Does PeTA...have...a point here?!

[SimuLord]

Reading this article [http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/25/florida.seaworld.death/index.html] about a woman at Sea World who got killed by an orca (or "killer whale", if you prefer), I have to agree with the PeTA spokesman. No matter how much Sea World tries to spin it as educating people about these majestic creatures, the fact still remains they're putting wild animals into spaces that are about the size of a bathtub relatively speaking and making them do silly tricks for gawking idiot tourists for profit. There's something...well, unnecessary about it.

I'm not usually one for agreeing with PeTA (I'm normally suggesting we feed Ingrid Newkirk to lions the way Romans disposed of Christians), but on this one they're spot on. My sympathies are with the whale on this one.

So discuss---are animal shows morally objectionable or do you think they're OK?

 

[Biosophilogical]

Depends, does the animal actually find it objectionable? Does the animal feel irritation, despair, anger? If the animal is actually suffereing then it's wrong, by all means, but if the animal has no emotions or opinions on the matter (the animal might be raised in captivity and therefore a tiny tank is it's norm, so there is nothing wrong with that) then there is nothing wrong, as no harm is actually done.

 

[Internet Kraken]

So discuss---are animal shows morally objectionable or do you think they're OK?

I don't see how morals come into play here. What we should be questioning is if it's a good idea to have a species known as killers whales preforming fancy tricks for tourists. Becuase then we end up with situations like the one you just mentioned. And this;

"Tillikum and two other whales also were involved in the drowning of a trainer at a Victoria, British Columbia, marine park in 1991. The trainer fell into the whale tank at the Sea Land Marine Park Victoria and was dragged underwater as park visitors watched."

I wonder what parents said to their children after seeing that.

I don't think there's anything morally wrong with keeping animals in zoos. Zoos and aquariums actually help a lot of injured animals that would not have normally survived in the wild. Zoos also help people stay connected with animals. When you've seen an endangered species in person, it's a lot easier to care about their habitat being destroyed. But I do think it's stupid to keep highly dangerous animals in captivity and make them perform in shows.

And why exactly do you sympathize with the whale? It didn't do anything wrong, but I don't see how it deserves pity.

The whale probably has no qualms about killing a human, just like we in general have no qualms killing any other species. It is a god damn top tier predator, why are people surprised?

Because it's not a wild animal. It's in a zoo. Obviously they are still dangerous, but people don't expect anything to go wrong.

For all we know, the Whales and preforming animals enjoy what they're doing, and this incident was an accident/misunderstanding, or something else provoked it. Many people would be fine living in a small space (myself included), and a lot of people like showing off or preforming. PETA just assumes the animals dont enjoy it, though granted some might not. So unless we find some way to communicate with them we wont know

The needs of most of animals aren't nearly as complex as those of a human. The people at Sea World do know how to properly take care of these animals. So yes, I do believe this was just an accident. But that's why I don't think we should be using dangerous animals for shows. I seriously doubt that most animals in zoos have miserable lives. Their primary concern is survival, and in a zoo that's pretty much guaranteed.

Using that logic, it's perfectly acceptable to raise a child in a cardboard box, because it thinks its the norm, so no harm done.

A child could not properly develop inside a cardboard box. This is hardly an accurate comparison, since the accommodations animals receive in most zoos are far more than just shoving them into a cage/fish tank.

 

[DkLnBr]

For all we know, the Whales and preforming animals enjoy what they're doing, and this incident was an accident/misunderstanding, or something else provoked it. Many people would be fine living in a small space (myself included), and a lot of people like showing off or preforming. PETA just assumes the animals dont enjoy it, though granted some might not. So unless we find some way to communicate with them we wont know

 

[SimuLord]

I wonder what parents said to their children after seeing that.

I'd probably say "Fuck, that was awesome!" and scar my kids for life.

 

[Umberphoenix]

I don't agree with PETA, although sometimes our viewpoints math each-other's. I don't agree with keeping dolphins in tiny tanks, but knowing PETA they'd want that poor orca killed instead of being slowly rehabitized (is that word? If it isn't I mean that the orca should be slowly re-introduced into its environment).

EDIT: I don't have a problem with zoos and aquariums where the animals are well cared for, but I don't really like the shows they put these dolphins on.

 

[Bofus Teefus]

No matter how much Sea World tries to spin it as educating people about these majestic creatures, the fact still remains they're putting wild animals into spaces that are about the size of a bathtub relatively speaking and making them do silly tricks for gawking idiot tourists for profit. There's something...well, unnecessary about it.

Oddly enough, this is almost exactly what I was thinking when I got dragged to Sea World.

Speaking of majesty - try coming face to face with sea lions in the ocean in SCUBA gear. They look goofy as hell on land, but they are scary fast underwater. Usually when they approach you to check you out, they speed directly at your face and veer off only at the last second. It's kind of humbling.

 

[ethaninja]

Reading this article [http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/25/florida.seaworld.death/index.html] about a woman at Sea World who got killed by an orca (or "killer whale", if you prefer), I have to agree with the PeTA spokesman. No matter how much Sea World tries to spin it as educating people about these majestic creatures, the fact still remains they're putting wild animals into spaces that are about the size of a bathtub relatively speaking and making them do silly tricks for gawking idiot tourists for profit. There's something...well, unnecessary about it.

I'm not usually one for agreeing with PeTA (I'm normally suggesting we feed Ingrid Newkirk to lions the way Romans disposed of Christians), but on this one they're spot on. My sympathies are with the whale on this one.

So discuss---are animal shows morally objectionable or do you think they're OK?

I personally hate making other species do things for our own entertainment. Bloody hell thats what the frikken TV was invented for. Humans are the superior race my ass. More like the superiority COMPLEXED race.

 

[The_Healer]

NO!

THEY DON'T HAVE A POINT!

I will never admit to them ever having a point, otherwise they would get all smug about it and start on bigger and more terrifying schemes to stop my carnivorous rampage!

 

[Therumancer]

You deal with dangerous animals, accidents happen. I have no objection to Zoos or Aquariums. What's more I'm not entirely sure if I agree with the "space the size of a bathtub" thing. I don't believe the area they perform in is actually the area they live in between shows.

Animals also do behave differantly, while a 30 year old specimin apparently, this one might have just gone totally bonkers. It even happens with domestic pets where a dog or cat will go mean without any mistreatment involved (despite what PETA might say). For that matter people go off the deep end too.

Just like other animals that attack or maul people, especially regularly, I think it might be time to put this animal down. Or maybe release it into the ocean far away from land .

As fond as I am of my pets (A slightly less than a year old Pug Puppy, and an extremely elderly cat) I do not see animals as being akin to people in absolute terms. Sometimes with your beloved pets you need to keep reminding yourself of that, human thoughts, motivations, and personality traits don't apply despite how it might seem at times.

Thus when you look at a domesticated animal, or one in a Zoo, the logic occasionally used by PETA of like "how would you like it if someone did that to you" doesn't really apply. A wild cat or whatever *MIGHT* have a larger 'territory' in the wild, but it holds that due to needing to hunt. For the most part it's going to do the same stuff it does in an
enclosure. What's more for all comments that it would "do better in the wild" in the wild it doesn't get a vet, a constanty supply of food, and the danger of some meaner animal coming by and pwning it and taking it's territory.

Now granted some animals DO deal better with captitivity than others.

Killer Whales are apparently one of those species that meets with very mixed results.

Also I'm not entirely sure from what I've read that this isn't a case of neligence of another sort. When dealing with an animal like that, I'd expect people to work in teams. As things sounded to me, it was just the one trainer (albeit experienced) and a crowd watching her work. Had another couple of people been handy to help out, things might have turned out differantly. Especially if those people were ready with diving gear/tranqs/whatever they use.

I am thinking of like Steve Irwin before he died. When he went out to catch Crocodiles and such to bring back to his clinic on TV, even he didn't go out there totally alone to do it. He had other people standing by who worked with him and knew what they were doing. The ray that killed him was kind of freakish (not much that could have been done), if if some croc had bit his arm or whatever chances are even if he got mangled there were people there ready to do whatever it took and who knew what they were doing.

I do not see why the same type of set up was not being employed in dealing with a Killer Whale, especially one that had been a problem before.

 

[Biosophilogical]

Depends, does the animal actually find it objectionable? Does the animal feel irritation, despair, anger? If the animal is actually suffereing then it's wrong, by all means, but if the animal has no emotions or opinions on the matter (the animal might be raised in captivity and therefore a tiny tank is it's norm, so there is nothing wrong with that) then there is nothing wrong, as no harm is actually done.

Using that logic, it's perfectly acceptable to raise a child in a cardboard box, because it thinks its the norm, so no harm done.

And why isn't it? If the child never, ever, ever feels upset or unhappy because of it's circumstances, what is wrong with the situation. If you want to go by 'The kid could have lived a happy life, so therefore by not making a better future the reailty i have sinned, then you could say that by not going out into the streets and fighting for *insert cause here*, that you have done something wrong, when, in fact, you have only done something 'not right' (there is a difference).

 

[Velvo]

Orcas in particular are similar to humans in that they can live up to 90 years in the wild and have a highly organized social structure.

In captivity, they have very little social interaction, comparitively, and on average only live to their 20s.

Little space, social deprivation, chemically 'enhanced' water, and frequent interaction with humans lead killer whales to be much more unhealthy and more likely to develop violent tendancies towards humans. In the wild there are very few cases of orcas injuring people. In captivity, there are many.

 

[Killerbunny001]

Depends, does the animal actually find it objectionable? Does the animal feel irritation, despair, anger? If the animal is actually suffereing then it's wrong, by all means, but if the animal has no emotions or opinions on the matter (the animal might be raised in captivity and therefore a tiny tank is it's norm, so there is nothing wrong with that) then there is nothing wrong, as no harm is actually done.

There was a study done several years back, I don`t have time to search for it now but interested parties should. The article tried and made a point out of demonstrating that most wild animals loose their marbles after being in captivity for too long. The first to loose what little mind they had in the first place are sea creatures because apparently swimming in confined, small place has this effect on them.

Most of Peta is made out of zealots how should be beaten sense into with large sticks but they do have a point here.

 

[bluepilot]

I have to agree with PETA on this one

I think it is okay to keep animals captive when they are bred in captivity. But forcing a wild animal, not just into captivity, but into interacting with humans, is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Even the most fervent idiots will get a point right once in their life.

Not today though.

As Kraken has said, (Boy, that's rather appropriate) Zoos and wildlife parks do a good job of keeping some species alive that would otherwise have died. If they need to get the public in to see the animals do tricks to keep them running, then that's capitalism at fault.

If it accidentally mauls someone, then watch those numbers soar...

Sad for the people that got killed, but it's a fecking whale, what did you expect?

 

[AcacianLeaves]

I think it's okay for rescue animals and endangered species to be kept in zoos and aquariums, but what Sea World is doing is just...silly. They're essentially dressing up these poor creatures as clowns and making them dance for tourists. It's stupid, and if you get in the same tank as something with fucking KILLER in its name, it just may try to kill you.

 

[Premonition]

We're animals and we work, animals work themselves, we employ other humans, we employ animals. As long as it's in a good working environment ... But here's the rub. ANimals will always be animals. Even us humans. So accidents will happen.

 

[TimeLord]

Animal shows are ok as long as it doesn't involve the animal performing tricks or anything like that. IMHO