Dragon Age - Duncan was NOT a good person (Spoiler warning)

[thejboy88]

Apologies in advance if this is a thread that's been done before.

As those who have played Dragon Age will ell you, in every origin story you pick, you are recruited one way or the other by a man named Duncan, who later inducts your into the order of the Grey Wardens. However, as I look back over those various origin stories, a thought comes into my mind. In every one of them, you are essentially being removed from a bad situation and thrust into this life of adventure, and Duncan is the one who holds the keys to get out.

Now, rather than simply helping you out of what various problems you're involved with, many of which would probably result in your death, he insists that you pay him back by joining his order. He knows that it's your only choice, that or death, thus giving the characters in question no real choice at all. He could have helped them out of the goodness of his heart or something, but no, he asks for something in return.

Now many at this point will be saying that it was necessity on his part. There was a blight at the time and his order needed every able body it could get it's hands on to fight against it, so obviously he'd want to recruit in any way he could. And that's true, desperate times and all that. But even so, he's treated as some sort of hero by characters like Alistair, who mourn his passing later on in the game. But he's no hero, but an opportunist to took whatever opportunity he had to achieve his end, even recruiting people who had little choice but to go with him in order to avoid death or worse.

And then there's Ser Jory. During the recruitment, one fellow candidate changes his mind about joining and wants to back out. Duncan responds to this by outright killing the guy. Again, he could have taken the good guy option and just let him go, this guy who has a wife and child waiting for him back home, but no, he gives him death instead. Now I know he claims self-defense in that by saying Jory was reaching for his sword, but as far as I'm concerned, he killed him just because he was trying to get out of what Duncan wanted for him, to be a Grey Warden.

I can understand if people don't think of Duncan as evil, because believe me there are far worse people in this game than him. But I cannot accept him as one of the good guys because of the reasons I've listed.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Most people exit basic training with alot of respect for their drill sergeant, who treated them like absolute shit for 2 months.

 

[Zhukov]

Disagree with the first bit. Giving someone an option that they would otherwise not have is not a bad thing. It's not necessarily a good or generous thing, but it's not bad. Before Duncan arrives the various characters have the options of death or bad stuff. After he arrives they have the options of death, bad stuff or the wardens.

Agree regarding Jory though. Self-defense my arse. If he was in fact drawing his sword it's because Duncan was trying to make him drink poison. After that, all the times when the game was expecting me to be sad about Duncan fell entirely flat.

...

Most people exit basic training with alot of respect for their drill sergeant, who treated them like absolute shit for 2 months.

I didn't like or respect my drill sergeant, but I didn't bear him any ill will either.

Drill sergeants do what they do as their job. It's impersonal and feigned. That usually becomes clear to the recruits by the time training is done.

Of course, some training staff do get a kick out being genuine arseholes and it shows. I had a corporal like that. No respect there.

 

[shrekfan246]

Well, ideally shouldn't the "good guys" not be sunshine and rainbows, let-me-return-this-teddy-bear-to-a-nine-year-old-girl-oh-please-I-don't-need-any-reward lawful goody two-shoes types?

Or, to take it from a different angle for those people who know A Song of Ice & Fire, the Grey Wardens of Ferelden can be loosely paralleled with the Night's Watch of Westeros. They're both ancient waning orders built from people of all backgrounds regardless of past, many of whom would like be dead if they weren't a member or joined because there was no alternative at the time, and they're both designed to protect their respective worlds from ancient evils the likes of which have largely been forgotten by the average folk. Sure, the Grey Wardens are a lot more prim and pompous from what we've seen, but most of the world of Dragon Age tends that way in direct comparison anyway.

He may not be a "good" guy, but he's still one of the "good guys".

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Duncan was never meant to be that good a guy. The only person who puts him on that pedestal is Alistair, a guy who views Duncan as a father figure. The Wardens are all about "the end justifies the means". They don't care about your feelings or aspirations. The only thing they care about is how well you handle a sword. They have a world to preserve and they will do anything to achieve that.

 

[dyre]

Silly argument. Sort of reminds me of the "was Hitler the good guy" arguments on the internet, in that the OP has a rather poor understanding of the phrase "good guy."

The Wardens thing is a shitty job, and yet they're responsible for saving the world. So I give him a pass for the questionable recruiting methods, because in this case the ends are absolutely necessary and he'd probably have a hard time achieving them with perfectly idealistic recruiting methods. As far as I'm concerned, having a world to live in is sort of paramount.

Regarding the specific case, why the hell would it be right to free you from good of his heart anyway? So here's a guy who offers a prisoner a tough job in return for freedom...you're saying the righteous alternative is to simply let the prisoner free? Societies have justice systems for a reason, you know. An exception to a guilty verdict can perhaps be made for "saving the world," but I don't see that an exception should be "just to be nice."

By the way, I don't think you understand the connotation of "opportunist." An opportunist is someone who takes advantage of the situation for personal benefit...taking advantage of desperate people to get them to sign up for an critical but shitty job (one that he himself is doing, so no hypocrisy there) to SAVE THE WORLD is completely different.

If you're saying he doesn't fit the "knight in perfect shining armor" trope, well, sure, but Dragon Age makes an attempt at being somewhat realistic so the good guys are the ones trying to do the best they can in a shitty situation.

 

[Gizmo1990]

I never considered Duncan to be a good man nor a bad one. He was a necessary man. He did some good things, some down right terrible things but all of them were necessary in order to ensure the world did not end in blood and fire.

 

[RJ 17]

Now, rather than simply helping you out of what various problems you're involved with, many of which would probably result in your death, he insists that you pay him back by joining his order. He knows that it's your only choice, that or death, thus giving the characters in question no real choice at all. He could have helped them out of the goodness of his heart or something, but no, he asks for something in return.

He doesn't ask for anything, he invokes the Right of Conscription and drafts the character's into the Grey Wardens. In this game's universe that was a fully accepted and upheld practice that everyone went along with and accepted. He's not just going to the slums and prisons looking for nobodies that he can use as fodder in his war, he's actively out on a recruitment drive looking for the best of the best. Be them a prodigy-mage from the Circle, a strong and skilled fighter from a powerful human noble family, the framed and betrayed prince of the dwarves, or the best warrior that the elves have to offer.

You have to keep in mind that the only way for Duncan to save the protagonists (in the scenario in which saving is necessary) is for him to invoke the right of conscription, otherwise the people that are holding the protagonist on pain of death would never release the protagonist (or in case of the Dalish Elves, Duncan could never force you to leave, but even your Keeper says you need to go with him).

"Well that just makes it worse! He's basically instituting a draft and forcing people to join his war!" Ahhh but in the game's universe, joining with the Grey Wardens is considered a fine and very high honor. They are revered and honored by people no matter where they go. Even the Dalish who distrust outsiders more than anyone else still respect the Wardens and honor their agreements to them. Aside from that, he only uses it as a formality. You're essentially offered a choice: stay where you are and face execution/exile/whatever or go with Duncan and join an honored league of warriors. For most people, that would be a pretty easy decision if you're living in that game's world.

The point is that he's not just helping the possible protagonists out of the kindness of his heart. He doesn't just have a magic "get out of jail free card" to wipe away all the transgressions your protagonist may have committed. The only power he has to save you is to invoke the right of conscription, without that you're doomed to whatever fate lies ahead of your protagonist by the end of the intro stories. I mean look at the end of the Mage intro: you're about to be executed or - even worse - made Tranquil because you were caught assisting a blood mage! Do you think there's any way the templars would even consider releasing you if it weren't for the time-honored tradition of upholding the Wardens' right of conscription? What I'm getting at is that you make it seem like Duncan, if he really wanted to, could just walk into a situation where your protagonist is getting the short end of the stick and say "Yeah, I think you guys should leave this one alone. They're clearly innocent of the crimes you say they committed because of x, y, and z. No, I don't need anything in exchange for this kindness, Protagonist, I just wanted to make sure the right thing was done. Have a great life." No, he sees the potential for greatness within your character and he wants/needs that greatness to help him fight off what he believes to be the massive threat of a true Blight. And considering the fact that there's so few Wardens in Fereldin to begin with it's no wonder he's on a big recruiting campaign.

Basically the game bends over backwards to show you how much of a fair, kind, and warm person that Duncan is. To say that he's a bad person just because he's trying to recruit the best of the best to help him fight a terrible darkness is a bit silly. "But what about killing off Jory?" Well at that point you're all Grey Warden Initiates, already part of the Grey Warden order on a technical basis. As such, you're bound to the rules and regulations of the Grey Warden's order. And according to those rules and regulations, once you get to the point where you're about to drink the blood there is no backing out...on pain of death.

Long story short: when you get right down to it you can't make character judgements based on our world's version of morality/rules/laws/etc, you have to look at the morality/rules/laws/etc of the world that you're looking at. Don't ask yourself "If this person was in our world, would I consider them a good person?" But rather the question is "In the context of this person's world, are they a good person?" Because to remove someone from their own world is to remove them from the context of their actions. And when you do that you can make a lot of "good guys" seem bad.

Look at the Jedi order. Are they a group of wise mentors who seek peace and balance in the galaxy by recruiting force-sensitive children and raising them to be honorable, kind-hearted, upstanding pillars of society? Or are they some crazy cult that drafts kids into a militaristic faction and then teach them how to fight and manipulate people's minds?

 

[Bebus]

Duncan was a curious character: his soft spokenness and gentle manner were a pleasant contradiction to his pretty ruthless nature, but it felt far too much like the game was trying far too hard to make you "like" him in a very short space of time - too short for such a complex personality.

One thing is for certain though, and that is that whatever his personality, he was an awful Warden Commander. He was living under a monarch who loved him, and gave his order massive praise and favour... and they numbered maybe 30? If that? What the hell? They should have been recruiting from all over the land with the King spearheading the effort. Pretty rubbish Commandering if you ask me.

 

[Kurai Angelo]

And then there's Ser Jory. During the recruitment, one fellow candidate changes his mind about joining and wants to back out. Duncan responds to this by outright killing the guy. Again, he could have taken the good guy option and just let him go, this guy who has a wife and child waiting for him back home, but no, he gives him death instead. Now I know he claims self-defense in that by saying Jory was reaching for his sword, but as far as I'm concerned, he killed him just because he was trying to get out of what Duncan wanted for him, to be a Grey Warden.

I'm fairly certain the Joining Ceremony itself was the most prevailing factor in Duncan's decision to kill Jory. He, and the Wardens in general, make a big secret of the source of their powers because of the negativity and risk surrounding the act of drinking Darkspawn blood. If he were to let Jory go, he would most likely tell, at least some, people about why he left and if people were to know how Grey Wardens come into being they could possibly suffer an even greater shortage of new recruits. Not only that, but if it was widely known knowledge that Grey Wardens were tainted it would provide even more ammunition for conspirators that would see them branded as traitors.

 

[CloudAtlas]

No, Duncan is not a good guy. Well, maybe if you're a die hard utilitarian, an the-ends-always-justify-the-means-person, then he might be a nice fellow, but otherwise? Nah. But then again his whole organization is fucked up.
All this talk about "we have to keep the joining ritual and the negative consequences of being a warden a secret because otherwise we wouldn't find any recruits". Yea no shit. A 2/3 chance of dying before even becoming a warden, a good chance dying while fighting the darkspawn, and even if you survive, having nightmares forever and dying at a young age... no, that won't look good on recruitment pamphlets. But that doesn't really totally excuse tricking people into probable death now, does it?

My first attempt in Dragon Age was with a City Elf Warrior, but that got boring extremely quickly. But I learned that being an elf in this world sucks. Then I tried an Elf Mage... where I learned that being a mage sucks too. Anyway, my elf mage got drafted for the Grey Wardens, where she learned that being a Grey Warden sucks too. I really should have just quit playing, that would have been the only consistent choice from an RP point of view. But I didn't, and I tried to save this world despite having been shafted so thoroughly by it, but of course it only got worse, because nobody ever wanted to help me without me solving all their petty problems. But at least the game offered me the choice to burn down the mage's tower and, at the end, to take the low road and let someone else sacrifice himself. After screwing me over all the time you expect me to sacrifice myself? Yea right... no thanks. Sucks it Alistair!

I usually try to play at least somewhat noble characters in RPGs, but if I attempted that, Dragon Age would probably have broken my spirit. The only way to endure this from beginning to end was to play as an ass, as someone who is really fed up with all of this... because that was pretty much how I felt about the game.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Well, ideally shouldn't the "good guys" not be sunshine and rainbows, let-me-return-this-teddy-bear-to-a-nine-year-old-girl-oh-please-I-don't-need-any-reward lawful goody two-shoes types?

Or, to take it from a different angle for those people who know A Song of Ice & Fire, the Grey Wardens of Ferelden can be loosely paralleled with the Night's Watch of Westeros. They're both ancient waning orders built from people of all backgrounds regardless of past, many of whom would like be dead if they weren't a member or joined because there was no alternative at the time, and they're both designed to protect their respective worlds from ancient evils the likes of which have largely been forgotten by the average folk. Sure, the Grey Wardens are a lot more prim and pompous from what we've seen, but most of the world of Dragon Age tends that way in direct comparison anyway.

He may not be a "good" guy, but he's still one of the "good guys".

exactly, he certainly isn't "bad", but that doesn't mean he has to be a fucking paragon of virtue, his number one concern is the grey wardens and preparing them to beat the blight, which in the end, saves the world so to speak, so the whole "end justifies the means thing" kind of kicks in, but he does try to do it the best way he can.

 

[skywolfblue]

Killing Ser Jory to keep the ritual a secret doesn't make much sense. There were less then honorable wardens in the past who could have blabbed it, and that seems to be upheld by the fact that most common people aren't exactly eager to sign up, and why the wardens are kind of hated/mistrusted, and in DA2 where Anders pretty casually brings the whole thing up to save Hawke's sibling in the Deep Roads.

So I find it hard to believe it was some big secret nobody knew about.

 

[Mikejames]

I saw Duncan helping the protagonist as more pragmatic than anything. He didn't come across as bad when he gives you a way out, but it was more for the greater good than to do you a favor.

I'll agree on calling him out for killing Jory though. Now that was a straight up dick move.

 

[BrotherRool]

I liked that it was an incredibly difficult and pretty horrible origin to being a grey warden... and then they waste it. They never acknowledge that it was dark and questionably wrong and they never give your player an option to say, heck no, I hate the grey wardens for what they did to me.

 

[Nokturos]

I thought Jory was a prick. I have never skipped that cutscene.

Anyway, Duncan is basically a well-mannered version of your typical drill sergeant. He might not yell your head off, but if you step out of line, he'll put you in your place. I liked him as a character, despite his brief involvement with the story.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Snip.

Another thing that I'd like to add is that it's continually hinted at that your character doesn't survive without Duncan. All of the origin stories exist at the same time, but only one of them survives because Duncan was there to save them. And if you're one of those types, OP, to not take such hindsight seriously, it's easy enough to look at each of the origin stories themselves just as an isolated portion to realize that you really wouldn't survive without Duncan's help. He's saving your life. I think it's fair to ask for your help in saving the world.

 

[00slash00]

I have no issue with him seizing the opportunity to get you to join the Wardens. Sure you don't really have much choice but seeing as he saved your life, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect you to fight for him. Killing the recruit, however, always seemed a little weird. It seemed needlessly brutal. The recruit didn't show signs of wanting to kill Duncan, he just wanted to get away. Duncan saying that it was self defense just makes him sound like the George Zimmerman of the Dragon Age games