Does sexist tropes in video games influence behavior? Violence =/= Sexism?

[grassgremlin]

I have been confused by this particular concept from both sides with a lot of people comparing violence to sexism when it comes to objectifying women in games.

The problem is this argument seems muddled heavily so, I've wanted to find some research on it.
What seems to be the general consensus is . . .

Those who say no site people like Jack Thompson and I've even been linked a Jim Sterling video on violence. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6692-Desensitized-to-Violence

We even seen videos like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxqSwzFy5w


However, I've also been told from those who say they do influence behavior that the violence argument does not factor. I've seen links like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB66tcIqDiE&list=UUGMegrt_97F75N-iUgyp0Tg

And I've seen people site this article as an affirmation that video games do influence something.
http://time.com/2940491/study-violent-video-games-morally-sensitive/


So I need to understand. Is comparing violence to sexism a proper comparison or are they entirely different elements.

Is it possible people's behavior when gaming and playing certain sexually active games have influence their responses to women? Even men?

What's going on here, I need to understand.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The issue if often strawmanned as "You play a sexist/violent game, it makes you a rapist", which is of course absurd.

However, people are greatly influenced by the culture and society they live in. Video games are part of that, along with eveyr other form of entertainment. On the whole, a much smaller part than say, movies, but it's still there. People pick up lots of messages without realising it, especially if lots of things are repeating the same message. Not just the sort of people that claim they know it all because they watch movies or play games, this sort of thing happens to everyone to some extent.

To put it another way, Coke, for example, spends lots of money on advertising and product placement, to get people to want to drink (and thus buy) more Coke. Watching an ad for Coke won't automatically make you go out and buy Coke. A (successful) ad campaign will result in more people buying Coke, though.

 

[Vault101]

I don't see how we can't be influenced by the media we consume....that doesn't mean we do exactly what we do in what we watch but...still

I mean go back to that old chestnut of "niceguys" (sorry) how many people in that discussion cite the common narrative of "mild mannered nice guy triumphing over all and getting the girl" and the fact that him doggedly persuing her is seen as endearing OR all those shows in which our everyman protagonist pines after a girl who's only defining charachteristic is "pretty and nice" I mean you can't deny you've seen that pop up a lot

 

[one squirrel]

A question like that can not be answered by debating in an online discussion board. There has to be done actual research on the topic. Even if everyone in this thread agreed on how media influences beavior, that would tell us absolutely nothing about whether we were right.

The argument that, if we see "X" in media and therefore do "X" is just an unproven claim. I could as easily argue that if media shows "X" we are more likely to do "not X". Repeating an unproven point does not make it suddenly more likely to be true.

My standpoint on the topic is that art is free and as long as there is no good evidence that a form of media does serious harm to society, there is no right for anyone to meddle with freedom of speech and artistic expression.

 

[StriderShinryu]

As has been said, being spurred to commit a violent act is vastly different from nurturing a sexist mindset. When so much of the media you consume trends towards a sexist point of view (not just in videogames but in all forms of media) then it's almost natural to have that point of view seem natural. It's not so much that it forces you to be sexist, but instead that it is accepted and acceptable to be that way perhaps without you even realizing that that's a view you're sharing.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I'm pretty sure they did a study on advertisements where they found the people who believed they were not affected by advertisements were the ones who were most strongly influenced by them. That's not to say people are brainwashed to go buy that product, but they show an unconscious preference for it. So when women are overwhelmingly being portrayed a certain way in media, why couldn't it have a similar biasing effect?

It's tempting to say "I play video games and they haven't made me sexist!" For one, if you're not sexist why are you dismissing off hand the masses of women explaining that female portrayal in video games often makes them feel uncomfortable and excluded. And two, if you were being influenced, what makes you think you would even realise? Think you have some amazing insight the participants in that study didn't?

 

[Calbeck]

I'd think it obvious: if millions of gamers are, collectively or individually, influenced by these games to the point it can reasonably be said to affect their behavior, then we would be seeing THOUSANDS of Columbines and Jack Thompson would have been 100% correct.

Ad absurdum, ad nauseum.

 

[Erttheking]

I'm pretty sure they did a study on advertisements where they found the people who believed they were not affected by advertisements were the ones who were most strongly influenced by them. That's not to say people are brainwashed to go buy that product, but they show an unconscious preference for it. So when women are overwhelmingly being portrayed a certain way in media, why couldn't it have a similar biasing effect?

It's tempting to say "I play video games and they haven't made me sexist!" For one, if you're not sexist why are you dismissing off hand the masses of women explaining that female portrayal in video games often makes them feel uncomfortable and excluded. And two, if you were being influenced, what makes you think you would even realise? Think you have some amazing insight the participants in that study didn't?

Yeah, I have to say I fall into this mindset. Heck, even I get uncomfortable when I try really REALLY hard to think of female characters that aren't conventionally pretty, that look battle hardened, muscular, etc, and I come up with nothing.

 

[Skatologist]

Okay, let's be honest. A lot of people do not watch the news or even attempt trying to. Many get their opinions from books, television, or other media. One case this seems most prevalent today is really the common perception of trans people and that they are essentially gay or drag kings/queens that went too far or any other list of things that are simply untrue, but these people will still hold onto these beliefs because a piece of media displayed it to them in such a fashion. Could this apply to a big a group as women or men? I'm unsure, but I would expect maybe it is possible under some circumstances and if certain ideas aren't conditioned or unconditioned properly.

I agree with what L0GIC BOMB had essentially said, sexism can not equate to violence, people know what violence is almost all the time, views on what is and what is not violence do not change generally, but it may become more permissible to certain individuals or in certain situations depending on cultural context. I don't think sexism is like that necessarily. Sure what is and is not permissible can change, but the other points don't seem to apply, at least not to the same extent.

I'd say it would be difficult to calculate influence in perception of groups. If someone finds perhaps a form of study or experiment that can perhaps shed some light on how something like media influence on groups, I'd appreciate it.

I don't see how we can't be influenced by the media we consume....that doesn't mean we do exactly what we do in what we watch but...still

Exactly, I may have never acted upon anything media had necessarily "taught" me, but I can still recognize it basically taught me wrong about a whole list of groups when I actually studied what these groups actually were and believed, a task I don't think everyone necessarily does.

I mean go back to that old chestnut of "niceguys" (sorry) how many people in that discussion cite the common narrative of "mild mannered nice guy triumphing over all and getting the girl" and the fact that him doggedly persuing her is seen as endearing OR all those shows in which our everyman protagonist pines after a girl who's only defining charachteristic is "pretty and nice" I mean you can't deny you've seen that pop up a lot

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?! WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE MENZ WHOSE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC IS BEING STRONG, HANDSOME, AND MUSCULAR?! WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE NONEXISTENT STORIES THAT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN IN THE LAST 10 YEARS WITH THOSE KINDS OF MENZ?! [footnote] Teasing you, but I'm guessing the next person who responds to you will not. "What about the men" always gets brought up when sexism or feminism is ever brought up. Also, if that kind of person is reading this and are using a similar argument, cite. Cite sources, a debate can be made if something is sexist or not against men. [/footnote]

 

[Belaam]

I think the whole concept is backwards. Sexist tropes exist in games because sexist tropes exist in real life. Assassin's Creed: Unity not having female PCs is not going to make you sexist. But if you are already steeped in a sexist patriarchal world view where women aren't as good as men, or at least where "men are more equal that women", then you're either not going to care that Unity's title is deeply ironic or you're going to freak out because people talking about it may be pointing out the sexism in your actual, real world life.

 

[Maksim_v1legacy]

It's understandable to want to pathologize the kind of content you personally find distasteful but that doesn't make it true.

Feminists have tried the same thing with pornography and that failed miserably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminists_Fighting_Pornography#Congressional_testimony

It's simply drawing a conclusion, then finding evidence to fit that conclusion.

 

[Vault101]

] BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?! WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE MENZ WHOSE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC IS BEING STRONG, HANDSOME, AND MUSCULAR?! WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE NONEXISTENT STORIES THAT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN IN THE LAST 10 YEARS WITH THOSE KINDS OF MENZ?!

[b/]BECAUSE IF YOU ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT IT MEDIA IS ACTUALLY SEXIST AGAINST MEN BECAUSE OF CLEANING ADVERTISMENTS AND DUMB SITCOMS[/b]

bleegghhh I hope we didn't kick a hornets nest...

Yeah, I have to say I fall into this mindset. Heck, even I get uncomfortable when I try really REALLY hard to think of female characters that aren't conventionally pretty, that look battle hardened, muscular, etc, and I come up with nothing.

"battle hardened" would be slightly more than a waif like figure with a really intense look on her face with a few strategically placed scuff marks and cuts on her face...ala Rita from Edge of Tomorrow [sub/]I admit though I love Edge of tomorrow...and her [strike/] in the gayest way possible[/S][/sub]

It's tempting to say "I play video games and they haven't made me sexist!" For one, if you're not sexist why are you dismissing off hand the masses of women explaining that female portrayal in video games often makes them feel uncomfortable and excluded.

huh...its like to took several thread posts and condensed them down into one succinct point that gets the message across

kudos that was great

 

[Skatologist]

bleegghhh I hope we didn't kick a hornets nest...

One of us, if not both of us, are going to get modded, PMed, or called out on this, or some combination of the 3. All I can say is "Come at me bro", because as far as I am concerned the "What about the menz?!" argument kills any meaningful discussion on sexism in order for people to silence it . Are there some sexist things in media and society at large aimed at men? Yes. Do people using that argument give good examples and use that argument to try and find a way we can combat these things? As far as I am aware, no, it's to mute and most examples are BS.

 

[Vault101]

One of us, if not both of us, are going to get modded, PMed,.

nah I only ever got one negative PM and it wasn't even good

 

[Skatologist]

nah I only ever got one negative PM and it wasn't even good

Well of course it wasn't "good", it was a "negative PM".

 

[Colour Scientist]

All I can say is "Come at me bro", because as far as I am concerned the "What about the menz?!" argument kills any meaningful discussion on sexism in order for people to silence it

Attacking people pre-emptively for making the argument is kind of silly though. Like you said, it kills any meaningful discussion on sexism and feminism but then you brought it up, you know? You're almost goading people who legitimately think like that into posting.I mean, I find it as annoying as the next person when someone tries to derail a discussion by pulling the "what about the men" card but the way you brought it up does seem a little bit dismissive.

Like, I hate it when people who are anti-feminism attack phantom feminists who say they hate all men in threads where there aren't examples of any. This seems a little reminiscent of that.

I know you were just joking around, I'm not trying to pick on you or tell you how to post, I just don't think opening the thread with that kind of tone is going to foster any decent discussion.

 

[VanQ]

I used to think that playing a game about being an Orc Warlock that slaughters people/bears/dragons didn't effect me in real life. But I recently learned that the more I believe that I don't slaughter people/bears/dragons in real life because I do so in the game, the more likely I am to actually slaughter people/bears/dragons in real life. Apparently I'm a badass Orc Warlock genocidal maniac and dragon killer and bear mauler and I don't even realize it.

In short, the more you believe that you aren't a murderer for murdering people in games, the more likely you are to be a murderer.

 

[Colour Scientist]

I used to think that playing a game about being an Orc Warlock that slaughters people/bears/dragons didn't effect me in real life. But I recently learned that the more I believe that I don't slaughter people/bears/dragons in real life because I do so in the game, the more likely I am to actually slaughter people/bears/dragons in real life. Apparently I'm a badass Orc Warlock genocidal maniac and dragon killer and bear mauler and I don't even realize it.

In short, the more you believe that you aren't a murderer for murdering people in games, the more likely you are to be a murderer.

Way to miss the subtleties of the argument.

Games don't exist in a vacuum. They can play a role in reinforcing certain gender stereotypes that are already exist within society.

It's not like one game is going to magically transform you into a raging sexist, it's just that they can, unconsciously or otherwise, help to reinforce or reiterate harmful or problematic cultural norms, in my opinion.

 

[Vault101]

Like, I hate it when people who are anti-feminism attack phantom feminists who say they hate all men in threads where there aren't examples of any. This seems a little reminiscent of that.
.

except you know....we've actually seen this...time and time again....

yes I know, I get your point...you don't make friends with salad...or something...

Well of course it wasn't "good", it was a "negative PM".

yeah but it wasn't crazy or angry or anything...just kinda incohearant