reason that 'males' think that they cannot relate to female protagonists is because society forces them to think that anything even remotely female will turn them into a nancy boy while women are actively encouraged by society to be 'strong and masculine'.Blore said:
Get past your own societal pressures and you will find it is very easy to relate to female characters.
This might be off topic, but Michelle Rodriguez is pretty bad ass. It does kinda suck that she almost always gets killed off.CardinalPiggles said:
Anyway, to be honest, I don't really care if there are more female leads (it would be nice though) as long as it's good and doesn't affect the game's quality.
Very well said.I Have No Idea said:
I'm not so much saying that female characters can't be the lead characters, there are plenty of games where they are, but only if it means they are the ones shooting, not being shot at and if they are shot at, the deaths aren't as brutal as say Dead Space.
Maybe people would feel uncomfortable playing a multiplayer FPS as a female and knowing you have to snipe her in the head, rewarded with a spray of blood. Now, as a male, its not really a second thought, but are lead to believe that that sort of violence shouldn't involve women.
I personally don't mind really, just thought it was an interesting topic to bring up, I'd rather have a game whereby my main female character is there for a reason with a good and realistic plot and emotions then have a scanty clad, heartless beast of a woman shooting and brutally killing things.
Maybe people would feel uncomfortable playing a multiplayer FPS as a female and knowing you have to snipe her in the head, rewarded with a spray of blood. Now, as a male, its not really a second thought, but are lead to believe that that sort of violence shouldn't involve women.
I personally don't mind really, just thought it was an interesting topic to bring up, I'd rather have a game whereby my main female character is there for a reason with a good and realistic plot and emotions then have a scanty clad, heartless beast of a woman shooting and brutally killing things.
Mirror's Edge never did that. You rarely saw her, and even then most of the focus was on her face. She was a toned, fit but not sexualized character in free moving clothes. There wasn't a hint of sex appeal to her until the fan crowd added it. Also had a powerful but not butch lead who was acceptably badass without going too far.zerobudgetgamer said:
Xenosaga sold very well. 1 and 3 were way over 1,000,000 each, and we'll ignore 2. Yet the main character is in a full work outfit (tight, but not so tight she becomes a sex-symbol).
The main problem is what larger publishers think the public want, and the problem is the majority of gamers aren't the kind on Escapist. The guys dropping 60 bucks on the newest shooter are (pardon the stereotype but it has proven to be true, through ads, surveys, and pretty much anyone who knows one) 18-30 year old guys who just got into the video game thing once shit blew up more. Smaller markets require smaller devs and smaller budgets, which is why a game like Amnesia will never be a huge seller. Cult classic in the making, but the fact remains it's a niche market, and even then a little too scary for most in that market. That's why the AAA industry has to get their head out of their ass and consumers as a whole need to stop reinforcing a warped perception of what we want. The reason the female action games didn't sell as well had nothing to do with it being a girl. The mature gamers can appreciate a good character, and the immature gamers ZOMGTITS. It has to do with the game as a whole not being as good. Heavenly Sword was a decent game, but nothing more, and it quickly faded into relative obscurity and $5 bargain bins.
Female characters are harder to characterize because of what we have built games to be in the past decade. By catering to a testosterone-fueled bunch of customers, we have forgotten how to make good female characters and they are turned into caricatures or archetypes we have all seen before. Books can characterize girls in action roles just fine, but games haven't gotten quite to that point, as a whole at least. Watch Jimquisition's video on sexism in games. Pretty much explains why the market has become how it is.
one thing I have to say is there seems to be a perception of the RPG girl protagonist. This doesnt really cut it I think because in an RPG your character is essentially a blank slate. Yes as a person said before femshep is played 1/5 of the time. But consider that for a moment. Yes guys are more likely to choose the male option for a blank slate character because well its familiar. What I think the OP was considering is scripted characters. Games where there is one set character and its a girl. It doesnt matter about the genre of game its the set character that is important.
zerobudgetgamer said:
Wait what? how many of these games have you played exactly ? I'll atmit that X-blades and Wet have women that wear revealing clothes.I also noticed you removed some of the games that i listed because it hurts your point, also Kingdom hearts was a joke because i never pass up a chance to hate on KH. Now the only one that may have fallen into obscurity is parasite eve and debatebly Xenosaga unless your a JRPG fan .
Which leaves , Tomb raider, , mirrors edge , FF6 , FF10-2 , FF13 and resident evil. Now dismissing perverted fan art (stares at tomb raider ,) none of these women are sex symboles in their respective games, they are all Strong independant woman , that fight for what they want , taking names and kicking ass.
Laura croft
Faith
Terra
Yuna
Lightning
Clair
Are all Forces to reckon with, and aren't afraid to get ther hands dirty.
Also, the point of me listing those games , was to show that they are games with female main characters.They have been in the past since the begining of the video game developement ( theres even a Ms. Pacman for christs sake ).
Also . Aren't most male characters in video games have all brawn and no brain ? The Alpha male everyone ( supposedly) wants to be? Hell theres a shit load of games with Big armed Muscle head protagonists that fall into obscurity. So , what's your point?
Anyways this diverts WAY off course of what the thread was originally about.
Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Fear Effect, Deathtrap Dungeon... I remember when games were unusual if they didn't offer a female protagonist. Where did we go wrong?
Personally, I blame MMOs - nerds treating WoW like an online dating service and having fits over the real life gender of the player behind the 'hot pixels' they were ogling, and the rise in online gaming in general. It's the only explanation I can think of for why there are less prominent female characters now than there were a decade or so ago.
Personally, I blame MMOs - nerds treating WoW like an online dating service and having fits over the real life gender of the player behind the 'hot pixels' they were ogling, and the rise in online gaming in general. It's the only explanation I can think of for why there are less prominent female characters now than there were a decade or so ago.
Precisely my point. Its nice to see games like Heavenly Sword which step out of the box of comfort a bit, and to be honest, I can see her doing all the agile stuff more so than a male, it just fits the part.jesskit said:
I'd also like to see more lead females in games where they are surrounded by male characters and yet still make themselves heard and known, this is why I mentioned Major from Ghost in a Shell, she is strong minded, can take a battering, leads the male characters around her, doesn't seem false, has a personality that clearly demonstrates her weaknesses and feminine side, all while getting herself covered in blood and not afraid to damage herself in the process. That's the sort of example I'd like to see from female leads, not unrealistic, stiff and always voluptuous.
I see that Square has recreated Lara Croft in this very image, she starts off weak and naive and becomes strong, independent and quite dominant in her mannerism from the experiences she has, this makes her seem realistic and despite being a male, I can identify with this FAR more so then I can Master Chief for example, who to me just comes across as a robot :/