Don't let vocal minorties paint a picture of an entire fanbase

Thaluikhain

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EternallyBored said:
That's not to say that normal people in a group shouldn't try to control the crazies in it, certainly striving for an impossible goal is still much better than giving up, but it is folly to think that denouncing the crazies in your group is suddenly going to make the outsiders turn around and say, "yaknow? maybe these gamers are stand up folks afterall." The outside is too busy laughing at youtube videos of gamers having epic meltdowns and bitching over stupid things.
Certainly, there are large numbers of people who won't notice, but that's not to say nobody will.

For that matter, condemning the problem is necessary if you are going to get it under control.

Vegosiux said:
A condemnation of any group of people, especially a sub-group of your own group, implies "We are not like them. They are the problem, not us." The two concepts are kind of inseparable. Simply by vocally distancing yourself from a problematic group you're non-verbally relaying "I am not like that, just so you know."

So what's a gamer to do? Play their games and be chewed out for "not caring enough"? Or get vocal and come across as a separate breed of pretentious no-good airhead?
That's a false dichotomy there. They can always speak out against the people causing the problem. There's a massive difference between saying "I'm not like that" and "Hey you, don't be like that".
 

BreakfastMan

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Norithics said:
thaluikhain said:
I'm going to disagree with that. Now, very often, yes, it won't work, but that's not to say failure is guaranteed.
Alright, lemme turn it around on you, then. When has it worked?
Heavy Metal community. There was a time there that a lot of nazi, white-supremacists idiots where turning to black metal and such to help get across their stupidity and hate. Worse yet, because of influential artists like Varg Vikemes who shared their views, they were growing. But, a ton of prominent black metal artists condemned them heavily. Same with a lot of fans, and as such, they really only exist in the underground of that scene.
 

Epidemiix

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There still lies the problem with how people view things with only knowledge from outside sources. If I want to use a common example that people would find familiar, political groups has this problem. You hear usually about the loudest of that said group, and without fail the loudest is always the ones that say something idiotic. Example: x guy from y party brings up support for the kicking of puppies (something that should never be done ever). If this guy keeps going, people's view of what that party is for and about becomes...wonky.

Bringing it back to gaming, if all folks hear about are the people that make death threats for something silly in a game, then those folks are going to think that those people are the majority in that game community. Then if you label yourself as being apart of that game's community....yeah. False assumptions and generalizations on your character.

And this can probably be traced back to be more of a problem with society and the idea of labels, but that is a whole other topic. XD
 

Norithics

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BreakfastMan said:
Heavy Metal community. There was a time there that a lot of nazi, white-supremacists idiots where turning to black metal and such to help get across their stupidity and hate. Worse yet, because of influential artists like Varg Vikemes who shared their views, they were growing. But, a ton of prominent black metal artists condemned them heavily. Same with a lot of fans, and as such, they really only exist in the underground of that scene.
An interesting example! But the question is, was it the condemnation that improved the Metal scene's cred in the eyes of the layman? Because from what I've seen, it's either consistently panned (by conservative groups who don't understand that lyrics are often ironic in nature), consistently loved (throughout the ages, considering that most Slayer fans are like, your Mom's age by now), or most importantly, that nobody outside of the group even really knew this particular fact about it. Because out of all the condemnations I've seen against Metal, it's never been specifically racism, or even often that- it was just that it uses extreme imagery in general.
 

ZZoMBiE13

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HoneyVision said:
This is an issue of ignorance and it spans across thousands of issues across the globe. No matter what it is, there will always be someone who ruins the image of a particular group by being extreme and irrational. From technology to art to religion, there are ALWAYS people who make "the rest of us look bad". And of course, there are always people who will take that as the standard representative of that group, failing to look deeper than what meets the eye.

I have to deal with it everyday. I like fashion, which instantly makes people think that I'm snobby and judgmental because of what 'fashion people' say/have said in the past. I'm also Christian, which instantly equates to 'hypocritical bigot' these days, because of what people, such as the church, have said in the past.

The fault is of the person selfishly saying things without realizing what s/he is really undermining, and the people who are too lazy/stupid to realize that there is far more than what they hear from particular people.
If this were an 80s movie, I'd SO be giving you the slow clap right now.
 

Brown_Coat117

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The main problems with this and how it applies to PSN, Live and the internet in general is two fold.

First is the lack of real consequence. The worst that generally happens is that you might have you account banned. which there are easy ways around. In the digital age there are few practical ways to bring positive pressure to our problem children. Yes standing up to people being jerks will always be a correct course of action and may make a big positive difference for those being harassed but there is little we can do to "get it under control" as thaluikhain phrased it.

Another difficulty is those who use the problem children to confirm their own preconceived notions of how a certain group "is." It's easier to see yourself as better than a certain group if you only compare yourself to their worst.
 

Abomination

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Norithics said:
BreakfastMan said:
Heavy Metal community. There was a time there that a lot of nazi, white-supremacists idiots where turning to black metal and such to help get across their stupidity and hate. Worse yet, because of influential artists like Varg Vikemes who shared their views, they were growing. But, a ton of prominent black metal artists condemned them heavily. Same with a lot of fans, and as such, they really only exist in the underground of that scene.
An interesting example! But the question is, was it the condemnation that improved the Metal scene's cred in the eyes of the layman? Because from what I've seen, it's either consistently panned (by conservative groups who don't understand that lyrics are often ironic in nature), consistently loved (throughout the ages, considering that most Slayer fans are like, your Mom's age by now), or most importantly, that nobody outside of the group even really knew this particular fact about it. Because out of all the condemnations I've seen against Metal, it's never been specifically racism, or even often that- it was just that it uses extreme imagery in general.
To be fair, Metal fans have sort of established themselves now as "gentle giant" types. They might look fearsome but that look hides a higher proportion of honourable individuals.

It's thanks to people who identify as such being scornful of those who give them the bad name while also generally being awesome folks. Say what you will about Jack Black but the guy has been the poster boy for "Cool metal dude".
 

BreakfastMan

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Norithics said:
BreakfastMan said:
Heavy Metal community. There was a time there that a lot of nazi, white-supremacists idiots where turning to black metal and such to help get across their stupidity and hate. Worse yet, because of influential artists like Varg Vikemes who shared their views, they were growing. But, a ton of prominent black metal artists condemned them heavily. Same with a lot of fans, and as such, they really only exist in the underground of that scene.
An interesting example! But the question is, was it the condemnation that improved the Metal scene's cred in the eyes of the layman? Because from what I've seen, it's either consistently panned (by conservative groups who don't understand that lyrics are often ironic in nature), consistently loved (throughout the ages, considering that most Slayer fans are like, your Mom's age by now), or most importantly, that nobody outside of the group even really knew this particular fact about it. Because out of all the condemnations I've seen against Metal, it's never been specifically racism, or even often that- it was just that it uses extreme imagery in general.
And why do you think no one levels the criticism of racism against the metal community, eh? Why do you think this fact is fairly unknown (well, besides the fact that this happened well over a decade ago)? It seems to me that working to maintain a sub-culture/movements's social standing is just as important as trying to increase it...
 

Username Redacted

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I'm honestly not convinced it is a vocal minority in the case of Call of Duty.

The social norms for CoD fans really do seem to swing towards that sort of behaviour, and my inbox is pretty good evidence that this is, in fact, my experience.

I understand that "people I've encountered" is a flawed sample, but I've really seen nothing but evidence to support this belief.

Also, we usually don't know what's going on with developers. We've found out recently a couple people we didn't know about were getting death threats, so it's hard to say it's not a normal, routine occurrence.
While I'd like to give people the benefit of the doubt as the OP suggests my experience is too much in line with this post. In my case mostly relating to fighting games. I can, for example, based on the "people I've encountered" sample size say that the player base for 'Injustice: Gods Among Us' is the bitchiest and most prone to rage quitting out of any fighting game I've played. As in more ragers and/or hatemail on a per match bases than any other fighting game I've ever played. On the upside, I guess, I've only had one person threaten to kill me so far.

I would also add that if a community really does truly have an issue with a vocal minority that's making it look bad (probably not the case with CoD) then the less vocal majority needs to step the fuck up and let people know that not everyone who does or plays _____________ is like that.
 

Norithics

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BreakfastMan said:
And why do you think no one levels the criticism of racism against the metal community, eh?
At a glance? Because it's a subculture that thrives on an image of subversion, so any specific detriment would've probably been lost in the fog. It's a pretty unique thing.

Abomination said:
It's thanks to people who identify as such being scornful of those who give them the bad name while also generally being awesome folks. Say what you will about Jack Black but the guy has been the poster boy for "Cool metal dude".
I get the feeling that the 'being awesome folks' part matters a whole lot more. Jack Black used his fame to further the cause and create a positive example of a Metal fan that people could relate to. I've never heard him denounce anybody for being not what Metal's about.
 

Aramis Night

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I don't understand the preoccupation with the judgements of others. Why the insecurity? If people make bad assumptions about you because of their incorrect preconceived notions of who you are, feel free to correct them. But attempting to remake the image of gamer in your image in the minds of those around you isn't likely to happen. If you try to correct people's false assumptions by explaining yourself, you only convince them that you are different(and tbh they are just as likely to assume your bs'ing them and that their preconceived notions are still correct), even if you claim you're far from the only ones like yourself. The narrative of how bad gamers are existed before we even had bad gamers. Back in the 80's older people were making the same connections about gaming they did with DnD, despite the lack of prevalent satanic gamers.

This whole conversation is old hat. Here we are 30 yrs later, still having the same uphill fight. At some point you just have to let people's bad/incorrect judgements be their problem. The people you want to convince, don't want to be convinced. Most of the media that demonizes games and gamers is targeted towards older people who just want their preconceived notions reinforced. The bright part in this is that soon the old people that choose to demonize us because they were never one of us, will all be gone. And then all the negative press about video games and gamers will be focused on how we are all sexist jerks who enjoy keeping women out of gaming. Oh well. Cant win them all.
 

RaikuFA

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It's kinda hard to. Especially when it still happens with said demographic.

I hate the FGC for it's elitist and not so welcoming attitude towards newcomers. It happened back in the arcade days and nowadays online plus some people admit to still doing/did it and acting like they're protecting the genre from the filthy casuals. People that are considered pros do this.
 

Korolev

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It's the problem of the vocal minority. The crazy people are not the majority, but they are the ones who post most frequently and actively harass the developers. This creates the perception that they make up the majority. To put it another way - 5% of fans probably are responsible for 90% of posts on a developers website. The reason being that it is that 5% who feel most strongly about the game. And those who feel the most strongly about something are also the ones who are going to act silly or emotional when they perceive a "threat".
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Well... i'm a Brony and i'm very well aware that i share this fanbase with a bunch of people who make it look quite nasty. Now, Bronies pride themselves in being tolerant and welcoming towards all kinds of people but this might hurt us more than it helps us. It does make me sad to see people associate me with the stereotypical /mlp/ and DeviantArt crowd but i suppose that is inevitable. Nonetheless i'm proud to be part of the fanbase... i always thought a large number of adults embracing somethin innocent and idealistic makes the world a slightly better place. The porn is just an inevitable side product of a community that consists to a large part of teenage boys.
 

SonicWaffle

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Abomination said:
When I encounter an obnoxious little bastard on any game I play I belittle and insult them for their backwards and annoying views. If they hear a girl's voice and get all "omg tits or gtfo" or whatever, I mock their desperation and obvious lack of any successful interaction with females.
So you basically do exactly the same thing as the "little bastards" everyone complains about? Belittle, insult, mock, talk trash to other people playing the game because "they started it"?

Pretty sure that makes you one of them, dude.

Zachary Amaranth said:
I understand that "people I've encountered" is a flawed sample, but I've really seen nothing but evidence to support this belief.
Which is odd really, because the only Xbox games I ever really put time into playing online are the CoD series, and nobody ever talks. I've never received any abuse or even messages, it's just a lot of people being very quiet.

Hell, I got worse in AC: Brotherhood; some kid called me gay because I stabbed him. That's about the extent of the abuse I've taken over Live.

Norithics said:
An interesting example! But the question is, was it the condemnation that improved the Metal scene's cred in the eyes of the layman? Because from what I've seen, it's either consistently panned (by conservative groups who don't understand that lyrics are often ironic in nature)
Fun fact, Conservapedia's heavy metal page [http://www.conservapedia.com/Heavy_metal_music] is a fairly balanced affair looking more at the history of the music than anything else. And this is the same wiki that links everything that isn't extreme right-wing dogma with atheistic liberal evil. Clearly there are even some on the lunatic right-wing fringe who have no beef with the metal scene.
 

nuttshell

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Korolev said:
And those who feel the most strongly about something are also the ones who are going to act silly or emotional when they perceive a "threat".
Thats the problem with groups. Usually, the people who feel the most strongly about something, are the ones who build the group and wish to steer it in a particular way. Unfortunately, the attention they bring to something also makes them go ape-shit when confronted with criticism or change (when they had no control over it) on their object of interest. There is a difference whether you identify with and invest yourself in a particular group or you just happen to have similarities with it, which you think are not important. Most, invested sports fans, for example, have a team of players they are "grouping" for, with which they have no similarities other than being roughly in the same area at the same time. When the team looses, they will defend their team by inventing excuses, when there aren't any and feel as though some great injustice has been done to them, act violently on it or sink in a state of sadness, bordering with depression.
 

Vegosiux

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thaluikhain said:
That's a false dichotomy there. They can always speak out against the people causing the problem.
They can, sure, but how does that have anything to do with whether or not it's reasonable and fair for a third party to expect them to?

There's a massive difference between saying "I'm not like that" and "Hey you, don't be like that".
Actually, in the part of the post you left out, I explained how there's not a massive difference. It might be worded a bit ambiguously, but the point I was making is that there's no way for vocally expressing opposition to not imply you consider yourself "not like whoever I am verbally opposing".
 

nuttshell

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PsychedelicDiamond said:
Nonetheless i'm proud to be part of the fanbase...
Why do you take pride in something you have almost no control over? Don't misunderstand, I think it's nice that it can and does exist in such a way.
 

Thaluikhain

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Vegosiux said:
Actually, in the part of the post you left out, I explained how there's not a massive difference. It might be worded a bit ambiguously, but the point I was making is that there's no way for vocally expressing opposition to not imply you consider yourself "not like whoever I am verbally opposing".
So? Doesn't mean you can't do something useful as well as doing that. That makes a big difference.
 

Queen Michael

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RaikuFA said:
It's kinda hard to. Especially when it still happens with said demographic.

I hate the FGC for it's elitist and not so welcoming attitude towards newcomers. It happened back in the arcade days and nowadays online plus some people admit to still doing/did it and acting like they're protecting the genre from the filthy casuals. People that are considered pros do this.
What's FGC?