Dominion sues Rudy Giuliani for defamation

Houseman

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There are a lot more checks and balances, though, aren't there? Like Ms. Carone, who claims an extra 30,000 ballots were scanned through. And yet when queried why the votes matched the poll book tallies, could merely claim, apropos of nothing, that they fixed the poll book. It doesn't matter how genuinely concerned witnesses sounded, or what their perceptions were: without corroborating evidence it's just so much hot air.
And a forensic investigation would reveal why the votes matched the poll book tallies, and put this matter to bed once and for all.
But that has not been done. Nobody did anything. And that's why people are angry. They heard the testimony from her and others, saw that nothing was done about it, and were righteously outraged.

I thought old housey was banned from his fraud conspiracy argument around here?
I'm responding to the claim "And there isn't anything that can give them that security that it's never rigged" with "this is what can give them that security", and that led us to go over what was and wasn't done, and whether or not it should be viewed as sufficient. I'm not spreading any conspiracy, just showing empathy.

Nick's statement was vague, however. Can we discuss bigfoot? UFOs?
 

Elijin

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Let's be real, old man houseman went quiet for a week or two and let the heat blow over. Now he's started making insinuations about this in every thread he can find a tenous link to court cases or legal proceedings.

Hoping that with time, the warning faded? Or banking on Nick just not checking in often?
 

Houseman

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If you feel that I'm doing anything against the rules, report me.
 

Avnger

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I'm not spreading any conspiracy, just showing empathy.
No, you're not. You're, at best, enabling and, at worst, spreading the conspiracy hoping no one sees through your rather meagre disguise.

Real empathy would be helping those who believe in this conspiracy come back to reality with the rest of us. It would be providing education on how they're wrong and giving them training in the critical thinking skills necessary to not fall back into such delusion.
 

Generals

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Yes, I watched dozens of hours of hearings, and dozens of witnesses giving testimony about how they were obstructed from doing their jobs, their jobs as the "checks and balances" you talked about. The observers, challengers, and workers, and nothing came of it. I think Arizona subpoenaed the ballots and wanted them to be forensically audited by Jovan Pulizer, but some other authority is currently blocking him from doing that.

I see these people who I watched testify, democrats, republicans, and independents, not as grifters or charlatans, but real people with genuine concerns.

Just like when someone is killed by the cops, their family's grievances don't go away just because a judge says "not guilty", or rules that something isn't admissible in court on a technicality.
No you're not. You only see the people who spread the conspiracy theories as real people with genuine concerns. All those who have put hours and hours of efforts to ensure the elections went smoothly and than ended being harassed and threatened were of no concern to you.

And the difference with the people being killed by cops is that these cases involve corpses. Here we don't even know if the person supposedly killed ever existed.
 

SilentPony

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Real empathy would be helping those who believe in this conspiracy come back to reality with the rest of us. It would be providing education on how they're wrong and giving them training in the critical thinking skills necessary to not fall back into such delusion.
Yeah sure, but the "empathy" line was a straight up lie. He's on record as being uneducated on American politics and law, doesn't fact check, doesn't check sources, and gets his talking points from a donaldtrump like subreddit site. That anyone believes he still posts in the politics threads in good faith is beyond me.
 

Houseman

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Is the irony lost on you?
"No, you're not showing empathy and understanding! Let me just call you and everyone who disagrees with me a liar! That's REAL empathy!"
 

SilentPony

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Is the irony lost on you?
"No, you're not showing empathy and understanding! Let me just call you and everyone who disagrees with me a liar! That's REAL empathy!"
There's no irony here. I don't empathize with you or your beliefs anymore than I do with flat eathers or moon landing deniers. Two sides of a debate don't have two equally compelling arguments. That storks deliver babies is not a competing theory in medical school.
You're entitled to your own opinion, that's not in question. You are not entitled to your own facts, reality, nor is anyone obligated to validate your feelings, nor empathize with them.
 

Houseman

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I don't empathize with you or your beliefs
You don't have to. I'm not (or at least I wasn't), the subject of discussion. The subject we're supposed to be discussing are the REAL PEOPLE with legitimate grievances who stood in front of congressmen and senators to testify about their doubts in this recent election.

Those people and their legitimate grievances, I would think, contributed THE MOST to the storming of the capitol.
Dismissing them all as liars, drunks, etc., instead of taking them seriously and helping them to be assured that the elections were fair, caused them to lose faith in the democratic process and take matters in their own hands.

So it's not me you have to worry about, it's them.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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The subject we're supposed to be discussing are the REAL PEOPLE with legitimate grievances who stood in front of congressmen and senators to testify about their doubts in this recent election.
Those "grievances" were dismissed in due process by other REAL PEOPLE who were equally concerned with the matter. That you or anybody else is still hung up about it means nothing.
 

SilentPony

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You don't have to. I'm not (or at least I wasn't), the subject of discussion. The subject we're supposed to be discussing are the REAL PEOPLE with legitimate grievances who stood in front of congressmen and senators to testify about their doubts in this recent election.
They do not have and never had "legitimate grievances" anymore than flat earthers do. This is the whole "not obligated to validate your feelings" part. It doesn't matter if they truly in their heart of hearts believe the election was stolen, they're wrong. And reality doesn't need their approval, and neither do facts. That's the beauty about facts; they're true regardless if you know them or not.
People think they have legitimate grievances about the election. Good, great, meaningless. People had "legitimate grievances" when Galileo said the sun was the center of the solar system. People had "legitimate grievances" when African Americans were allowed to vote, and go to school.
That's the side of history election fraud claimers are on. They'll be right on the dunce shelf of history alongside segregationists and geocentrists.
 
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Houseman

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Those "grievances" were dismissed in due process by other REAL PEOPLE who were equally concerned with the matter.
They do not have and never had "legitimate grievances" anymore than flat earthers do.
Legitimate grievances are dismissed in due process by REAL PEOPLE all the time. For example, Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, Breonna Taylor...
Should the people who suffered the loss of these people just say "oh well, I guess I shouldn't have a grievance after all" and go on with their lives?
They should just stop being "hung up" on these injustices, right?

Their grievances aren't legitimate, they're simply "wrong" in the face of "facts" as SilentPony put it. They're on the wrong side of history.
Those months-long BLM protests where over a dozen were killed, buildings were burned, and statues were toppled were just people fighting against reality.
 
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SilentPony

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Legitimate grievances are dismissed in due process by REAL PEOPLE all the time. For example, Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, Breonna Taylor...
Should the people who suffered the loss of these people just say "oh well, I guess I shouldn't have a grievance after all" and go on with their lives?
They should just stop being "hung up" on these injustices, right?

Their grievances aren't legitimate, they're simply "wrong" in the face of "facts" as SilentPony put it. They're on the wrong side of history.
There is a difference between a legitimate grievance, and a "legitimate grievance". The one is quotes is the one the election deniers are using. The quotes are used to denote a lack of credibility and that what they are is in fact not that. The "legitimate grievances" of the election deniers were based on provable untrue assertions, made up graphs and numbers, purposefully edited information, and straight up lies. That is not a real legitimate grievance, that is a "legitimate grievance", ie the not real one.

Conflating Breonna Taylor's death with election conspiracies A. show someone's lack of education again, and B. is abhorrently disgusting because its comparing a real life tragedy and injustice, the death of Breonna Taylor, with a child like made up fantasy story about zombie Jews and Cubans haunting election machines. One really happened and is an injustice, the other exists only in the mind of the dunces of history.

Also I enjoyed your casual admittance that you view the deaths black people at the hands of police/whites as equally abhorrent as African Americans being allowed to vote, and as the Geocentric model being replaced with the heliocentic one. Just another thing to add to the list of "glowing recommendations"
 
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Houseman

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There is a difference between a legitimate grievance, and a "legitimate grievance".
It seems like the difference is whether or not you agree with the grievance.
So like I said, that's partisanship and lacking in empathy.
 

Agema

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And a forensic investigation would reveal why the votes matched the poll book tallies
A forensic investigation into why everything appears to be normal and proper? Are you serious?

Let's apply that principle more widely. You put $1 into a vending machine to buy a $1 drink, and the machine delivers you exactly the drink you requested and gives you no change. Well, you'd better call the maintenance company and get an engineer in just to test that the vending really is okay. Then you sit down to your muesli breakfast and upon inspection what you pour into your bowl appears to be oatmeal, raisins, hazelnuts and almonds. As this is exactly the ingredients listed on the muesli packet, you know what you have to do, which is send it to the laboratory for testing just to make absolutely sure. Then you take a phone call on your mobile, which appears to be from your mum's phone number, and the voice speaks with your mum's voice and asks / tells you things few people other than your mum would know, so obviously the first thing you do is contact the police to check if someone stole your mum's phone.

* * *

If a witness reported a man stabbing another in the stomach, and the police check on the victim find he has no wound and doesn't think he was assaulted, the conclusion is that the witness is wrong. And witnesses are often wrong about things they think they've witnessed. When, as per slurry word woman, they are not only contradicted by other evidence but also obviously erratic and partisan, giving them "the benefit of the doubt" is just irrationality, never mind - to repeat - the imbalance that it is necessarily denying the benefit of the doubt to those she is accusing.
 
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Agema

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So like I said, that's partisanship and lacking in empathy.
How much empathy are you showing people upset and angry at their election being derailed and their choice of president undermined by a lie? How much empathy are you showing the officials accused of cheating, or who have faced threats to lose their jobs and even their lives?

Fuck all.

So stow that vapid "partisan and lacking in empathy" bullshit now.
 
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Houseman

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A forensic investigation into why everything appears to be normal and proper? Are you serious?
Not into "why everything appears to be normal and proper", into why these witnesses (plural!) saw what they saw, and yet, the books matched.

How much empathy are you showing people upset and angry at their election being derailed and their choice of president undermined by a lie?
That's who I'm showing empathy for, the people upset and angry at their election being derailed and their choice of president undermined by a lie.

How much empathy are you showing the officials accused of cheating, or who even have faced threats to lose their jobs and even their lives?
None, because they have the power to turn that around by doing the audits. That's all anybody ever asked for.

People: "Hey, we thing something wrong happened, here's why we think that"
Official: "Nope, everything is fine."
People: "Prove it!"
Official: "Just take my word for it"

I have empathy for the powerless, not those who have the power to turn the situation around, but refuse to do so.

I do feel for the senators and congressman, and everybody in between, who were so rudely interrupted by the Capitol mob, though.
 
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