Dr Who: Dark Water

Sonic Doctor

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Jan 9, 2010
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votemarvel said:
Didn't like the episode myself.

The small reveal was spoilt in the press several times over and the big one was hardly a shock.

After all there was only a handful of names that it could have been and only one that would have been familiar to NuWho fans.

That's not a knock against people who became fans with the restart. Just that the last thing a TV show wants with a reveal is for the viewers to go, and forgive the pun, "who?"

I like the Capaldi Doctor but I have a big feeling that a lot of the stories for this season were intended for Matt Smith.
Granted I was a "NuWho" fan, in that I became a fan around the time Tennant took over as the Doctor. Borrowed the first series from a friend and watched it and watched all that was out of Tennant and got into the show.

I wouldn't have even known Doctor Who was a thing until it started up again with the new stuff. But of course when I found out it started in 1963, I jumped right into old Who and watched everything I could find or purchase.

Really, the show today would be a lot better if they started bringing more stuff from old Who back.

With what has happened, Missy should have been the Rani, or another Time Lady from past Who. Making her the Master was a non-decision, when they were writing the story, that shouldn't have even been a choice.

I don't give a crap if some new viewers would be puzzled and say "who?" If they want to watch the show and experience the franchise, they better damn well learn the back story and things that could come up from the past.

With this thing of Missy being the Master, that is basically Moffat and anybody that went along with it, crapping on canon and burning it and basically saying, we didn't to write and film Doctor Who, we wanted to do something else so we are ruining your show to do it.
 

Sonic Doctor

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undeadsuitor said:
Sonic Doctor said:
Doctor Who has never stated the Doctor can't be a woman. The lack of evidence is not evidence.

Remember the whole "the doctor can only regenerate 13 times"? Well, THAT's already been retconed out. The Doctor is now immortal and can regenerate as much as he wants. Is the show dead yet to you?

In the original show, the Doctor built his Tardis. But then they changed it to where he stole it. Dead yet?

The Doctor originally had one heart. Then they changed it. Dead yet?

The Doctors seventh incarnation stated he was 953 years old. The ninth doctor said he was 903. Dead yet?

Doctor Who is a pretty fluid show when it comes to its own canon and lore. It comes with the benefit of having hundreds of writers and actors over decades of episodes. Lots of stuff has changed over the years big and small.

Yet the doctor being a woman is the change that kills it for you. And JUST that. Hmmmm yeah I think I'll go with sexist.
1.) The regenerations. The only reason the whole only 13 regeneration cycle thing was mentioned in new Who like it was a dead end after that, is because yes, if the Doctor was alone and did on his final life, then yes he would be dead, because he was the only Time Lord left and didn't have the power to give himself more regenerations. Getting more than 13 regenerations is part of canon before new Who. In the 25th anniversary episode "The Five Doctors", as much as they don't want to, the leaders of Gallifrey call upon the Master to help out the Doctor, the Master refuses, though ends up semi-going along with it, because the leaders tell him that they will reward him with a new cycle of regenerations.
What happened when Matt Smith regenerated wasn't getting unlimited regenerations, he got a new cycle of them, 13 more. The only way a Time Lord can get past that 13, is to be granted more by the Council. Back then in old Who, several episodes before that 25th anniversary, the Master was out of regenerations, but when he was mortally wounded, the only way he survived was by doing the evil act of finding a way to take over another person's body and making it their own. So, Time Lords by canon can live past the 13 regenerations.

2.) Nope. I've watched the original show from the first Doctor onward. The story wasn't that he built it, when he said things like that he as saying it to people to make them more impressed by him(also not to reveal such a thing as that he stole it) During the first Doctor's tenure, he mentioned several times that he can't go back home, that he ran away, it's because he stole the TARDIS. The BBC overseen comics from the 80's even did a comic that was of a young Time Lord that steals a TARDIS ends up on Earth during the time of the Dinosaurs, and at the end of the comic is basically revealed that he is the Doctor.

3.) It was never said in old Who that he only had one heart, but two hearts was said several times.

4.) On the age thing, it is an error yes, but a minor one. Besides, that can easily be explained away as that the Doctor has lost track of his age. I don't remember which episodes of the top of my head but during Tom Bakers tenure, I know he mentioned once or twice that he couldn't quite remember how many years old.

Your knowledge of the show and franchise is horribly flawed and spotty. I would go back and re-watch it if I were you.

The fact that every time a male Time Lord regenerates, he is still male, and the same for Time Ladies being female always, as proof by all the mentions of other Time Lords regeneration in the old series, that is point enough to say that a Time Lord can only regenerate into the gender that they were born to. Heck, when ever the second Doctor was forced by the Time Lords to regenerate, they showed him a long list of possible appearances, all were male and of the same race. That is canon, and people need to stop mucking it up.

Again it is not a sexist thing, it is about canon and keeping proper continuity. In my post from before, I mentioned other shows and movie franchises that I consider dead. All of them are the same point I am making about Doctor Who, I am pissed because with DW and those shows, they were ruined by people that don't know how to work within an establish franchise. If people get a hold of an established franchise and want to make new installments, the better damn well stick to the franchise and not thrown bull crap unnecessary changes into it. People that change franchises like that need to be banned from ever working on the franchise again, and have the non-canon works retconned and the existence of it erased.
 

Sonic Doctor

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Kingjackl said:
Sonic Doctor said:
Okay first of all, why is he obligated to work mystery characters into 'original' Doctor Who? The Master is a character from the original series, so I'm not sure what you're on about there, but is it really so heart-breaking that River Song ended up being an original creation rather than a call-back that would have confused new fans and (inevitably) angered old ones? If you were in charge of the show, wouldn't you rather use the boundless resources available to actually create new content and add to the universe instead of wallowing in old stuff?

And I agree, making the Master a woman is basically guaranteeing that the same will eventually happen to the Doctor. But again, why is that so bad? People have been calling for a female Doctor for years, I'm sure a lot of them were pleased now it's confirmed possible. They'd already hinted at gender-swapping regenerations before (I think there was a reference to that in Neil Gaimen's TARDIS episode), I don't think it's going to 'ruin' anything. Besides, Doctor Who canon is looser than the Simpsons' at this point. The Master came back from the dead unexplained last night, the Daleks and Cybermen have been doing it since time immemorial, and at the end of the day we're going to keep watching them.
I all well and fine with creating new content, but not new content that messes with canon of things that came before. The greatest sign creativity, being a good writer, to working on an established franchise is to be able to create original works/content but be able to fit it into/alongside what is established with out changing what is established. If a writer changes/erases what is established, just so that there new content fits, that is a sign of a bad writer. A good writer learns that in some cases one must learn to color within the lines but find a way to do so uniquely/creatively. Those cases are ones that involve establish franchises that they themselves didn't create.

You do realize that there never was a call for a female Doctor until the new series(where bad writers made stupid hits that it could be possible).

I don't give a shit about Neil Gaimen's episode, in that it goes in with the people that have no right putting in non-canon points in episodes that they are given the privilege to write.

Yes the Daleks and Cybermen have come back many times, but it is always by ways that fit fine with canon. The Master could have come back in a way that fit with canon, the last we saw of him was he was going back to Gallifrey as it was thrown back into the Time War, and the Time Lords would have the power to give him a new regeneration cycle. But him being female is against canon, but I'd be against it if he had changed into anything other than a male human looking person of one race.

If people want a different style of show, with a different kind of main character, then they should go make a different style of show, an actual new show, and stop trying to muck up establish franchises with things that go against canon. People need to stop trying to ride on the backs of great shows/franchises and go off on their own. If they have a different vision, go create that vision elsewhere, with new names, titles, settings, story, etc. etc.
 

Fieldy409_v1legacy

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Sonic Doctor said:
Kingjackl said:
Sonic Doctor said:
Okay first of all, why is he obligated to work mystery characters into 'original' Doctor Who? The Master is a character from the original series, so I'm not sure what you're on about there, but is it really so heart-breaking that River Song ended up being an original creation rather than a call-back that would have confused new fans and (inevitably) angered old ones? If you were in charge of the show, wouldn't you rather use the boundless resources available to actually create new content and add to the universe instead of wallowing in old stuff?

And I agree, making the Master a woman is basically guaranteeing that the same will eventually happen to the Doctor. But again, why is that so bad? People have been calling for a female Doctor for years, I'm sure a lot of them were pleased now it's confirmed possible. They'd already hinted at gender-swapping regenerations before (I think there was a reference to that in Neil Gaimen's TARDIS episode), I don't think it's going to 'ruin' anything. Besides, Doctor Who canon is looser than the Simpsons' at this point. The Master came back from the dead unexplained last night, the Daleks and Cybermen have been doing it since time immemorial, and at the end of the day we're going to keep watching them.
I all well and fine with creating new content, but not new content that messes with canon of things that came before. The greatest sign creativity, being a good writer, to working on an established franchise is to be able to create original works/content but be able to fit it into/alongside what is established with out changing what is established. If a writer changes/erases what is established, just so that there new content fits, that is a sign of a bad writer. A good writer learns that in some cases one must learn to color within the lines but find a way to do so uniquely/creatively. Those cases are ones that involve establish franchises that they themselves didn't create.

You do realize that there never was a call for a female Doctor until the new series(where bad writers made stupid hits that it could be possible).

I don't give a shit about Neil Gaimen's episode, in that it goes in with the people that have no right putting in non-canon points in episodes that they are given the privilege to write.

Yes the Daleks and Cybermen have come back many times, but it is always by ways that fit fine with canon. The Master could have come back in a way that fit with canon, the last we saw of him was he was going back to Gallifrey as it was thrown back into the Time War, and the Time Lords would have the power to give him a new regeneration cycle. But him being female is against canon, but I'd be against it if he had changed into anything other than a male human looking person of one race.

If people want a different style of show, with a different kind of main character, then they should go make a different style of show, an actual new show, and stop trying to muck up establish franchises with things that go against canon. People need to stop trying to ride on the backs of great shows/franchises and go off on their own. If they have a different vision, go create that vision elsewhere, with new names, titles, settings, story, etc. etc.
You might be getting worked up over nothing as far as regeneration into a female body goes. We dont know how the master has came back, did he simply regenerate? He didnt use timelord regeneration when he used that ring to come back from the dead, and last time we saw him he was in a body that as he described it was 'Made from death, all it can do is die' or something like that. He might not have regenerated, he might have stole that body from another timelord, he might have created it from scratch as some sort of clone, or anything really. We know things can come through to the rest of the universe from Gallifrey now, thats how the new set of regenerations came about. What if the Master was just clever enough to get out now that Gallifrey isnt gone? Hes probably much smarter than all the other timelords except for the Doctor.
 

Hiramas

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Sonic Doctor said:
The fact that every time a male Time Lord regenerates, he is still male, and the same for Time Ladies being female always, as proof by all the mentions of other Time Lords regeneration in the old series, that is point enough to say that a Time Lord can only regenerate into the gender that they were born to. Heck, when ever the second Doctor was forced by the Time Lords to regenerate, they showed him a long list of possible appearances, all were male and of the same race. That is canon, and people need to stop mucking it up.
As undeadsuitor said, lack of evidence is NOT evidence.
The fact that all previous regenerations had no gender or race swaps is not proof that it is not possible.
Rather than preaching canon here, you should go back and consider the decisions writers and show-runners made back then.
Race or gender swapping was an absolute NO-GO back then.
If you have a piece of direct in-canon evidence of your canon-claim, please cite it for us and I will apologize to you.
But even in that case, I would be perfectly fine with a ret-con of this fact in favor of adapting the show to our time.
Not doing so would only limit the creativity.

Though I would not want a gender or race swap just the BBC can check a box.
It would have to be meaningful to the story and the doctor in a way.
Or maybe the really progressive thing would be to cast a woman, make her a redhead and have her ramble a season about being ginger, never really making the womanhood a thing?
Because, in the end, a good character is a good character no matter his gender?
I don't know, it would be interesting to watch either way.

off topic, I agree with you on Abrams-Trek, though I am a little more optimistic about Star Wars since he actually seems to like that. And he seems to has the rule: Do the opposite the prequels did, wich can only end better.

Concerning SGU, I actually did not hate hit. It wasn't the best but it was ok and it would be interesting to see where it would have gone. Though at this point I really believe SG has to rest a few years longer. A new, more TNG/DS9 oriented Star Trek show (Dominion War aftermath/cleanup, SOOO many stories there!) would be terrific, though!
 

Kingjackl

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Sonic Doctor said:
I all well and fine with creating new content, but not new content that messes with canon of things that came before. The greatest sign creativity, being a good writer, to working on an established franchise is to be able to create original works/content but be able to fit it into/alongside what is established with out changing what is established. If a writer changes/erases what is established, just so that there new content fits, that is a sign of a bad writer. A good writer learns that in some cases one must learn to color within the lines but find a way to do so uniquely/creatively. Those cases are ones that involve establish franchises that they themselves didn't create.
I think when a franchise has been around for so long that most of the people involved with it's original creation are now dead, the current showrunners have more right than anyone else to decide what can and cannot be done. I think the argument that Moffat has it in for the old series was firmly quashed when 'Night of the Doctor' came out.

You do realize that there never was a call for a female Doctor until the new series(where bad writers made stupid hits that it could be possible).
I can understand that; the new series has been going for 9 years now, and it's attracted a large following among woman, mainly thanks to David Tennant, but also because of inclusive writing and an emphasis on guile over brute force. It makes perfect sense that people would start to ask why there hasn't been a female Doctor yet.

I don't give a shit about Neil Gaimen's episode, in that it goes in with the people that have no right putting in non-canon points in episodes that they are given the privilege to write.
As I said, he and the other writers has every right, because it's their show now. While Gaimen was only a guest writer, the script would still have been approved by Steven Moffat. Even if you aren't a fan of his writing, that doesn't change the fact that he's in charge, and history will be the judge of whether his decisions were good or bad.

Also, ragging on Neil Gaimen's writing? Take it from me, that's risky territory.

Yes the Daleks and Cybermen have come back many times, but it is always by ways that fit fine with canon. The Master could have come back in a way that fit with canon, the last we saw of him was he was going back to Gallifrey as it was thrown back into the Time War, and the Time Lords would have the power to give him a new regeneration cycle. But him being female is against canon, but I'd be against it if he had changed into anything other than a male human looking person of one race.

If people want a different style of show, with a different kind of main character, then they should go make a different style of show, an actual new show, and stop trying to muck up establish franchises with things that go against canon. People need to stop trying to ride on the backs of great shows/franchises and go off on their own. If they have a different vision, go create that vision elsewhere, with new names, titles, settings, story, etc. etc.
I would like to point out that we've only just seen this new Master, and we don't know how or why she ended up where she is. The episode ended on a cliffhanger, so we may still get an explanation of how she survived 'End of Time' in the next episode. Even if we didn't, I doubt anybody would really care.

I'm not going to dwell on your issues with the Doctor/Master regenerating into women; as others have said, the lack of evidence is not evidence, and the Master being a woman now is as canon as it's ever going to get. I still wonder if you've thought through why the idea of a female Doctor is so abhorrent to you, because it sounds to me like little more than fear of change. I just can't buy that you're afraid it will alter the style of the show in some irreparable way, because let's be honest, she's still going to be flying around in a police box with a companion and a sonic screwdriver. If I were you, I'd wait and see for myself before judging if it's going to wreck anything.
 

Albino Boo

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Sonic Doctor said:
Soviet Heavy said:
Sonic Doctor said:
This does not go with original Doctor Who and the canon. The only time that this idea has been mentioned/brought up is in the new series. I really do believe they were planning this from the beginning, they took their time and peppered in things they felt they could say here's why we can now do this.
Curse of the Fatal Death, 1999 parody episode. Also, written by Steven Moffat.
Didn't know that existed, when I first got into Doctor Who I search for, read, and watched everything I could find, and I never heard of it.

But then again, if we are talking canon, it doesn't count as in keyword "parody" episode.
But since he wrote it, it does show the sinister plot in his mind, "The Doctor Regenerates into a woman, oh ha ha ha, would that be silly." Of course what he was really doing is slipping in false information to try and get people to think that something like that is possible in the canon, which it isn't.

As far as Moffat is concerned, anything he does that goes against canon, is immediately seen as a non-thing.
For me anything involving Amy and Rory doesn't exist, River Song never showed up again after the Series 4 Library episodes(Because Moffat's explanation of who she was, was pure shit.) For series 5 through part of 7, as far as I'm concerned, the Doctor was unconscious and was having a really stupid nightmare.

Again, the show is headed in the direction I suspecting that Moffat is shifting it, the show will be dead to me. If the Doctor regenerates into a woman, the show is dead, at the point the entity that is the Doctor, is fully dead. Oh and before anybody tries to say it is a sexist thing or whatever, no it has nothing to do with anything like that. It all has to do with canon and sticking to continuity. I would be just as angry if it was a race change or he changed into some non-human looking creature. If people want a show similar to Doctor Who with a female lead, then they should just make their own show, don't mess with things that are established and don't need changing.

I'm seeing a huge pattern of TV and movie franchises I like dieing because people think, well we have to change this up radically for it to stay good and be accepted by more people. Stargate died because of how Stargate Universe was handled(filmed and written). JJ Abrams mucked up and pretty much killed Star Trek with his "Nu Trek", now he's off to ruin Star Wars(have you seen the storm trooper helmets, guess he was trying to get in more lens flare). Even a thing from my childhood like the Ninja Turtles and that shit new movie. When will people learn that in order to keep a franchise good and going is to keep the core of it 100% the same and only change small things that don't mess with story, casting patterns, film style, etc, etc.

But of course no that's not possible, because people don't know when to leave well enough alone, so with the way things are headed, Doctor Who will be yet another ruined and dead franchise.

There is no such thing as cannon in Dr Who and never has been. The entire show has been run on the principle that what the Dr can ans cannot do is entirely about what suits the dramatic purpose of the writers. Even as something as basic as regeneration. When its first happened it was called rejuvenation and was property of the Tardis. The Second Dr into the 3rd was a punishment imposed by the Timelords. Only with 3rd to fourth do we get get the classic regeneration. However even then when Romana regenerated she had full control of her appearance breaking with was established before. The fourth to fifth regeneration featured a glowing mummy following around the Dr before merging to create the incarnation. In short you are complaining because the show is continuing to do what its always done, just making stuff up to suit what the writers want now.


 

CrankyStorming

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Sonic Doctor said:
3.) It was never said in old Who that he only had one heart, but two hearts was said several times.
People often checked the Doctor's heartbeat and were not surprised, suggesting only one heart.
 

Zontar

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CrankyStorming said:
Sonic Doctor said:
3.) It was never said in old Who that he only had one heart, but two hearts was said several times.
People often checked the Doctor's heartbeat and were not surprised, suggesting only one heart.
Wouldn't two hearts still only give a single pulse? I mean it seems illogical for something with two hearts to not have them be synchronized. Much more efficient then a single heart, half as much energy from each required for the same task. Assuming having two hearts made sense (because from an evolutionary standpoint it doesn't), that's pretty much the only logical reason for it.
 

elvor0

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Zontar said:
CrankyStorming said:
Sonic Doctor said:
3.) It was never said in old Who that he only had one heart, but two hearts was said several times.
People often checked the Doctor's heartbeat and were not surprised, suggesting only one heart.
Wouldn't two hearts still only give a single pulse? I mean it seems illogical for something with two hearts to not have them be synchronized. Much more efficient then a single heart, half as much energy from each required for the same task. Assuming having two hearts made sense (because from an evolutionary standpoint it doesn't), that's pretty much the only logical reason for it.
As far as I'm aware and can remember, Classic Who never established the actual rhythm of the hearts (someone feel free to correct me there), however, Nu-who goes with the idea of them taking turns in beating(the drums).

It could just be that they didn't go into it and they did beat at the same time or it was a retcon that he has two hearts, though I don't think we'll ever know for certain. However! I presume that a trained doctor would recognize the abnormal sound that would come from having two hearts beating regardless of them beating at the same time or not, so my vote goes for a retcon.
 

Albino Boo

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elvor0 said:
Zontar said:
CrankyStorming said:
Sonic Doctor said:
3.) It was never said in old Who that he only had one heart, but two hearts was said several times.
People often checked the Doctor's heartbeat and were not surprised, suggesting only one heart.
Wouldn't two hearts still only give a single pulse? I mean it seems illogical for something with two hearts to not have them be synchronized. Much more efficient then a single heart, half as much energy from each required for the same task. Assuming having two hearts made sense (because from an evolutionary standpoint it doesn't), that's pretty much the only logical reason for it.
As far as I'm aware and can remember, Classic Who never established the actual rhythm of the hearts (someone feel free to correct me there), however, Nu-who goes with the idea of them taking turns in beating(the drums).

It could just be that they didn't go into it and they did beat at the same time or it was a retcon that he has two hearts, though I don't think we'll ever know for certain. However! I presume that a trained doctor would recognize the abnormal sound that would come from having two hearts beating regardless of them beating at the same time or not, so my vote goes for a retcon.
In the 5 Doctors it was stated that Time Lords had two pulses.
 

Thaluikhain

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elvor0 said:
Zontar said:
CrankyStorming said:
Sonic Doctor said:
3.) It was never said in old Who that he only had one heart, but two hearts was said several times.
People often checked the Doctor's heartbeat and were not surprised, suggesting only one heart.
Wouldn't two hearts still only give a single pulse? I mean it seems illogical for something with two hearts to not have them be synchronized. Much more efficient then a single heart, half as much energy from each required for the same task. Assuming having two hearts made sense (because from an evolutionary standpoint it doesn't), that's pretty much the only logical reason for it.
As far as I'm aware and can remember, Classic Who never established the actual rhythm of the hearts (someone feel free to correct me there), however, Nu-who goes with the idea of them taking turns in beating(the drums).

It could just be that they didn't go into it and they did beat at the same time or it was a retcon that he has two hearts, though I don't think we'll ever know for certain. However! I presume that a trained doctor would recognize the abnormal sound that would come from having two hearts beating regardless of them beating at the same time or not, so my vote goes for a retcon.
It was mentioned that he had a "double pulse".The earliest example I can think of goes back to John Pertwee's first story Spearhead from Space, where two hearts was mentioned by a confused doctor.
 

Netrigan

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Sonic Doctor said:
2.) Nope. I've watched the original show from the first Doctor onward. The story wasn't that he built it, when he said things like that he as saying it to people to make them more impressed by him(also not to reveal such a thing as that he stole it) During the first Doctor's tenure, he mentioned several times that he can't go back home, that he ran away, it's because he stole the TARDIS. The BBC overseen comics from the 80's even did a comic that was of a young Time Lord that steals a TARDIS ends up on Earth during the time of the Dinosaurs, and at the end of the comic is basically revealed that he is the Doctor.
Susan named the TARIS. The implication was the Doctor had built it, although the pre-history of the show is pretty conflicted on that count as he went through a variety of origins and motivations until they just went with nothing specific. If memory serves, they even removed a line from the original pilot to avoid stating he was an alien. The Doctor stealing the TARDIS was the most persistent idea though.

They kind of threw a bunch of stuff at the screen and the stuff that stuck become lore. Brains of Morbius was supposed to have established several previous incarnations of the Doctor, but everyone kind of ignored it. UNIT stories were supposed to have taken place in the near future (the 80s), but it shifted to the 70s in other stories. In The Five Doctors, they attempted to prevent Susan from calling the Doctor "grandfather" because it contradicted him being asexual... which Carol Ann Ford absolutely refused to change. Originally the TARDIS made no noise when it landed... then it did (guess the Doctor discovered the parking brake). "You can't change history, not one line"... nevermind.
 

ghalleon0915

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Well, this episode was a bit of a mixed bag for me....and I did not see the previous episode so I had no episode preview.

The episode started off a bit slow, and really threw me off with the whole dream scenario ( admittedly, a lot of that was me hoping that Clara had finally lost it and the Doctor wasn't going to put up with it ). They certainly had a lot of misdirection there, and for once Danny wasn't a bland character. I liked his confusion and how perplexed he was, and coming face to face with the kid was pretty good. I think that was what I liked the most about the episode, the characters, from Dr Chang to the guy handling Danny's case.

And of course, Missy. I'm a little disappointed at whom she turned out to be ( frankly, I thought his demise at the end of time was perfect and I cannot wait to see how they explain this, if at all) although it does explain how she acts as there is a lot of the Master in it. I think Missy is utterly delightful, so not much I can add to that.

I'll have to wait till next week to see how this pans out, I can't believe the part where the Doctor wanted to see how far Clara would go to get what she wants will not be a factor in the end. I'm expecting some sort of betrayal/breach of trust where she wants something so bad she will sacrifice the Doctor. I wonder, too, if Danny's consciousness/memories will be downloaded into something ( maybe a Cyberman) and kept alive, something like they did with River Song in the library. Here's hoping next week's finale will be decent...like Capaldi becoming a Cyberman.
 

elvor0

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albino boo said:
In the 5 Doctors it was stated that Time Lords had two pulses.
thaluikhain said:
It was mentioned that he had a "double pulse".The earliest example I can think of goes back to John Pertwee's first story Spearhead from Space, where two hearts was mentioned by a confused doctor.
Oh yes, but does double pulse constitute or stated to be them beating at the same time or the 4 beat rhythm(as I personally don't know the specific definition of "double pulse" if one exists)? Or is it left to the viewers imagination? It's been some time since I've watched classic who, so bear with me :)

Although, even with that being the case, some people have mentioned the doctor being examined and nothing being made of it. So even with the double pulse being stated with Pertwee, it could still be a "retcon" if nothing was made of Hartnell and Troughtons Doctors when or if they were examined.
 

Thaluikhain

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Netrigan said:
UNIT stories were supposed to have taken place in the near future (the 80s), but it shifted to the 70s in other stories.
They cleverly avoided specifying dates for UNIT stories (at least until Mawdryn Undead), though.

In "Day of the Daleks", someone in the future asks Jo Grant the exact date, but not the year, cause they know that already, for example.

Netrigan said:
Brains of Morbius was supposed to have established several previous incarnations of the Doctor, but everyone kind of ignored it.
I always assumed they were previous incarnations of Morbius, who was also a Time Lord. No idea why people think otherwise.

elvor0 said:
Oh yes, but does double pulse constitute or stated to be them beating at the same time or the 4 beat rhythm(as I personally don't know the specific definition of "double pulse" if one exists)? Or is it left to the viewers imagination? It's been some time since I've watched classic who, so bear with me :)
It wasn't specified what it sounded like, though it was supposed to be noticeable. One medical doctor guessed it was an echo from an atypical bone structure, which is a hint, but doesn't outright state.

Now, how you can stick two hearts into the system and not stuff the circulation up...no idea.

elvor0 said:
Although, even with that being the case, some people have mentioned the doctor being examined and nothing being made of it. So even with the double pulse being stated with Pertwee, it could still be a "retcon" if nothing was made of Hartnell and Troughtons Doctors when or if they were examined.
Sure, but then it's a retcon made ages and ages ago, it's been accepted canon for decades. I don't think they ever specified Hartnell or Troughton having one heart, because there'd be no reason to. It's also mentioned that it's possibly for an injured Timelord to have one heart stop, so maybe that's why they didn't notice.
 

Sillyrian

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I was hoping it would turn out to be Romana, or the Rani or something.

Then again, I also hoped Charles Dance would be the Master if he came back.

Really liked part 1 though, god I can't wait for Clara and Danny to go away and put the focus back on the doctor.
 

Netrigan

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thaluikhain said:
Netrigan said:
UNIT stories were supposed to have taken place in the near future (the 80s), but it shifted to the 70s in other stories.
They cleverly avoided specifying dates for UNIT stories (at least until Mawdryn Undead), though.

In "Day of the Daleks", someone in the future asks Jo Grant the exact date, but not the year, cause they know that already, for example.
They didn't make a big deal about the dates, but they're there if you pay attention. Sarah Jane says she's from the 80s on at least one occasion.

Netrigan said:
Brains of Morbius was supposed to have established several previous incarnations of the Doctor, but everyone kind of ignored it.
I always assumed they were previous incarnations of Morbius, who was also a Time Lord. No idea why people think otherwise.
At that point in the story, Morbius is winning and we're seeing the Doctor's incarnations on the screen, going back further and further. The Doctor didn't turn the tables on him until a bit later.

The alternate explanation is it's the incarnations of The Other, which takes some explaining. During the waning years of the original show, they were setting up the Doctor as a legendary figure from Gallifrayan history known only as "The Other". He hung out with Rassilon and Omega back in the days before the Time Lords discovered time travel and was written out of history by Rassilon for some reason or other. Although that theory doesn't really work either, because they didn't regenerate back then.
 

elvor0

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thaluikhain said:
elvor0 said:
Oh yes, but does double pulse constitute or stated to be them beating at the same time or the 4 beat rhythm(as I personally don't know the specific definition of "double pulse" if one exists)? Or is it left to the viewers imagination? It's been some time since I've watched classic who, so bear with me :)
It wasn't specified what it sounded like, though it was supposed to be noticeable. One medical doctor guessed it was an echo from an atypical bone structure, which is a hint, but doesn't outright state.

Now, how you can stick two hearts into the system and not stuff the circulation up...no idea.
Ah hah, so that clears that up then. Mystery solved :)

Alien-timy wimy. I guess Time Lords just have radically different biology despite the aesthetic similarity. Clearly they need both otherwise his circulation does get stuffed up. My girlfriend assumed they were backup organs like a Krogan, which would actually make more sense, till we watched The Shakespeare code and she realised they were both necessary.


thaluikhain said:
elvor0 said:
Although, even with that being the case, some people have mentioned the doctor being examined and nothing being made of it. So even with the double pulse being stated with Pertwee, it could still be a "retcon" if nothing was made of Hartnell and Troughtons Doctors when or if they were examined.
Sure, but then it's a retcon made ages and ages ago, it's been accepted canon for decades. I don't think they ever specified Hartnell or Troughton having one heart, because there'd be no reason to. It's also mentioned that it's possibly for an injured Timelord to have one heart stop, so maybe that's why they didn't notice.
Oh I wasn't really complaining. I was just pointing out to Zontar that the doctor wouldn't have a single pulse with the established 4 beat rhythm and that if it wasn't established that 1 and 2 had two hearts from examination, 3 having two /could/ be an early example of a retcon. The stuff about classic was mainly speculation and thinking out loud on my part.

But then like you said, they were ages ago and it's been like that much much longer than it "hasn't". Stuff like Hartnell and Troughton hearts are speculation really at this point.
 

Thaluikhain

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Netrigan said:
They didn't make a big deal about the dates, but they're there if you pay attention. Sarah Jane says she's from the 80s on at least one occasion.
Oh, right, yeah, Pyramids of Mars, forgot that bit.

Netrigan said:
At that point in the story, Morbius is winning and we're seeing the Doctor's incarnations on the screen, going back further and further. The Doctor didn't turn the tables on him until a bit later.
Eh, it's never quite clear how mind bending works, though. I don't see why it couldn't have shown Morbius' previous incarnations even if he was winning.

As an aside, one of those faces belongs to someone who later worked on NuWho.

Netrigan said:
The alternate explanation is it's the incarnations of The Other, which takes some explaining. During the waning years of the original show, they were setting up the Doctor as a legendary figure from Gallifrayan history known only as "The Other". He hung out with Rassilon and Omega back in the days before the Time Lords discovered time travel and was written out of history by Rassilon for some reason or other. Although that theory doesn't really work either, because they didn't regenerate back then.
One thing I like about the Cartmel plan is that the hints are obvious in retrospect, but they are easily overlooked if you don't know about it.

As opposed to NuWho arc plot stuff, where they stop the story to wave the arc plot in our faces.