Doctor Who: How do you transition from David Tenant to Matt Smith?

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Zombie Sodomy said:
Therumancer said:
That said I think one of the problems has been that in the modern Doctor Who we've seen some attempts to be consistant and do some real, lasing, world and character building, only to see it shattered. It can be argued (as your other responder pointed out) that this was never the idea behind Doctor Who, *BUT* I tend to agree that once they started doing it they should have continued to acknowlege it, I think the problem is they are trying to have it both ways, and it really doesn't work, the jarring impact of the way they did this really hitting the entire current fandom, "old school" fans who were here before the modern version are less bothered of course since, as was pointed out, it's happened before.
I actually like having a lot of character development and then having it shattered. It's brutal to watch, but how is that bad? As I mentioned earlier, it reinforces the fact that the doctor dies. It makes the transitions so much more tragic and, while not everyone likes that, I love it. I should be bothered when the doctor changes. It should piss me off that the character I've grown to love is killed off repeatedly. It makes the Doctor such a tragic character, that I end up sympathising with him all the more and dreading the day when he has to die. I love the Doctor because he's so sad, but he keeps putting other people before him at great cost to himself.
The problem is that he's still fundementally the same guy with the same set of memories, something which comes up when he confronts the same basic rogues gallery continously. There is a point upon which you'd have to expect a bit more to carry over than what we've been seeing.

Originally Doctor Who came up with the entire reincarnation gimmick due to it's low budget and the need to change actors, on what seemed to very much be a day-to-day series as far as survival goes, and where they literally used things like inflatable pool chairs as alien execution devices. Right now Doctor Who doesn't have that same kind of excuse, and I think it shows in the reactions to entire arcs of development being dismissed. I don't think it was ever really a part of the central characterization, so much as it was an excuse people simply accepted due to the realities of the show's production, and how at the time there wasn't a whole heck of a lot of other science fiction television programming.

Of course what I think is more or less irrelevent, but I think the path that was chosen means that the current incarnation of the series is always going to be in the shadow of David Tennant, and the strong writing that went
along with him.
 

smithy_2045

New member
Jan 30, 2008
2,561
0
0
The Tennant -> Smith transition I had no real issue with. The whole River Song bullshit that came along with it? That was annoying.
 

Soulrender95

New member
May 13, 2011
176
0
0
SaneAmongInsane said:
Then BAM! Regeneration. "Still not ginger", number 11 moves on with his fucking life with out so much a glance at his past or any of the deep feelings he's had in the past couple of hours.
The first valid complaint. The fact that he does pop up immediately does go against previous depictions of the regeneration. But I don't care, because Matt Smith is so much better than Eccleston or Tenant.
It doesn't go against all previous depictions of regeneration , it goes against most of previous Doctor's regeneration's but that is ultimately due to the fact that he is kind of an anomaly among time lords in the first place with him having little to no control over how he comes out where all the others at least have a degree of control, secondly his deaths are generally heroic sacrifices or traumatic events leaving very little time to prepare , 10's death was a long slow drawn out one that gave him plenty of time to prepare for it, hence it was much more like the Master's regeneration in Utopia quick and without most of the baggage, really the only other time he was really prepared for a regeneration was back in logopolis and moving from 4 to 5, but that was setup as being the regeneration that traditionally if it's going to fail then this is the one it's going to fail at.
 

Albino Boo

New member
Jun 14, 2010
4,667
0
0
SaneAmongInsane said:
undeadsuitor said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
Ugh.... I just got to the episode where they upgrade the daleks.

Seriously? Taller and bright new colors? Are they fucking George Foreman Grills now? The Daleks were already unstoppable killing machines, they didn't need an upgrade let alone one that made them STYLISH! How are these ones any better? Because the eyestalks are a bit different? Because their voice isn't the iconic screetch anymore?

And Pond doesn't remember the planet fucking moving? They seriously ret-conned that with the cracks on the wall? And I also just met River... Not going to ask how she knows who the Doctor is already but she seems like an entirely different character then the one we met in the library.

V,V It's just easier if I pretend this is an entire reboot.... Sides a version of 10 is still out there, in Pete's World. Granted he's human.
I'm not sure what's the point of the new colors, other than to distinguish the "Leader" Daleks from the normal ones (since you see normal colored Daleks in later episodes) , but the reason the Daleks are taller (and even changed at all) is because Matt Smith is a good bit taller than David Tennant. The "old" (really not that old) Daleks were designed to be Tennant's height to make them intimidating. Now that Smith's the Doctor he literally towered over the old Daleks so they made them taller to match.

Also it's not a "ret-con" if ONE person doesn't remember.

And the point of River is that her history is reverse to the Doctor's so you aren't supposed to know how they met (even though her story is explained in later episodes) The River in the library is the last River. The end of her story, you know..with her dying and all. It's River after she's spent a lifetime crossing paths and learning from the Doctor.



I'm not saying the 11's run is beautifully written or anything, but a lot of the problems you have with it are answered in the episodes.
I can see if, say he was taller than the Cybermen. Yeah that be a problem. But a Dalek? First time I saw them they were hard enough to take seriously, fucking trash can with a plunger ductaped to it and telescope. One episode and murdering an entire base of people later, yeah one Dalek = pretty fucking scary. They shoot freaking lazer's they'd be terrifying at any size..... But I can forgive the size.

The colors? No. There is no defending the colors. They look like they should be sporting the Apple logo now.

Yeah I've come to realize that about River... That's actually not a bad gimmick.

EDIT: I'm assuming if Amy doesn't remember it was erased from existence... but I'm only 5 episodes in.

The Daleks have colours because they had colours from the early 70s, when colour TV came in, to when they added Davros in the late 70s. Its not new, but a reference back to classic Who and also means these Daleks reject the authority of Davros. The Daleks rebelled against Davros and gave the leaders colours to donate rank, which was explained in the early 80s. Both Moffat and Gattis watched the show in that era and keep making references back to the old stuff, so when you think something is new and radical the chances are that it isn't and is probably 40 years old.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
14,986
796
118
Atmos Duality said:
I'm not entirely sure if that was the plan when Delgado was still alive and kicking.
That Trial of a Timelord business came around with Colin Baker second series more than a decade later.
It was...though I don't think Trial of a Time Lord was consciously using an old unused idea, just a fairly obvious one. Fighting your evil self isn't unknown, nor meeting yourself from the future.

Having said that, I want to see Matt Smith offed by the Valeyard, and then regenerate into him.

IronMit said:
I will add something;

It annoys me whenever Doctor Who says stuff like 'HUMANS! OMG YOU ARE SOOO AMAZING AND WONDERFULL AND SPECIAL AND AWESOME...etc etc etc' -(I don't care if they did this in the older seasons-It makes me cringe)

David Tenant's version of Doctor who is the worst offender..possibly because he had so many seasons they recycled that theme.
They did that in the classic series, in "The Ark in Space". Once. Just once, where it made sense in context. RTD loved that speech so much he put it in every second story because he couldn't put 45 minutes of story together..

Having said that, they sorta kinda had a few other times like that, where humans are seen by aliens as being "special", in the sense that they fight long and terrible wars for no good reason, and that sort of thing might be useful for aliens wanting to conquer the galaxy. The Doctor does not give a speech about how wonderful it is.
 
Jul 11, 2008
543
0
0
Personally I haven't been able to stomach Matt Smith's Doctor, It started off feeling like a hollow Tennant impersonation and just went whacky from there. I wouldn't mind a bit of the more zany stuff but the writing from then on just got worse and worse, there's only really been a couple of watchable episodes and one of those was essentially dreamed up by a child.

It's gone from a family friendly sci-fi show to the cheapest and laziest kind of fantasy writing and I'm sick of it and the boney faced moron they have fronting it.
 
Feb 8, 2009
355
0
0
My girlfriend and I had the same issue. She still misses the David Tennant episodes.

It doesn't help that Smith was completely off the wall jumpy/crazy right off the bat. It was quite the transition.

I've grown to like Matt though. Maybe not as much as Tennant, but I still enjoy the show. After all, regenerations have been keeping this show alive for so long. It is a very unique concept to change the main character every couple of years. It works though. It even sparks a lot of discussion like favorites and who is better, just like this thread.

Zombie Sodomy said:
*snip* For me, the new doctor's nonchalance was a brutal but effective reminder of what regeneration really is. Before that episode I was like, "well for the most part he can't really die so there isn't too much danger." but that sudden shift really shoved in my face that the doctor really dies every time it happens. It really was fucking heartbreaking. *snip*
This right here. I didn't think about it like that. It really makes regeneration seem like a big deal, not like an extra life or something.
 

bluepilot

New member
Jul 10, 2009
1,150
0
0
FEichinger said:
The thing is ... I absolutely didn't like 10's end. He should really have cheered up a lot after realizing "So, I'm not gonna fully die? Just another regeneration? Oh well."
The whole "I don't want to go" shtick was just ... odd, after he faced unescapable actual death shortly before.

That's what makes the transition to 11 so god awful to me. 11 made sense, if you cut out 10's whole goodbye blurghs. But that blurghs isn't cut out. It's there. And Moffat not honouring it at all and instead making 11 one of the most goofy characters just feels like a massive disservice.

I despise 11 - and Moffat, for that matter - for this simple reason: It was a reboot with no regard whatsoever to what Davies left it at, even though it could very well have been written properly into a goofy Doctor instead of just going "Still not ginger, WHEEEEE! ==D".
I think that 10 reacted to "dying" in the way that he did because he was the most human of all the Doctor`s so far. He became human for a while so regeneration gave him a real sense of loss. Also, I think that the 9th to 10th transmission was a lot easier for him because he did it for Rose.

I am still trying to get used to the 11th doctor too...(cries in a corner)...too much change too fast. At least the previous regeneration had some continuity.
 

userwhoquitthesite

New member
Jul 23, 2009
2,177
0
0
artanis_neravar said:
I must say Amy was one of my favorite companions. I absolutely hated Donna and everything she was, Rose got very annoying, but was still better than Donna and Martha was just forgettable. Amy leaving was also one of the saddest episodes in a long time, same with the latest Christmas special (I also like Clara so far probably even more than Amy)
Donna was far better than rose. She was intelligent, and managed to do things without being the doctors pawn, or requiring superpowers. Granted, she did GET superpowers, but then, as stated, Russel T. Davies was terrible.
And yes, Clara should be AWESOME. let's hope nothing ruins her promise, neh?
 

Albino Boo

New member
Jun 14, 2010
4,667
0
0
bluepilot said:
I think that 10 reacted to "dying" in the way that he did because he was the most human of all the Doctor`s so far. He became human for a while so regeneration gave him a real sense of loss. Also, I think that the 9th to 10th transmission was a lot easier for him because he did it for Rose.

I am still trying to get used to the 11th doctor too...(cries in a corner)...too much change too fast. At least the previous regeneration had some continuity.


Ok, you have only seen 7 years of a 50 year old show. The normal regeneration of the Dr is for him to completely change character, the change from 9 to 10 is the one that is different. Its just normal service being resumed. 1 was a grumpy old man, 2 was a space hippy, 3 was Dr Watson crossed with Sherlock Holmes, 4 was manic, 5 was quiet and wistful, 6 angry and shouty, 7 was quite menacing, 8 was a typical romantic lead and the rest you have seen. There is a pattern there, you just haven't seen enough of the picture to see it. To be blunt is you want continuity you are watching the wrong show, that is why the show is old as it is. There are 790 episodes of which the new who only accounts for 88, if they kept continuity over that number of episodes the Dr wouldn't be able to do anything.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

New member
Aug 22, 2011
1,660
0
0
I wish I could help you there, luv.

I can't.

I really want to like Matt Smith, but I find it extremely hard. I miss Tennant. Matt Smith... can't really put my finger on it, I've been on quite a disconnect ever since the Tennant Doctor died/left.

Apart from my usual troubles of putting up with change, I think it's got something to do with Matt Smith's face.

Or is that rather Mott Smoth.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l5gac2ettl1qcaonho1_500.png
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 26, 2020
6,505
2,079
118
Country
United Kingdom
8-Bit_Jack said:
Matt Smith pulls off the Doctors benevolence and his brutality perfectly.
He pulls it off better, there's no denying that, but he's still lacking in real gravitas or respectability. When Ecclestone made a decision, got angry, got upset, it meant something... and then almost any Tennant performance, to me, felt interchangeable with any other. Smith is a marked improvement, but he still lacks gravitas. The role still suits an older man, but target audiences have changed, unfortunately.



People seem to exclude Ecclestone from New-Who discussions for the simple reason that he's not a teenage fantasy in an eccentric get-up.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
14,986
796
118
albino boo said:
bluepilot said:
I think that 10 reacted to "dying" in the way that he did because he was the most human of all the Doctor`s so far. He became human for a while so regeneration gave him a real sense of loss. Also, I think that the 9th to 10th transmission was a lot easier for him because he did it for Rose.

I am still trying to get used to the 11th doctor too...(cries in a corner)...too much change too fast. At least the previous regeneration had some continuity.


Ok, you have only seen 7 years of a 50 year old show. The normal regeneration of the Dr is for him to completely change character, the change from 9 to 10 is the one that is different. Its just normal service being resumed. 1 was a grumpy old man, 2 was a space hippy, 3 was Dr Watson crossed with Sherlock Holmes, 4 was manic, 5 was quiet and wistful, 6 angry and shouty, 7 was quite menacing, 8 was a typical romantic lead and the rest you have seen. There is a pattern there, you just haven't seen enough of the picture to see it. To be blunt is you want continuity you are watching the wrong show, that is why the show is old as it is. There are 790 episodes of which the new who only accounts for 88, if they kept continuity over that number of episodes the Dr wouldn't be able to do anything.
Missing the point slightly, I think. As well as a new doctor, they had a new everything else.

The final 3rd Dr story had him working with Sarah (and the Brigadier and Benton to an extent), spends some time in a lab at UNIT HQ. The first 4th Doctor story has him working with Sarah, the Brigadier and Benton, spending a lot of time in a lab at UNIT HQ.

The final 4th Dr story has him fighting the Master, and Adric, Tegan and Nyssa are the companions. The first 5th Dr story has him fighting the Master, and Adric, Tegan and Nyssa are the companions.

Now, there was a big jump between 2nd and 3rd, new doctor, new companions, colour, stuck on Earth, very different stories, but usually there's something there to smooth the transition.
 

Albino Boo

New member
Jun 14, 2010
4,667
0
0
thaluikhain said:
albino boo said:
Ok, you have only seen 7 years of a 50 year old show. The normal regeneration of the Dr is for him to completely change character, the change from 9 to 10 is the one that is different. Its just normal service being resumed. 1 was a grumpy old man, 2 was a space hippy, 3 was Dr Watson crossed with Sherlock Holmes, 4 was manic, 5 was quiet and wistful, 6 angry and shouty, 7 was quite menacing, 8 was a typical romantic lead and the rest you have seen. There is a pattern there, you just haven't seen enough of the picture to see it. To be blunt is you want continuity you are watching the wrong show, that is why the show is old as it is. There are 790 episodes of which the new who only accounts for 88, if they kept continuity over that number of episodes the Dr wouldn't be able to do anything.
Missing the point slightly, I think. As well as a new doctor, they had a new everything else.

The final 3rd Dr story had him working with Sarah (and the Brigadier and Benton to an extent), spends some time in a lab at UNIT HQ. The first 4th Doctor story has him working with Sarah, the Brigadier and Benton, spending a lot of time in a lab at UNIT HQ.

The final 4th Dr story has him fighting the Master, and Adric, Tegan and Nyssa are the companions. The first 5th Dr story has him fighting the Master, and Adric, Tegan and Nyssa are the companions.

Now, there was a big jump between 2nd and 3rd, new doctor, new companions, colour, stuck on Earth, very different stories, but usually there's something there to smooth the transition.
So John Pertwee's character was close to Tom Baker's? There have always been massive jumps in who the Dr is and this whole thread is about the change in character between Doctors. The Dr has destroyed the Daleks at least twice, sometimes the cybermen are from the planet Mondas, sometimes they are not. The show has always done what ever they feel like with the lore to suit the dramatic purpose of the current writers.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
14,986
796
118
albino boo said:
There have always been massive jumps in who the Dr is and this whole thread is about the change in character between Doctors.
From the OP "new tarted up companion, new TARDIS, new sonic fucking screw driver"

Not just the new Doctor.

(As an aside, the original series cybermen always were from Mondas, they just moved to other places since then)
 

Plinglebob

Team Stupid-Face
Nov 11, 2008
1,815
0
0
After a couple of years watching Matt Smith as the Doctor, I went back to watch the Chris Eccleston/David Tennant episodes and my God it was painful. The only season I was able to watch more then a couple of episodes was the series with Donna (2nd best companion after Rory) and even then I skipped Midnight pretty much because there was no Donna. Also, Doctor Who has always walked the boundaries between Fun, Silly and Stupid and by the end of RTD's reign, they have just dived headling into stupid.

With Eccleston, I think he wasn't really around long enough to make a an impact as The Doctor and so was overshadowed by Rose, Jack and stories. When I think of the first season, I think of the creepyness of the Empty Child, those stupid farting aliens and the impact "Bad Wolf" had at the time.

With Tennent, he played a bad hand really well, overcoming some really bad writing and stories. If they had had a worse actor in the role, I think it would have killed the series for another 10+ years. However, what really killed it for me was John Simm as The Master. Again, I blame the writing more then the actor, but Derek Jacobi was a more threatening and interesting Master in the 5 minutes he was onscreen, then John Simm was in 4 episodes. Manic Vs Manic really didn't work.

With Smith, I think we finally have an actor who's being allowed to have fun with the role and a head writer who wants to encourage it. Its not without its problems (Amy is nothing without Rory and plots still go into the stupid territory) but now there'sa new companion, new Tardis and if the episodes at the end of last year are anything to go by, a toning down of the scale. "I got too big" is certainly true and a reset was both needed and welcome.

Zombie Sodomy said:
Edit: Does anyone know when it's coming back? I'm getting the shakes over here.
Saturday 30th March. Get excited!
 

Sargonas42

The Doctor
Mar 25, 2010
124
0
0
Matt is growing on me, but even though he has had as much screen time now as David did, it's still not quite there. The new show is just... I don't know.. not the same. Before Matt there was an underlying story arc, with lots of stand alone episodes, and things just kinda flowed nicely. The story was almost hidden till the last few episodes and then you had an "aha!" moment as it all came together. With the newest era, they practically throw the story arc in your face most of the time, and there seems to be a LOT more instances of "because time travel!" that are thrown around as an excuse.

In short, there is a right way and a wrong way to be both campy, funny, and still a solid story. I feel like the implausibility and camp was dialed up to 11 as Matt's first season progressed and it's really taken a LOT more suspension of disbelief than ever before to follow along. I'm ok with that, I mean, look at the old series! But still, they really established a bases for proving the fun of classic who with the anchoring of a gripping sci-fi story with 9 and 10, and it sort of set expectations for me.

As to the doctor characters alone, and throwing story aside entirely, I do like 11. I love 10 more, but I do like 11, more than 9 even. (but not 4!) 10 had some amazing character range, he could go from goofy to world-ending-serious-business with one syllable, but still did it with a certain bit of class and charm. 11 has the same range, but the goofiness is kind always there in some way, and has more of a nutty professor feel compared to 10's "professional" aura.

To answer the original question: Adjusting was quite hard... but by any case the show is still damn good!
 

Karma168

New member
Nov 7, 2010
541
0
0
Gizmo1990 said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
On a side note I cannot belive that the man who created Jack Harkness, who is great, also unleashed River Song on the world.
River was good when we first meet her; an equal to the doctor who knows all his secrets and can keep up with him. Add in the enigma of when will they meet and you've got a great character to sit on the sidelines as an easy story point.

But the new series decided to go from 0-100 and give us far too much River. I understand it's easier to have a few episodes at once as the actress lives in the states but they should have kept her as a background character rather than try to make her a main character and completely fill in her story (and ruin it with her family).
 

Gizmo1990

Insert funny title here
Oct 19, 2010
1,900
0
0
Karma168 said:
Gizmo1990 said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
On a side note I cannot belive that the man who created Jack Harkness, who is great, also unleashed River Song on the world.
River was good when we first meet her; an equal to the doctor who knows all his secrets and can keep up with him. Add in the enigma of when will they meet and you've got a great character to sit on the sidelines as an easy story point.

But the new series decided to go from 0-100 and give us far too much River. I understand it's easier to have a few episodes at once as the actress lives in the states but they should have kept her as a background character rather than try to make her a main character and completely fill in her story (and ruin it with her family).
I completly agree. When we first met River Song, I cannot say that I loved her but I was mostly indiferent. But the stuff with who she turned out to be just sucked. But at least i is not as bad as Torchwood has become.