Don't let vocal minorties paint a picture of an entire fanbase

Vegosiux

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thaluikhain said:
Vegosiux said:
Actually, in the part of the post you left out, I explained how there's not a massive difference. It might be worded a bit ambiguously, but the point I was making is that there's no way for vocally expressing opposition to not imply you consider yourself "not like whoever I am verbally opposing".
So? Doesn't mean you can't do something useful as well as doing that. That makes a big difference.
No, it really, really doesn't. Stopping to go out of your way to call some random yokel out on something is just lip service to those who might have been offended by said yokel. It's just words. It's something to make oneself look good to the others without putting any actual effort in. Everyone can do that. But let's not pretend that just because one took five seconds to chew out an asshole one can thump their chest and act as if they're "doing their part". (Okay, they can I suppose, but they've really, really, not done anything.)

For example, going with the CoD theme, if I see someone abused for their lack of apparent skill, what does more to help them out? Calling out the person harassing them or tugging on their sleeve and going "Psssst, want me to show you some tricks so that you can serve some humble pie to that moron next time?"

Maybe it's just me and my character, but I think it's more important to adhere to good behavior than it is to explicitly condemn negative behavior. And it saddens me that some would ignore one's good behavior simply because they don't explicitly condemn the assholery of those they might happen to be loosely associated with; or rather that such expression of indignation should be on the "good behavior checklist". It really shouldn't.
 

Dr.Awkward

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You know, if you want to stop the "vocal minority" of a group, remember this: it's hard to stop someone when you're not part of that fanbase.

However, if you are part of that fanbase, then inform those who make a positive image for your fanbase. These vocal minorities are often unable to defend themselves, especially when they are being accosted by who they represent. Eventually they'll either quiet down and reconsider what it means to be in that fanbase, or realize that the fanbase isn't for them and move on to something else.
 

ForumSafari

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Why do you even care? It's just a thing you like and that a number of other people like. it's not your sexuality or the cornerstone of your soul. Frankly if you're going to get hung up over other people that like the things you like being thought of badly then you're going to be worrying forever.

incidentally why are you a 'community' with people that just happen to like the same things? I don't feel any kind of attachment to the people that enjoy the things I do just because we share a hobby.
 

Soundwave

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Queen Michael said:
RaikuFA said:
It's kinda hard to. Especially when it still happens with said demographic.

I hate the FGC for it's elitist and not so welcoming attitude towards newcomers. It happened back in the arcade days and nowadays online plus some people admit to still doing/did it and acting like they're protecting the genre from the filthy casuals. People that are considered pros do this.
What's FGC?
Fighting game community.
 

dementis

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Abomination said:
When I encounter an obnoxious little bastard on any game I play I belittle and insult them for their backwards and annoying views. If they hear a girl's voice and get all "omg tits or gtfo" or whatever, I mock their desperation and obvious lack of any successful interaction with females.

I like to call it "Black Knighting". I'm not there to protect anyone, I'm just thankful I have a valid reason to be a complete asshole to a deserving party. It?s cathartic.

If the "silent majority" of CODers would stop being silent then the reputation they've earned wouldn't be considered a facet of every CODer. If every experience of someone being a complete asshole for no reason to someone else on a server had more than one person calling them out for being a little **** the reputation wouldn?t exist.
I love the sound of Black knighting, I usually play games like that with the game chat on silent so I don't have to listen to people.

OT: I tend to avoid mentioning that I play games with a reputation for bad communities these days, I know a lot of people say it's a vocal minority but.. the amount of crap I had to listen to before taking my always muted option really makes me wonder if it really is a minority anymore, or if the silent majority have slowly left the community to avoid listening to the vocal.

The games I play the most these days seem to have a very friendly user community. In all the time I've played Guild wars 2 I haven't really seen anyone being insulting or rude but have seen plenty of people help out others on a regular basis.
 

CrazyGirl17

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That's the problem with fandoms, there's always the nutters who ruin it for everyone else...
 

JaceArveduin

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Tarrker said:
erttheking said:
I'm pretty sure that all of us have played a game that we really, REALLY like that had at least one asshole online make the overall fanbase of the game look worse.
For me it's Halo and Counter-Strike. Also, I think this goes beyond just gaming. I'm a pasty, white, super-nerd of a human being but I'm also a master of several forms of martial arts. I can remember, as a young teen, countless slack-jawed stares from surprised jocks and "cool" kids who thought they could physically bully me and did not succeed. I was simply fearless then and had little morality on top of that but all they saw was this dork who played Dungeons & Dragons with all the other nerds.

Strangely enough, it's the opposite reputation that seems to precede me nowadays. I tell people I study martial arts and they seem to think they already know me. You'd be surprised how many people actually try to hit me because I say that. x_x
Never got into martial arts, but I was always the 'nerdy smart guy' in the class.

Funny, nobody ever tried to physically bully me, but it might be because I can look like a psychotic mass murderer when I want to. The aura of 'Fuck Off, or I'll slit your throat' is a very powerful tool ;)
 

JagermanXcell

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RaikuFA said:
It's kinda hard to. Especially when it still happens with said demographic.

I hate the FGC for it's elitist and not so welcoming attitude towards newcomers. It happened back in the arcade days and nowadays online plus some people admit to still doing/did it and acting like they're protecting the genre from the filthy casuals. People that are considered pros do this.
Finally someone mentions the FGC that way I can use a video that just so happens to fit the forum topic. Yay!


Ok let me explain, this guy Main Event called out the FGC on their BS you mentioned, along with a lot more BS that is down right inexcusable. (His part 2 to this video got flagged to death by brainless FGC fanboys cause it exposed how 3 guys from the FGS left an innocent player for dead in the Mojave because they assumed he stole money... I am not kidding)

Eventually this led to one of them actually calling out the uploader for a face 2 face meeting, he accepted, oh but God forbid I argue with someone in real life instead of behind the safety of my computer screen! So like most of vocal minority in most communities that we despise, he never showed up, he remained a faceless air headed coward so that he continue to spout nonsense and give a bad rep.

What most communities should do nowadays is pretty simple. The vocal majorities should be a lot more well informed on crap that goes around the community, so when they come across bigots in the FGC/other community, in a sophisticated and gentlemanly manner tell them to please SIT DOWN. SHUT THE @#$% UP. OR GTFO.

Just don't say it like that... don't want to stoop to their level and paint a bad picture... again. >_>
 

Queen Michael

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Colin Murray said:
Queen Michael said:
RaikuFA said:
It's kinda hard to. Especially when it still happens with said demographic.

I hate the FGC for it's elitist and not so welcoming attitude towards newcomers. It happened back in the arcade days and nowadays online plus some people admit to still doing/did it and acting like they're protecting the genre from the filthy casuals. People that are considered pros do this.
What's FGC?
Fighting game community.
Ah, thanks, comrade.
 

Abomination

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SonicWaffle said:
Abomination said:
When I encounter an obnoxious little bastard on any game I play I belittle and insult them for their backwards and annoying views. If they hear a girl's voice and get all "omg tits or gtfo" or whatever, I mock their desperation and obvious lack of any successful interaction with females.
So you basically do exactly the same thing as the "little bastards" everyone complains about? Belittle, insult, mock, talk trash to other people playing the game because "they started it"?

Pretty sure that makes you one of them, dude.
And I'm pretty sure you don't know the difference between proactive harassment and reactive harassment.

If someone behaves out of line and someone lays into them? That's a good thing - especially when too much of the gaming community lets that shit slide.

Or is your alternative to have the guy who's giving a female player a hard time on the basis of her being a girl to just "have at"? Let him continue with it? Hell no, stand up and tell them what they're doing is unacceptable AND pathetic. Telling someone to just stop typically doesn't meet with any success but adding a few barbs to the whip will leave a far more lasting impression. Not only shouldn't they do it on moral grounds but they also shouldn't do it because they will be ridiculed and shamed in front of their "peers".

You need to remember the who type of person who would do such a thing in the first place is... a person deserving of all the scorn they get.
 

Ishal

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I'm honestly not convinced it is a vocal minority in the case of Call of Duty.

The social norms for CoD fans really do seem to swing towards that sort of behaviour, and my inbox is pretty good evidence that this is, in fact, my experience.

I understand that "people I've encountered" is a flawed sample, but I've really seen nothing but evidence to support this belief.

Also, we usually don't know what's going on with developers. We've found out recently a couple people we didn't know about were getting death threats, so it's hard to say it's not a normal, routine occurrence.
Thats right, I recall you bringing this up in other threads that you play CoD and enjoy it. How DARE you?!?! Kidding =P

But I'd like to ask, what do you think is the demographic for the players you encounter?

I ask this because I found out something interesting the other day... its a bit of a story so i'll condense it in spoiler tags

A few months ago my great uncle celebrated his 91st birthday. At the dinner party, his neighbor was there and I had a chat with her. She's an elementary school teacher. She began to talk about how police came by to tell the teachers they need to pay better attention to the kids when they play, and that some drivers and pedestrians had been complaining about them. Apparently they had been playing pretend with guns following each other around the playground and "shooting" at cars and passersby. When I heard this, I sarcastically hand waved it and made a quip about "oh that CoD, kids these days..." She stopped me and said that was exactly it. They were playing pretend from CoD in recess. I was a little shocked at this... so young, I thought. I asked about Mario, Sonic, and all the other games kids should be playing and she said the kids consider them "gay" and one called Mario.. "faggotry" I kid you not. I've only really heard that term used in excess at one other place, and thats 4chan.

I wondered, some of these kids have older siblings and are simply playing those copies. But, I was an only child, so if I was playing CoD it would only belong to me. It hearkens back to the problem of shitty lazy parents who want the xbox to parent/babysit their kid. You play the game, so do you think this is common thing? I wonder about the future of kid friendly games and Nintendo if this attitude spreads. Perhaps Nintendo's market isn't as secure as they think. I'm sure its a minority, but will it stay that way for long?
 

Brian Tams

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How about instead of wasting time and energy deflecting criticism, you actually do something to solve the problem?

Yes, I agree that a minority of gamers are the ones making us look bad. But, I refuse to do what you're doing, which is to simply say "I'm not one of them", and then go about your business. Your inaction fuels the problem as well as the perception that we're all threatening dicks. Ignoring the problem does not change the fact that there is a problem.

If you don't like the heat of gamers being treated unfairly, then why don't you confront those who are making us look bad and call them out on it? Whining about how unfair it is won't stop those who are MAKING the situation unfair from continuing to poison the community. The fact that it takes someone like Jim to call us out on our inaction is sickening.
 

Vegosiux

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Brian Tams said:
If you don't like the heat of gamers being treated unfairly, then why don't you confront those who are making us look bad and call them out on it?
Because I'm too busy actually helping out people who need help. Because I think I'm doing more good that way. Instead of chewing out a loudmouth abusing the new girl for being a "lolnub", I'm teaching the new girl a few tricks so she can wipe the floor with the loudmouth the next time.

But, since I don't make a point to be seen doing anything, I suppose I'll be assumed that I'm doing nothing. Ah well.
 

Brian Tams

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Vegosiux said:
Brian Tams said:
If you don't like the heat of gamers being treated unfairly, then why don't you confront those who are making us look bad and call them out on it?
Because I'm too busy actually helping out people who need help. Because I think I'm doing more good that way. Instead of chewing out a loudmouth abusing the new girl for being a "lolnub", I'm teaching the new girl a few tricks so she can wipe the floor with the loudmouth the next time.

But, since I don't make a point to be seen doing anything, I suppose I'll be assumed that I'm doing nothing. Ah well.
But you doing that is not helping the problem. The fact that you have to teach the "new girl/guy" how not to be an "lolnub" is wrong. Not only will the loud mouth exist, but you just robbed the new player of the experience of learning a new game for him/her self. Meanwhile, the loudmouth will just move on to new prey. As gamers, we should support an environment that allows new players to explore and learn for themselves. If they want help, then by all means, ask. But you shouldn't feel like you absolutely need help.

Also, how does helping the "lolnub" stop the disgusting practice of using death/rape threats online? Nope, it doesn't. By all means, though, continue to ignore the actual issue that is damaging to the gamer community if it helps you sleep at night.
 

Callate

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Whatever the "group", it doesn't help when the mass is unwilling or unable to call the extremists out and say "this kind of behavior is unacceptable, it makes the rest of us look bad, and if you don't knock it off we're going to ostracize you like the sickening waste of breath you are."

Especially if a group views itself as somehow "under siege"- and especially in America, that's sadly just about $#@%ing everybody- there's a certain unwillingness to call out bad apples. Sure, you might not agree with what they have to say, but you kind of have to admire their devotion, don't you? And they draw attention to your cause, which might be a good thing... And they may help rally the troops... And they show that you're tolerant... And, bottom line, you are facing "the enemy", and you can't really afford to turn people away if they're ready to fight on your side, can you?

Lie down with dogs...

So, where are the people signing petitions saying that threatening game developers isn't okay? Writing in to show support for companies that make games that take risks and broach controversial subjects? Saying "Even if I don't like what you've done, even if I don't buy it, I respect that you have the right to make it?"

I'm sure there are a few out there, too. But the kind of people who make threats, and even the people who are willing to cheer them on for it, often seem pretty damn loud.
 

broca

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Brian Tams said:
How about instead of wasting time and energy deflecting criticism, you actually do something to solve the problem?

Yes, I agree that a minority of gamers are the ones making us look bad. But, I refuse to do what you're doing, which is to simply say "I'm not one of them", and then go about your business. Your inaction fuels the problem as well as the perception that we're all threatening dicks. Ignoring the problem does not change the fact that there is a problem.

If you don't like the heat of gamers being treated unfairly, then why don't you confront those who are making us look bad and call them out on it? Whining about how unfair it is won't stop those who are MAKING the situation unfair from continuing to poison the community. The fact that it takes someone like Jim to call us out on our inaction is sickening.
And what would you recommend gamers should do? I, for example do not play online nor am i part of a gaming community where harassment is accepted. So why should i fell responsible for the behavior of people i neither know nor have any affiliation to just because the also happen to play games? And even if i accepted some kind of responsibility: what should (or even could) i do to stop random people on the internet from behaving like idiots?
 

CloudAtlas

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Brian Tams said:
How about instead of wasting time and energy deflecting criticism, you actually do something to solve the problem?

Yes, I agree that a minority of gamers are the ones making us look bad. But, I refuse to do what you're doing, which is to simply say "I'm not one of them", and then go about your business. Your inaction fuels the problem as well as the perception that we're all threatening dicks. Ignoring the problem does not change the fact that there is a problem.

If you don't like the heat of gamers being treated unfairly, then why don't you confront those who are making us look bad and call them out on it? Whining about how unfair it is won't stop those who are MAKING the situation unfair from continuing to poison the community. The fact that it takes someone like Jim to call us out on our inaction is sickening.
Exactly. Don't want minorities to paint a bad picture of gamers? Then call them out on their shitty behavior. And if enough people do that, others will realize, hey, those assholes are just a minority, and the majority doesn't condone their behavior, and it is speaking out against them. That would help to paint a better picture.
 

Vegosiux

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Brian Tams said:
But you doing that is not helping the problem. The fact that you have to teach the "new girl/guy" how not to be an "lolnub" is wrong.
No, it is not wrong. Nobody has been born a master of anything. And I like teaching people what I know, if they want to learn it. Be it math, physics or MMO skills.

Not only will the loud mouth exist, but you just robbed the new player of the experience of learning a new game for him/her self.
If that experience consists largely of "being abused for being new and unskilled", I'll gladly "rob" them of that.

Meanwhile, the loudmouth will just move on to new prey.
As opposed to, what, having an epiphany when they get called out by someone, seeing the light and becoming an upstanding citizen? I'm a little too cynical to believe that such a thing happens. Words on the internet aren't much of a consequence that would remind anyone they're accountable for their actions.

As gamers, we should support an environment that allows new players to explore and learn for themselves. If they want help, then by all means, ask. But you shouldn't feel like you absolutely need help.
As gamers, we should support an environment people will like being in, no matter how new. Especially in multiplayer gaming the personal interaction is a large part of the gaming experience.

Also, how does helping the "lolnub" stop the disgusting practice of using death/rape threats online?
How does righteous indignation? Pretty much this way:

Nope, it doesn't.
If you have anything that suggests otherwise, let me see it. So far what I see is A) People getting outraged about other people being assholes B) The amount of assholery not getting any lesser.

By all means, though, continue to ignore the actual issue that is damaging to the gamer community if it helps you sleep at night.
This was both rude and unwarranted. Not once did I insult your position, or you personally, because of our disagreement. But I suppose because I disagree with you, you saw fit to make a personal stab at me.

And yet, somehow it's me that's "not helping the problem".
 

Brian Tams

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Vegosiux said:
Brian Tams said:
But, since I don't make a point to be seen doing anything, I suppose I'll be assumed that I'm doing nothing. Ah well.
Because this was definitely not a stab at me, right?

You ask how being righteous can help? I fully acknowledge that it will rarely work. However, what it does do is show that I do not support that kind of behavior. I'd rather try and fail, than not try at all.

You know what? Enough. Clearly, we're going to keep butting heads until this erupts into something vile, and nobody wants that. As it now appears, no matter what I say, you will not be convinced. And no matter what you say, I will not be convinced. Let's just leave it at that.
 

ninjaRiv

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I'm pretty sure bitchy little shits are the majority of the Call of Duty fanbase. I say that as a fan, though, so no offence meant. I have to mute EVERYBODY (except the opposite team. I like it when they declare their hate for me and my assault rifle). But I try not to let them ruin my game. I think that's the main thing.

But Bioware fans, for example, are not like some are saying...