Dragon Age 2 Sure is...Busty.

[Catchy Slogan]

I was distracted be the sheer manliness of Hawke's mutton chop/beard combo going on first time. Second time I played Female Hawke and only really looked at her. I might even like FemHawke more...

I'm really loving Hawkes character models, and FemHawke has pretty eyes...

OT: Is it bad that I didn't notice any of this? I mean, I know I can be a bit oblivious at times, but come on! This is rediculous.

 

[Dethpixie]

snip

That would mean more to me if certain martial arts schools didn't hand out black belts like candy these days.

She was in karate for most of her youth and was teaching advanced classes by the time she was thirteen (I think). Regardless of how frivolous that particular school was with its black belts my assumption is that she may have picked up a move or two.

snip

Well, I think the reason that there's always an uproar is because the breasts are always big, pronounced and unrealistic. And Hollywood and the game industry don't or won't give us a middle ground! There's either hugely over-sexualized or skinny androgynous female characters. Because the industry focusses so much on the look of a character, we're forced to as well. Just once I'd like to see a tough female character that doesn't have to be gorgeous or big titted. Actually, Uncharted has a pretty good female character in Elena.

I also totally disagree that in time we'll be treated to diversity, especially if Hollywood is any indicator. And unfortunately, Hollywood and video games are uncomfortably close. Sure, there'll always be a minority of characters that appeal to us in a relatable or average way, but I do admit that video games are about fantasy and sometimes it's fun to play these hyper-stylistic archetypes and step outside of normality.

I agree that developers need to believe that what matters is personality and not cup size, but they don't yet and part of that reason is because the audience for games is the same one that reads comic books, watches movies and tv and is already demands the cookie cutter characters we're given.

Frankly I'm resolved to being one of the person that is not entertained by entertainment geared towards the LCD and will always be seeking out the original, niche, indie, less popular products in media.

I dunno, I think I may be the only person in this thread that trusts that Bioware of all developers will put some personality behind their large breasted characters. I don't think that Dragon Age 2 is a game where we're being pandered to. I imagine having large breasts isn't going to impact their sales in any meaningful way, positively or negatively because that isn't Bioware's audience for the most part. And if that's the case then the character models were a stylistic choice and says nothing about the quality of the rest of the game. One of their artists probably likes boobs, who are we to judge.

If we were talking about Tomb Raider or most fighting games my argument would probably be different as those games are often sold by pandering to the lowest common denominator but I don't think that's the case here. Dragon Age 2 will succeed or fail on the merits of its story and combat not its chest sizes.

I do agree that games and Hollywood are too close though, honestly it's stunting gamings growth, it isn't a healthy relationship.

Just once I'd like to see a thread discussing Metal Gear Solid's moral relativism or what makes Shadow of the Colossus so powerful or some other "games as art" discussion stretch on for seven pages instead this sort of argument. I don't quite grasp why everyone is so sensitive about this sort of thing that we can argue about breasts forever. Peter Molyneaux may have had a point:
"It's something about you Americans and nipples, there's something you hate! If this was Germany, I'd be romping around naked right now."

 

[Lexodus]

I find the most erotic part of a woman to be the boobies.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

snip

That would mean more to me if certain martial arts schools didn't hand out black belts like candy these days.

She was in karate for most of her youth and was teaching advanced classes by the time she was thirteen (I think). Regardless of how frivolous that particular school was with its black belts my assumption is that she may have picked up a move or two.

snip

Well, I think the reason that there's always an uproar is because the breasts are always big, pronounced and unrealistic. And Hollywood and the game industry don't or won't give us a middle ground! There's either hugely over-sexualized or skinny androgynous female characters. Because the industry focusses so much on the look of a character, we're forced to as well. Just once I'd like to see a tough female character that doesn't have to be gorgeous or big titted. Actually, Uncharted has a pretty good female character in Elena.

I also totally disagree that in time we'll be treated to diversity, especially if Hollywood is any indicator. And unfortunately, Hollywood and video games are uncomfortably close. Sure, there'll always be a minority of characters that appeal to us in a relatable or average way, but I do admit that video games are about fantasy and sometimes it's fun to play these hyper-stylistic archetypes and step outside of normality.

I agree that developers need to believe that what matters is personality and not cup size, but they don't yet and part of that reason is because the audience for games is the same one that reads comic books, watches movies and tv and is already demands the cookie cutter characters we're given.

Frankly I'm resolved to being one of the person that is not entertained by entertainment geared towards the LCD and will always be seeking out the original, niche, indie, less popular products in media.

I dunno, I think I may be the only person in this thread that trusts that Bioware of all developers will put some personality behind their large breasted characters. I don't think that Dragon Age 2 is a game where we're being pandered to. I imagine having large breasts isn't going to impact their sales in any meaningful way, positively or negatively because that isn't Bioware's audience for the most part. And if that's the case then the character models were a stylistic choice and says nothing about the quality of the rest of the game. One of their artists probably likes boobs, who are we to judge.

If we were talking about Tomb Raider or most fighting games my argument would probably be different as those games are often sold by pandering to the lowest common denominator but I don't think that's the case here. Dragon Age 2 will succeed or fail on the merits of its story and combat not its chest sizes.

I do agree that games and Hollywood are too close though, honestly it's stunting gamings growth, it isn't a healthy relationship.

Just once I'd like to see a thread discussing Metal Gear Solid's moral relativism or what makes Shadow of the Colossus so powerful or some other "games as art" discussion stretch on for seven pages instead this sort of argument. I don't quite grasp why everyone is so sensitive about this sort of thing that we can argue about breasts forever. Peter Molyneaux may have had a point:
"It's something about you Americans and nipples, there's something you hate! If this was Germany, I'd be romping around naked right now."

I don't think Bioware is that great with character development, myself. And I'd rather see people up in arms about oversexualization as opposed to welcoming, anyway.

 

[Dethpixie]

I don't think Bioware is that great with character development, myself. And I'd rather see people up in arms about oversexualization as opposed to welcoming, anyway.

I suppose this is where it becomes a matter of personal preference then. I think Bioware does a great job with their characters and I would rather see gamers more concerned with the content of games in terms of narrative than the aesthetics. Personally I don't even see Dragon Age 2 as oversexualization, there is some sexualization for sure but I wouldn't consider this overt by any means. It's not Soul Caliber or Dead or Alive, it isn't a sixty dollar jiggle simulator, it's some women with some breasts.

Again, I think we've probably come to the point in this argument where we can't really progress any further without it just being a matter of preference and what we individually consider overly sexual.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I don't think Bioware is that great with character development, myself. And I'd rather see people up in arms about oversexualization as opposed to welcoming, anyway.

I suppose this is where it becomes a matter of personal preference then. I think Bioware does a great job with their characters and I would rather see gamers more concerned with the content of games in terms of narrative than the aesthetics. Personally I don't even see Dragon Age 2 as oversexualization, there is some sexualization for sure but I wouldn't consider this overt by any means. It's not Soul Caliber or Dead or Alive, it isn't a sixty dollar jiggle simulator, it's some women with some breasts.

Again, I think we've probably come to the point in this argument where we can't really progress any further without it just being a matter of preference and what we individually consider overly sexual.

I would like to discuss one point in particular. I find that the aesthetics of a game can get in the way of the game's enjoyment and immersion just as much as a bad story or story telling. My first thought through the entirety of the first part of the demo was "WTF did they do to the darkspawn?". The new art style is one of my biggest criticisms of the game. I think debating aesthetics is very relevant in the discussion of a game's quality.

 

[beema]

Yeah when I saw the giant boobs and then them spattered with blood, I just laughed and thought it was too ridiculous and juvenile to play the game anymore. It completely broke any semblance of immersion.

 

[Dethpixie]

I suppose this is where it becomes a matter of personal preference then. I think Bioware does a great job with their characters and I would rather see gamers more concerned with the content of games in terms of narrative than the aesthetics. Personally I don't even see Dragon Age 2 as oversexualization, there is some sexualization for sure but I wouldn't consider this overt by any means. It's not Soul Caliber or Dead or Alive, it isn't a sixty dollar jiggle simulator, it's some women with some breasts.

Again, I think we've probably come to the point in this argument where we can't really progress any further without it just being a matter of preference and what we individually consider overly sexual.

I would like to discuss one point in particular. I find that the aesthetics of a game can get in the way of the game's enjoyment and immersion just as much as a bad story or story telling. My first thought through the entirety of the first part of the demo was "WTF did they do to the darkspawn?". The new art style is one of my biggest criticisms of the game. I think debating aesthetics is very relevant in the discussion of a game's quality.

Aesthetics is still a relevant discussion in terms of art style but when we're arguing over what's considered "overly sexual" that takes into consideration our own personal preferences and ideas on sexuality and I'm not sure how one debates that in a civilized manner. That said, I think I will agree with you on the art style. I preferred Origin's art style, it was a much more down-to-earth fantasy design, it had a "lived in" quality that I don't feel so much from the new art direction. I don't think that will really negatively impact my enjoyment of the game once I get into it though.

 

[GiantRaven]

Yeah when I saw the giant boobs and then them spattered with blood, I just laughed and thought it was too ridiculous and juvenile to play the game anymore. It completely broke any semblance of immersion.

Because 'giant boobs' are just unhead of, aren't they. I really don't get why people are getting so riled up about this. It's not like it's every character parading around with giant tits hanging out...

 

[Zom-B]

I dunno, I think I may be the only person in this thread that trusts that Bioware of all developers will put some personality behind their large breasted characters. I don't think that Dragon Age 2 is a game where we're being pandered to. I imagine having large breasts isn't going to impact their sales in any meaningful way, positively or negatively because that isn't Bioware's audience for the most part. And if that's the case then the character models were a stylistic choice and says nothing about the quality of the rest of the game. One of their artists probably likes boobs, who are we to judge.

If we were talking about Tomb Raider or most fighting games my argument would probably be different as those games are often sold by pandering to the lowest common denominator but I don't think that's the case here. Dragon Age 2 will succeed or fail on the merits of its story and combat not its chest sizes.

I do agree that games and Hollywood are too close though, honestly it's stunting gamings growth, it isn't a healthy relationship.

Just once I'd like to see a thread discussing Metal Gear Solid's moral relativism or what makes Shadow of the Colossus so powerful or some other "games as art" discussion stretch on for seven pages instead this sort of argument. I don't quite grasp why everyone is so sensitive about this sort of thing that we can argue about breasts forever. Peter Molyneaux may have had a point:
"It's something about you Americans and nipples, there's something you hate! If this was Germany, I'd be romping around naked right now."

Let's just say that in the end, I don't care about the breasts in DA2. That being said, playing the demo and seeing the character of the gray haired mother with exactly the same body model as the young "sexy" characters just looks odd, out of place and, frankly, lazy. They couldn't take the time to have more than one female body type? Lazy, lazy, lazy.

And for the record I'm Canadian and I love nipples. In fact I enjoyed some this morning. Sent the wife off to work in a good mood. Rar.

 

[Dethpixie]

And for the record I'm Canadian and I love nipples. In fact I enjoyed some this morning. Sent the wife off to work in a good mood. Rar.

Game developers are at times very lazy, this I can't argue.

Also, I too am Canadian, enjoyed nipples this morning, and sent my roommate to work in a good mood.

 

[GiantRaven]

That being said, playing the demo and seeing the character of the gray haired mother with exactly the same body model as the young "sexy" characters just looks odd, out of place and, frankly, lazy. They couldn't take the time to have more than one female body type? Lazy, lazy, lazy.

Wasn't the first Dragon Age also like this? I agree, more work should have gone into portraying age.

 

[Corpse XxX]

where are the pictures, i wanna see these girls...

 

[quantumsoul]

Do you have any idea how many mods for Origins there were to make breast bigger? Too many to count. They know what the fans want. I approve greatly.

Though I'll agree that the old women shouldn't look so young in body when the face isn't.

 

[Jason Danger Keyes]

Being a man who prefers rather small breasts I felt more at home in Mass Effect, where 90% of the ladies were B cup or smaller.

 

[icame]

It was kind of funny how in origins everyone and there mother (Literally) Had a double d. I guess they didn't add more "variety"

 

[Zom-B]

Also, I too am Canadian, enjoyed nipples this morning, and sent my roommate to work in a good mood.

That being said, playing the demo and seeing the character of the gray haired mother with exactly the same body model as the young "sexy" characters just looks odd, out of place and, frankly, lazy. They couldn't take the time to have more than one female body type? Lazy, lazy, lazy.

Wasn't the first Dragon Age also like this? I agree, more work should have gone into portraying age.

yes, I believe I remember noticing that all the females (aside from the dwarf ladies) had the same body, regardless of age in Origins as well.

 

[Dragonborne88]

How is this such a big deal. I saw it, went "Huh", then continued playing the game. Is it really worth the complaining that she has big boobs? Seems like a lot of stupid complaining. It's not the first game to have them, and not the last either.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

As a woman, I find it degrading when a game panders to the 16-year old pocket mining demographics by painting some huge titties on the girls, to drive sales. It's demeaning.

Its just not realistic either.

Comic books and video games, particularly those in the realms of fantasy and sci-fi have always tended to be consumed in significantly higher quantities by males rather than females. It's a broad generalisation yes, but no less true for it. But it isn't even strictly speaking a case of pandering or targetting a particular audience, but in many cases one of time and artistic style.

While video games, in comparison to films at least, have significantly longer to tell their stories, that doesn't entirely eliminate the need for conciseness. In a film for example, if you take a minor henchman he will simply have a look, usually a uniform and stand in the way of the protagonist for mere seconds. There's no time (or need) to tell his life story, show his upbringing and life choices that led him to that point. Even the film's hero(es) doesn't get the benefit of a complete backstory...just what the audience needs to know and usually paced and integrated into the narrative to evoke whatever emotions we're supposed to feel about them (saving further time). The same goes for characters in books as well (google for "round vs flat characters". No puns intended, it's genuine literary terminology!).

The large breasted woman from an artistic point of view is usually simply meant to imply femininity. Forget sexuality, just femininity. Just as a staff and robe immediately spells "wizard", platemail and a two-handed sword means "warrior", white hair/beard, wrinkles imply "age, wisdom", long hair, plaits and breasts means "woman". A dark beard on a character immediately gives you information about him at a glance saving the time of explaining. Having a short haired or modestly-chested (what a horrid term) female character does itself suggest different characteristics, but would usually only be used if there was a specific reason for it (eg. her character is such as it is and is itself important to the plot)...if there wasn't it would simply be easier and faster to have her femininity exaggerated somewhat and be done with it.

I'm not wholly defending it of course, though in the case of DAII specifically it makes no real difference (particularly once characters start donning shapeless armour), at least not to me personally. There certainly are enough video games out there to justify your feelings on the subject. Red Vs Blue made a funny video [http://redvsblue.com/archive/?id=1802&v=classics] that, whilst meant for entertainment does do a good job of highlighting just how silly some games can be. It's very tongue-in-cheek almost on the point of outright parody, but does show the outright silliness of some game designers. I don't think BioWare are one of them, every one of their characters is usually memorable, interesting and justified though perhaps a little larger than life....but it is a game and a fantasy one at that where larger than life characters are the norm.

Okay, here's a question for you. Cosmopolitan, Vogue, Esquire, advertising billboards, TV soaps and ads, the catwalk and even film have no end of made-up, photoshopped or visually-enhanced models and celebreties. As a woman, can you honestly say that fictional video game characters are any more demeaning than those in the above? I would hypothesise that although they exist in the real world, the gloss and photoshopped images make them almost as improbable (or more so) than their digital equivalents and further, create an even more unrealistic image of a woman (at least a video game is portrayed as pure fiction which in this case is further set against a fantasy backdrop).