Dragon Age II and the decline of the classic RPG

[Kotep]

Catherine is a puzzle platformer, just so you know. I'd imagine he might have been thinking of Tri-Ace, Mistwalker, the Shin Megami Tensei games from Atlus, the Tales Studio, Cavia (though they're dead now), and other smaller studios.

 

[Defense]

11) "It is simply representative of a shift in the industry and consumer tastes."

No, it (and comment 10)) is representative of a shift in DEMOGRAPHICS FOCUS in the industry.

an interesting point. Some people argues these changes are to follow the shift in the consumer tastes, but actually their real purpose is to change their target audience.

They claim "this is to improve previous genre", when you complain about dumbing down of the games.

Weird part is, jRPG developers constantly improve their games, create more detailed character stats/skills, prepare heavier stories.

However, wRPG developers veil their "boring stories, dialog wheels, dumbed down inventory/character screens" under the "evolution" name.

lol

Squenix have spent the last 10 years dumbing down FF games to the point of absurdity. And the stories are vacuous, shallow affairs with characters that are more and more irritating (and hell, I KNOW irritating - I played through FF8 about 3 times).

Dunno who else you might be talking about with regard to jRPG devs.

as like the only wRPG company is not Bioware, the only jRPG company is not square enix. there are also companies like atlus and sega.
i am not that into jRPGs, however I've seen and played Valkyria Chronicles II a while, and I think it has very interesting details&systems for a RPG.

What, like Catherine? That hentai RPG? Doesn't do anything for me...

lol @ hentai rpg

Maybe you should research a game before making assumptions about it. That's the kind of shit that made people believe Mass Effect was a porn simulator.

 

[Bonecrusher]

as like the only wRPG company is not Bioware, the only jRPG company is not square enix. there are also companies like atlus and sega.
i am not that into jRPGs, however I've seen and played Valkyria Chronicles II a while, and I think it has very interesting details&systems for a RPG.

What, like Catherine? That hentai RPG? Doesn't do anything for me...

no, like Valkyria Chronicles or Persona...

 

[Inkidu]

See the term RPG has come to mean anything that requires a doctorate in finite mathematics and probability to play, but, honestly. Every game just about is a damned role-playing game. Yes, I'm daring you to find one that's not.

 

[mireko]

What, like Catherine? That hentai RPG? Doesn't do anything for me...

I know at least two people have responded to this already, but Catherine is neither hentai nor RPG.

For an Atlus RPG, try Digital Devil Saga, Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne or Persona 4

[sub](or Persona 3: FES/Portable, or Strange Journey, or Devil Summoner, or Devil Survivor, or even the old Shin Megami Tensei I & II).[/sub]

 

[black_knight1337]

Diablo 3 is gonna bring arpgs back

 

[Limecake]

Personally I don't see what the fuss is all about, There will always be the 'niche' RPG games out there. The Elder Scrolls for example.

I think that Bioware was going for a more cinematic feeling with the Dragon Age series, combat didn't rely on heavy menu switching.

Mass Effect is no different, the secind installment was definitely more fast paced compared to the first one. Personally I prefer the slow paced RPG's but whatever.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

11) "It is simply representative of a shift in the industry and consumer tastes."

No, it (and comment 10)) is representative of a shift in DEMOGRAPHICS FOCUS in the industry.

an interesting point. Some people argues these changes are to follow the shift in the consumer tastes, but actually their real purpose is to change their target audience.

They claim "this is to improve previous genre", when you complain about dumbing down of the games.

Weird part is, jRPG developers constantly improve their games, create more detailed character stats/skills, prepare heavier stories.

However, wRPG developers veil their "boring stories, dialog wheels, dumbed down inventory/character screens" under the "evolution" name.

lol

Squenix have spent the last 10 years dumbing down FF games to the point of absurdity. And the stories are vacuous, shallow affairs with characters that are more and more irritating (and hell, I KNOW irritating - I played through FF8 about 3 times).

Dunno who else you might be talking about with regard to jRPG devs.

as like the only wRPG company is not Bioware, the only jRPG company is not square enix. there are also companies like atlus and sega.
i am not that into jRPGs, however I've seen and played Valkyria Chronicles II a while, and I think it has very interesting details&systems for a RPG.

What, like Catherine? That hentai RPG? Doesn't do anything for me...

Way to talk about a game that you know nothing about. It is neither hentai nor a RPG. And a genre that you know nothing about. JRPG devs? Try Atlus, NIS, Compile Heart...I do not like this attitude that JRPGs are inherently inferior to other genres.

EDIT: There are other JRPG devs out there other than Square.
EDIT 2: Worded incorrectly. They aren't really their own genre.

 

[Hexador]

I think saying RPGS are going to die out is a little extreme. They will just change, and who is to say that is a bad thing? You may look at Baldur's gate with teary eyed nostalgia, but I've played it, and as a modern-rpg lover who got his first taste of the genera with NWN I can only say the game was a frustrating waste of my time in comparison. Just as FPSes/other generas have begun to improve upon their foundations with the inclusion of RPG elements, so too will RPGs evolve. If that means abandoning the silent protagonist and top-down camera of DA:O for more stream-lined action packed play, so be it. Just because rpgs are headed in a different direction than they were in the past doesn't mean the genera is dying or that we, as gamers, are facing some major crisis. You can look back and feel nostalgic about Baldur's gate all you want, but imposing those positive feelings your nostalgia evokes onto the RPG genera will ultimately cause its demise, not its growth.

What I'm trying to say is:

Things change; usually for the better. If you are too caught up in the past to realize how great the future might be you obviously have no place in it.

 

[mireko]

Sorry guys, that comment was more or less made in jest. I was just poking fun.

PS/PS2 era is done for me, frankly. I tried to dive into a few old PS2 jrpgs a while back and it didn't work out.

Last jrpg I enjoyed (and now you're gonna come out and say that it isn't a proper jrpg presumably) was Blue Dragon, and that was a drop in the ocean at the time. Nothing since then.

Aw, nobody's angry. It's just hard to tell if someone is joking on the internet.

Still, Atlus is an interesting example of a developer holding on to both bases. Persona 4 (a 2009 release over here) had less complex combat/skill setups so it could focus on the dialogue and characterization while Strange Journey [small](a 2010 DS game that I admittedly haven't played..)[/small] was far more like the franchise's roots.

Now, I prefer Persona 4, but people who want something more like Nocturne will probably see which one is more similar to their favorites. When companies like Square-Enix and BioWare have so many divisions and subdivisions, one would think they could use at least one of them to make something that appeals to the cult. Or not, I don't know.


Square-Enix's Type-0 looks interesting, though. If getting rid of the classic combat is what is needed to undo the damage of the last few installments, then I'm all for it. Hey, I brought it around to be on-topic!
Combat at 7:41
Scythe fighting at 13:00
Summons at 15:28
Boss at 16:54
Airship dogfighting (?) at 19:26

[sub]
Never played Blue Dragon, but it is probably a real JRPG if it's a Japanese RPG.[/sub]

 

[DTWolfwood]

Baldur's Gate and Fallout are all games i did't play so i will not say, but ppl often have nostalgia goggles on when talking about classics.

I love what Yahztee said about listening to fans, DON'T. We haven't a clue what we want.

This is a really weird argument (or cliche), and I hate it.

No, man. I didn't like Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment or Morrowind because I put on "nostalgia googles" after 15 years.
I played and like them when they first published, and I still like them because of their features.

For example, Planescape Torment has a very twisted world (Planescape, of course), an interesting story (much more better than a "CHAMPION" of a copy-pasted map city), skill/stat based dialog options, different quest flows according to your choices.

It is not true that we don't know what we want, because we know.
Witcher 1: An interesting story (of course, it is converted from a novel), different quest flows according to your choices, interesting characters, suspenseful events.
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines: Different ways to complete a quest, dark and thrilling atmosphere, many options in dialog screens, alive world feeling, awesome characters and voice-overs.
Mask Of The Betrayer: Twisted storyline, weird characters, tactic based combat, very well written dialogs, alternative solutions.
Alpha Protocol: Different ways to complete a level (map), Changing your character's mood or personality during dialogs, dialog options affect the story outcome.

and there is a game called "The Age of Decadence", you know it? Many cRPG fan waits for it, it is a game made by fans and will include lots of features in it.

Game news websites don't mention that game, so many gamers don't even heard of it.

You realize that sentence was not a declaration that all feelings are clouded by them. Its only a statement that many will refuse to admit they are affected by it.

Heres an example [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8857-Extra-Punctuation-Building-Sequels-Badly] of when you listen to your fans too much. He makes a pretty convincing argument.

There is a reason DA2 sold well and y there is a massive disparity in the Review scores from official sources and that of the user on Meta. You, yourself, may not like the game for what its become, the majority disagrees, myself included.

I will not deny that DA2 is a pretty bastardized version of a what an RPG should be. I wouldn't even call it an RPG any more. And because I don't call one, I can enjoy the game for what it is, an Action Adventure with RPG elements. If i want an RPG i'll go back and play DA:O.

Another good example is Mass Effect. 1 had a plot that made sense but the game play was lacking. 2 comes out with a tighter game play mechanics but a plot that made NO sense [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8868-Experienced-Points-What-s-Wrong-with-Mass-Effect-2] and it damn near won a bunch of GOTY awards. Bioware made a business decision and made Mass Effect 2: Medieval. Look what its got them? lots of $$ and some angry fans that wanted more of the same

 

[Ninez]

All in all, I doubt any game types are actually dissapearing. They're just being molded together. Maby these days when graphics are somewhat quick to make good we could have time to write good stories and create believable enviroments.

Biggest downfall of DA2 was it's recycling of areas and retarded spawns of enemies that made no sense. You couldn't really plan fights forehand. It was always; run further down so you can take the groups as they spawn.

What I also didn't like about it was the camera. If you're adding tactical combat where placement etc is important. I want to be able to control the units like I do in strategy games. Playing a strategy game in 3rd or 1st person might be somewhat frustrating ;P

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Baldur's Gate and Fallout are all games i did't play so i will not say, but ppl often have nostalgia goggles on when talking about classics.

I love what Yahztee said about listening to fans, DON'T. We haven't a clue what we want.

This is a really weird argument (or cliche), and I hate it.

No, man. I didn't like Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment or Morrowind because I put on "nostalgia googles" after 15 years.
I played and like them when they first published, and I still like them because of their features.

For example, Planescape Torment has a very twisted world (Planescape, of course), an interesting story (much more better than a "CHAMPION" of a copy-pasted map city), skill/stat based dialog options, different quest flows according to your choices.

It is not true that we don't know what we want, because we know.
Witcher 1: An interesting story (of course, it is converted from a novel), different quest flows according to your choices, interesting characters, suspenseful events.
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines: Different ways to complete a quest, dark and thrilling atmosphere, many options in dialog screens, alive world feeling, awesome characters and voice-overs.
Mask Of The Betrayer: Twisted storyline, weird characters, tactic based combat, very well written dialogs, alternative solutions.
Alpha Protocol: Different ways to complete a level (map), Changing your character's mood or personality during dialogs, dialog options affect the story outcome.

and there is a game called "The Age of Decadence", you know it? Many cRPG fan waits for it, it is a game made by fans and will include lots of features in it.

Game news websites don't mention that game, so many gamers don't even heard of it.

You realize that sentence was not a declaration that all feelings are clouded by them. Its only a statement that many will refuse to admit they are affected by it.

Heres an example [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8857-Extra-Punctuation-Building-Sequels-Badly] of when you listen to your fans too much. He makes a pretty convincing argument.

There is a reason DA2 sold well and y there is a massive disparity in the Review scores from official sources and that of the user on Meta. You, yourself, may not like the game for what its become, the majority disagrees, myself included.

I will not deny that DA2 is a pretty bastardized version of a what an RPG should be. I wouldn't even call it an RPG any more. And because I don't call one, I can enjoy the game for what it is, an Action Adventure with RPG elements. If i want an RPG i'll go back and play DA:O.

Another good example is Mass Effect. 1 had a plot that made sense but the game play was lacking. 2 comes out with a tighter game play mechanics but a plot that made NO sense [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8868-Experienced-Points-What-s-Wrong-with-Mass-Effect-2] and it damn near won a bunch of GOTY awards. Bioware made a business decision and made Mass Effect 2: Medieval. Look what its got them? lots of $$ and some angry fans that wanted more of the same

Based on Vgchartz and other sources DA 2 underperformed, selling half as well as Origins. So I dont see how it was a good business decision. They completely missed why Origins sucked and so many didn't finish the game. They changed the few things that didn't need changing. Basically they took a bad game and dumbed it down.

Also your insuation that people are clouded by nostalgia in their praise for games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout is off simply because the games are not old enough for nostalgia. Go back to the goldbox games if you want to talk nostalgia.

 

[archaicmalevolence]

well classic rpgs were hard and unforgiving typically, and since the market has changed it's pretty risky for big developers to invest a lot of money into games like that.
Though sometimes the plot on them wasn't as good as they are now. e.g. The ultima series plot

 

[Trishbot]

I'm playing through Origins right now... and I STRUGGLE to enjoy it. The visuals are ugly, the combat is clunky, I spent hours hassling with the inventory and party stats, and every quest seems to last hours and hours longer than I wish it did.

But the story keeps me playing.

I'm also playing DA2. The combat is much faster and the party stats and inventory issues are streamlined... but that's it. The visuals are still surprisingly ugly, the environments are significantly redundant, and most criminal of all, the story lacks purpose and meaning. At least the first game laid out the stakes at the beginning (stop the archdemon) and gave you one amazing story arc. DA2 feels like three incomplete games squeezed into one, tenuously tethered together. I feel less invested in Hawke than I did with my Warden from DAO, and I'm far less happy with my party members (no, Anders, I don't like you. Leave me alone... no, Merril, I don't like you either. You look weird. Yes, Isabella, you're hot... and you're gonna give me syphilis....)

They tried to fix things that weren't broken and left broken things untouched. It's a disappointing game... and I've been FAR more enamored and pleased with Two Worlds 2 and its faults and The Witcher 2 and its strengths.