Dragon Age Writer Calls BioWare Forums "Toxic"

Starke

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Knight Templar said:
Staal said:
Maybe it has something to do with how BioWare has set itself up as preaching liberals wanting to enforce their world views on everyone else.
That is absurdly incorrect. How exactly is Bioware trying to force their views on every other human? By having some characters in their games be bi? Is that it?
Much as I don't want to agree with Staal on, well, anything. He's almost got a point here. Media, and this isn't Bioware itself, but, films, TV, books, and, in general, entertainment media as a whole do influence cultural norms over time. And I don't mean this in the conspiracy theory "the illuminati is mind controlling us" way, but simply, when something is presented as socially acceptable in media it becomes more socially acceptable in culture as a whole.

One of the least controversial ways you can see this in action (though, not one of the most accurate ways) is by following cigarette consumption in the United States from 1940-2000, and cross reference that with the quantity of tobacco products used in entertainment media.

As a whole, it can be a pretty fascinating field, or it can make you sound like you're wearing a tin foil hat... either way.

EDIT: I probably should point out that when it does come to sexuality, media influence tends to be more about mitigating xenophobia, rather than actually altering someone's sexuality.
 

Pr0

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I wonder if the toxicity has something to do with being told "MASS EFFECT 3 IS GOOD, EVERYONE SAYS SO, YOU JUST DON'T GET HOW GOOD IT IS, SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT ALREADY." pretty much over and over by BioWare and EA representatives, regardless of it probably being the most spectacularly stupid death of one of the most promising sci-fi franchises in recent video game history.

I mean that could have something to do with it.

Far as how toxic it is, I wouldn't know, I apparently got banned from the BSN for reasons they have chosen not to disclose to me....and I didn't even find that out til I saw this article and went to check the BSN and apparently I've been banned for over eight months.
 

Fredvdp

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CrazyCapnMorgan said:
I've been to the BioWare forums only once and I can say this:

I'm glad The Escapist has the rules set like they do. Hell, if The Escapist rules were in effect there, the mods would've had Hammer Streak-Banillionaires by now.

Which sounds sort of entertaining, actually! ^.^
The mods on the BioWare forums are very quick to ban people. For instance, there was a troll thread one day and someone in my friends list got permabanned for saying the OP was a troll.

Unfortunately they also ban people for criticizing EA. The same guy from the example above was later asked by EA to betatest one of their services and he posted a negative review in the off-topic forums, which resulted in a permaban of his second account. Another example: One of the BioWare moderators made a thread saying he never got his pre-order bonus for ordering Mass Effect 3 on the Origin website. Even though he said this in a polite manner, and it did turn out to be a common problem, he was stripped of his moderator status and banned from the forums.

I was once a member of a forum where you got banned for grammar errors. Forgot to capitalize the first word in a sentence? Banned for a day. I kinda liked those rules.
 

Staal

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Starke said:
Much as I don't want to agree with Staal on, well, anything.
While I agree completely what you say about media in the long run, that is not my point. Bi-sexuality is a complete non-issue in the grand scheme of things.

My problem/point is that complaints/opinions on certain topics are immediately met with unthinking aggression by a group in our society while they themselves are guilty of the exact same. It is the hypocrisy of it all that brings me to a boil.

BioWare has done the exact same thing as a cheap way to deflect criticism from their design failure. It must be a company culture of some sort and it is effecting the quality of their product. Somehow personal political agendas at that company is overshadowing the goal to make a good game. No wonder their forums are "toxic".
 

Fredvdp

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Ascarus said:
Scyla said:
Maybe they should start to make decent games....

:p
yep. while two of their last three games have been commercial successes (DA2 and ME3) the quality has dropped considerably. ME3 was 90% good so i don't knock it too hard, but DA2 was an absolute shit storm of crap, problems and repetition. I never played SW:TOR but given how quickly subs ran away and they went to a free MMO service speaks volumes to its longevity.
SWTOR is a good game, but it shares many design elements with their single player games. The problem with SWTOR is that it's not the kind of game that you keep playing, and that seems quite essential in a subscription based MMORPG.

And to respond to the other quote: I think BioWare still makes great games. The problem is that they have raised the bar in some of their past games that they couldn't meet it. Mass Effect 3 is a very good game, but it's clearly the weakest out of the three. I could quote mutliple reasons, none of them to do with the ending, but I don't want to go too far off-topic.

I've been following Gaider's posts for a while now and see what crap he has to put up with. I agree with him on this topic. The BSN forums are quite depressing.
 

thanatos388

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Starke said:
thanatos388 said:
I think you misunderstood. It was that people wanted a refusal ending that somehow ends with you winning against the reapers with your magical EMS. Yes the whole ending is bullshit, the whole game has a horrible plot. Why could't Shepard tell the kid to just leave? Hey your wrong the solution doesn't work so just turn off the reapers and go away. But no Bioware wanted a dark ending and people want to somehow just have a way of winning without starchild.
From what I saw it wasn't so much that people wanted to tell the Starchild to fuck off so much as just cutting the bastard, and giving some actual closure to the game, instead we got the extended cut which actually added more nauseating exposition... and the option to snuff the little bastard... so, I guess partial credit.

So far as a "dark ending." Bioware has gotten it in their heads that they're now mature adults writing for mature adults, and instead they've gone from writing "teen fantasy" to writing "angsty teen fantasy". In other words, Mass Effect was screwed.

EDIT: And yes, you're right, I did read what you said as, "all them whiners just wanted a happy ending", which, I've honestly seen off enough of Bioware's fans for it to start to blur together.
Yep i agree completely. The writers need to learn from this and maybe not write about sci-fi again for a while. The concepts in the ending were just too big for them to understand and write about. You'd think they've never seen 2001. And isn't all video game writing basically "angsty teen fantasy" now that every game has to be dark and gritty?
 

Knight Templar

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Staal said:
You are a bigot dude.
For you to say this as a response, you must not properly understand the word. Perhaps you are the kind of fool who thinks noting bigotry is bigotry? Either way, you are vastly incorrect and I would say you know this and simply want to sing the word around in an empty attempt to make some point.

Wanting a romance option of your own race is completely natural.
So? That doesn't address the point.


You don't seem to have a problem that black people would require one of their race, in fact you seem support it.
I have said nothing to that effect, this is a red herring and a strawman.

If anyone is the racist, it is you.
This seems to be just like your failed use of the word "bigot" against me. Fort somebody who takes such, almost personal, offence to such words you don't seem to know how to use them correctly. I think that explains a lot.

People are entirely justified to not like the game
But to go beyond that and say it is wrong of the game? To demand that they get what they want? That is not ok, and that is what is the issue here, as you have been told many times.

But I doubt you troll their website going "racist, racist, bigot".
"their website" What website belonging to who?
And you're saying that I am simply trolling you here?

I have not called you a bigot a racist or a troll, you have called me all these things in a blatant attempt to offend me. You sir, are making an ass of yourself.
To be honest a lot of the people I saw posting back in 2009/2010 were expressing themselves just fine. I.e. I would like a white human female because that is my demographic, which also happens to be the majority.
That isn't what I saw. I saw very few people at all complaining that they didn't get their fetish met. But among those that did, many were bigoted.

hen hypocrites like you
How does that word apply to me?
Honestly, are you just throwing words I've used at me in the hope you'll use them correctly? Because you are not doing so.

climb into the debate of course and fling the term bigot around.
Only when the term can be applied. And even then I like to avoid it.


And you don't just use it for the tiny minority that don't want any mention of bi-sexuality in the game,
THose are not the only people who can be bigots. That you think they are is strange.

you use it to paint anyone that dares complain about anything.
This is a blatant lie (or prehaps you simply didn't read all I wrote), I have made clear people complaining about other topics are most definitely not bigots because of it.

[
Instead of admitting that yes the bi-option should've been done better
Thats not what the complaint was about, sothat would have been a strange reply.


which as I have clearly proven it was not.
You have utterly failed to do so, you have made numerous mentions of other different arguments many of which I agree are not bigoted, but this is in no way the same.

Unless of course you ready to admit that gay people asking for a gay option is also bigotry.
Thats not even the same situation.
See if there's no gay option at all, they have nobody to romance at all no matter tastes. But straight or gay, options are present here and thus such a consideration is no longer relevant as the issue is resolved. The situations are in some ways similar, but they are functionally different for the purposes of this conversation. Its not as if there was nobody for a straight person to romance, if there was nobody then perhaps this line of argument should be followed. But as it stands this is simply another indication you do not fully understand the topics at hand.

I see you still haven't responded to that.
So that what your mangled question at the end of your post was about. Well I didn't answer it then because you had phrased it in such a way I couldn't understand.
As you can see, now that you have properly expressed yourself, the question is answered.

I maintain almost no one would have noticed or said anything if BioWare had done it properly without smearing it into every nook and cranny.
If you are attempting to say that they did such with bisexuality, then you are clearly wrong. As already noted, for two romance options you would never even know they were bi without repeat playthroughs. If you cannot even tell the bi characters are bi, then that's hardly putting it everywhere.
Your paranoia is interesting however.

But what pray tell would you have done better? You have not said what Bioware has done wrong, other than have the characters be bi at all. So what is the issue you would correct?




Which is what makes me suspect in hindsight that they do have an agenda they are pushing.
You previously said they are not pushing one in their games, now you say they are.
Which is it?


Hmm... we do know this? Because they said so? Right.
Because we can read their design plans and thoughts, how they go look at writing.

But if you do not trust anything they say at all, then your entire argument falls into itself as nothing they say can be viewed to have any meaning, including the things you rest your argument on.

It is how it feels.
For gods sake I asked how does it feel that way. Is there anything to suggest that this feeling is accurate?
No offence but your "feelings" alone mean jack shit, and a circular argument certainly isn't one you should use.


I was really bothered.
You previously said you were not.

The overall feel.
Again this is not an argument, this is simply you repeating your opinion, with nothing to support it. And with nothing to support it, I can discard it with nothing.
This is how a discussion works.


Many people in the subsequent months expressed their disappointment in a much better way.
I have seen that and the way you describe them going is not what I viewed. There were still instances of demands and cries the game was worng for not scraching their sexual ich, and as already noted, that's not valid.


You are denying someone their right to identify with their own race
No I am not, for gods sake stop making stuff up about me.
Also, I find it very telling you think your race is "the core of your identity".


Someone that wants a white romance
Why do you persist in ignoring important details, it is not a simple want here, but also the demand and the cry that the game is wrong for not having it.

Besides all this bitching when there was a white person to romance in the bloody game. Not that physical appearance is the same as fucking gender. How you confuse the two I will never know.

Should I list the dozens, if not hundreds, of blogs and articles about women/blacks/gays etc complaining that they are not catered too? I don't think I will but we both now they are all over.
And utterly irrelevant. having a possible option and catering to your exact tastes is not the same thing, again, a very common mistake from you.

No, you have already indicated that anyone that is white and prefers a white romance option is racist.
No I have not, read every word I use next time.

Demand/request/complain is all semantics.
No it is not, there is a very clear and important differeance between saying you would like it if X happened, and demanding that others give you X.
This is so blindingly obvious I do not know how you wouldn't notice.

It appeared that way to me.
But since that is not how it is that appearance was not true. And this means nothing. This is why being able to have something other that feelings is important.


Many, many people shares this opinion.
This is yet another logical fallacy, one you have used many times but not so blatantly as now. Appeal to popularity.

How can the character be both straight and bi? You are either one or the other.
That doesn't follow as a response.


BioWare can have bi-characters but it makes no sense for them all to be bi.
They are not so no problem.

A minor issue but still it was a legitimate complaint and has nothing to do with bigotry.
It wasn't the complaint and isn't true if it was. So you are incorrect.

Since you cast the first stone with statements that white people are not allowed to prefer a white romance option or else they are racist the hypocrite tag is firmly on your forehead.
Except I never said that.
So quick to judge me when you know so little. And I'd said nothing to you.

It is exactly the same argument. How does it differ?
Because they are not demanding that more black people be put in, and they are also talking in general terms, not about their sexual tastes.



By your logic gay people are bigots for requesting a gay option in a game.
DA2 has straight options, thats the thing about bi characters they serve as both straight romance options and homosexual ones. You're not seriously trying to argue that it doesn't have anyone for a straight male to romance and this is the thrust of the argument are you? Because thats the only way half of what you say makes any sense, and its wrong.

No wonder you don't understand the words I use, you hardly seem to understand yourself.

EDIT:

Starke said:
I readily recognise this impact you speak of. However to have something in a work and for this impact to have some noticeable effect is not the same as anything being forced on anyone.
And when I asked that question my mind was framed in terms of the games, which Staal says he isn't talking about. He has since somewhat contradicted himself on that so I'm not longer sure even he knows what he meant.
 

Machine Man 1992

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Hey Gaider, I have song I'd like to play for you. It's a sad little melody played on the world's smallest violin.

You're an adult. Not only that, a content creator, fucking act like one.
 

Staal

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Knight Templar said:
Staal said:
You are a bigot dude.
For you to say this as a response, you must not properly understand the word. Perhaps you are the kind of fool who thinks noting bigotry is bigotry? Either way, you are vastly incorrect and I would say you know this and simply want to sing the word around in an empty attempt to make some point.
Because you flatly stated that anyone that dares want a white romance is a racist.

Knight Templar said:
You don't seem to have a problem that black people would require one of their race, in fact you seem support it.
I have said nothing to that effect, this is a red herring and a strawman.
It is not a strawman. You are in support of other groups having their preferred options/agendas realized but somehow if the "majority" is upset that theirs is not there you call them bigots.

Knight Templar said:
If anyone is the racist, it is you.
This seems to be just like your failed use of the word "bigot" against me. Fort somebody who takes such, almost personal, offence to such words you don't seem to know how to use them correctly. I think that explains a lot.
I don't take offence to the game or any of that. Hypocrites offend me that sit there on their smug high horse calling people bigots when they actively reject a white person's right for a white romance.

Knight Templar said:
People are entirely justified to not like the game
But to go beyond that and say it is wrong of the game? To demand that they get what they want? That is not ok, and that is what is the issue here, as you have been told many times.
Wrong/demand = semantics. Feminist groups get very shrill about no proper female characters. The delivery of ones opinion does not make you a bigot. It might make you a pain in the ass though.

Knight Templar said:
But I doubt you troll their website going "racist, racist, bigot".
"their website" What website belonging to who?
And you're saying that I am simply trolling you here?

I have not called you a bigot a racist or a troll, you have called me all these things in a blatant attempt to offend me. You sir, are making an ass of yourself.
As in whichever website or forum they might express that opinion in. Just a general term. It might even have been on this one. I don't know, don't care. All I know is that you are a hypocrite for calling people bigots when you deny them their identity the very next breath.

Knight Templar said:
To be honest a lot of the people I saw posting back in 2009/2010 were expressing themselves just fine. I.e. I would like a white human female because that is my demographic, which also happens to be the majority.
That isn't what I saw. I saw very few people at all complaining that they didn't get their fetish met. But among those that did, many were bigoted.
Fetish? A white guy that wants a white girl as a romance option is a fetish? On what planet do you live?

Knight Templar said:
climb into the debate of course and fling the term bigot around.
Only when the term can be applied. And even then I like to avoid it.
I would never have guessed that.

Knight Templar said:
And you don't just use it for the tiny minority that don't want any mention of bi-sexuality in the game,
THose are not the only people who can be bigots. That you think they are is strange.
I don't. You are one as well by holding that opinion the majority of the population must suppress a core aspect of their identity.

Knight Templar said:
you use it to paint anyone that dares complain about anything.
This is a blatant lie (or prehaps you simply didn't read all I wrote), I have made clear people complaining about other topics are most definitely not bigots because of it.
By calling white guys that prefer white girl romances a racist is doing exactly that.

Knight Templar said:
[
Instead of admitting that yes the bi-option should've been done better
Thats not what the complaint was about, sothat would have been a strange reply.
Ultimately it is what the complaint is about. It was so badly done and couple with the romance issue it is not surprising it caused a stir. For BioWare then to get all smug and condescending about it paints them in a very bad light as to their original motives. I.e. they wanted to thumb their noses at white males. Something you seem to enjoy doing to. Hence, you being a...

Knight Templar said:
Unless of course you ready to admit that gay people asking for a gay option is also bigotry.
Thats not even the same situation.
See if there's no gay option at all, they have nobody to romance at all no matter tastes. But straight or gay, options are present here and thus such a consideration is no longer relevant as the issue is resolved. The situations are in some ways similar, but they are functionally different for the purposes of this conversation. Its not as if there was nobody for a straight person to romance, if there was nobody then perhaps this line of argument should be followed. But as it stands this is simply another indication you do not fully understand the topics at hand.
It is exactly the same situation. White guy wants white girl romance. Gay guy wants gay romance. And there certainly was no white human female to romance.

It can't get more clear cut than that. But since you deny a white male's identity and his desire to pursue it in the game I am not surprised you refuse to accept this fact.

Knight Templar said:
I maintain almost no one would have noticed or said anything if BioWare had done it properly without smearing it into every nook and cranny.
If you are attempting to say that they did such with bisexuality, then you are clearly wrong. As already noted, for two romance options you would never even know they were bi without repeat playthroughs. If you cannot even tell the bi characters are bi, then that's hardly putting it everywhere.
Your paranoia is interesting however.

But what pray tell would you have done better? You have not said what Bioware has done wrong, other than have the characters be bi at all. So what is the issue you would correct?
I have no problem with their original design as I have said repeatedly, even if I thought it was lazy. What got to me was their pathetic disregard and smug contempt of the complaints that were made regarding the design and the lack of a white female romance option. They washed it away with "ah, you are just bigots". That is unacceptable as their design is lazy and they did not include a white female romance option.

The only thing that I would do different is if you are going to have a bi/gay character then make them so and not whichever the player wants to play it. It just doesn't sound right. And I noticed it on my first play through.

Knight Templar said:
Which is what makes me suspect in hindsight that they do have an agenda they are pushing.
You previously said they are not pushing one in their games, now you say they are.
Which is it?
I have only begun to suspect that they are after their response to the complaints. When I first played the game I didn't think much of it at all because it was such a minor thing.

Knight Templar said:
Hmm... we do know this? Because they said so? Right.
Because we can read their design plans and thoughts, how they go look at writing.

But if you do not trust anything they say at all, then your entire argument falls into itself as nothing they say can be viewed to have any meaning, including the things you rest your argument on.
Bleh can't be bothered to look up what my comment was in response to. I think we can safely say from their response to the complaints that some writers at least do harbour some agendas. The smugness definitely gives it away.

Knight Templar said:
It is how it feels.
For gods sake I asked how does it feel that way. Is there anything to suggest that this feeling is accurate?
No offence but your "feelings" alone mean jack shit, and a circular argument certainly isn't one you should use.
Of course my feelings mean something. It is what I experience as I play the game. It is what makes it a good game to me. I am not a game designer or what have you so I am not really interested in analyzing exactly how they should do it differently. All I do know is that the generalized bi-status of characters was lazy. I admit it is a useful way to reduce development costs but that doesn't change the "feeling" I get when I play.

It didn't make me not like the game. And perhaps a request to do it differently is unreasonable due to development costs. But then that is the way BioWare should have framed their response. Not "get stuffed bigots". They are a major company and that response was ridiculous.

Knight Templar said:
I was really bothered.
You previously said you were not.
Typo. "I was not really bothered". Sue me.

Knight Templar said:
Many people in the subsequent months expressed their disappointment in a much better way.
I have seen that and the way you describe them going is not what I viewed. There were still instances of demands and cries the game was worng for not scraching their sexual ich, and as already noted, that's not valid.
The same way in which a gay man can legitimate complain he does not have a gay option in the game so can a white guy complain he does not have a white option. It is exactly the same.

Knight Templar said:
You are denying someone their right to identify with their own race
No I am not, for gods sake stop making stuff up about me.
Also, I find it very telling you think your race is "the core of your identity".
It is one of your cores yes. As is your language, religion, nationality, hair colour etc. They all form part of your identity.

And you specifically stated that... it is borderline racist to want a white romance. You are exactly saying that someone should not be allowed to associated with their own race. That is racist.

Knight Templar said:
Someone that wants a white romance
Why do you persist in ignoring important details, it is not a simple want here, but also the demand and the cry that the game is wrong for not having it.

Besides all this bitching when there was a white person to romance in the bloody game. Not that physical appearance is the same as fucking gender. How you confuse the two I will never know.
Because demand/want might be whiny but it does not justify you calling them a bigot. That is one of my major gripes here. The game itself is not at issue. It is your hypocritical attack on others.

Knight Templar said:
Should I list the dozens, if not hundreds, of blogs and articles about women/blacks/gays etc complaining that they are not catered too? I don't think I will but we both now they are all over.
And utterly irrelevant. having a possible option and catering to your exact tastes is not the same thing, again, a very common mistake from you.
It is exactly the same thing because they are also asking to have their specific tastes catered to. And there is nothing wrong with that. You just seem to have double standards.

Knight Templar said:
No, you have already indicated that anyone that is white and prefers a white romance option is racist.
No I have not, read every word I use next time.
Really...

Knight Templar said:
Staal said:
But if a section of the community goes "where is my white human romance option" it is a valid complaint since there wasn't one.
How is that a valid complaint?
Honestly that's borderline racist.
There it is, every word.

Knight Templar said:
Demand/request/complain is all semantics.
No it is not, there is a very clear and important differeance between saying you would like it if X happened, and demanding that others give you X.
This is so blindingly obvious I do not know how you wouldn't notice.
Semantics. Demand/ask or whatever. Not justification to be calling people bigots.

Knight Templar said:
It appeared that way to me.
But since that is not how it is that appearance was not true. And this means nothing. This is why being able to have something other that feelings is important.
Once again you are harping on the game. The game is a non-issue. The issue is you calling people with a legitimate complaint a bigot and BioWare trying to hide complaints about the game design behind petty insults.

Knight Templar said:
Since you cast the first stone with statements that white people are not allowed to prefer a white romance option or else they are racist the hypocrite tag is firmly on your forehead.
Except I never said that.
So quick to judge me when you know so little. And I'd said nothing to you.
I quoted your exact words above. In black and white.

Knight Templar said:
It is exactly the same argument. How does it differ?
Because they are not demanding that more black people be put in, and they are also talking in general terms, not about their sexual tastes.
Demand is just semantics. It does not justify your use of the word bigot. It is not in general terms. Female players want more strong female characters. Gay players want more gay characters. Black players want more black characters. They are all specific. There is no difference.

You are on a hiding to nothing I am afraid.

Knight Templar said:
By your logic gay people are bigots for requesting a gay option in a game.
DA2 has straight options, thats the thing about bi characters they serve as both straight romance options and homosexual ones. You're not seriously trying to argue that it doesn't have anyone for a straight male to romance and this is the thrust of the argument are you? Because thats the only way half of what you say makes any sense, and its wrong.

No wonder you don't understand the words I use, you hardly seem to understand yourself.
That comment was referring to you stating that it is "borderline racist" to request a white female option if you are white. And I quoted you above on that, so you definitely said it.

The "bi" design option is a non-issue as I said time and time again. I don't care. Most people don't care. However, the first time I did play it I felt it was lazy and cheap. Yes, those are just "my feelings". I am entitled to them.

From that however flows the two main issues now;

(1) BioWare deflecting criticism of their design by accusing the complainers to be bigots. Pathetic.

(2) There was no white human female romance option and you calling anyone that wants one a racist. Want=demand=request, it doesn't matter how you dice the semantics.
 

sumanoskae

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Yeah, I have to agree. I was in favor of Mass Effect 3's ending change, but this didn't help.

What's more annoying than someone arguing against you? someone arguing the same point you are, for all the wrong reasons.
 

Ascarus

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Starke said:
Thing is, even if the ending isn't 90% of the game, it is the last impression the game leaves with you on the way out. So, while you can say, empirically, that it's still a good game because only the last fifteen minutes sucked, there's still the problem that your consumer's lasting impression is going to be of that last fifteen minutes. When Bioware releases a new product down the line, a lot of consumers who managed to get to the ending will evaluate it in that light. (Not all, but a lot.)

Honestly, with a piece of entertainment, the place to suck, if you have control over that, is in the middle. It doesn't sour the first impression, and it isn't what players/readers/viewers will take with them when they're done.
i completely agree with your assessment about the lasting impression of the final moments of a game impacting the player's overall view of the game. however in my experience as a gamer of decades, game endings are (almost) always sub-par to down right lazy. it's almost as if developers as a group believe the game is about the journey and not the ending. and while that may be true on some level, as a gamer i used to get very annoyed and let down at the lackluster reward for my efforts after finishing a game. now, given that i simply don't expect much, i am rarely terribly disappointed.

however ME3s ending was so terrible in so many ways that i found it very hard to let go of. it hasn't stopped me personally from being excited by upcoming bioware titles, but for me to stay a supporter bioware has a lot of ground to make up for given the embarrassing effort they put into DA2 and the train wreck ending they gave me for mass effect.
 

Starke

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Knight Templar said:
EDIT:

Starke said:
I readily recognise this impact you speak of. However to have something in a work and for this impact to have some noticeable effect is not the same as anything being forced on anyone.
And when I asked that question my mind was framed in terms of the games, which Staal says he isn't talking about. He has since somewhat contradicted himself on that so I'm not longer sure even he knows what he meant.
Yeah, the reason I singled out smoking, as opposed to interracial relationships or homosexuality isn't just because it's less controversial, but also because you can actually look at half a century of data for it, and, unfortunately, you need half a century of data to really see the pattern. Anything where your effect is fifteen years behind your cause will be an absolute pain to model.

But, you're also right, it's not forcing ideas on people, just adjusting norms, not brainwashing.
Staal said:
Starke said:
Much as I don't want to agree with Staal on, well, anything.
While I agree completely what you say about media in the long run, that is not my point. Bi-sexuality is a complete non-issue in the grand scheme of things.

My problem/point is that complaints/opinions on certain topics are immediately met with unthinking aggression by a group in our society while they themselves are guilty of the exact same. It is the hypocrisy of it all that brings me to a boil.

BioWare has done the exact same thing as a cheap way to deflect criticism from their design failure. It must be a company culture of some sort and it is effecting the quality of their product. Somehow personal political agendas at that company is overshadowing the goal to make a good game. No wonder their forums are "toxic".
To be fair, a lot of your posts read like "unthinking aggression", so there's a bit of a paradox here. And I'm not trying to be my normal abrasive jackass self here.

Though, you're actually bringing up two separate issues, a lot of mainstream media, at least in the US, has had an agenda of reducing xenophobia, and honestly, this has been going on for decades. It's been one of the most prominent focuses of science fiction since the genre's inception, and continues to be. I probably shouldn't call it an "agenda", but the senseless xenophobia in culture at large is something many writers have felt the need to speak out against, and because of cultural norms, they find themselves needing to speak out against it in an artificial context.

This gets into your comment about complaining about not having a romantic partner in Dragon Age 2 who is the same race as your protagonist... except, that's not true, there is one. Isabella. Because, skin color is incidental in DA2, for the game's context, the interracial relationship is with Merril or Fenris, because they're elves, and Hawke is human.

Where DA2 (and for that matter, Dragon Age Origins) talk about race and religion is through the use of fantasy races, the Qunari, the Elves, and the Dwarves, instead of through our preconceived notions of what race is or isn't.

As for BSN's toxicity, really it has more to do with EA forcing them to pump out titles before they're ready (I've seen unconfirmed reports that DA2 was actually still in an Alpha state when EA sent it out to die), and Bioware's really shitty response to their own communities grievances on the site. It's set up an environment where anything short of bloodcurdling rage is ignored out of hand by the devs, and bloodcurdling rage is responded to with smart ass blow offs. Their politics have almost nothing to do with it.
 

Starke

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Ascarus said:
Starke said:
Thing is, even if the ending isn't 90% of the game, it is the last impression the game leaves with you on the way out. So, while you can say, empirically, that it's still a good game because only the last fifteen minutes sucked, there's still the problem that your consumer's lasting impression is going to be of that last fifteen minutes. When Bioware releases a new product down the line, a lot of consumers who managed to get to the ending will evaluate it in that light. (Not all, but a lot.)

Honestly, with a piece of entertainment, the place to suck, if you have control over that, is in the middle. It doesn't sour the first impression, and it isn't what players/readers/viewers will take with them when they're done.
i completely agree with your assessment about the lasting impression of the final moments of a game impacting the player's overall view of the game. however in my experience as a gamer of decades, game endings are (almost) always sub-par to down right lazy. it's almost as if developers as a group believe the game is about the journey and not the ending. and while that may be true on some level, as a gamer i used to get very annoyed and let down at the lackluster reward for my efforts after finishing a game. now, given that i simply don't expect much, i am rarely terribly disappointed.

however ME3s ending was so terrible in so many ways that i found it very hard to let go of. it hasn't stopped me personally from being excited by upcoming bioware titles, but for me to stay a supporter bioware has a lot of ground to make up for given the embarrassing effort they put into DA2 and the train wreck ending they gave me for mass effect.
I actually remember Crytek saying, basically, "we never expected anyone would get that far", when talking about the ending of Far Cry. It's certainly true that most players never see the ending of any given game, for whatever reason. I'm not sure if that usually filters back into this idea that the ending can suck, because no one will see it, or if it's something else. But, you're making a pretty valid argument there. Just looking at my favorates list on steam, the only games I see there with non-shitty endings are Spec Ops, Dawn of War II, and arguably Space Marine and The Darkness II. Well, and Civ V if I'm being a smartass.

I do know, with ME3, things were a bit different, because it was the ending of a trilogy, and because Bioware went out of their way to make sure everyone could get to the ending there were a lot of very unhappy players out there. Though, honestly, I'd say most of ME3's failing was more because Casey Hudson decided to sequester himself in a room to write up the ending. While most of the game's script went through a peer review process where the writers gleefully told each other "that was stupid, do better", the ending was produced in a vacuum... and, honestly, if as a writer, you ever find yourself writing in a vacuum, STOP, find someone else to look at your work, and tell you what does and doesn't work, or you too can produce the ending of ME3... or something.

The irony is, ME3 really benefited, most of it's writing was better than the previous two games. There was still some errant stupids, like Kai Leng, and Timmy, and as a trilogy it felt a lot more like part 2 than part 3, but, the idea that "hey, if we work together maybe it will be better" really paid off. And then... Shepard kills themselves. Whoo, go team.

Sorry, I'm ranting about something completely different now... >.<

Honestly, and I should probably sit this one up there, the ending of Mass Effect 3 isn't something that really bugs me. There's about twenty other things that filter up from earlier in the trilogy that really killed it for me, so by the time I actually got to the ending of ME3, I was actively in this kind of MST3K mode, and in that sense, the Starchild was freakin' gold. Not how Bioware intended the game to be played, but still.
 

Bullfrog1983

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Legion said:
"We fight or we die! That's the plan!"
"This isn't about strategy or tactics. It's about survival!"

It's like a cheesy action movie one-liner but it doesn't even make any sense.

I mean seriously, who did they expect to hear that dialogue and think anything else other than "What the fuck?"
I think if I heard my commander say something like that I'd be thinking "This guy is an idiot and we're all going to die!"

I haven't played Mass Effect 3 so I can't comment on that, but if he is the one who took over control of Dragon Age then I think the fans might have something to gripe about because it was basically a roundhouse punch in the face of their nebulous "core fans" to whom they are so committed considering the repeating scenery and the ending which basically says "It doesn't fucking matter what you did in the game because it is all the same in the end" or at least that was what the storyteller implied in my ending.
 

Batman

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Knight Templar is the most eloquent bastard that I had the pleasure of reading. I take my hat off for your very thorough smiting of forum goons.
 

Happiness Assassin

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The BSN has always been a pit of vitriol and unholy anger. I frequent that site quite often and it is less like a forum for open discussion and more like an angry circle-jerk, where the only goal of most threads seems to be "Remember how bad X is, lets repeat the same inept memes over and over." My faith in that site died when people started to phone in to one of the Dragon Age devs house and threatened to kill her over what she said in an interview years prior.
 

Knight Templar

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Staal said:
Your inability you understand the basic meaning of words is making talking to you impossible. These are three issues you need to address.

1- "Boarderline racist" means it isn't actually racist. Since almost all your post is based of this colossal mistake, I see no need in responding since I will simply be repeating this point ad nauseum. You're commong off as a bloody "race realist" or white nationalist because of your error. This is why you cannot simply ignore what words mean. Which brings me...

2-You calling out "Semantics" when I use different words to describe different things is asinine. As I explained there is an operational difference between these different words, they cannot be used interchangeably, and pretending they can tells me you do not know what these words mean either. I mean do I really need to explain how sink colour and gender and entirely different in terms of romantic relationships? Nobody is "white-sexual" you know. Finally...

3- You fail to actually make any substantive argument. You still mistake the concept of "I feel x" as having any weight to it or being an accurate reflection of reality. You don't know what's wrong, but the only thing you have been able to single out as a problem in any way is characters being bi. Nothing else has been suggested to cause any problems. Do you see the problem with such an argument? Do you see why when the only things we get from you are "I feel this game sucks and its bad that it has bi people in it" being the only things you have paint an extremely poor picture of you?
You are either woefully incapable of expressing yourself, or you do not even understand your own opinions. Or perhaps, those unfortunate implications are more accurate than I thought.

So you need to correct these three big mistakes, because I do not want to spend the majority of a reply to you simply going over them again and again.

EDIT: You know, I'm starting to think there is zero point in trying to talk to you. I mean you think that calling someone a bigot is just a way to shut down conversations, I disagree but that's how it apparently works to your mind, but the moment you think you can use the word yourself you never stop using it.
 

Staal

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Starke said:
To be fair, a lot of your posts read like "unthinking aggression", so there's a bit of a paradox here. And I'm not trying to be my normal abrasive jackass self here.
I don't see where I have been unthinkingly aggressive. My stance is everyone is allowed to want themselves, their identity, represented in the game. Knight Templar's assertion that if a white person prefers a white romance option that they are racist qualifies quite clearly as "unthinking aggression" and bigotry.

I am merely holding up the mirror to those people who like to hold themselves up to be the enemy of bigotry all the while perpetuating a disdain for another group. I have adequately explained myself. If you refuse to accept the clear cut logical fallacy that Knight Templar is perpetuating well... I can't force you. But hopefully others that read this will think for themselves instead of jumping on the bandwagon.

Starke said:
Though, you're actually bringing up two separate issues, a lot of mainstream media, at least in the US, has had an agenda of reducing xenophobia, and honestly, this has been going on for decades. It's been one of the most prominent focuses of science fiction since the genre's inception, and continues to be. I probably shouldn't call it an "agenda", but the senseless xenophobia in culture at large is something many writers have felt the need to speak out against, and because of cultural norms, they find themselves needing to speak out against it in an artificial context.
It still doesn't excuse BioWare's horrid response to legitimate complaints about their product.

Starke said:
This gets into your comment about complaining about not having a romantic partner in Dragon Age 2 who is the same race as your protagonist... except, that's not true, there is one. Isabella. Because, skin color is incidental in DA2, for the game's context, the interracial relationship is with Merril or Fenris, because they're elves, and Hawke is human.
People still experience the game with their real life identity as a yardstick. It is exactly the same as saying a gay guy is not allowed to request a gay option in a game where there was none. For example, I saw on the Witcher 2 forum that someone asked whether a gay option would ever be included. Would it be ok to label him as a bigot? People identify with what they are themselves. That goes equally for skin/eye/hair colour, sexual orientation, religion, place of birth, shoe size etc. You cannot say one group can ask for their inclusion but another cannot. That is the hypocritical bigotry that I have just about enough of.

Starke said:
Where DA2 (and for that matter, Dragon Age Origins) talk about race and religion is through the use of fantasy races, the Qunari, the Elves, and the Dwarves, instead of through our preconceived notions of what race is or isn't.
This is what I mean. Previous comment you say "skin colour is incidental". I don't agree but I am happy to accept it for arguments sake. But that leads us to the following... If skin colour in the game has no meaning because it is represented by Elves are you saying that it would be alright that all human characters in the game are white? And that if anyone complains about it they are bigots?

You can't butter your bread on both sides.