Does sexist tropes in video games influence behavior? Violence =/= Sexism?

[Corran006]

The issue if often strawmanned as "You play a sexist/violent game, it makes you a rapist", which is of course absurd.

However, people are greatly influenced by the culture and society they live in. Video games are part of that, along with eveyr other form of entertainment. On the whole, a much smaller part than say, movies, but it's still there. People pick up lots of messages without realising it, especially if lots of things are repeating the same message. Not just the sort of people that claim they know it all because they watch movies or play games, this sort of thing happens to everyone to some extent.

To put it another way, Coke, for example, spends lots of money on advertising and product placement, to get people to want to drink (and thus buy) more Coke. Watching an ad for Coke won't automatically make you go out and buy Coke. A (successful) ad campaign will result in more people buying Coke, though.

Not a Rapist but would it cause someone to sent hate and death threats? or to hate woman in general?

 

[Deadcyde]

I don't think violence in video games desensitizes people to violence. Just to fantasy violence.

Does it though? I mean if they were that sensitive to it then when they played the game they would be so horrified as to never play it again.

Honestly I think people are capable of establishing the difference between reality and fantasy unless they have an condition preventing that. So saying fantasy defines reality is about as fruitful as saying opinion does. It might be an allegory for a perspective of reality, but reality it is not.

 

[Karadalis]

The issue if often strawmanned as "You play a sexist/violent game, it makes you a rapist", which is of course absurd.

However, people are greatly influenced by the culture and society they live in. Video games are part of that, along with eveyr other form of entertainment. On the whole, a much smaller part than say, movies, but it's still there. People pick up lots of messages without realising it, especially if lots of things are repeating the same message. Not just the sort of people that claim they know it all because they watch movies or play games, this sort of thing happens to everyone to some extent.

To put it another way, Coke, for example, spends lots of money on advertising and product placement, to get people to want to drink (and thus buy) more Coke. Watching an ad for Coke won't automatically make you go out and buy Coke. A (successful) ad campaign will result in more people buying Coke, though.

Not a Rapist but would it cause someone to sent hate and death threats? or to hate woman in general?

No... that is what anonymity does.

How much do you bet if everyone had to give out their real name and adress... and i mean everyone... you would see all these threats disapear in a cloud of smoke?

Assholes are assholes. They existed before games came around. Difference now is that they have the internet to hide behind. Sadly its something we will have to accept. Not to condone but no one whos not an admin or a mod really can do anything about trolls being trolls.

I don't think violence in video games desensitizes people to violence. Just to fantasy violence.

Does it though? I mean if they were that sensitive to it then when they played the game they would be so horrified as to never play it again.

Honestly I think people are capable of establishing the difference between reality and fantasy unless they have an condition preventing that. So saying fantasy defines reality is about as fruitful as saying opinion does. It might be an allegory for a perspective of reality, but reality it is not.

It doesnt really desensitise people.

Im the best example. I can rip your spine out in mortal combat and not blink.

I see someone on TV getting an injection with a needle, or see how a dog gets operated on at the animal doc and i get squeemish...

I see people getting beaten up on security cam footage and i shake my head and get angry. I dont just shrug and go "eh.. who cares"

By the way... i heard that listening to the beatles will make you stupid and that heavy metall turns people into criminal bikers.

Oh.. and dont forget all the ultra violent Tom and jerry cartoons... yeah those sure desensitized their audience for violence back in the day.

Face it... every new medium of entertainment had to deal with the "THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!" crowd and the same accusations that gaming has to face now are the very same movies, cartoons, anime, music and co had to face each time something new came around.

But each time something new came around people realized that the accusations pointed towards the old stuff where pure BS.

How long i wonder will it take till the first people claim that VR technology will make you loose contact to reality?

 

[Thaluikhain]

If videogames are just one of the thousands of factors that influence society, why are they being singled out?

I don't think they are. You have the same concerns being raised over music (Blurred Lines comes to mind), advertsiing (Dolce and Gabbana rape ads, for example), depictions of women in movies etc

In a few weeks it will be Halloween, and there will be much talk about the costumes sold for women and girls.

And why are games being lambasted for influencing sexist attitudes when the equivalent argument about violence has been thoroughly debunked?

Has it?

As far as I can see there's nothing to support the notion that depictions of women or the existence of tropes in games has the capability to significantly alter the player's attitudes to women in real life.

Again, attitudes are affected by culture, and videogames are part of that. Stories have played a part in shaping cultures for millennia.

For videogames therefore not to have any affect on attitudes, at least one one of the above must be wrong.

Not a Rapist but would it cause someone to sent hate and death threats? or to hate woman in general?

Cause? As in you look at one individual and say what the effect on them would be? No.

But, again, if you tell enough people to drink more Coke, some of them will drink more Coke. Tell enough people that rape and death threats aren't that bad, there will be more of them. Hell, tell enough people that they are entitled to sex, and there will be more rapes.

 

[Karadalis]

Hell, tell enough people that they are entitled to sex, and there will be more rapes.

Rape is most often not really about the sexual act, but the power over the victim one holds and the sheer terror it inflicts. Also feeling entitled to sex is not the reason why people get raped at all.

(However in the case of pedophiles it is about the sex, but thats a whole different can of worms)

The best example would be that rich boy nutcase that gunned down people because he felt entitled to stuff.

However he didnt went out and raped a girl.

Also:

Please point to the games that say rape is okay, or that mysoginy is okay. If mysoginistic tendencies in a game exist it is allways used as a negative example, something NOT to do.

I have yet to encounter a game that actually promotes these ideas as a positive.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Rape is most often not really about the sexual act, but the power over the victim one holds and the sheer terror it inflicts. Also feeling entitled to sex is not the reason why people get raped at all.

Agree with the first, not so much the second.

By way of example, marital rape wasn't a crime in all states of the US until 1993. Up til them, it was legal for a man to have sex with his wife if she didn't want it, because they were married. He was entitled to that, her consent was assumed.

Likewise, there are any number of surveys in which people (if you don't use the word rape) will say that a man is owed sex under certain circumstances.

Now, in both those cases, it's not that they are entitled to rape, but that, because they are entitled to sex, it doesn't count as rape.

Please point to the games that say rape is okay, or that mysoginy is okay. If mysoginistic tendencies in a game exist it is allways used as a negative example, something NOT to do.

I have yet to encounter a game that actually promotes these ideas as a positive.

Games that recognise they are promoting misogyny would be rare (not non-existent though). Games that promote misogyny (in various forms), presumably without the people involved thinking about it too much, really aren't. The Duke Nukem games, for example, I doubt many people sat around saying "Hey, this game needs more misogyny". Rather they'd be dreaming up lots of macho bullshit to stick in, and didn't pay attention to any misogyny.

 

[Netrigan]

I've never once seen a critical piece run on her on this site. In fact, I've seen the complete opposite: tons and TONS of gushing, unilateral support of her work, method and opinions.
(and I don't mean "critical" to be "scathing" or "in stark opposition to", I mean in terms of neutral or authoritative analysis; y'know, real journalism?)

The closest I've seen to a gushing piece is MovieBob's Most Dangerous Woman piece which is mostly how she's not considered even the slightest bit controversial in the real world.

No Right Answer did a "meh, whatever" video on her. Jim Sterling had the same kind of reaction in one of his videos before going after the insane over-reaction from gamers over what is essentially a very mild rebuke from a Feminist in Academia. The only thing even mildly notable about these videos that might possibly require an "authoritative analysis" is the novelty of it being the first one.

Really, honestly, there's not much to comment on here. She's thus far pointed out a few trends in gaming which exist. Whether you believe this to be a problem or not is the realm of the Op/Ed piece and some folks, usually people who have been talking about similar issues for several years, have opted to comment on her in the positive. The folks who haven't commented very much on these sorts of issues didn't really bother except in passing.

Really, the only reason to comment on the main thrust of her videos if you strongly agree or disagree, neither of which could be considered "neutral", which is why commentary is kept apart from the News because it's held to a very different journalistic standard, where strong opinion and strong emotions are frequently encouraged... it should be fair in the sense that it doesn't misrepresent basic facts, but it's going to be about someone standing up on their Bully Pulpit and saying, "you guys, no you guys over there. Your opinion is wrong and here's why."

Which leaves the Thunderb00t style of discussion in which you focus on a bad example or unsupportable observation and devote a bunch of time and effort quibbling over examples without actually saying anything about her main point. That she may have misrepresented Hitman: Absolution (and let's be clear, we're talking about rushing to the defense of a game we Gamers were happy to put in a sack and beat with a stick over being adolescently sexist in regards to the Fetish Nuns) doesn't actually change much in regards to her over-all discussion about how certain video games use sex workers as decoration. Unless IO Interactive publicly complained about it, it doesn't really rise to the level of story. STOP THE PRESSES, someone was wrong on the Internet.

It really comes down to threat-assessment. Anita Sarkeesian is not a threat. She's just an incontrovertible part of the mainstream, a mainstream which Gamers have been clamoring to be a part of for ages. She hasn't really attacked video games; she's just pointed out some stuff she thinks is wrong and needs seeing to. She's not doing anything Gamers haven't been doing for ages. The industry isn't running scared from her observations (some of the companies have used her to score some publicity by demonstrating they didn't need her to tell them to move away from certain elements). It's really only just a sub-set of fandom which seems to think she's worth panicking over, as if she's some Jack Thompson sized threat come to take our video games away.

Wait until we get one of the bomb-throwers. Maybe Spike Lee is a gamer. I'm sure he has plenty of WTF opinions he'd love to share.

 

[Batou667]

I don't think they are. You have the same concerns being raised over music (Blurred Lines comes to mind), advertsiing (Dolce and Gabbana rape ads, for example), depictions of women in movies etc

In a few weeks it will be Halloween, and there will be much talk about the costumes sold for women and girls.

Yeah, fair enough. Viewed as part of the progressive / feminist critique of wider culture, the attack on sex in games is pretty consistent.

And why are games being lambasted for influencing sexist attitudes when the equivalent argument about violence has been thoroughly debunked?

Has it?

I'd say so, at least de facto. Certainly there were never any convincing arguments made, no studies established a link, and the argument itself has been basically abandoned by its proponents (for now, at least).

Again, attitudes are affected by culture, and videogames are part of that. Stories have played a part in shaping cultures for millennia.

For videogames therefore not to have any affect on attitudes, at least one one of the above must be wrong.

Yes, but at the risk of repeating myself, we know that people (especially adults, who are the ones playing these M and 15+/18+ rated games that are constantly brought up as exemplars) generally already have a robust schema of norms and morality; they're able to contextualise fictional depictions of people and situations. If it wasn't for this fact, it'd be outright immoral to produce violent games, horror movies or pornography.

The concept that media affects people's attitudes to some degree is commonsense. The idea that games will negatively influence people to the degree that it represents a pressing concern worth fighting against is, however, a remarkable claim that would require remarkable evidence. And AFAIK no evidence that even suggests a believable link has ever been presented. It's just empty speculation.

Until the claims are backed up with evidence, I'm going to carry on dismissing them as unsubstantiated scaremongering with undertones of moralising.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yes, but at the risk of repeating myself, we know that people (especially adults, who are the ones playing these M and 15+/18+ rated games that are constantly brought up as exemplars) generally already have a robust schema of norms and morality; they're able to contextualise fictional depictions of people and situations. If it wasn't for this fact, it'd be outright immoral to produce violent games, horror movies or pornography.

I'd disagree with that. If nothing else, that'd put rabble rousers and proselytisers out of a job.

The concept that media affects people's attitudes to some degree is commonsense. The idea that games will negatively influence people to the degree that it represents a pressing concern worth fighting against is, however, a remarkable claim that would require remarkable evidence.

Does that not depend on what you happen to consider a pressing concern, though?

 

[Karadalis]

Agree with the first, not so much the second.

By way of example, marital rape wasn't a crime in all states of the US until 1993. Up til them, it was legal for a man to have sex with his wife if she didn't want it, because they were married. He was entitled to that, her consent was assumed.

Likewise, there are any number of surveys in which people (if you don't use the word rape) will say that a man is owed sex under certain circumstances.

Now, in both those cases, it's not that they are entitled to rape, but that, because they are entitled to sex, it doesn't count as rape.

Games that recognise they are promoting misogyny would be rare (not non-existent though). Games that promote misogyny (in various forms), presumably without the people involved thinking about it too much, really aren't. The Duke Nukem games, for example, I doubt many people sat around saying "Hey, this game needs more misogyny". Rather they'd be dreaming up lots of macho bullshit to stick in, and didn't pay attention to any misogyny.

That law didnt only existed in the US of A and it has been done with for good reason. Also that law existed in times where videogames did not existed so i dont see the connection here.

Nor do i see the connection between that law and any other method of entertainment like movies or books. So in truth this had nothing to do with anything but old cultural beliefs that things had to be that way.

Those dont exist today anymore.(or should i say you wont find any majority for something like this anymore that would prompt a law change)

Furthermore the "entitlement" to sex is not tought by games. Its passed down by fathers, who got that worldview from their fathers and so on and so forth. Then theres alot of gang crime going on where you dont want to look "weak" infront of your gang and thus might "smack the ***** around" if she doesnt pay you enough "respect"

All these examples have absolutely nothing to do with the entertainment industry but with that persons upbringing and suroundings.

Sports jocks in the US for example are tought that they can get away with ANYTHING aslong as they are the stars of their college football team. Im not kidding... there was a case where a girl commited suicide after being raped by a bunch of sports jocks and the media was talking about "those poor kids whos lives where ruined" and they sure as hell werent talking about the victim here.

And again that had nothing to do with games or any other entertainment media. It has all to do with people sending those kids the message that they can get away with anything. A game that lets you get away with stuff on the other hand has no influence on your decisions in Real live because you brain is quite capable of knowing that whats going on in the game is fake.

However if you Coach tells you that he will "overlook" you beating and bullying the nerds at school because youre the only good quarterback they have and they want to win the next big tournament you where just thought that its okay to do these things.

See the difference?

As for duke nukem... if you didnt get the obvious joke and really thing that duke nukem made people macho you should check out when it was released.

Back then only nerds and geeks played video games and those are usually not your top suspects for rape or violence. Also aslong as it stays in peoples no one has any business telling people whats what.

Thinking or fantasizing about something is not a crime and that is something people have to realize. You nor anyone else is allowed to point at people and tell them they are at the border of being criminals because those "games" have a negative influence on them even thought crime rates and violence rates have been going DOWN for the last 10 years.

So no... the argument that games have a negative influence on people will allways, ALLWAYS fall flat on its nose when faced with the actual crime statistics.

Again and i cant say it enough:

Its Real people who teach real people how to behave and act in real live.

Fiction at best can only give inspiration for what isnt possible right now. Like Star trek having "mobile phones" before that was even possible.

Remember when all the news media claimed that DnD lead to satanism in the 80s?

There where entire MOVIES claiming that role playing made people go gaga... (was it spoony or nostalgia critic who riffed that movie?)

They used the same logic people who claim games have that sort of influence on people use.

And yet... nothing happened... we didnt saw a sudden surge of satanism. We didnt saw a raise in crimes with satanism as a background. Hell the influence of DnD was non existant in any measurable way or form.

Nowadays its just seen as an obscure hobby at worst. No one cares of the possible "negative influences" of DnD on teenagers nowadays.

Maybe these pseudo scientific nonsense claims where just that in the end... false accusations out of shakely founded fears of the unknown.

 

[andago]

Completely anecdotal, but to those using the comparison of influences in other media, such as advertising campaigns, does anyone remember the original Tango advertisement in the UK that was quickly withdrawn because of the many incidents caused by imitation?


Also having the accolade as one of the highest profile example of happy slapping that was all the rage at the turn of the millenium in the UK.

 

[Karadalis]

Completely anecdotal, but to those using the comparison of influences in other media, such as advertising campaigns, does anyone remember the original Tango advertisement in the UK that was quickly withdrawn because of the many incidents caused by imitation?


Also having the accolade as one of the highest profile example of happy slapping that was all the rage at the turn of the millenium in the UK.

*facepalm*

It was a stupid idea, picked up by drunken teenagers and morons who thought it was funny to do something like this.

And honestly? The UK has a real problem with drunken teens and tweens... as in a serious problem. No wonder they thought this was funny shit.

 

[Batou667]

The concept that media affects people's attitudes to some degree is commonsense. The idea that games will negatively influence people to the degree that it represents a pressing concern worth fighting against is, however, a remarkable claim that would require remarkable evidence.

Does that not depend on what you happen to consider a pressing concern, though?

Some people consider it a pressing matter to abolish gay marriage because they think it results in earthquakes, hurricanes and flooding.

Not all opinions are created equal. The good ones are usually backed up with facts.

Let me level with you here: I think the allegations about the effects of sexist/sexual content in games is an attempt by certain progressive and feminist groups to give their opinions about gaming some sorely-lacking factual credentials. Now, they haven't yet demonstrated their claims are true, but they seem to think that a) repeating the claim and b) switching the onus of proof onto their opposition is much the same thing.

This annoys me for two reasons. First, for the reasons I've been banging on about for the last half dozen posts: it's unsubstantiated speculation and fear-mongering, and very poor practice for a group(s) that presumably want(s) to be taken seriously. And secondly, because it's unnecessary. If what these groups really want to say is "We're disappointed by the lack of minority protagonists in games, could we have some please" or "I'm a female gamer and I'm turned off by the outfit choices available to my avatar" then great, those are legitimate points for them to bring up as gamers and part of the demographic that games companies will want to cater for. The arguments work just fine by themselves, without having to make up white lies to support their case or claim a moral high ground over their opposition. An appeal for greater diversity can be achieved without framing the issue as an "us against them" sectarian squabble.

 

[andago]

*facepalm*

It was a stupid idea, picked up by drunken teenagers and morons who thought it was funny to do something like this.

And honestly? The UK has a real problem with drunken teens and tweens... as in a serious problem. No wonder they thought this was funny shit.

Actually 2 points on this:

Firstly that the only direct consequences was in young kids in school imitating it, causing incidents of deafening and broken jaws.

Secondly, with regards to happy slapping, isn't that exactly the point? It's not that the advert made a whole generation of people suddenly go out and film themselves slapping people, it's that the idea of slapping someone on film was presented in a humourous manner and backed by a major brand label that possibly insinuated itself into a social spectrum that already had tendencies to do stupid things like this.

We're not talking about direct influences; action A in media directly causes action A to be performed, we're talking about social acceptance of practices as portrayed by media and the legitimising of similar attitudes; action A in media helps form part of a social environment where action A is acceptable.

Anyway, like i said that was kind of an anecdotal example that I happened to remember from when I was younger.

 

[INH5]

If videogames are just one of the thousands of factors that influence society, why are they being singled out?

I don't think they are. You have the same concerns being raised over music (Blurred Lines comes to mind), advertsiing (Dolce and Gabbana rape ads, for example), depictions of women in movies etc

In a few weeks it will be Halloween, and there will be much talk about the costumes sold for women and girls.

Personally, I think those concerns are just as baseless as Anita's. Blurred Lines is very clearly about a (admittedly somewhat sleazy) guy who is trying to sweet talk a girl in a club. Seriously, there's no way that "come on, get at me!" can be interpreted as anything but encouraging the other person to make a move. Even if it wasn't, the fact that most people have to have the rape interpretation explained to them before they notice it means that detractors are basically arguing for subliminal influences ala backmasking, which have been pretty conclusively proven to not exist.

The "victims" in the Dolce and Gabbana ads are very clearly interested in what is about to take place, and the fact that they are read that way says a lot more about the interpreters than the people making those ads. If the genders were reversed, they would basically be Axe ads.

As for Halloween costumes, I notice that none of those detractors ever seem to consider that companies wouldn't be making and selling those sorts of costumes if there wasn't a big market for them. I don't have any personal experience myself, but I would guess that the the best explanation is from Mean Girls: "Halloween is the one night a year when girls can dress like a total slut and no other girls can say anything about it."

Even leaving all that aside, the evidence for them having negative effects on society is exactly the same as violent video games having negative effects on society: zero.

But you're definitely right that Anita's critiques are part of a larger political and social movement. It seems that these days, the new puritans are on the left side of the political spectrum.

 

[carnex]

OK, I have read some of the posts here, not many, but some have said this before. And this is crucial piece of info. There isn't any research that would suggest that games influence people to act sexually in inappropriate manner. Absolutely none. Every piece I have found on the mater is pure speculation or opinion piece. Even research papers that have some research don have only some tangential connection to this idea and even then they are labeled inconclusive.

If you are claiming that games influence people in such manner, please find some proof. Until then, yes it's Jack Thompson all over again. The fact that it feels right doesn't make it right or gays would still be in ghettos in many parts of even western world.

 

[Mrkillhappy]

OK, I have read some of the posts here, not many, but some have said this before. And this is crucial piece of info. There isn't any research that would suggest that games influence people to act sexually in inappropriate manner. Absolutely none. Every piece I have found on the mater is pure speculation or opinion piece. Even research papers that have some research don have only some tangential connection to this idea and even then they are labeled inconclusive.

If you are claiming that games influence people in such manner, please find some proof. Until then, yes it's Jack Thompson all over again. The fact that it feels right doesn't make it right or gays would still be in ghettos in many parts of even western world.

I was about to post this very statement so good thing I decided to read through the thread before posting so thank you carnex. Seriously people with out a study and solid scientific evidence all we can do is merely speculate which makes us no more credible then people like Jack Thompson. I understand we all have opinions on this & feel the need to voice our concerns but please don't treat them as objective fact but only as a hypothesis.

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

No, they do not. We need to stop blaming entertainment for the shitty behavior.