Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

Nasrin

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Dragon's Crown Review: Buxom Babes and Battleaxes

Ever seen a mermaid with a butt? You have now.

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Zhukov

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Wait, this only just came out?

Huh. What with the controversy and all, I kinda assumed it was out months ago.

Oh well. Moving on.

...

So, about them breasts...
 

Tanis

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Here's a question:
How's the lag?


Odin Sphere, at least the NTSC-U released, had some damn near CRIPPLING lag during some of the fights.
 

Basement Cat

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So the game that drew so much controversy over the character art turns out to be a fairly good game? Who'd woulda thunk?

I like the Pro/Con list at the end of the video. It's a good way to summarize.

"Cons: Questionable taste" had me grinning in memory of the forementioned controversy. :)
 

Roxas1359

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I've been reading that this game has actually been selling out in Japan ever since it's release. While the the models for the characters are...interesting, I saw who the publisher was and then realized that it was to be expected.
All I can say is that Capcom's probably kicking themselves at the fact that they refused to publish this game. XD
 

Erttheking

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It seems like it's a rather "meh" game overall. I'm not hating on it, but frankly the character models look stupid.
 

StriderShinryu

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Hmmm... not sure I agree with using "Questionable taste" as a con. While I can see why the reviewer may not have appreciated the visual design of the game, and I find it rather offputting as well, that's just far too subjective a thing to be labelled as a ciriticism in a professional review. We're not talking about the game allowing you to kill children here, we're just talking about women (and men) drawn in extermely exaggerated fashion.

Either way, the actual gameplay looks and sounds pretty good. It doesn't sound like a day one purcahse to me but maybe somewhere down the line after a price drop or three.
 

Rad Party God

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Well, I certainly love a mindless brawler from time to time, if I had a PS3/Vita, I'd definitely pick this up. As for the art style (they're not "models", because they're not 3D models... -_-'), I definitely dig it, not that I'm a fan of massive cleavages or overly muscular fems, but I certainly like the over the top design overall, also, like any Vanillaware game, it simply looks freaking gorgeous.
 

rbstewart7263

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I think we can add this to the list of "overblown controversies" right alongside the tomb raider "OMG He caressed her leg WITHOUT PERMISSION!!" scandal and the ken levine box art fracaus.


That bitter nonsense aside I cant wait to play this Ive always loved vanillaware games.
 

edgecult

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Tanis said:
Here's a question:
How's the lag?


Odin Sphere, at least the NTSC-U released, had some damn near CRIPPLING lag during some of the fights.
Curious about that myself. Hardest bit in the whole game for me was the back to back odette, queen of the dead boss fights... so much lag.. but even still game was bloody beautiful and loads of fun when you weren't choking out your ps2 processor to pump out all that pretty.
 

xyrafhoan

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Well, the girls are intentionally modeled after the work of Frank Frazetta, where everyone is naked or nearly naked for no real reason. Conan the Barbarian and Fire and Ice are two major influences going into this game. I know some people will obviously be put off by the RIDICULOUS floating magic breasts of the sorceress or gratuitous butt of the Amazon or any of the other crazy monster girls, but the game is packed with homages to Disney, D&D Tower of Doom, Frank Frazetta, classical Renaissance artists, and Ray Harryhausen. There's a definite pulp fantasy feel about the game and while I won't argue that some people will find the game in "questionable taste", or they might call it "generic", but there's also a wealth of art history that this game is intentionally trying to invoke.
 

-Dragmire-

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Pro/Con breakdown is a great addition to the review.

This game looks stunning, I'll definitely be picking it up.
 

Nasrin

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edgecult said:
Tanis said:
Here's a question:
How's the lag?


Odin Sphere, at least the NTSC-U released, had some damn near CRIPPLING lag during some of the fights.
Curious about that myself. Hardest bit in the whole game for me was the back to back odette, queen of the dead boss fights... so much lag.. but even still game was bloody beautiful and loads of fun when you weren't choking out your ps2 processor to pump out all that pretty.

I'm not sure if the NTSC-U version would be different from the NA release, but that lag was normal in any fight with far too many enemies, and thus effects, going off at once.


Having played their other games, I've noticed less and less lag though. Muramasa on the Wii ran pretty well, and the vita version I'd say runs silky smooth. So with the upping of the power on the PS3/Vita, I'd think it's a safe bet that unless some giant extreme occurs it would run fine.
 

King Kazma

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Back when I was nay taller than a short sword there was a game called Golden Axe, and it was glorious. I'm sure this game is just as great in terms of play, and obviously much better to look at.
 

Belated

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The fact that people were offended by this game at all pretty much guaranteed I was going to buy it at some point. I'm glad to see it actually looks fun though.
 

Devilot

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I find it really funny, that only 2 reviews so far have given the game average scores. And both reviews state that part of the reason is how the game depicted women...

I dont really care, since the game is selling like hotcakes and VW is an incredibly talented developer, but I always thought of the escapist as an objective and serious game site...
 

loilane

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Cool review. Is there, however, any multiplayer, local or online, in the game? Would like to get my friends for some local co-op button mashing.
 

RaikuFA

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rbstewart7263 said:
I think we can add this to the list of "overblown controversies" right alongside the tomb raider "OMG He caressed her leg WITHOUT PERMISSION!!" scandal and the ken levine box art fracaus.


That bitter nonsense aside I cant wait to play this Ive always loved vanillaware games.
Actually, XSEED is now refusing to localize Senran Kagura due to fear of being attacked by Kotaku or the rest of the gaming media.
 

MooseHowl

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erttheking said:
It seems like it's a rather "meh" game overall. I'm not hating on it, but frankly the character models look stupid.
Yeah. They really do look quite poor.

For me, it comes down to the perspective - seeing it in-game, it's just all over the place. Are the characters leaning into the background? Are they leaning into the foreground? Are their heads really small, or just further away for some reason? Why are the feet and heads so tiny simultaneously; are the characters being bent towards (or away from?) our viewpoint, like bows?

The answer to all those questions seems to be "Yes", often all on the same screen. My eye just can't follow the look without picking apart its inconsistencies.
 

Erttheking

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Devilot said:
I find it really funny, that only 2 reviews so far have given the game average scores. And both reviews state that part of the reason is how the game depicted women...

I dont really care, since the game is selling like hotcakes and VW is an incredibly talented developer, but I always thought of the escapist as an objective and serious game site...
I don't really think that you can be objective when it comes to video games.
 

Nasrin

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erttheking said:
Devilot said:
I find it really funny, that only 2 reviews so far have given the game average scores. And both reviews state that part of the reason is how the game depicted women...

I dont really care, since the game is selling like hotcakes and VW is an incredibly talented developer, but I always thought of the escapist as an objective and serious game site...
I don't really think that you can be objective when it comes to video games.
It's impossible. Being objective would require everyone to think the same, like the same, and hate the same.


But considering how many laws that breaks, we have to deal with chaotic randomness in peoples tastes! Some like men dressed up as 10ft tall furry giraffe women in lingerie, others like Sonic. Like... really like him. In a hotdog bun. Being eaten.


Its why magazines and websites often have at least a couple people doing reviews. Its why Famitsu has an aggregate score taken from the scores given by its group of reviewers. It's why, at least I'd expect them to, they'd have people familiar with those games doing the reviews of them, to avoid any unintended bias against its mechanics. I wouldn't have one of the stereotypical 12 year old Call of Duty players going to review say... System Shock 2, or a Need For Speed junkie reviewing Disgaea (or any Nippon Ichi game for that matter).
 

Zeckt

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I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.
 

Devilot

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erttheking said:
Devilot said:
I find it really funny, that only 2 reviews so far have given the game average scores. And both reviews state that part of the reason is how the game depicted women...

I dont really care, since the game is selling like hotcakes and VW is an incredibly talented developer, but I always thought of the escapist as an objective and serious game site...
I don't really think that you can be objective when it comes to video games.
You can be more objective than you think, case in point you may not like the art style in dragon's crown, but you cant deny its good art. Same can be said for the gameplay that the reviewer says its "repetitive" well...its a sidescroller beat-em up...certain genres have certain expectations lined up, otherwise all fps would get a "its too repetitive, all you do is shoot your gun"...

My main gripe here is that I Feel the review is heavily biased towards the art design and the reviewer's dislike of it. I'm not angry or anything, just dissapointed because I always thought the escapist was beyond petty controversies...
 

Erttheking

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Devilot said:
erttheking said:
Devilot said:
I find it really funny, that only 2 reviews so far have given the game average scores. And both reviews state that part of the reason is how the game depicted women...

I dont really care, since the game is selling like hotcakes and VW is an incredibly talented developer, but I always thought of the escapist as an objective and serious game site...
I don't really think that you can be objective when it comes to video games.
You can be more objective than you think, case in point you may not like the art style in dragon's crown, but you cant deny its good art. Same can be said for the gameplay that the reviewer says its "repetitive" well...its a sidescroller beat-em up...certain genres have certain expectations lined up, otherwise all fps would get a "its too repetitive, all you do is shoot your gun"...

My main gripe here is that I Feel the review is heavily biased towards the art design and the reviewer's dislike of it. I'm not angry or anything, just dissapointed because I always thought the escapist was beyond petty controversies...
Actually, yes I can deny that it's good art. It's your opinion that it's good art, I personally think that the art doesn't look good at all, the proportions are all over the place and I'm not just talking about the breasts, the size of the head of that guy in giant armor is way too small.
 

Erttheking

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Zeckt said:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.
The score reflects how much the reviewer liked the game. If the characters made the game less enjoyable for him, then the score would naturally suffer. The same goes with drugs and prostitutes in GTA, if in made the game less enjoyable it would warrant a lower score. But is that really an apt comparison? The characters are constantly on the screen in this game, while the amounts of prostitutes and drugs in GTA are minimal. It's more about guns and car on car carnage.
 

Weaver

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Nasrin, I hope one day you start an ASMR channel on youtube. Your voice is excellent for it.
 

Joriss

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Ever since Scott Pilgrim the video game, every next side-scrolling beat'em up feels like a slight disappointment...
 

Scarim Coral

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I like the new pro/con feature. Shame I don' have the console to played it as I did liked Vanillaware other game Muramasa: The Demon Blade and I do enjoyed a good beat them up game.
 

Baresark

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I am amped to play this game. I'm looking very forward to this game. Too bad I'm stuck waiting till the 6th to pick it up. I can't wait to see how it stacks up to Muramasa, that game was epic, and this is looking awesome as well. Keep 'em coming Vanillaware... I also would love an HD version of Odinsphere!
 

Denamic

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Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
 

DugMachine

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Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
 
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DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
Actually, it's not a power fantasy to me. Nor the legions of people I spend most of my days with as a trainer. Or as someone who likes going to the gym. People want to get those muscles because they think it looks good. Or even sometimes, because they think it will help them in whatever sport or area of life they think they need strength for.

And I don't get that giant boobs isn't a power fantasy for women. I know probably... 13 women who went under the knife. Is it not a power fantasy for them? Some went to make themselves happy with their body, some wanted to get more sexual attention, whatever the reason there are just as many women who want big breasts as there are men who want big muscles. Why is one a power fantasy, and why is one excused because men say big breasts are good?

A lot of women like my body, so I would think someone who doesn't have my body would think big muscles are good. Is it a power fantasy then, or is he just responding what he feels women key into?

I'm not really trying to put this on you, but I'm so confused with the 'power fantasy' idea. I might make a thread over it.
 

Erttheking

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ObsidianJones said:
DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
Actually, it's not a power fantasy to me. Nor the legions of people I spend most of my days with as a trainer. Or as someone who likes going to the gym. People want to get those muscles because they think it looks good. Or even sometimes, because they think it will help them in whatever sport or area of life they think they need strength for.

And I don't get that giant boobs isn't a power fantasy for women. I know probably... 13 women who went under the knife. Is it not a power fantasy for them? Some went to make themselves happy with their body, some wanted to get more sexual attention, whatever the reason there are just as many women who want big breasts as there are men who want big muscles. Why is one a power fantasy, and why is one excused because men say big breasts a good?

A lot of women like my body, so I would think someone who doesn't have my body would think big muscles are good. Is it a power fantasy then, or is he just responding what he feels women key into.

I'm not really trying to put this on you, but I'm so confused with the 'power fantasy' idea. I might make a thread over it.
Yeah they might have, but let me ask you a question. Did they go under the knife so that they would feel more powerful, or so that men would think that they were more attractive? I don't know them personally, I can't say for sure, but I'm going to lean towards the latter.

And actually I've talked to a lot of women on this website, and they say that they like a little muscle on men, but they find big bulging body builder types to be rather unpleasant to look at. They find the idea that all women like big muscular men to be an annoying stereotype. Some do, but not all of them. Come to think of it, I never really liked how the sorceress looked in this game because her anatomy is just, well, impossible. Seriously, how can she stand up straight?
 

DugMachine

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ObsidianJones said:
My train of thought is that while there are women who want bigger breasts out there, breasts themselves don't empower you in any way physically. Muscles though make you stronger, more resilient. You look tough and like you've put a lot of work into building those muscles. With said muscles, in a fantasy setting, you can fight anyone and anything.

Some women find really muscular men attractive, no denying that but I'd bet money that when the developers were designing characters they were not thinking of them. I see where you're coming from but I just don't see muscular male characters designed with female's fetishes in mind.
 

Denamic

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DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
Sure, every man dreams of a beard as magnificent as that of a Dwarf, but this argument doesn't really carry any weight as it can be twisted any way you like. Essentially naked woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked muscular woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked woman with small breasts? Still male sex fantasy. As long as the woman's showing skin, it's almost always a 'male sex fantasy'. Hell, as long as there's tits and she's pretty, it's a male sex fantasy. And sure, that may well be the case. I don't really care either way, as none of that has any bearing of how I view actual women. My point is no one bats an eye no matter how the males are portrayed. Slim, muscular, weak, strong, clothed, naked, wherever. Even the most obvious half-naked bishounen fanservice is utterly ignored.

Again, I don't actually care about how either sex is portrayed. What annoys me is the double standards involved with the complaining about these kinds of things.
 

WindKnight

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Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
 

Denamic

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Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
Ironically, I find what you just said sexist. Muscles = strength, yes. But in no way does that inherently convey honour nor bravery. These are projected values. And sure, let's go with a fetishised female character. There may be tits and ass, but in a game like this, where female characters are as strong and brave as any male character, you'd still say they convey no strength, courage or honour just because their secondary sex characteristics are exaggerated? Okay.
 

Erttheking

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Denamic said:
DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
Sure, every man dreams of a beard as magnificent as that of a Dwarf, but this argument doesn't really carry any weight as it can be twisted any way you like. Essentially naked woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked muscular woman? Male sex fantasy. Essentially naked woman with small breasts? Still male sex fantasy. As long as the woman's showing skin, it's almost always a 'male sex fantasy'. Hell, as long as there's tits and she's pretty, it's a male sex fantasy. And sure, that may well be the case. I don't really care either way, as none of that has any bearing of how I view actual women. My point is no one bats an eye no matter how the males are portrayed. Slim, muscular, weak, strong, clothed, naked, wherever. Even the most obvious half-naked bishounen fanservice is utterly ignored.

Again, I don't actually care about how either sex is portrayed. What annoys me is the double standards involved with the complaining about these kinds of things.
You're missing the point. The problem isn't with women showing a little bit of skin, the problem is that, more often than not, the amount of fan service is so over the top it completely breaks the immersion for a lot of people. I'm getting tired of stories were I'm supposed to take things seriously, yet at the same time there's a woman with her tits hanging out. I'm ok with a woman looking sexy, so long as she actually looks like and dresses like how an actual Human would on the battlefield.

And the main reason why people don't get on shirtless men is because, A. compared to women, men don't have it that bad and B. 9 times out of 10, video games are about empowerment, mowing down hundreds of men at once, defeating entire armies, the muscles are the cherry on top. And to be honest, people do get on some examples of it. I lost track of how many times people made fun of the characters in Gears of War.
 

-Axle-

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I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?
 

Denamic

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-Axle- said:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?
Yes, this is pretty much what I was trying to say. Only this guy did it gooder than me with less words and shit.
 

WindKnight

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Denamic said:
Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
Ironically, I find what you just said sexist. Muscles = strength, yes. But in no way does that inherently convey honour nor bravery. These are projected values. And sure, let's go with a fetishised female character. There may be tits and ass, but in a game like this, where female characters are as strong and brave as any male character, you'd still say they convey no strength, courage or honour just because their secondary sex characteristics are exaggerated? Okay.
Its in the poses. Look how bare-chested men are posed - poses of strength, dominance, power. Skimpy women are draped over the scenery or are emphasizing their sexual characteristics for the viewers pleasure.
 

Erttheking

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-Axle- said:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I have no problem with a character that looks sexy, heck, I like RWBY. The thing is, it needs to fit the setting, and in RWBY I don't mind because everything is so over the top. And even then when I stop to think about it their outfits aren't that revealing with the exception of Yang's, they're more silly than anything else. What really bugs me is a setting where, say, the men where very standard and practical armor, and the woman run around with low cut tops and their breasts hanging out. It's something that's really getting on my nerves while I'm playing through the Witcher. That and people with just impossible anatomy.
 
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Yeah they might have, but let me ask you a question. Did they go under the knife so that they would feel more powerful, or so that men would think that they were more attractive? I don't know them personally, I can't say for sure, but I'm going to lean towards the latter.

And actually I've talked to a lot of women on this website, and they say that they like a little muscle on men, but they find big bulging body builder types to be rather unpleasant to look at. They find the idea that all women like big muscular men to be an annoying stereotype. Some do, but not all of them. Come to think of it, I never really liked how the sorceress looked in this game because her anatomy is just, well, impossible. Seriously, how can she stand up straight?
I actually laughed in a pleasant way when I read your first paragraph. My friend Erin and a bunch of us went out to celebrate her recovery. She decided on a club and we were on the line forever (five minutes)! So she goes up, talks to the bouncers, and waves us up. And she went 'Behold, the power of the boob'. That's a funny memory that just popped up.

Anything in excess (or lack of) is confusing to look at. I like breasts, but if she has too much, I don't know how I'd react. I'd like to think I'd react the same way to a woman who's pleasant to me who is flat chested. That I'll take her for who she is and move from there, but I can't deny whatever I like or feel. That's human nature. But we do all have the capability to look pass these things.

Geeks and 'typically attractive' physical attributes were never bosom buddies (see what I did there?). I know for a fact it was really, really hard to get a geek girlfriend because of exactly what you're saying. There's always going to be exceptions like you say. I also know there were a lot of geek women in my circle who started to try to get close to me when I started getting bigger. Those girls just happened to be my friends and I didn't see them like that, and those other girls... well, one said straight out that she thought I was a player that preyed on women I thought would be an easy lay.

More over, I think it's like Ma'idah said. This whole game was supposed to be a farce/send up of those over the top ideas of Album covers and Vans from the 70's/80's. Overblown and stupid. If a farce is based on a power fantasy, is it still a power fantasy?

DugMachine said:
ObsidianJones said:
My train of thought is that while there are women who want bigger breasts out there, breasts themselves don't empower you in any way physically. Muscles though make you stronger, more resilient. You look tough and like you've put a lot of work into building those muscles. With said muscles, in a fantasy setting, you can fight anyone and anything.

Some women find really muscular men attractive, no denying that but I'd bet money that when the developers were designing characters they were not thinking of them. I see where you're coming from but I just don't see muscular male characters designed with female's fetishes in mind.
So power fantasies are strictly a physical affair? Hmm. That's somewhat understandable. Stupid of them, mind you, as really ridiculously big muscles impede more than they help in combat. They make you slow, if they are hypertrophic in certain way they can limit your range of motion making you not be able to move as well as someone without muscles. I think Default Commander Shepard would be a person I would most question if I wanted to get into a fight with as he has enough muscle to tell me that he does stuff, but still fit and agile enough that I'll have to keep on my toes.

I sometimes think that designers WANT to make their characters appealing, even sexually appealing to people out there... but they just don't know how. Speaking as a typical guy, I really have no clue what makes a guy attractive. But I do know the difference in men. So stupid teen me decided that I would bulk up because muscles are a guy thing, and any guy thing in excess would impress women.

Cue horrible high school/college years where my female peers wanted nothing to do with me, and women I was not interested in at all asked for random screws.

Men are stupid, is where I'm getting at.
 

-Axle-

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Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).
 

WindKnight

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-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).
The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.
 

Denamic

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Windknight said:
Its in the poses. Look how bare-chested men are posed - poses of strength, dominance, power. Skimpy women are draped over the scenery or are emphasizing their sexual characteristics for the viewers pleasure.
What you're missing is that those male power poses are also sexual characteristics. We're a sexual dimorphic species, and while females has rounded facial features, smaller frame, wider hips, tits, etc., males has larger frames, a more violent temperament, square facial features, much larger muscles and so on. When exaggerating these features, different poses are necessary. Females are depicted as sultry and sexy and males as big, strong and stupid because of it.
 

Tanis

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It's just a video game people.

The question is this:
IS IT FUN?
IS IT PLAYABLE?
CAN I HIT 'IT' WITH MY AXE?
WILL I BE ABLE TO BEAT THE GAME WITH GAME CRUSHING LAG?

The whole 'omg hur boobies are too big' is a stupid debate.
This game wasn't met to be some kind of pro or anti women propaganda.

It's homage, a love letter, to the glory days of the 80s and 90s.
Side scrollers like Double Dragon or River City Ransom or D&D: Chronicles of Mystara.
The pop fantasy artwork like Frank Frazetta or John Howe or Larry Elmore.

Everything else is projection by white knights and people with too much time on their hands.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play BloodRayne 2.
 

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Tanis said:
It's just a video game people.

The question is this:
IS IT FUN?
IS IT PLAYABLE?
CAN I HIT 'IT' WITH MY AXE?
WILL I BE ABLE TO BEAT THE GAME WITH GAME CRUSHING LAG?

The whole 'omg hur boobies are too big' is a stupid debate.
This game wasn't met to be some kind of pro or anti women propaganda.

It's homage, a love letter, to the glory days of the 80s and 90s.
Side scrollers like Double Dragon or River City Ransom or D&D: Chronicles of Mystara.
The pop fantasy artwork like Frank Frazetta or John Howe or Larry Elmore.

Everything else is projection by white knights and people with too much time on their hands.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play BloodRayne 2.
You know, I can not like something and NOT be a white knight. Please do not jump to conclusions. I never said that the depiction of women in this game was sexist. I said it was stupid.
 

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Denamic said:
Windknight said:
Its in the poses. Look how bare-chested men are posed - poses of strength, dominance, power. Skimpy women are draped over the scenery or are emphasizing their sexual characteristics for the viewers pleasure.
What you're missing is that those male power poses are also sexual characteristics. We're a sexual dimorphic species, and while females has tits, rounded facial features, smaller frame, wider hips, tits, etc., males has larger frames, a more violent temperament, square facial features, much larger muscles and so on. When exaggerating these features, different poses are necessary. Females are depicted as sultry and sexy and males as big, strong and stupid because of it.
Not seeing the stupid. Powerful, Aggressive, Dominant, yes. These are all traits that are generally admirable, or positive if tempered, and are male power fantasies - something to make the (male) player feel awesome and great.

As for your descriptor of how women are portrayed, thats pretty much saying all women matter for are their looks, which is pretty much a big problem a lot of people have with this kind of art or portrayal.
 

Nasrin

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I think at this point the proportions just make people uncomfortable.

Which is a real shame because the Sorcerer's hair and face are really pretty.
 

-Axle-

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Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).
The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.
And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.
 

chadachada123

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DugMachine said:
Denamic said:
Why does no one ever complain about the unrealistic portrayal of men with biceps the size of a small person? Why is exaggerating the female form more offensive than exaggerating the male form? Hell, the Dwarf is only clothed in his beard and loincloth.

I understand people may find it 'in bad taste' or whatever, but there's a huge double standard going on here.
Because muscular men are a power fantasy. Most game developers don't make muscled good looking men for the female gamers to look at. They want "strong" looking characters that can take on the world and all the bosses. Giant boobs don't convey power, they are there for eye candy and to deny it is just wrong.

Now do I mind personally? No, I love boobs so I'd like to look at boobs. But the double standard argument is wrong because the developers are not making the male characters extremely muscled and good looking for female gamers.
But that is incorrect. Well, the intention may not be there for video games, but the effect certainly is. Male power fantasy is about as equal to female sexual fantasy as female power fantasy is to male sexual fantasy.

I think that this image sums up the "power fantasy" argument pretty well:



In regards to this game, I would not want to look like the Dwarf because he is a freakish mutant, and I certainly hope that no rational female would want to look like the Sorceress because she, too, looks like a freakish mutant. Neither are actually sexually appealing (outside of fetishism, or at least when thinking about real life versions of these caricatures) but instead heavily exaggerate the features commonly held as sexually appealing for males and females (abs/pecs and breasts/thighs, respectively).
 

Erttheking

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-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).
The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.
And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.
No, that's not the case. If a woman designed the characters for this game, that wouldn't change my opinion. They still look stupid. The Dwarf looks stupid, the Sorceress looks stupid, the Amazon looks stupid, and the Warrior looks stupid (His head looks like a baby's stuck on a full grown man's body)
 

Denamic

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Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Windknight said:
Its in the poses. Look how bare-chested men are posed - poses of strength, dominance, power. Skimpy women are draped over the scenery or are emphasizing their sexual characteristics for the viewers pleasure.
What you're missing is that those male power poses are also sexual characteristics. We're a sexual dimorphic species, and while females has tits, rounded facial features, smaller frame, wider hips, tits, etc., males has larger frames, a more violent temperament, square facial features, much larger muscles and so on. When exaggerating these features, different poses are necessary. Females are depicted as sultry and sexy and males as big, strong and stupid because of it.
Not seeing the stupid. Powerful, Aggressive, Dominant, yes. These are all traits that are generally admirable, or positive if tempered, and are male power fantasies - something to make the (male) player feel awesome and great.

As for your descriptor of how women are portrayed, thats pretty much saying all women matter for are their looks, which is pretty much a big problem a lot of people have with this kind of art or portrayal.
What I'm saying is that when secondary sexual characteristics are exaggerated, secondary sexual characteristics are exaggerated. Nowhere did I even imply what women matter for. Watch your mouth.
 

I.Muir

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Looks like a decent side scrolling beat em up with an amazing art style. Now I'm not going to lie, the characters massive assets are a bonus for me. Ill do my best not to go out and oppress every woman I see where I haven't before after playing.
 

-Axle-

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erttheking said:
-Axle- said:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I have no problem with a character that looks sexy, heck, I like RWBY. The thing is, it needs to fit the setting, and in RWBY I don't mind because everything is so over the top. And even then when I stop to think about it their outfits aren't that revealing with the exception of Yang's, they're more silly than anything else. What really bugs me is a setting where, say, the men where very standard and practical armor, and the woman run around with low cut tops and their breasts hanging out. It's something that's really getting on my nerves while I'm playing through the Witcher. That and people with just impossible anatomy.
There has been a general observation lately with respect to ludonarrative dissonance and video games, and your above point would be a branch of that very same thought. The idea that certain things just don't make logical sense or don't follow the same rules or just seem out of place in the context of the whole picture / universe that has been created.

Although in this game, with the fantasy setting and 500lbs men, I can't say its out of place (IMO).
 

WindKnight

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Denamic said:
Windknight said:
Not seeing the stupid. Powerful, Aggressive, Dominant, yes. These are all traits that are generally admirable, or positive if tempered, and are male power fantasies - something to make the (male) player feel awesome and great.

As for your descriptor of how women are portrayed, thats pretty much saying all women matter for are their looks, which is pretty much a big problem a lot of people have with this kind of art or portrayal.
What I'm saying is that when secondary sexual characteristics are exaggerated, secondary sexual characteristics are exaggerated. Nowhere did I even imply what women matter for. Watch your mouth.
My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.
 

blitz609

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To the people that are complaining about the 3/5 stars, Dtoid gave this game a 9.5/10 so I'm just gonna guess that your millage may significantly vary as to how much you like or dislike this game.
 

Erttheking

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-Axle- said:
erttheking said:
-Axle- said:
I think a lot of people are missing the point when it comes to the portrayal of a gender and what can make it a sound argument.

The (debatable) notion that because one is perceived as a power fantasy doesn't somehow dismiss the issue altogether, its still a superficial depiction and one that is unrealistic. By that logic, if a female artist depicts a woman with big breasts in the same manner, then it would all of a sudden become okay? Or inversely, if a female artist depicts a man with attributes that appeals to them, is that now sexist?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I have no problem with a character that looks sexy, heck, I like RWBY. The thing is, it needs to fit the setting, and in RWBY I don't mind because everything is so over the top. And even then when I stop to think about it their outfits aren't that revealing with the exception of Yang's, they're more silly than anything else. What really bugs me is a setting where, say, the men where very standard and practical armor, and the woman run around with low cut tops and their breasts hanging out. It's something that's really getting on my nerves while I'm playing through the Witcher. That and people with just impossible anatomy.
There has been a general observation lately with respect to ludonarrative dissonance and video games, and your above point would be a branch of that very same thought. The idea that certain things just don't make logical sense or don't follow the same rules or just seem out of place in the context of the whole picture / universe that has been created.

Although in this game, with the fantasy setting and 500lbs men, I can't say its out of place (IMO).
Hey, I'm not saying that you can't like it, I'm just saying that I don't like it. And to be honest there really is something I just don't like about it. I still like RWBY though. I think part of it is for all the silliness, the sexualization is kept to a minimal (Especially with Ruby herself, pretty much everything is covered) and there still is a certain class to it, the creator said that he wanted to avoid panty shots at all cost. And the thing is, although they are sexualized a little, all of the characters are still clearly Human beings, it doesn't go over the top like the Sorceress.


I just really don't like the design of these characters. Part of it is I just don't like the basic foundation, but I think part of it is the art style. Everyone is saying that they like it. I think it looks hideous. Also the Dwarf and Amazon look like abominations of nature.
 

Denamic

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Windknight said:
My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.
You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.
 

-Axle-

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erttheking said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).
The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.
And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.
No, that's not the case. If a woman designed the characters for this game, that wouldn't change my opinion. They still look stupid.
Your opinion is not what I'm debating, its the argument that its a negative portrayal of the female form.

People have used the premise that women showing only "tits n ass" are worthless, empty, shallow, etc. when judged solely by their presentation. Where as, an overly muscular man is dismissed as a negative portrayal because it can be perceived as a power fantasy by men.

At the end of the day, you're left with two judgements made on the same basis (physical traits) and people seem to want to encourage that one is okay and the other isn't. Its inconsistent reasoning with a very subtle consequence that I don't see discussed as much as I'd like to see.
 

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n of any kind.[/quote]
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).
The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.
And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.
Not really. I'm saying a woman has a right to chose how she dresses and how she carries herself.

When it comes to artwork, games, comics etc, the woman in question did not chose her personality, attire or pose the artist did. I'm not judging a woman on what she chose - I'm judging an artist on what they wanted to portray in their art.
 

Tohuvabohu

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A thread on the escapist about Dragon's Crown? I wonder how many pages of back-and-forth arguing this will drag on for without actually discussing the game itself instead of prattling on about the art style, human anatomy, and proportions.

Anyway, I'm glad that this is finally on the verge of releasing. I've heard some great things so far about the gameplay and amount of content available. It's been a long time since I've had the chance to play a proper beat 'em up with friends. Just wish the PS3 version weren't so pricey, but eh what can ya do.

Oh, and the art style looks pretty good to me!
 

WindKnight

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Denamic said:
Windknight said:
My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.
You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.
I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?
 

Zeckt

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erttheking said:
Zeckt said:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.
The score reflects how much the reviewer liked the game. If the characters made the game less enjoyable for him, then the score would naturally suffer. The same goes with drugs and prostitutes in GTA, if in made the game less enjoyable it would warrant a lower score. But is that really an apt comparison? The characters are constantly on the screen in this game, while the amounts of prostitutes and drugs in GTA are minimal. It's more about guns and car on car carnage.
Fair enough. I can respect that, but I will take the rpgfan and rpgamer reviews more seriously as they specialize in these sort of games and are very trustable sources. Both of those sites I've browsed for over 10 years and I mean this in the nicest way possible but I feel did a better job and were more fair on the game. I'm not trying to insult the reviewer here, I'm just giving constructive feedback.

I get kind of nervous reading reviews where something as simple as a visual art style impacts their decision too much. It's like the games meat and potatoes are actually quite delicious, but the person eating them is angry because of mushrooms in the gravy.

That made me hungry.
 

Erttheking

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-Axle- said:
erttheking said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
And this is exactly the kind of logic that actually worries me the most about the argument, regardless of where people stand on the issue.

People become so fixated on "this is a negative depiction of the female form" (which I don't agree with), that then when it is seen in real life, people make the same judgement. So if you come across a woman that resembles that form or is an exhibitionist, people's mentality is to go in that direction and devalue the person in the same way (ie. not worth much).
The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.
And so again, it becomes a suspect issue. So if a woman chose the look and pose, does it somehow absolve it from any "offensiveness". More worrying, what you seem to be implying is that certain women are less deserving of respect and dignity depending on how they choose to present themselves physically.

I can't agree with that notion and its precisely what is at the root of discrimination of any kind.
No, that's not the case. If a woman designed the characters for this game, that wouldn't change my opinion. They still look stupid.
Your opinion is not what I'm debating, its the argument that its a negative portrayal of the female form.

People have used the premise that women showing only "tits n ass" are worthless, empty, shallow, etc. when judged solely by their presentation. Where as, an overly muscular man is dismissed as a negative portrayal because it can be perceived as a power fantasy by men.

At the end of the day, you're left with two judgements made on the same basis (physical traits) and people seem to want to encourage that one is okay and the other isn't. Its inconsistent reasoning with a very subtle consequence that I don't see discussed as much as I'd like to see.
You seem to be under the impression that giant musclar men are sexist, and I frankly just don't see the connection. They're not the best characters, more often than not I find them kind of bland, but it just doesn't have the same sexist impact as sexualized women. If you go around and ask men what they feel about a big musclar men as characters and ask women what they feel about women with big breasts as characters, you're going to be getting a lot more eye rolls from women than men.
 

Denamic

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Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Windknight said:
My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.
You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.
I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?
That's irrelevant. There's no text or message to be read here. They probably drew tits because tits. The worrying part is that you somehow derived a message that woman are decorations to be draped over men or scenery and nothing else from a superficial and cursory analysis of their appearance. None of that is implied anywhere. That's purely your own projections, which is the part I was hoping you'd realize on your own. Though I doubt you will even after I've pointed it out, seeing that you've already ignored -Axle- when he pointed out something similar to you.
 

Slycne

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I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

 

Erttheking

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Slycne said:
I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Wait what? OH COME ON! That seriously happened in game? We can do better than that! Seriously!
 

Tanis

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Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.
 

WindKnight

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Denamic said:
Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Windknight said:
My point is that men get to look strong, powerful, awesome. their great fighters, nobel heroes, powerful dominators. Women are posed like decoration, to be draped over men or scenery or stand in a way that is aluring and nothing else. Heck, look at the art of the Amazon, one of the melee fighters - she's lounging back, reclining in a glamour pose, not showing her strength or power.
You're doing some heavy projection right now. Re-read your post and think about what you just said.
I suggest you look at how women are portrayed in videogames and think about what you said. or do I need to link a bunch of pictures as evidence?
That's irrelevant. There's no text or message to be read here. They probably drew tits because tits. The worrying part is that you somehow derived a message that woman are decorations to be draped over men or scenery and nothing else from a superficial and cursory analysis of their appearance. None of that is implied anywhere. That's purely your own projections, which is the part I was hoping you'd realize on your own. Though I doubt you will even after I've pointed it out, seeing that you've already ignored -Axle- when he pointed out something similar to you.
So they drew 'tits for tits sake' doesn't say they viewed their female characters as decorations first, characters second?
 

Denamic

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Slycne said:
I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

I could say the same to you here.
We're all well aware that the game has way exaggerated and sexualised depictions of women. Vanillaware games tend to have that. The point me and some others here are trying to make is that sexualised things aren't inherently negative. I don't think anyone here even tried to refute that the game has ridiculous shit in it.
Windknight said:
So they drew 'tits for tits sake' doesn't say they viewed their female characters as decorations first, characters second?
Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.
 

Erttheking

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Denamic said:
Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.
I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. We have porn for when we want to look at naked girls, why do we need it in video games too?
 

chadachada123

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DugMachine said:
ObsidianJones said:
My train of thought is that while there are women who want bigger breasts out there, breasts themselves don't empower you in any way physically. Muscles though make you stronger, more resilient. You look tough and like you've put a lot of work into building those muscles. With said muscles, in a fantasy setting, you can fight anyone and anything.

Some women find really muscular men attractive, no denying that but I'd bet money that when the developers were designing characters they were not thinking of them. I see where you're coming from but I just don't see muscular male characters designed with female's fetishes in mind.
[/quote]

I think that this whole "fuck-huge pectorals = strength" idea partially comes from the general public's misunderstanding of fantasy vs reality.

Because the guys with the *biggest* and most defined muscles are not the strongest. And the strongest men in the world do not look particularly large or fit, partially because they have a much higher fat content than the dudes that go in bodybuilding competitions.

Here's the strongest man in the world:


Link in case hotlinking doesn't work:
http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2010/Sep/Behdad_Salimi_Wins_the_Supers_at_the_World_Weightlifting_Championships.html



Now compare that fatass to your bodybuilders or Mr. Universe competitors, like Arnold Scharzenhager:


While plenty of high school jocks would like to look like the latter, the average guy certainly wouldn't want to look like that, since they understand that it isn't all that sexually appealing to females compared to a 'normal' fit athlete like a soccer player or fit-as-opposed-to-buff football player, and that size does not equate to strength.

What I don't understand is why many females don't understand that the sorceress is as much a male sexual fantasy as the dwarf is a female one: Both are very heavy and grotesque exaggerations of what males or females would want in real life (that is, to look sexually appealing). Only fetishists would consider her breasts or his pecs attractive.
 

Denamic

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erttheking said:
Denamic said:
Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.
I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. Porn is the place for wanting to look at naked girls, why should we have it in video games too?
Hello Mr. Strawman. I used porn as an example, it does not mean the game has porn in it, but let's roll with it. Now I can't comment on the characters in this particular game yet, but I think it's fair to use Odin's Sphere as an analogue in this case. Specifically Velvet. Like the women in this game, she's exaggeratedly sexualised. Yet she also has a well crafted personality and an interesting backstory that ties into the events of the game. In other words, sexualisation and good characterisation are not mutually exclusive.

As to why we 'should' have sexualised shit in games? That's a nonsense question. Why should we not? Because some people don't like it? Other people like it, so it's a moot point. That type of question can cover everything in any game ever. Why have games at all? Some people don't like that, even think they're all harmful.

Anyway, this argument is probably over for me now. I'm getting tired of it, and it is 3am.
 

Tanis

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^So...you like 2 or 3 games, at the most?
MOST video games have horrid characters, when it comes to stories and personalities, male AND female.

Also remember THIS:

Yeah...I don't really recall everyone losing their shit over THAT picture.
 

Erttheking

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Denamic said:
erttheking said:
Denamic said:
Exactly.
I often look at pictures of naked women, just because they're naked. This does not prevent me from treating women I meet like people.
I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories. Porn is the place for wanting to look at naked girls, why should we have it in video games too?
Hello Mr. Strawman. I used porn as an example, it does not mean the game has porn in it. Now I can't comment on the characters in this particular game yet, but I think it's fair to use Odin's Sphere as an analogue in this case. Specifically Velvet. Like the women in this game, she's exaggeratedly sexualised. Yet she also has a well crafted personality and an interesting backstory that ties into the events of the game. In other words, sexualisation and good characterisation are not mutually exclusive.

As to why we 'should' have sexualised shit in games? That's a nonsense question. Why should we not? Because some people don't like it? Other people like it, so it's a moot point. That type of question can cover everything in any game ever. Why have games at all? Some people don't like that, even think they're all harmful.

Anyway, this argument is probably over for me now. I'm getting tired of it, and it is 3am.
Ok, I misunderstood what you said in the post before and I apologize for that.

Why shouldn't we have it in video games? Look, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be in video games, sorry if it came off as so, but the thing is that frankly it just looks stupid and more often than not it ends up being immersion breaking. I'm not saying that you can't like it, I'm saying that I don't like it and a lot of women don't like it.

*Sigh* This argument has gotten out of hand, I don't even remember what we're arguing about. Sorry if I seemed like a jerk.
 

Denamic

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erttheking said:
Ok, I misunderstood what you said in the post before and I apologize for that.

Why shouldn't we have it in video games? Look, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be in video games, sorry if it came off as so, but the thing is that frankly it just looks stupid and more often than not it ends up being immersion breaking. I'm not saying that you can't like it, I'm saying that I don't like it and a lot of women don't like it.
That's fine. Yeah, as I've said earlier in the thread, I can see that people may not like it. Personally, I don't dislike it, but neither am I overly fond of it. I prefer mild exaggeration over heavy exaggeration. I do love the aesthetics in general though. Different folks, different strokes. All I'm trying to get across is that while I am aware there is legitimate criticism to be brought against this sort of thing, it's all too common that people overlook a lot of facts that's right in front of them in favour of superficial and heavily flawed criticism.

Anyway, I'm done for realsies now. I'm going to ban myself from typing anything until I've slept.
 

Baron von Blitztank

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I've had a passing interest in the Beat 'Em Up genre and the visuals do look pretty...
Who knows? Maybe this'll make for a nice introduction into the genre for me. Will probably have to wait by years end before I get it but by that time it'll have dropped in price anyway!
 

KissingSunlight

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When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.
 

piinyouri

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Tanis said:
Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.
Since no one(especially the reviewer, strangely) has answered, the only thing we have to go on was the video, which did show a full party fighting various bosses, and it seemed to be pretty smooth to me.

And thank god for that too, if the lag hadn't been fixed, I was going to pass cause it made Odin Sphere unplayable for me.
 

Nasrin

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piinyouri said:
Tanis said:
Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.
Since no one(especially the reviewer, strangely) has answered, the only thing we have to go on was the video, which did show a full party fighting various bosses, and it seemed to be pretty smooth to me.

And thank god for that too, if the lag hadn't been fixed, I was going to pass cause it made Odin Sphere unplayable for me.
I didn't notice any lag issues. Rarely the game had difficulty connecting to the servers, but that's all I encountered.
 

xPixelatedx

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Windknight said:
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
Yeah muscled men do embody positive traits, but lets not pretend they aren't fetishised and ridiculous as well. All these characters are deformed and sexualized; we just happen to place good qualities on the male designs alongside with the bad. That's not exactly the fault of the artist, though. If the artist went through the effort to make the females more... normal looking(?) they would then be out of place alongside the "living tumors" that the males appear to be. At the end of the day, it was a lose/lose situation.
 

Ohlookit'sMatty

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It is a very pretty game, which can go a long way to winning me over // I got a feel of Diablo III from the button mashing game play but that is not a bad thing // This may go on the "One day I could get this game if it was on sale" list

-M
 

piinyouri

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Nasrin said:
piinyouri said:
Tanis said:
Seems like no reviews have really mentioned lag or frame rate dropping, so that's one hell of a plus in my book.
Since no one(especially the reviewer, strangely) has answered, the only thing we have to go on was the video, which did show a full party fighting various bosses, and it seemed to be pretty smooth to me.

And thank god for that too, if the lag hadn't been fixed, I was going to pass cause it made Odin Sphere unplayable for me.
I didn't notice any lag issues. Rarely the game had difficulty connecting to the servers, but that's all I encountered.
Thank you for answering! ^^

To clarify, we aren't talking about lag in connections while online, but rather the game's frame rates going down drastically simply because of all the stuff going on on-screen compounded by the super high quality of the sprites.

Boss fights in Odin Sphere were like power point presentations sometimes.
 

Erttheking

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KissingSunlight said:
When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.
No. That isn't what this is about at all. There's a difference between a character choosing to wear revealing clothing, and an IRL person choosing to do so. One had the choice made by someone else, the other made the choice herself. Also, no one is shaming anyone for liking the game, they're just criticizing the game itself.

Also, I checked with my friend, she finds it creepy when a character is too objectified, regardless of the gender of the artist. Objectified to the point where the character isn't a character but a walking sex object.
 

CBanana

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To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".
 

Yuuki

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This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that exists above sea level.

CBanana said:
To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".
Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to the final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish, stop getting offended by anything that breathes/moves, and just let artists create whatever fantasy/art they like without having their moral status questioned.
 

KissingSunlight

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erttheking said:
KissingSunlight said:
When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.
No. That isn't what this is about at all. There's a difference between a character choosing to wear revealing clothing, and an IRL person choosing to do so. One had the choice made by someone else, the other made the choice herself. Also, no one is shaming anyone for liking the game, they're just criticizing the game itself.

Also, I checked with my friend, she finds it creepy when a character is too objectified, regardless of the gender of the artist. Objectified to the point where the character isn't a character but a walking sex object.
A character is fiction. Someone would have to write or draw what they wear. So, people who want any excuse to complain about objectification in video games, movies, books, etc. will have carte blanche to do so. Except for men who want to complain about how they are depicted in the media. Because, "Shut up! It's not the same."
 

CBanana

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Yuuki said:
This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that is above sea level.
This makes about as much sense as labeling your post "This post is being done by a Men's Right Activist". Your usage of feminist as a perjorative does indicate you're engaging in the Ad Hominem logical fallacy. Simply put, you're arguing that that her opinions should be dismissed because of their source.

Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to the final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish, stop getting offended by anything that breathes/moves, and just let artists create whatever fantasy/art they like without having their moral status questioned.
You completely missed my point in that you can't really use the bare chested buff guys as proof that men and women are equally exploited. As for Tera Online (the game in the clip), even within that game, the fanservice is heavily skewed towards the male gaze of female characters and overall, we're light years away from anything approaching a gender equal portrayal of fanservice.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Yuuki said:
This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that is above sea level.

CBanana said:
To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".
Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to my final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish and just enjoy art for art's sake.
"This reviewer has slightly criticized this game based on it's art, while still saying it's pretty great looking! They must be an evil feminist!"

Ever stop to think, maybe people just don't like the character art? And that's why people "aren't enjoying the art"?
Ya know, because they don't like it. Like every real person who doesn't like something, and not some made up strawman feminist.

Anyway, game does look quite beautiful. May pick it up at some point.
 

Erttheking

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KissingSunlight said:
erttheking said:
KissingSunlight said:
When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.
No. That isn't what this is about at all. There's a difference between a character choosing to wear revealing clothing, and an IRL person choosing to do so. One had the choice made by someone else, the other made the choice herself. Also, no one is shaming anyone for liking the game, they're just criticizing the game itself.

Also, I checked with my friend, she finds it creepy when a character is too objectified, regardless of the gender of the artist. Objectified to the point where the character isn't a character but a walking sex object.
A character is fiction. Someone would have to write or draw what they wear. So, people who want any excuse to complain about objectification in video games, movies, books, etc. will have carte blanche to do so. Except for men who want to complain about how they are depicted in the media. Because, "Shut up! It's not the same."
When was the last time a man did complain how his gender was depicted in media? I'm not saying that they're depicted flawlessly in media, but people only ever claim that they're sexist or objectified when the whole sexism debate against women gets brought up, and usually as a counter point against those who are trying to argue about sexism against women in the industry.

The problems with the depiction of women in the industry and the depiction of men in the industry are commonly said that they're different because they more or less are. The situations just aren't the same.
 

Nasrin

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Yuuki said:
This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that exists above sea level.
Yep, someone a little put off by every female thing in the game having their sex appeal ramped up for the sake of fanservice reviewing that game is the exact same thing as someone reviewing something they're completely ignorant of.

But, I have to know, is it just this game, or any video game with scantily clad women for the sake of lazy, childish fanservice (what a list that would be!) that feminists just simply can't review without the need for a warning about their apparent ignorance?

CBanana said:
To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".
Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to the final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish, stop getting offended by anything that breathes/moves, and just let artists create whatever fantasy/art they like without having their moral status questioned.
It's always nice to be told that ubiquitous tit-armor, blatant fanservice in the form of barely dressed women and ridiculous proportions, and reported attempts to keep female protagonists from existing (or be in a straight relationship that might make the mens feel awkward), among other things I'm forgetting at the moment aren't sexism.

Even better to be told that I should no longer be offended by something regardless of whether or not it actually offends me, because poor artists would then have to deal with criticism of the messages and implications of their work.
 

KissingSunlight

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erttheking said:
KissingSunlight said:
erttheking said:
KissingSunlight said:
When people were getting upset about the character with unrealistic breasts. There were posters being put up all through town of a female singer with huge breasts. Her cleavage was so revealing it barely covered her nipples. What I learned about sexual objectification is: It's wrong when a man draws a woman in a sexually provocative way. It's OK when a woman sexually objectify herself. So, the whole controversy was about to sexually shame men about having impure thoughts. People need to grow up about sex. If this game appeals to you, regardless of characters' appearance or the gameplay, then buy it. Don't shame people who might like the game, because a character has huge breasts.
No. That isn't what this is about at all. There's a difference between a character choosing to wear revealing clothing, and an IRL person choosing to do so. One had the choice made by someone else, the other made the choice herself. Also, no one is shaming anyone for liking the game, they're just criticizing the game itself.

Also, I checked with my friend, she finds it creepy when a character is too objectified, regardless of the gender of the artist. Objectified to the point where the character isn't a character but a walking sex object.
A character is fiction. Someone would have to write or draw what they wear. So, people who want any excuse to complain about objectification in video games, movies, books, etc. will have carte blanche to do so. Except for men who want to complain about how they are depicted in the media. Because, "Shut up! It's not the same."
When was the last time a man did complain how his gender was depicted in media? I'm not saying that they're depicted flawlessly in media, but people only ever claim that they're sexist or objectified when the whole sexism debate against women gets brought up, and usually as a counter point against those who are trying to argue about sexism against women in the industry.

The problems with the depiction of women in the industry and the depiction of men in the industry are commonly said that they're different because they more or less are. The situations just aren't the same.
I think it's a fair counterpoint. If people are going to complain how women are dressed in videogames(because these women don't chose that outfit for themselves.) Then men have a right to speak up and say "What about these absurdly muscular men that are barely dressed?"

You are right that video games are made and marketed to a male audience. The most effective way to get companies to make and market to women is to support games that appeal to women. Most of the time the complaints about how women are depicted in games comes off as sexual shaming.
 

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Yuuki said:
This article title is misleading, it should be changed to "Dragon's Crown Review By A Feminist". Because that's what it is.
Yes opinions are opinions and criticism is criticism, but it's quite important to let people know what sort of a person is making that criticism. Like a blind person criticizing the lack of color in a painting, or a fish criticizing everything that exists above sea level.

CBanana said:
To address some earlier comment, there is a difference between bare-chested male power fantasies and fanservice geared towards women. I think people should realize that when fanservice is geared towards heterosexual females, guys WILL complain about it.

Just look at the comments for this video (or take my word for it because YouTube comments are awful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udlfGxyM3xY

In the comments, there are so many guys talking about how "gay" it is or about how fangirls are ruining things, My favourite comment: "Is it to much to ask for some MALE armor for these guys".
Frankly I think that sort of a thing happening is great. It adds to the (small but growing) list of things we can fire-back at feminists and say "see, this stuff happens to males too". It would lead to the final and ultimate goal of having everyone around the world collectively stop giving a fuck about any of this pointless "fictional sexism" rubbish, stop getting offended by anything that breathes/moves, and just let artists create whatever fantasy/art they like without having their moral status questioned.
Um, first of all it won't really "happen to men too" until something like this happens.

http://g33kp0rn.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/1367286878401.jpg

Second of all, I have to commend that game. You see, it does sexy characters right. It's not overblown sexualized characters that frankly are just laughable, they're just people that happen to look fairly sexy. See, if you want to have female characters that are sexy, do it that way. Just to clarify, doing it right.

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Samus.Aran_.full_.227697.jpg

Doing it wrong.

http://www.60-fps.com/60fps/wp-content/gallery/sexy-female-characters/tera_high-elf.jpg
 

Erttheking

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KissingSunlight said:
I think it's a fair counterpoint. If people are going to complain how women are dressed in videogames(because these women don't chose that outfit for themselves.) Then men have a right to speak up and say "What about these absurdly muscular men that are barely dressed?"

You are right that video games are made and marketed to a male audience. The most effective way to get companies to make and market to women is to support games that appeal to women. Most of the time the complaints about how women are depicted in games comes off as sexual shaming.
I'm sorry, but it just isn't the same. You will encounter countless people who will say that this is sexy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8d/Doaxbvbox.jpg

You will be hard pressed to find someone who says that this is sexy.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/kratos5.jpg

More often than not, female characters are put in skimpy clothing purely for the titillation of male viewers. Now, there are some good female characters with skimpy clothing, like Poison Ivy who's main weapon is seducing people, or Bayonetta, who my female friend loves to death because of how awesome she is and how much she parodies the concept of fan service, but that's the thing. Them dressing in skimpy clothing has a point, it's a part of their character. 9 times out of 10, a character isn't wearing skimpy clothing because it adds to the story or is a part of who they are. They're there for the sake of putting boobs on display. And frankly it's just classless. And really, the same thing doesn't happen to men. 300 wasn't designed to appeal to women.

The same thing just doesn't happen to men. Kratos runs around in a loincloth all the time, but he is nowhere near a sex fantasy, is a power fantasy 100%. And no, no one is trying to shame people for being sexual. The difference between sex shaming and this is criticizing a couple for having sex, and criticizing a couple for having sex where everyone else can see them. There's a time and place for it, and more often than not, games put it in where it isn't appropriate.
 

KissingSunlight

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Both genders are barely dressed. Yet, you are saying, women being barely dressed is bad, because it makes men think of impure thoughts. Since games are being marketed to men. Any barely dressed man is a power fantasy. Women find different body types sexy as much as men do. I think a good example is sports. It's an activity that is marketed to men. Yes, it is a power fantasy for males. Yet, you can't deny that women do find athletes sexy.

The point I guess I'm making is that the energy spent on criticizing men liking video games with barely dressed women could be spent on more effective ways on achieving your goals. Like I mentioned before, buying only games that are positive towards women. Also, bigger issues like women health care clinics being shut down by religious fanatics.
 

Erttheking

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KissingSunlight said:
Both genders are barely dressed. Yet, you are saying, women being barely dressed is bad, because it makes men think of impure thoughts. Since games are being marketed to men. Any barely dressed man is a power fantasy. Women find different body types sexy as much as men do. I think a good example is sports. It's an activity that is marketed to men. Yes, it is a power fantasy for males. Yet, you can't deny that women do find athletes sexy.

The point I guess I'm making is that the energy spent on criticizing men liking video games with barely dressed women could be spent on more effective ways on achieving your goals. Like I mentioned before, buying only games that are positive towards women. Also, bigger issues like women health care clinics being shut down by religious fanatics.
I'm sorry, the same argument could be directed right back at you. Men face some real problems in the world. Female on male abuse is rarely reported because of the social stigma that men are supposed to be strong and women not so much.
 

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CBanana said:
This makes about as much sense as labeling your post "This post is being done by a Men's Right Activist". Your usage of feminist as a perjorative does indicate you're engaging in the Ad Hominem logical fallacy. Simply put, you're arguing that that her opinions should be dismissed because of their source.
Oh, the reviewer is female. I couldn't really tell the first time I saw the name (my fault)...I take back everything I said about the review title being misleading and all that stuff about feminists. Since the reviewer is female I have zero issues with any criticism she has for female character design, I have nothing to add/argue. The final 3-star verdict is fair, I stand corrected in that aspect. Didn't really mean to raise the roof about it :(

CBanana said:
You completely missed my point in that you can't really use the bare chested buff guys as proof that men and women are equally exploited. As for Tera Online (the game in the clip), even within that game, the fanservice is heavily skewed towards the male gaze of female characters and overall, we're light years away from anything approaching a gender equal portrayal of fanservice.
But at least it's a step towards change. As long as it goes towards making things "fair" i.e. give all artists the ability to have endless scope for freedom with BOTH genders without over-sensitive people waving the sexism flag. For me even a small change is a good change, games like Dragon's Crown and TERA are heading in the right direction by establishing that there is always room for all art styles.

LifeCharacter said:
Yep, someone a little put off by every female thing in the game having their sex appeal ramped up for the sake of fanservice reviewing that game is the exact same thing as someone reviewing something they're completely ignorant of.

But, I have to know, is it just this game, or any video game with scantily clad women for the sake of lazy, childish fanservice (what a list that would be!) that feminists just simply can't review without the need for a warning about their apparent ignorance?
There's definitely games which have scantily clad women for the sake of lazy, childish fanservice, and I believe they have a right to exist just as much as any other form of media. Criticizing a fanservice-driven game for having fanservice is like criticizing a gnome for being short, it's totally valid but will ultimately fall on deaf ears. So criticize away, but don't act surprised when it doesn't stop because it will continue to exist as long as the audience/market exists. It's a bit like drugs, but with the huge difference of being completely legal, fictional and therefore harmless :)
Now considering what I just said, I don't think Dragon's Crown is a game that is going for blatant fanservice out of sheer laziness. That is simply an insult to what the developers have put into this game and this has already been discussed to death in previous Dragon's Crown controversy threads. The devs have tried to keep the over-sexualisation balanced across the male characters and female characters, the art style is consistent with the theme/setting/gameplay elements of the game, they have gone for a retro nostalgia factor and succeeded. Calling it lazy fanservice strikes me as lazy criticism :)

Anyway as I stated above, the reviewer is female and I have no problems with her marking the game down for the female character design. It is normal.
 

KissingSunlight

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erttheking said:
KissingSunlight said:
Both genders are barely dressed. Yet, you are saying, women being barely dressed is bad, because it makes men think of impure thoughts. Since games are being marketed to men. Any barely dressed man is a power fantasy. Women find different body types sexy as much as men do. I think a good example is sports. It's an activity that is marketed to men. Yes, it is a power fantasy for males. Yet, you can't deny that women do find athletes sexy.

The point I guess I'm making is that the energy spent on criticizing men liking video games with barely dressed women could be spent on more effective ways on achieving your goals. Like I mentioned before, buying only games that are positive towards women. Also, bigger issues like women health care clinics being shut down by religious fanatics.
I'm sorry, the same argument could be directed right back at you. Men face some real problems in the world. Female on male abuse is rarely reported because of the social stigma that men are supposed to be strong and women not so much.
This is why I hate having online discussion anymore. You couldn't take an agreement for an answer. You couldn't meet me half way and agree with me on some of my points. Like even though Kratos wasn't designed to be a sex object. Yet, some women will find him sexually appealing. Not all, some. I don't find the woman in Dragon's Crown sexy. If I saw her in real life, I would be concerned about her back.

The ridicule men receive from reporting abuse from women is intense. That is the burden of being a man. We have to take it like a man. It's not right. It's the way it is. Anyway, people who were offended by big breasts were the ones who brought this issue up. Not men who have been abused by women.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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RaikuFA said:
rbstewart7263 said:
I think we can add this to the list of "overblown controversies" right alongside the tomb raider "OMG He caressed her leg WITHOUT PERMISSION!!" scandal and the ken levine box art fracaus.


That bitter nonsense aside I cant wait to play this Ive always loved vanillaware games.
Actually, XSEED is now refusing to localize Senran Kagura due to fear of being attacked by Kotaku or the rest of the gaming media.
that's unfortunately to be expected. If you thought Dragon's Crown was bad, Senran Kagura is made as both fanservice and action (not sure what got priority). At least the people in Dragon's Crown are believed to be adults; you will have a hard time with characters with a chest like the sorceress on teenagers.

shame, heard the characters are actually both funny and decent
 

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Much like other Vanillaware games I'm not sure if I want the game or just an art book of the game.
 

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Disregarding the "skimpy" issue, these character designs apart from the Elf and the Wizard dude just creep me the fuck out!
It's always good to exaggerate your character designs to a degree, but for Christ's sake keep it balanced. Most of the characters in this game look like they're suffering from elephantiasis. This amount of body horror would make David Cronenberg blush.

As for the actual game... Odin Sphere was okay, but monotony set in pretty soon. I don't know how this game compares to that.
 

Ipsen

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Windknight said:
The difference is that she chose that herself, for herself.

A game character did not choose her look or pose - someone else did, usually a man.
Another difference: A game character is just that; a character. No matter how multi-dimentional, it does not hold the facets that a real personality does. I'll say that, for me, that's grounds not to sweat this situation TOO much.


Slycne said:
I take it a lot of your didn't bother to read the review and just jumped in guns blazing.

Where the notable exaggeration remains appropriate to the subject it does really work. The genie's muscular arms and the old beggar's wrinkled skin bring out their essential qualities of strength and weakness respectively. It even makes sense for the Sorceress, a class that's traditionally charismatic, to have sexually suggestive garb. However, in the case of the nun with her legs spread it feels at best lazy and at worst downright regressive.

Oh. OHHHHHHHH. -giggle-

On a serious note, I do want to ask; Isn't the 'fantasy' genre the right home for this kind of tripe?

Ma'idah's 'regressive' comment sparked this, but considering not only the tag 'fantasy', I.E. 'in your mind', but also the time period that fantasy usually draws from (I'll shoot for around medieval), it wasn't a friendly and pure place, and it wasn't like how fairy tales and kids games would like us to imagine it as. Not going to get deep into it (cuz I'm too lazy to research), but I think the 'myth' of, say, the alluring sorceress (by spell or not) or the sexually repressed nun have some roots in the time period presented.

Surely it doesn't stand in the contemporary mindset, but realize (or at least pretend) you also go BACK in time in this of genre.
 

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xPixelatedx said:
Windknight said:
Caused muscled men embody all positive traits - strength, honour, bravery.

Fetishised women are pretty much Tits n ass, tits n ass, tits n ass. No bravery, no strength, nothing but tits n ass.
Yeah muscled men do embody positive traits, but lets not pretend they aren't fetishised and ridiculous as well. All these characters are deformed and sexualized; we just happen to place good qualities on the male designs alongside with the bad. That's not exactly the fault of the artist, though. If the artist went through the effort to make the females more... normal looking(?) they would then be out of place alongside the "living tumors" that the males appear to be. At the end of the day, it was a lose/lose situation.
I think Jim C Hines summed it up best in a couple of blog posts where he emulated urban fantasy, fantasy and romance novel covers.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/

these poses, womens poses, glamorize rather than strengthen, and most of them cause discomfort or actual pain to hold, something that undercuts strength - women have to be pretty, and that's all that matters.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/

All the poses embody strength, power, dominance. Even on the pictures aimed at women, the men are powerful, in charge. Dudes are manly, powerful and to be admired for being so. A man can be conventionally ugly, but he's still an awesome manly man to be admired.
 

Yuuki

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Windknight said:
I think Jim C Hines summed it up best in a couple of blog posts where he emulated urban fantasy, fantasy and romance novel covers.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/

these poses, womens poses, glamorize rather than strengthen, and most of them cause discomfort or actual pain to hold, something that undercuts strength - women have to be pretty, and that's all that matters.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/

All the poses embody strength, power, dominance. Even on the pictures aimed at women, the men are powerful, in charge. Dudes are manly, powerful and to be admired for being so. A man can be conventionally ugly, but he's still an awesome manly man to be admired.
You're oozing with bias there - if a woman being womanly is all that matters, then males being manly is also all that matters. Both are unfair.
A lot of fantasy attempts to visit historical times, eras of bygone ages - this is compounded with a lot of fantasy being aimed at males along with nerd culture in general being rather male-dominated.
Pulling some extremely basic stuff from history, men were required to be manly/strong and women were required to be beautiful/charming - cold harsh requirements of life which neither gender could really escape. Expecting a man to spend their life training, fighting and performing laborious jobs was just as unfair as expecting women to learn housework, cooking, etc. The only difference was that one was glorified in the eyes of society and the other was simply considered normal. Y'know, probably because one of them involved getting killed (or worse, wounded and forced to live in agony) in service to the kingdom/empire and the other one...didn't...really?

Guess which one makes for a more interesting and thrilling foundation for a fantasy story? I'm sure you can take a vague stab at a guess. I agree fantasy is supposed to break the "norms", and it often does (especially when it explores futuristic/alien settings), but it often also relies on things we are already familiar with. We are familiar with history, and we are famliar with manly men and beautiful women. From the very basis of our evolution and biology, humans (as a whole) will continue to think that way for a long time to come regardless of technological and intellectual advancements.
 

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erttheking said:
I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories.
Its a retro style side scrolling beat-em-up, strong characterization was never going to be a selling point, and gender issues have nothing to do with it.

OT: Can wait to pick this up on the sixth, I only hope I can get there early enough to grab the Gamestop preorder art book that they are giving out first come first serve.
 

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Yuuki said:
Windknight said:
I think Jim C Hines summed it up best in a couple of blog posts where he emulated urban fantasy, fantasy and romance novel covers.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/

these poses, womens poses, glamorize rather than strengthen, and most of them cause discomfort or actual pain to hold, something that undercuts strength - women have to be pretty, and that's all that matters.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/

All the poses embody strength, power, dominance. Even on the pictures aimed at women, the men are powerful, in charge. Dudes are manly, powerful and to be admired for being so. A man can be conventionally ugly, but he's still an awesome manly man to be admired.
You're oozing with bias there - if a woman being womanly is all that matters, then males being manly is also all that matters. Both are unfair.
A lot of fantasy attempts to visit historical times, eras of bygone ages - this is compounded with a lot of fantasy being aimed at males along with nerd culture in general being rather male-dominated.
Pulling some extremely basic stuff from history, men were required to be manly/strong and women were required to be beautiful/charming - cold harsh requirements of life which neither gender could really escape. Expecting a man to spend their life training, fighting and performing laborious jobs was just as unfair as expecting women to learn housework, cooking, etc. The only difference was that one was glorified in the eyes of society and the other was simply considered normal. Y'know, probably because one of them involved getting killed (or worse, wounded and forced to live in agony) in service to the kingdom/empire and the other one...didn't...really?

Guess which one makes for a more interesting and thrilling foundation for a fantasy story? I'm sure you can take a vague stab at a guess. I agree fantasy is supposed to break the "norms", and it often does (especially when it explores futuristic/alien settings), but it often also relies on things we are already familiar with. We are familiar with history, and we are famliar with manly men and beautiful women. From the very basis of our evolution and biology, humans (as a whole) will continue to think that way for a long time to come regardless of technological and intellectual advancements.
And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best
 

Denamic

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Windknight said:
And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best
It's incredibly annoying trying to argue with you when the foundation of your argument is thick bias and projection. Where is it implied that when a female strikes an exaggerated pose that she's only there as decoration and a prize for men to claim? I actually find it pretty disturbing that you're able to get this 'message' from a cursory semi-analysis of appearance.

Men are put on display as being powerful, aggressive, and dominant, and these are all positive things and therefore okay? Sure, why not. Women are made out to be sexy, beautiful, and seductive, and these are negative things to convey? You honestly see no flaws with this reasoning?
 

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I came into these comments expecting a bunch of nonsense like, "my outrage has been justified because this game wasn't given a perfect score!" I'm glad most people realize something this silly was never meant to be taken serious.

Edit: I said this before I saw the picture of the Nun. SMH now.
 

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Denamic said:
Windknight said:
And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best
It's incredibly annoying trying to argue with you when the foundation of your argument is thick bias and projection. Where is it implied that when a female strikes an exaggerated pose that she's only there as decoration and a prize for men to claim? I actually find it pretty disturbing that you're able to get this 'message' from a cursory semi-analysis of appearance.

Men are put on display as being powerful, aggressive, and dominant, and these are all positive things and therefore okay? Sure, why not. Women are made out to be sexy, beautiful, and seductive, and these are negative things to convey? You honestly see no flaws with this reasoning?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

I think this pretty much sums up the fallacy of your argument.

Men are idealised - they are given positive qualities that do not revolve around their appearances.

Women are objectified - all positive traits bar their appearance are ignored. The might be a brilliant scientist who creates technological marvels, a seasoned warrior of strength and talent, or a jounalist of insight and great wordplay, but this art shows them only as their boobs and ass, like everything else does not matter.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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I grew up on this stuff. Beat'em Ups were my genre as a kid. Odin Sphere is also one of my favorite games. And I get that the art was intentionally exaggerating typical fantasy portrayals (buxom ladies and dwarfs being built like a boulder) to the point of absurdity. So hearing that the gameplay, the important thing here, is functional is great news.
 

Ticklefist

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Windknight said:
The same exact point being made by everyone else with the same exact words.
Well aside from a few bumps in the road like this one, it's great that the video game industry is beginning to make the necessary changes and make women more relatable. Once they get you guys sorted out I look forward to men that look a little more realistic and relatable.
 

Denamic

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Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Windknight said:
And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best
It's incredibly annoying trying to argue with you when the foundation of your argument is thick bias and projection. Where is it implied that when a female strikes an exaggerated pose that she's only there as decoration and a prize for men to claim? I actually find it pretty disturbing that you're able to get this 'message' from a cursory semi-analysis of appearance.

Men are put on display as being powerful, aggressive, and dominant, and these are all positive things and therefore okay? Sure, why not. Women are made out to be sexy, beautiful, and seductive, and these are negative things to convey? You honestly see no flaws with this reasoning?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

I think this pretty much sums up the fallacy of your argument.

Men are idealised - they are given positive qualities that do not revolve around their appearances.

Women are objectified - all positive traits bar their appearance are ignored. The might be a brilliant scientist who creates technological marvels, a seasoned warrior of strength and talent, or a jounalist of insight and great wordplay, but this art shows them only as their boobs and ass, like everything else does not matter.
You're not listening. I'm arguing against how you're making arguments. I've already mentioned multiple times earlier in the thread that I am aware the females are heavily and exaggeratedly sexualised in the game. My point is you're going into the argument with a foregone conclusion and ignoring every point made against you. Case in point: You're arguing that the female characters in this game are oversexualised. Yes, I agree. But, you're also arguing they're displayed as weak and only there for decoration and something for men to throw over their shoulder. That would be a fair point if they actually were, but none of this is conveyed through just screenshots and gameplay clips. In fact, the gameplay clips directly contradicts that, as the females are clearly on par with the males. A character is more than their appearance, and I think it's safe to say you haven't played the game and do not know anything, or very little, about the characters other than their appearance. It's annoying arguing against a foregone conclusion.
 

WindKnight

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Denamic said:
Windknight said:
Denamic said:
Windknight said:
And how does that justify a woman who's purpose in the game is to blow stuff up with her mind or hack things to death with a sword being posed to emphasize their beauty and nothing else? Does it justify a nun who's been defeated in battle being presented like she's a centerfold in a porn mag?

We've come a long way from 'traditional roles' for men and women, and pretending that 'traditonal roles' justify and excuse anything is misguided at best
It's incredibly annoying trying to argue with you when the foundation of your argument is thick bias and projection. Where is it implied that when a female strikes an exaggerated pose that she's only there as decoration and a prize for men to claim? I actually find it pretty disturbing that you're able to get this 'message' from a cursory semi-analysis of appearance.

Men are put on display as being powerful, aggressive, and dominant, and these are all positive things and therefore okay? Sure, why not. Women are made out to be sexy, beautiful, and seductive, and these are negative things to convey? You honestly see no flaws with this reasoning?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

I think this pretty much sums up the fallacy of your argument.

Men are idealised - they are given positive qualities that do not revolve around their appearances.

Women are objectified - all positive traits bar their appearance are ignored. The might be a brilliant scientist who creates technological marvels, a seasoned warrior of strength and talent, or a jounalist of insight and great wordplay, but this art shows them only as their boobs and ass, like everything else does not matter.
You're not listening. I'm arguing against how you're making arguments. I've already mentioned multiple times earlier in the thread that I am aware the females are heavily and exaggeratedly sexualised in the game. My point is you're going into the argument with a foregone conclusion and ignoring every point made against you. Case in point: You're arguing that the female characters in this game are oversexualised. Yes, I agree. But, you're also arguing they're displayed as weak and only there for decoration and something for men to throw over their shoulder. That would be a fair point if they actually were, but none of this is conveyed through just screenshots and gameplay clips. In fact, the gameplay clips directly contradicts that, as the females are clearly on par with the males. A character is more than their appearance, and I think it's safe to say you haven't played the game and do not know anything, or very little, about the characters other than their appearance. It's annoying arguing against a foregone conclusion.
Except this discussion was entirely about 'why do people get angry about art of half naked women, but not half naked men? Double Standards! Double Standards!'. That's the entire thing I have been talking about. And whilst the game itself does present the amazon and sorceress as pretty kick butt and awesome, look at how the promo art presents them, and compare it to how the warrior and the dwarf are presented in their art. The dwarf is arguably showing as much skin as the amazon but his posing is much more aggressive and powerful. The amazon is doing a glamour pose, and the sorceress is presenting the usual back-breaking boobs n butt pose that say nothing about their strengths and capabilities.
 

Milanezi

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Now I LAUGH when people say they didn't buy a PS Vita, this shall be my... humm... Third Vita game... yeah not cool...

Anyway, I'm getting this for Vita asap :D Looks pretty entertaining, maybe over the top, but so was Hotline Miami (I KNOW, it's totally different, and, for my tastes, I sincerely don't expect anything to top Hotline Miami, I really didn't expect it to amaze me as much as it did :D) and most other games that are really catching my attention lately. hope I'm right :)
 

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major_chaos said:
erttheking said:
I'm sorry, I prefer characters in video games to be well crafted with balanced personalities and interesting stories.
Its a retro style side scrolling beat-em-up, strong characterization was never going to be a selling point, and gender issues have nothing to do with it.
Actually I purchased Odin Sphere (which is also a retro style side scrolling beat-em-up, developed by Vanillaware),
for strong characterization. Particularly this guy.



He's a dragon, and if a developer could skip out on the characterization of anything and get away with it, it would be a dragon. More often they're just stock enemies with little role to play in the actual story. Wagner however, has reasons for attacking you, that stem farther than "It's just his nature".

Just because a game is of a particular genre doesn't mean it can't have a good story or strong characterization as a selling point. Actually the reviewer even noted lackluster story as a downside to this game, which implies a good story is becoming a requirement for most games.
 

-Axle-

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Windknight said:
Except this discussion was entirely about 'why do people get angry about art of half naked women, but not half naked men? Double Standards! Double Standards!'. That's the entire thing I have been talking about. And whilst the game itself does present the amazon and sorceress as pretty kick butt and awesome, look at how the promo art presents them, and compare it to how the warrior and the dwarf are presented in their art. The dwarf is arguably showing as much skin as the amazon but his posing is much more aggressive and powerful. The amazon is doing a glamour pose, and the sorceress is presenting the usual back-breaking boobs n butt pose that say nothing about their strengths and capabilities.
And so this is the point that (IMO) is most worth addressing. The discrepancy in assessment / logic in the judgement of whether an issue exists or not.

Whether someone thinks the depiction of exaggerated men or women is right or wrong will always be a subjective issue that is dependent on the individual, the current time, social environment, culture, etc. Its like asking whether someone thinks a certain kind of music is good or bad, the issue will come down to people's perspective and observation of what is at stake.

In this case, what I am hearing is people trying to dismiss that one exaggeration is okay while the other is not, one is positive and the other negative. All on the premise that one caters to one gender's sexual inclination (which is debatable as that's a bit of a generalization) while the other doesn't (again, generalization, but for the sake of simplicity). From a fundamental perspective, both are exaggerations and neither is immune to being attached to positive or negative traits. The fact that people see "honour" or "bravery" in one and not the other is truly a projection of one's own beliefs and not what is being presented considering that both those traits are abstract concepts of character / personality.

Here are some examples, a woman posing sexually can be a liberating idea for someone who's sexuality has been repressed. To them, that image can show someone confident, able to put themselves in a vulnerable position without feeling threatened, self-aware, courageous, etc. To another person, one who's sexuality has been exploited, it could mean someone who's been taken advantage of, submissive, stripped of their dignity, etc. Now that doesn't mean if you hold either of those views that you have been sexually repressed or exploited, that's just to illustrate how someone can arrive at either of those views and how they can be in strict opposition to each other despite the same content being in question. A more basic example could be a picture of a military officer, to some it would represent protection, bravery, strength, honour, etc. while to another it represents corruption, cowardice, abuse, oppression, etc. At the end of the day, all that was presented is the image of a military officer.

Now, this is what I think is worth emphasizing the most, attaching positive traits to an image is all fine and good. Attaching negative traits or inferring that positive traits cannot be attached to an image is where I feel a problem is created because it reinforces a double standard with very real negative consequences for both genders. Its in line with the same logic as the double-standard of a promiscuous male or female (ie. the male is commonly viewed as "ok" while the female is commonly viewed as "slutty" or wrong). It encourages the notion that a person who resembles that very same imagery is devoid of any positive traits (or embodies negative ones) and results in a lack of respect towards a demographic (or an entitlement towards another).
 

SnakeoilSage

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Not to harp on a genre that hasn't been relevant since the 90's (side-scrolling beat 'em ups, not fantasy), but I can get all the random flashes of light, bouncing numbers, and sex-appeal from Borderlands 2. It's not really something to brag about when you're making Mad Moxxi look subtle and nuanced.
 

edgecult

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cursedseishi said:
edgecult said:
Tanis said:
Here's a question:
How's the lag?


Odin Sphere, at least the NTSC-U released, had some damn near CRIPPLING lag during some of the fights.
Curious about that myself. Hardest bit in the whole game for me was the back to back odette, queen of the dead boss fights... so much lag.. but even still game was bloody beautiful and loads of fun when you weren't choking out your ps2 processor to pump out all that pretty.

I'm not sure if the NTSC-U version would be different from the NA release, but that lag was normal in any fight with far too many enemies, and thus effects, going off at once.


Having played their other games, I've noticed less and less lag though. Muramasa on the Wii ran pretty well, and the vita version I'd say runs silky smooth. So with the upping of the power on the PS3/Vita, I'd think it's a safe bet that unless some giant extreme occurs it would run fine.
Ah, I don't remember it getting to bad on any other fight than Odette but that's because she just pumps out stupid amounts of extra guys to flood the screen that hobbled my game when I got to close to the mass. (I remember spending half the fight on the other side of the game map and firing off tornado's in her general direction trying to clear the screen enough to get a few good strafing runs on her to try and keep the lag issue down. Muramasa ran perfectly fine for me when I played it on Wii (no vita. Every game I want on it I've beaten on another system already. Can't keep rebuying every new version of Persona >.> it's getting silly now.)
 

Nasrin

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"OH NO! BIG BREASTS! SO FUCKING SEXIST!"
"...And the Dwarf/Warrior aren't? Who the hell wants to look like a hulking monstrosity?"
"NOPE POWER FANTASY LOL"
"... Please stop posting. Please oh god stop posting."

This is the conversation I have had ongoing with this bullshit. The Sorceress isn't sexy, I have no want to "be" a hulking monstrosity, and this is all just a very stylized game with stylized characters, bordering on the absurd. Why people take offensive to it, I will never know.

I am going to be picking this game up because it looks fun to play, I have had an itch for a good ol'beatemup for a while now. Also, to spite the whiny children screaming SEXIST and to spite the terribleness that is Kotaku (whose journalists border on the level of TMZ journalists).
 

Nasrin

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Capitano Segnaposto said:
"OH NO! BIG BREASTS! SO FUCKING SEXIST!"
I'd say it's more along the lines of "Oh no! Big breasts, hypersexualized clothing for every female, the images of the Sorceress and Amazon are them grinding their ass on their staff and a gravure shot respectively, and the nun having that spread leg pose for no reason! So fucking sexist!"
"...And the Dwarf/Warrior aren't? Who the hell wants to look like a hulking monstrosity?"
"NOPE POWER FANTASY LOL"
Putting it in all caps and making it look as though it was typed by an idiot doesn't suddenly make it an invalid point. Being a hulking mass of muscles in heroic poses is a power fantasy. Breaking your spine to show off your ass-staff grinding skills and your massive, barely clothed chest is a sexual fantasy.
"... Please stop posting. Please oh god stop posting."
That would certainly make it easier to claim that everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot who types in all caps.

This is the conversation I have had ongoing with this bullshit. The Sorceress isn't sexy, I have no want to "be" a hulking monstrosity, and this is all just a very stylized game with stylized characters, bordering on the absurd. Why people take offensive to it, I will never know.
Turns out seeing a gender (possibly their own gender) being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses bothers some people. I'd be perfectly okay with and understand you saying that you don't personally take offense to the game or its art/style, but apparently you can't show the same courtesy to anyone who disagrees with you. There's nothing wrong with not being offended by something, but there's a lot of things wrong with you being completely incapable of understanding why it might be offensive to others.

I am going to be picking this game up because it looks fun to play, I have had an itch for a good ol'beatemup for a while now. Also, to spite the whiny children screaming SEXIST and to spite the terribleness that is Kotaku (whose journalists border on the level of TMZ journalists).
I always consult my "Who to spite" list whenever I make entertainment purchases too.
 

Rabidkitten

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The strange thing about this debate is that even though the women are hyper sexualized. They are not victims, they are ass kicking super heroes. They may have alluring poses in concept art, but when you get into the game, they are tearing through hordes of enemies with ease. It also should be noted that you have options if you don't like the art. If you want a muscular naked male or female (Dwarf/Amazon), Clothed? (Wizard, Elf). So I don't see the complaint too much, the game gives the player the option to play a fairly correctly proportioned elf girl, and a fairly correctly proportioned Wizard guy and past that you never really have to look at any of the characters again.
 

shadowmagus

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Ive bought two copies of this game, one for PS3 and one for Vita, and I don't even own a vita because I want this game to sell literally millions of copies. I want people so mad at the success of this game they choke.
 

WindKnight

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-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
Except this discussion was entirely about 'why do people get angry about art of half naked women, but not half naked men? Double Standards! Double Standards!'. That's the entire thing I have been talking about. And whilst the game itself does present the amazon and sorceress as pretty kick butt and awesome, look at how the promo art presents them, and compare it to how the warrior and the dwarf are presented in their art. The dwarf is arguably showing as much skin as the amazon but his posing is much more aggressive and powerful. The amazon is doing a glamour pose, and the sorceress is presenting the usual back-breaking boobs n butt pose that say nothing about their strengths and capabilities.
And so this is the point that (IMO) is most worth addressing. The discrepancy in assessment / logic in the judgement of whether an issue exists or not.

Whether someone thinks the depiction of exaggerated men or women is right or wrong will always be a subjective issue that is dependent on the individual, the current time, social environment, culture, etc. Its like asking whether someone thinks a certain kind of music is good or bad, the issue will come down to people's perspective and observation of what is at stake.

In this case, what I am hearing is people trying to dismiss that one exaggeration is okay while the other is not, one is positive and the other negative. All on the premise that one caters to one gender's sexual inclination (which is debatable as that's a bit of a generalization) while the other doesn't (again, generalization, but for the sake of simplicity). From a fundamental perspective, both are exaggerations and neither is immune to being attached to positive or negative traits. The fact that people see "honour" or "bravery" in one and not the other is truly a projection of one's own beliefs and not what is being presented considering that both those traits are abstract concepts of character / personality.

Here are some examples, a woman posing sexually can be a liberating idea for someone who's sexuality has been repressed. To them, that image can show someone confident, able to put themselves in a vulnerable position without feeling threatened, self-aware, courageous, etc. To another person, one who's sexuality has been exploited, it could mean someone who's been taken advantage of, submissive, stripped of their dignity, etc. Now that doesn't mean if you hold either of those views that you have been sexually repressed or exploited, that's just to illustrate how someone can arrive at either of those views and how they can be in strict opposition to each other despite the same content being in question. A more basic example could be a picture of a military officer, to some it would represent protection, bravery, strength, honour, etc. while to another it represents corruption, cowardice, abuse, oppression, etc. At the end of the day, all that was presented is the image of a military officer.

Now, this is what I think is worth emphasizing the most, attaching positive traits to an image is all fine and good. Attaching negative traits or inferring that positive traits cannot be attached to an image is where I feel a problem is created because it reinforces a double standard with very real negative consequences for both genders. Its in line with the same logic as the double-standard of a promiscuous male or female (ie. the male is commonly viewed as "ok" while the female is commonly viewed as "slutty" or wrong). It encourages the notion that a person who resembles that very same imagery is devoid of any positive traits (or embodies negative ones) and results in a lack of respect towards a demographic (or an entitlement towards another).
Again... A PERSON choses what they chose to wear, chooses how they act and has all the rights in the world to do whatever they please with their own body, behaviour and fashion choices.

A CHARACTER has all this chosen for them by an artists who's intentions are in question. And in the cases that cause people Ire the intention is to provide titillation using characters who are supposed to be strong women. And if this is porn or erotica, that's no problem - sexy outfits have their place. if its a fantasy knight who's supposed to be fighting monsters with sword and shield, and the portrayal is more interested in giving us boobs and ass, its weakening the character for the sake of titillation - this is objectification. this is why people don't like the chainmail bikini, and half naked women in these kind of situations. To bring up an example from comic books, a female character is welding, has an accident and is burned. If, as scripted, she had been wearing safety gear thats all it would have been. But he artist wanted breasts, so put her in a low cut top, which ultimately made the character look like a complete idiot when she had the accident and got burned.

Please stop trying to say that by being against objectified characters I'm trying to 'slut shame' women who chose their own wardrobes. Its not what I'm saying and you know it.
 

Nasrin

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LifeCharacter said:
Turns out seeing a gender (possibly their own gender) being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses bothers some people. I'd be perfectly okay with and understand you saying that you don't personally take offense to the game or its art/style, but apparently you can't show the same courtesy to anyone who disagrees with you. There's nothing wrong with not being offended by something, but there's a lot of things wrong with you being completely incapable of understanding why it might be offensive to others.
Don't kid yourself. Comparing a fantasy video game to the real world and generating a reaction based on that is an incredibly naive thing to get 'offended' over, let alone have it dictate what the overall thought of video game review should be. 'Castle Crasher's' had you carrying around fair maidens like they were no different to sheep, the outright personification of the so called 'objectification of women in games', yet no one bats an eye.

It is with these double standards and illogical perceptions that bring about the 'incapability of understanding' by people who deem thoughts like these to be worthless as it is clear (and has been for a long time now) that this isn't about what's right or fair. Only an outright perversion of a non-issue to have a place in media discourse.
 

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RapeisGenocide said:
LifeCharacter said:
Turns out seeing a gender (possibly their own gender) being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses bothers some people. I'd be perfectly okay with and understand you saying that you don't personally take offense to the game or its art/style, but apparently you can't show the same courtesy to anyone who disagrees with you. There's nothing wrong with not being offended by something, but there's a lot of things wrong with you being completely incapable of understanding why it might be offensive to others.
Don't kid yourself. Comparing a fantasy video game to the real world and generating a reaction based on that is an incredibly naive thing to get 'offended' over, let alone have it dictate what the overall thought of video game review should be. 'Castle Crasher's' had you carrying around fair maidens like they were no different to sheep, the outright personification of the so called 'objectification of women in games', yet no one bats an eye.

It is with these double standards and illogical perceptions that bring about the 'incapability of understanding' by people who deem thoughts like these to be worthless as it is clear (and has been for a long time now) that this isn't about what's right or fair. Only an outright perversion of a non-issue to have a place in media discourse.
Wait, what? We're talking about the sexualization of women, not damsels in distress. Also who's offended? No one is offended, I'm not offended, she's not offended, we're criticizing the design of a character because it reflects a rather negative trend in the industry, and frankly because it just looks dumb.
 

Nasrin

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LifeCharacter said:
That was a word for word conversation I had somebody with Twitter (yes, I know. Shame on me for using Twitter).

Also, why is it always a double standard? If you see a women with huge breasts and little clothing, it is sexist. As you put it, "being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses". Yet, the same exact description holds true to the male characters like the dwarf and warrior. Little clothing, huge muscles, giant pack, "heroic" poses. Yet, you deem it as a power fantasy. It isn't to me and MANY Men out there. Most men, as has been said in this very thread, don't consider this a power fantasy.

This is the issue I have with the whole deal. It is NEVER anything but a "Power Fantasy" as you put it, even though I find it disturbing just as much as a women does with the Sorceress. Which is utter and complete bullshit and you know it.

The only difference in this whole thing is that most men out there that I know don't take offense to it. Why should we? Sure a lot of us find it disgusting, but it is a fucking GAME. A game all about overly exaggerated features. This, besides the obvious double standard that you have so clearly shown, is what I don't get.
 

Masterdebator

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Not surprising the devs behind Odin Sphere released a solid game.

Also not at all a fan of the art style personally, but the uproar of defensive-minded political correctness it caused was absurd and completely unwarranted. On the positive side, this has probably just resulted in the game getting more attention, therefore more sales.

Might check out some footage in the future, and see if I'd like to pick up a copy myself.

Maybe one day certain individuals online will realize the strange fact that art styles/ character models in a fantasy setting are in no way bound to reflect reality.
 

Erttheking

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Capitano Segnaposto said:
LifeCharacter said:
That was a word for word conversation I had somebody with Twitter (yes, I know. Shame on me for using Twitter).

Also, why is it always a double standard? If you see a women with huge breasts and little clothing, it is sexist. As you put it, "being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses". Yet, the same exact description holds true to the male characters like the dwarf and warrior. Little clothing, huge muscles, giant pack, "heroic" poses. Yet, you deem it as a power fantasy. It isn't to me and MANY Men out there. Most men, as has been said in this very thread, don't consider this a power fantasy.

This is the issue I have with the whole deal. It is NEVER anything but a "Power Fantasy" as you put it, even though I find it disturbing just as much as a women does with the Sorceress. Which is utter and complete bullshit and you know it.

The only difference in this whole thing is that most men out there that I know don't take offense to it. Why should we? Sure a lot of us find it disgusting, but it is a fucking GAME. A game all about overly exaggerated features. This, besides the obvious double standard that you have so clearly shown, is what I don't get.
I'm not sure what that conversation has to do with the debate being had at the moment.

Also, here's the thing that makes things different. Intent and purpose of design, in other words, what the intent of the design and the purpose of it. The intent of the design of characters with sexualized bodies making poses is too look sexy and the purpose of that design is to appeal to the male audience. The intent of big muscular men who beat up hundreds of people at once is to be a power fantasy, and the purpose of design is also to appeal to a male audience. And that's where the problem comes in, male characters are designed to appeal to males, but female characters are also designed to appeal to males. You may not personally like them, and a lot of people may not, but the thing is that was the intent behind their design, to pander to the male audience.

That's why people get annoyed. They don't consider male power fantasies sexist because they were power fantasies designed specifically to pander to men, but they get annoyed at sexualized female characters because they are also designed to be pandered to men. It's a sign of a much bigger problem in the industry, that games are designed for men and no one else. Women want more female characters that aren't designed to be sex objects, I don't think they'd mind a female character designed to be a power fantasy, they want to be pandered to for once.
 

hermes

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Zeckt said:
I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon that the game's characters should not of detracted on the score of the game. It's like giving grand theft auto a bad score because it has prostitutes and drugs, I don't see the difference there.
Why not? We have seen countless examples of games being bumped up a notch because of their particular art style and characters design (for example Okami, Borderlands or Team Fortress 2). Its only fair that the opposite can also happen depending of the taste of the reviewer.
 

hermes

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Masterdebator said:
Maybe one day certain individuals online will realize the strange fact that art styles/ character models in a fantasy setting are in no way bound to reflect reality.
They don't reflect reality, but they do reflect intent. Most people jumping at the defense of the art style make it look like its characteristics are on the eye of the beholder, when in truth it was an intentional decision in the part of the developer.
 

Nasrin

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erttheking said:
Capitano Segnaposto said:
And that's where the problem comes in, male characters are designed to appeal to males, but female characters are also designed to appeal to males.

That's why people get annoyed. They don't consider male power fantasies sexist because they were power fantasies designed specifically to pander to men, but they get annoyed at sexualized female characters because they are also designed to be pandered to men. It's a sign of a much bigger problem in the industry, that games are designed for men and no one else. Women want more female characters that aren't designed to be sex objects, I don't think they'd mind a female character designed to be a power fantasy, they want to be pandered to for once.
Wow, this is hilarious. Your complaint is that a game designed by men for men appeals solely to men?

Here's an idea; if women want to be represented as 'they' wish in video games, why don't they design them their selves? Then we'll be able to argue why games designed by women for women that appeal only to women are so exclusive of men.

We'll just leave it as a stalemate.
 

Nasrin

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Capitano Segnaposto said:
That was a word for word conversation I had somebody with Twitter (yes, I know. Shame on me for using Twitter).
Then I'm actually not surprised that a conversation like that happened; it is Twitter after all.

Also, why is it always a double standard? If you see a women with huge breasts and little clothing, it is sexist. As you put it, "being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses". Yet, the same exact description holds true to the male characters like the dwarf and warrior. Little clothing, huge muscles, giant pack, "heroic" poses. Yet, you deem it as a power fantasy. It isn't to me and MANY Men out there. Most men, as has been said in this very thread, don't consider this a power fantasy.
Well let's look at the male characters. Only the Dwarf, lacks clothing and, even then, his lack of clothing is used to show that he is a ball of muscles which logically translates to having great strength. The other two are dressed reasonably, in pants and robes or full plate armor with barely any skin other than their face showing. Their poses from that official artwork from a while back also translate to (from wizard to fighter to dwarf) casting a spell, combat readiness, and a victory pose.

Meanwhile two of the women have an apparent aversion to reasonable clothing, with a chainmail bikini or a top that stops the moment its job of censoring the nipples is accomplished. The Amazon having a lack of clothing I could accept if it wasn't in the form of the shittiest piece of fictional clothing ever, since she is overly muscular and all that. The Sorceress, OTOH, has no justification for her outfit other than blatant, lazy fanservice since all it does is draw attention to her huge chest and bare legs. The Elf is the only one who actually makes it out safely, but that likely has to do with the fact that she's the token younger looking one with braids and a zettai ryouiki. Then there's there poses of (from sorceress to elf to amazon) ass grinding, combat readiness, and a gravure shot.

If you really don't see the difference between the men having all of their aspects there to show how powerful they are (and reasonably dressed for their profession) and the women who have pretty much all of their aspects geared to making them look sexy to someone (despite them looking hideous due to the art style) then I guess that this is where the conversation ends. I would like to be able to sway you and everyone else to my view, but I can't get you to see a problem if you outright refuse to believe that a problem exists.

This is the issue I have with the whole deal. It is NEVER anything but a "Power Fantasy" as you put it, even though I find it disturbing just as much as a women does with the Sorceress. Which is utter and complete bullshit and you know it.
Huge muscles generally equate to power. Huge tits and a lack of clothing generally equate to sex appeal. While there may be a bit of a sexual fantasy for some people who are into hypermuscular men, there's no inherent power to being a hypersexualized woman.

The only difference in this whole thing is that most men out there that I know don't take offense to it. Why should we? Sure a lot of us find it disgusting, but it is a fucking GAME. A game all about overly exaggerated features. This, besides the obvious double standard that you have so clearly shown, is what I don't get.
First, and this is not directed solely at you, can we stop with the bullshit idea that you can't get offended about something because it's just a game? Is there some actual reason why a game can't be offensive, because I have yet to hear any reasonable argument to support such a claim.

Anyway, "overly exaggerated features" is right. The thing is, men get overly exaggerated features (except the wizard but, then again, the elf remained relatively unscathed too so it's even) that showcase strength and power, while women get overly exaggerated features that showcase that they have tits, asses, thighs, and malleable spines. If there was a female equivalent of the fighter where she was decked out in full plate armor (without the bullshit addition of tit-plating) and an obviously huge build, I'd be in full agreement with you. Same with a female Dwarf (pretty much a short Amazon), if it wasn't for the pose and a bikini, I'd agree with you. But, sadly, that's not the case.
 

Erttheking

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RapeisGenocide said:
erttheking said:
Capitano Segnaposto said:
And that's where the problem comes in, male characters are designed to appeal to males, but female characters are also designed to appeal to males.

That's why people get annoyed. They don't consider male power fantasies sexist because they were power fantasies designed specifically to pander to men, but they get annoyed at sexualized female characters because they are also designed to be pandered to men. It's a sign of a much bigger problem in the industry, that games are designed for men and no one else. Women want more female characters that aren't designed to be sex objects, I don't think they'd mind a female character designed to be a power fantasy, they want to be pandered to for once.
Wow, this is hilarious. Your complaint is that a game designed by men for men appeals solely to men?

Here's an idea; if women want to be represented as 'they' wish in video games, why don't they design them their selves? Then we'll be able to argue why games designed by women for women that appeal only to women are so exclusive of men.

We'll just leave it as a stalemate.
The fact that video games should only be designed for men is an unhealthy mindset and the idea that people of one gender can't design games that the other gender can enjoy just doesn't make any sense. The head writer of Assassin's Creed 2 was a woman.

Also there's problems in the industry regarding female characters, the developers of remember me had to fight tooth and nail to make a game with a female lead.
 

Nasrin

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erttheking said:
The fact that video games should only be designed for men is an unhealthy mindset and the idea that people of one gender can't design games that the other gender can enjoy just doesn't make any sense.
Because I'm sure you're just dying to play a game squarely about romance that also comes with jewelry; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw4cFZCsBPA

I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
 

Erttheking

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RapeisGenocide said:
erttheking said:
The fact that video games should only be designed for men is an unhealthy mindset and the idea that people of one gender can't design games that the other gender can enjoy just doesn't make any sense.
Because I'm sure you're just dying to play a game squarely about romance that also comes with jewelry; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw4cFZCsBPA

I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
I...what? What is that even supposed to mean?

Not exactly, I've got more than a few female gamer friends and just about all of them are fans of the Persona series, which doesn't have any sexualized characters and simply has a very good story with very likable characters. I also love the Hell out of Persona, as do plenty of my male friends. My female friend is also introducing me to the Suikoden series, an awesome game series about massive political intrigue and gray and grey morality.

We're not as different as you think.
 

Eclipse Dragon

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RapeisGenocide said:
I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
Is there no middle ground? Surely a game can have aspects that appeal to both men and women. Also I would appreciate a source from the developers that state Dragon's Crown is made by men for only men and no one else... Actually in these days of game developers trying to "appeal to a broader audience" to make a game for only men seems like the opposite line of thought.
 

Nasrin

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RapeisGenocide said:
erttheking said:
The fact that video games should only be designed for men is an unhealthy mindset and the idea that people of one gender can't design games that the other gender can enjoy just doesn't make any sense.
Because I'm sure you're just dying to play a game squarely about romance that also comes with jewelry; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw4cFZCsBPA

I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
Is there some part of human genetics that determines that women will inherently be concerned with jewelry and romance while men are inherently concerned with violence and competition? If you're aware of something like this, what the hell are you doing on a forum, go call up some scientists and stun them with your new discovery.

Otherwise, don't make arguments that men and women crave completely different things always and forever based on nothing other than the evidence that men and women raised in a society that tells them that they should like something, happen to like that something.
 

Masterdebator

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hermes200 said:
Masterdebator said:
Maybe one day certain individuals online will realize the strange fact that art styles/ character models in a fantasy setting are in no way bound to reflect reality.
They don't reflect reality, but they do reflect intent. Most people jumping at the defense of the art style make it look like its characteristics are on the eye of the beholder, when in truth it was an intentional decision in the part of the developer.
If accentuating physical proportions translates into an "intent", than it can be applied to every billion dollar superhero franchise in existence.

Sex sells when comes to audiences. It's why we have shallow pandering crap like Transformers for the little boys and Twilight for the little girls. A cold reality in business, but it can be superseded by good direction, acting, writing, game play, visuals, and overall design, which can turn the physical proportions/ designs of characters into a superficial complaint.

Annah in Planescape Torment could be subjected to the notion of "intent" to you put to Dragon's Crown, but the sheer quality of the game itself would make whining about her outfit nothing more than a vain attempt at criticizing a irrelevant superficiality in the grand scheme of things, on top of ignoring the wowing experience the game itself offers. I'm not comparing DC to PT, but I am saying when it comes to the criticism of video games I want to see something more substantive than seeing their choice style of imagery taken out of context and cynically judged (as anyone can do that with nearly any (vaguely sexual) entertainment medium in existence).

Batman has detailed armor for his muscular body and Catwoman wears a synthetic/ leather outfit for her gymnast trained body.

"Run to the hills and pray for our souls children. We have yet again sinned in the ever-watching eyes of the politically correctness. DAMN US. WHEN WILL WE LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES."
 

Legion

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Eclipse Dragon said:
RapeisGenocide said:
I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
Is there no middle ground? Surely a game can have aspects that appeal to both men and women. Also I would appreciate a source from the developers that state Dragon's Crown is made by men for only men and no one else... Actually in these days of game developers trying to "appeal to a broader audience" to make a game for only men seems like the opposite line of thought.
Nonsense! Games are for men and only men! Just look at this here:



This is actually a real advertisement for the game. It's... kind of disturbing. They also chose the worst time possible to try and advertise their crap like this. Or maybe they did it on purpose to gain attention and notoriety?

Although I cannot help but notice that it's cheap fantasy MMO's that seem to be at the forefront of this kind of thing. Which I think a lot of people neglect to mention or notice. Most sci-fi tends to have a pretty decent representation of both sexes and so do more "realistic" games.
 

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Legion said:
Eclipse Dragon said:
RapeisGenocide said:
I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
Is there no middle ground? Surely a game can have aspects that appeal to both men and women. Also I would appreciate a source from the developers that state Dragon's Crown is made by men for only men and no one else... Actually in these days of game developers trying to "appeal to a broader audience" to make a game for only men seems like the opposite line of thought.
Nonsense! Games are for men and only men! Just look at this here:

This is actually a real advertisement for the game. It's... kind of disturbing.

Although I cannot help but notice that it's cheap fantasy MMO's that seem to be at the forefront of this kind of thing. Which I think a lot of people neglect to mention or notice. Most sci-fi tends to have a pretty decent representation of both sexes and so do more "realistic" games.
Hey hey I didn't say there weren't ....disturbing exceptions to the rule.
I was talking about Dragon's Crown specifically. I've actually never even heard of that Wartune game...
Is it popular? I'd be even more disturbed by that.
 

Erttheking

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Legion said:
Yeah, that is pretty slimey. It gets even more pathetic when more often than not, games that advertise like that end up being like this.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/evonylady_1563.jpg
 

Legion

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Eclipse Dragon said:
Legion said:
Eclipse Dragon said:
RapeisGenocide said:
I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
Is there no middle ground? Surely a game can have aspects that appeal to both men and women. Also I would appreciate a source from the developers that state Dragon's Crown is made by men for only men and no one else... Actually in these days of game developers trying to "appeal to a broader audience" to make a game for only men seems like the opposite line of thought.
Nonsense! Games are for men and only men! Just look at this here:

This is actually a real advertisement for the game. It's... kind of disturbing.

Although I cannot help but notice that it's cheap fantasy MMO's that seem to be at the forefront of this kind of thing. Which I think a lot of people neglect to mention or notice. Most sci-fi tends to have a pretty decent representation of both sexes and so do more "realistic" games.
Hey hey I didn't say there weren't ....disturbing exceptions to the rule.
I was talking about Dragon's Crown specifically. I've actually never even heard of that Wartune game...
Is it popular? I'd be even more disturbed by that.
Eh, I was trying to make a joke based upon your reasonable request that games cater to both audiences, by taking the ridiculous position that "games are clearly just for men" and using an example. My joke apparently failed badly.

As for Wartune being popular I have no idea, I just saw that advertisement today. Upon using google image to find a link I did see that it has an "adult only" game, but looking at screenshots, it seems like the advertisements are worse than the actual game. It looks like one of those games that uses sex appeal in the advertisement purely to reel people in. The game itself does seem to have skimpy outfits, but the game-play looks a little like Dragons Crown actually. A side scrolling fighting game of some kind. Mixed a bit with Evony, which is a strategy game of some kind.

erttheking said:
Legion said:
Yeah, that is pretty slimey. It gets even more pathetic when more often than not, games that advertise like that end up being like this.
That was the game I was thinking of when I mentioned games that use sex appeal for advertisement even though the game itself doesn't really have anything to do with it.

Personally I prefer the PopCap way of dealing with it:



It is a much better way of pointing out how idiotic it is than complaining I feel.
 

WindKnight

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Legion said:
Eclipse Dragon said:
RapeisGenocide said:
I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
Is there no middle ground? Surely a game can have aspects that appeal to both men and women. Also I would appreciate a source from the developers that state Dragon's Crown is made by men for only men and no one else... Actually in these days of game developers trying to "appeal to a broader audience" to make a game for only men seems like the opposite line of thought.
Nonsense! Games are for men and only men! Just look at this here:



This is actually a real advertisement for the game. It's... kind of disturbing. They also chose the worst time possible to try and advertise their crap like this. Or maybe they did it on purpose to gain attention and notoriety?

Although I cannot help but notice that it's cheap fantasy MMO's that seem to be at the forefront of this kind of thing. Which I think a lot of people neglect to mention or notice. Most sci-fi tends to have a pretty decent representation of both sexes and so do more "realistic" games.
You should have seen the one before the ESRB slapped then on the nose for claiming it was rated Adults Only when it hadn't been rated at all. As another poster has noted, its pretty much Evony only even more desperate.
 

-Axle-

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Again... A PERSON choses what they chose to wear, chooses how they act and has all the rights in the world to do whatever they please with their own body, behaviour and fashion choices.
I'm not sure I follow how you're using this in your argument considering every character that's created out of fiction is not a real person. I could understand if the depiction was of a real person and they chose to exaggerate certain features, but this discussion revolves around a fantasy fictional setting.

I'll try and break this down but please correct me if I'm misunderstanding any of your words.

Windknight said:
A CHARACTER has all this chosen for them by an artists who's intentions are in question. And in the cases that cause people Ire the intention is to provide titillation using characters who are supposed to be strong women.
I have to ask, how do you know what the characters are supposed to be like?

I can understand someone having a desire for characters to be a certain way, but "how they are supposed to be like" is really up to the artist creating them, no? Especially considering these are all net new characters.

In a related tangent, this would imply that an artist who creates male characters that provide titillation to a female audience would somehow suggest that that artists intentions should be brought into question, especially should someone deem that those characters fall short of their definition of "strong men".

Windknight said:
And if this is porn or erotica, that's no problem - sexy outfits have their place.
You say that as if they are separate subjects in all other mediums (like tv, movies, music, etc.). Are you of the opinion that they ought to be strictly separated in those mediums as well?

Windknight said:
if its a fantasy knight who's supposed to be fighting monsters with sword and shield, and the portrayal is more interested in giving us boobs and ass, its weakening the character for the sake of titillation
This is where I disagree the most, the notion that it "weakens the character" is truly a judgement made by the individual, not an objective assessment of that character.

If you simply switch the genders and present them the same way (ie. a Barbarian character like say Conan who fights with a sword and shield, and little else), few people would make the same assessment that it "weakens the character". If anything, people would see the exposed vulnerability as risk-taking and boldness "because its a male character". Can you see where my concern lies with how opinion changes based on the gender of a character?

Does it appeal more to one gender rather than the other? Absolutely.

Does it make it wrong to do so? I have to ask why?

I don't see many men interested in characters like Jacob (Twilight) / Mr Big (SatC) / etc. and likely because those characters appeal more to women than men (they were designed to). Now I'm sure someone will point out that those are all physically moderately proportioned males, and obviously because they are played by real people. Even if they were drawn, they'd likely still be less exaggerated than what you see with female characters and that's because what appeals to women is not the same as what appeals to men, especially when it comes to accentuating physical features. That doesn't equate to one being less "bad" than the other though.

Windknight said:
- this is objectification.
I also have to dispute this. How are they objectified? Are they used as an object in the game? Are they denied recognition as a human being and used as a form of currency or property? Do they not stand alongside all the other heroes on equal footing? How do you even objectify a fictional fantasy character that's not a real person to begin with?

Windknight said:
this is why people don't like the chainmail bikini, and half naked women in these kind of situations.
Agree with your choice of words here. Not liking something because it doesn't appeal to you is okay. A lot of people would also not like men in chainmail bikinis, but that wouldn't make those characters weak, worth less (at a fundamental level, not preference), or wrong compared to any other.

Windknight said:
To bring up an example from comic books, a female character is welding, has an accident and is burned. If, as scripted, she had been wearing safety gear thats all it would have been. But he artist wanted breasts, so put her in a low cut top, which ultimately made the character look like a complete idiot when she had the accident and got burned.
Do you not see how you are projecting your opinion of what constitutes as strength / intelligence in this very same situation. You are judging the character (or setup, whichever you choose) by what you think is important and value, not by what is actually described as happening.

Windknight said:
Please stop trying to say that by being against objectified characters I'm trying to 'slut shame' women who chose their own wardrobes. Its not what I'm saying and you know it.
That's not what I'm saying at all and I hope the above clarifies where I'm coming from.

What I'm against is a destructive attitude towards the portrayal itself.

Going back to the characters that appeal more to women than men. If TV / Movies / etc. were to be overly saturated with nothing but these characters, my opinion wouldn't be that those characters need to disappear / are "worth less" / "bad" / or demean men, it would be that variety is needed to enrich the medium.

For example, how many soap operas contain male characters designed to appeal to men more than women? Is it wrong that they are heavily biased to appeal to women instead of men? Does that make the writer or director have suspect intentions? I have to say no to all of those. Does it enrich the medium to have characters that appeal to both genders? Sure. After all, I'm sure most people would prefer watching Game of Thrones versus The Young and the Restless but that doesn't make The Young and the Restless a bad show because they target one audience over the other.
 

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-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
To bring up an example from comic books, a female character is welding, has an accident and is burned. If, as scripted, she had been wearing safety gear thats all it would have been. But he artist wanted breasts, so put her in a low cut top, which ultimately made the character look like a complete idiot when she had the accident and got burned.
Do you not see how you are projecting your opinion of what constitutes as strength / intelligence in this very same situation. You are judging the character (or setup, whichever you choose) by what you think is important and value, not by what is actually described as happening.
Welding is BLOODY DANGEROUS. people welding wear full HEAVY safety gear for a REASON - because accidents can happen and it deals with, you know, torches super-heating metals at points to be semi molten. This was why the character was scripted as wearing full protective gear - because (A) she knew what she was doing and (B) she knew she NEEDED full protective gear to do it. The artist changing and putting her in skimpy clothes so he could show off her boobs made her look like an idiot who was reckless and didn't know what she was doing. The artist undermined his character just because he wanted boobs.
 

Headdrivehardscrew

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-Dragmire- said:
Pro/Con breakdown is a great addition to the review.

This game looks stunning, I'll definitely be picking it up.
Welcome to the club.

If you liked the old fantasy beat'em slash'em burn'em ups from Capcom and the whole palette of same game, different name, different graphics and stuff, it's pretty awesome. Same basic gameplay as, say, Final Fight (Shadows over Mystara, Tower of Doom, Knights of the Round, Golden Axe, etc. etc. etc), but I find it absolutely enjoyable.
 

-Axle-

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Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
To bring up an example from comic books, a female character is welding, has an accident and is burned. If, as scripted, she had been wearing safety gear thats all it would have been. But he artist wanted breasts, so put her in a low cut top, which ultimately made the character look like a complete idiot when she had the accident and got burned.
Do you not see how you are projecting your opinion of what constitutes as strength / intelligence in this very same situation. You are judging the character (or setup, whichever you choose) by what you think is important and value, not by what is actually described as happening.
Welding is BLOODY DANGEROUS. people welding wear full HEAVY safety gear for a REASON - because accidents can happen and it deals with, you know, torches super-heating metals at points to be semi molten. This was why the character was scripted as wearing full protective gear - because (A) she knew what she was doing and (B) she knew she NEEDED full protective gear to do it. The artist changing and putting her in skimpy clothes so he could show off her boobs made her look like an idiot who was reckless and didn't know what she was doing. The artist undermined his character just because he wanted boobs.
I think you're taking for granted some key assumptions that you're not presenting to others, at least I'm not seeing them.

To me, it would depend on who the character is supposed to be and what the universe is like. Are they some sort of master welder with lots of experience? I don't recall seeing Tony Stark wear full protective gear in his lab and he's constantly getting injured. If they chose to accentuate his abs or muscular waist line (not sure what those lines are called) while shooting the scene, does that make his character an idiot or weak? If so, I'd have to ask why. The same question would apply for a fictional fantasy setting or some hyperbole japanese anime. In those contexts, no, the character's intelligence or preparedness would not seem to be lacking. Their priorities / over-confidence? Sure.

If you were talking about a serious setting, then you'd have an easier time making that argument but then it completely falls out of line with the current subject considering the entire universe is based on exaggeration and exhibitionism.
 

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-Axle- said:
For example, how many soap operas contain male characters designed to appeal to men more than women? Is it wrong that they are heavily biased to appeal to women instead of men? Does that make the writer or director have suspect intentions? I have to say no to all of those. Does it enrich the medium to have characters that appeal to both genders? Sure. After all, I'm sure most people would prefer watching Game of Thrones versus The Young and the Restless but that doesn't make The Young and the Restless a bad show because they target one audience over the other.
The point isn't the appeal, its how the appeal is carried out. The elf character is designed to appeal to men too, but her outfit is sensible for her role. She has actual clothes and her pose it artwork is being combat ready.

There is a difference between sexy, and being sexualised. its the difference between having sex appeal as part of your character design, and having that sex appeal drown out every other aspect. The elf is sexy. The only bare chested male character, the dwarf... well, he may be sexy to some, but that's kinda drowned out by his power and strength.

Also, its the appropriateness of the sexiness. To borrow from my welding example - why did someone welding need to be sexy? whats sexy about welding? Its an industrial activity using dangerous tools. not something where 'being sexy' is a priority for choosing your attire, but again, they are not choosing their attire, are they? The artist and/or writer is.

Finally, Attractiveness is a positive, but it is not a positive that many women want to define them, and often art like this emphasizes attractiveness in a manner that undermines the positives they would rather be admired. A weightlifter would rather her physical prowess be talked about than her beauty, A scientist would prefer her intelligence and knowledge, and a soldier would prefer her experience and skill.

To go back tot he art for the Amazon and the Sorceress, we have a skilled warrior who fights with a sword, and powerful magic user commanding destructive magics. can you please tell me, how does the promotional art of them show these skills and talents?
 

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-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
If you were talking about a serious setting, then you'd have an easier time making that argument but then it completely falls out of line with the current subject considering the entire universe is based on exaggeration and exhibitionism.
Again the Writer had decided she knew enough about what she was doing to wear the proper gear. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the artists decision to overide that because he wanted fanservice was at bets misguided?
 

hermes

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Masterdebator said:
hermes200 said:
Masterdebator said:
Maybe one day certain individuals online will realize the strange fact that art styles/ character models in a fantasy setting are in no way bound to reflect reality.
They don't reflect reality, but they do reflect intent. Most people jumping at the defense of the art style make it look like its characteristics are on the eye of the beholder, when in truth it was an intentional decision in the part of the developer.
If accentuating physical proportions translates into an "intent", than it can be applied to every billion dollar superhero franchise in existence.
Of course it can, in fact, I am not sure how that is a counter-example.

Intent exists in every single media since, when building something from the ground up, there are few things left at random... Someone, somewhere, saw the Sorcerer and thought her wardrobe was appropriate for the game, the same way someone saw Batman's nipples in Batman & Robin or the hole where the logo usually is in Power Girl's costume and thought they were appropriate. Not only appropriate, but that they communicated what they wanted to communicate with those characters. Someone made a picture of Power Girl with a logo and another with the cleavage, and someone else decided the cleavage represented the character better. The only excuse is when the creator is too incompetent to realize his design decisions might have unfortunate consequences, reactions and interpretations (for example, the Twilight books), but given VanillaWare reputation, I believe its safe to assume that they designed and included every character to create exactly the kind of reaction that they expect. To assume otherwise would be even more insulting to the creator...

The issue is not whether the art style is adequate or not. In the end, the creator is the only one accountable for the content of the game and if he wants to show a pillar made of penises, its his prerogative. If someone enjoys it, its his prerogative too. However, the issue I have with this is when he/the community jump at a defensive stand about the decisions made, as if they own a justification for them. I would have more respect for an answer that says "I knew what I was getting into, and either I don't mind, or I like it the way it is. If you don't like it, there are other games outside..." that those that try to justify it as if the art design was something completely accidental and tangential to the game. Dragon's Crown would not be DC without the over the top, sexually heavy, stylized art style, so people shouldn't talk like their experience with the game was independent of the way VW choose it to look.
 

Ferisar

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StriderShinryu said:
Hmmm... not sure I agree with using "Questionable taste" as a con. While I can see why the reviewer may not have appreciated the visual design of the game, and I find it rather offputting as well, that's just far too subjective a thing to be labelled as a ciriticism in a professional review. We're not talking about the game allowing you to kill children here, we're just talking about women (and men) drawn in extermely exaggerated fashion.
I disagree. Questionable taste is an entirely valid criticism wrapped in some figurative language. The game's approach to design will put people off, and not in a kind of "Oh, they don't like cel-shading" kind of way. It's off-putting to the point of a good amount of people being off-put, thus worth mentioning. Also, it's a reviewer. Their job is to judge. Barring the subjective nature of life, it's entirely fair to judge based on those criteria.
 

-Axle-

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Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
For example, how many soap operas contain male characters designed to appeal to men more than women? Is it wrong that they are heavily biased to appeal to women instead of men? Does that make the writer or director have suspect intentions? I have to say no to all of those. Does it enrich the medium to have characters that appeal to both genders? Sure. After all, I'm sure most people would prefer watching Game of Thrones versus The Young and the Restless but that doesn't make The Young and the Restless a bad show because they target one audience over the other.
The point isn't the appeal, its how the appeal is carried out. The elf character is designed to appeal to men too, but her outfit is sensible for her role. She has actual clothes and her pose it artwork is being combat ready.

There is a difference between sexy, and being sexualised. its the difference between having sex appeal as part of your character design, and having that sex appeal drown out every other aspect. The elf is sexy. The only bare chested male character, the dwarf... well, he may be sexy to some, but that's kinda drowned out by his power and strength.

Also, its the appropriateness of the sexiness. To borrow from my welding example - why did someone welding need to be sexy? whats sexy about welding? Its an industrial activity using dangerous tools. not something where 'being sexy' is a priority for choosing your attire, but again, they are not choosing their attire, are they? The artist and/or writer is.

Finally, Attractiveness is a positive, but it is not a positive that many women want to define them, and often art like this emphasizes attractiveness in a manner that undermines the positives they would rather be admired. A weightlifter would rather her physical prowess be talked about than her beauty, A scientist would prefer her intelligence and knowledge, and a soldier would prefer her experience and skill.

To go back tot he art for the Amazon and the Sorceress, we have a skilled warrior who fights with a sword, and powerful magic user commanding destructive magics. can you please tell me, how does the promotional art of them show these skills and talents?
What you seem to be arguing now is a matter of "tastefulness".

I don't disagree that someone can find the art distasteful but I have to ask why that's a problem that should be addressed. I don't mean that facetiously, I ask because I think its worth mentioning that a woman wearing a skirt in the wrong culture can also be seen as distasteful to others as well.

What's "sensible" is a product of a lot of outside influences and it evolves over time and with society. What responsibility does a video game, specifically one set in a fictional fantasy setting, have towards displaying any subject matter tastefully? Should an artist always try to appeal to the sensibilities of every demographic out there? A minimum number of two demographics (male and female)?

Flipping the tables again, if someone designed the same game but with the intention to appeal primarily to a female demographic with male characters that are not seen as "tastefull" or "sensible", is that something that is wrong / negative / should not exist / etc.? And if so, why?

I have to keep coming back to the question of why and I hope you understand why that is (no pun intended).
 

StriderShinryu

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Ferisar said:
StriderShinryu said:
Hmmm... not sure I agree with using "Questionable taste" as a con. While I can see why the reviewer may not have appreciated the visual design of the game, and I find it rather offputting as well, that's just far too subjective a thing to be labelled as a ciriticism in a professional review. We're not talking about the game allowing you to kill children here, we're just talking about women (and men) drawn in extermely exaggerated fashion.
I disagree. Questionable taste is an entirely valid criticism wrapped in some figurative language. The game's approach to design will put people off, and not in a kind of "Oh, they don't like cel-shading" kind of way. It's off-putting to the point of a good amount of people being off-put, thus worth mentioning. Also, it's a reviewer. Their job is to judge. Barring the subjective nature of life, it's entirely fair to judge based on those criteria.
I can certainly respect that. It just seems, to me, that "Questionable taste" is such a blanket statement. There are many people who would find, for instance, all of the violence and death in games like Call of Duty or Gears of War to be of "questionable taste." You almost never, however, see that sort of thing listed as an onjective negative in review bullet point.

I can understand why someone may be turned off of a game due to it's visual style, and I don't expect that to not colour the review to some extent, but it just doesn't feel professional to me to use such a blanket statement in what appears as the closing remark.
 

Yuuki

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Legion said:


This is actually a real advertisement for the game. It's... kind of disturbing. They also chose the worst time possible to try and advertise their crap like this. Or maybe they did it on purpose to gain attention and notoriety?
Legion said:
Personally I prefer the PopCap way of dealing with it:



It is a much better way of pointing out how idiotic it is than complaining I feel.
You'll stop seeing such adverts when they stop WORKING and luring clicks. I thought that would have been extremely obvious.

It costs money to put adverts there, nothing is free, and the people doing it aren't morons - they know what grabs attention, what the typical gender/age of the person browsing that particular site is, etc. All they need to do after that is advertise accordingly and BAM, lots of clicks on their advert.

People like you and me (who see it as sleezy) make up maybe 0.01% of the internet's population, so I don't know what you're getting at with "the worst time possible".

Using sex to advertise products still works as good as ever, and until it stops working you won't see it go away. I'm personally fine with it, it doesn't really bother me. Because whining about it is the equivalent of beating your fists against a glacier to make it stop moving. Oh and the glacier is being pushed from the other side by 50 million people.
 

BehattedWanderer

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What I kept coming back to during this review:

It's Gauntlet, but not as good as Gauntlet. Playing this game will make you miss playing Gauntlet, and lament that Midway died.

I want to get it, but seeing as everything I saw in the video just made me want to play Gauntlet, maybe I'll just do that instead.
 

WindKnight

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-Axle- said:
What's "sensible" is a product of a lot of outside influences and it evolves over time and with society. What responsibility does a video game, specifically one set in a fictional fantasy setting, have towards displaying any subject matter tastefully? Should an artist always try to appeal to the sensibilities of every demographic out there? A minimum number of two demographics (male and female)?

Flipping the tables again, if someone designed the same game but with the intention to appeal primarily to a female demographic with male characters that are not seen as "tastefull" or "sensible", is that something that is wrong / negative / should not exist / etc.? And if so, why?

I have to keep coming back to the question of why and I hope you understand why that is (no pun intended).
Except we're not talking about one videogame here really. If it was just one videogame, no-one would really take offence or notice, apart from liking or disliking the art on its own merits according to their own personal tastes. This is about how videogames in general, comics in general and other media in general treat women. Dragons Crown is not being singled out, its being caught up alongside all the other games and comics treating women as tits and ass objects and not as characters and people. None of my arguments have been about one game specifically or one comic specifically except as examples of a trend as a whole, and that trend is women being portrayed as sexy first, and any other merits they have being ignored because they don't promote that sexiness.

And to reiterate - a lot of women do not want to be defined by their appearance, good or bad, and if their gamers, find it uncomfortable to find the vast of majority of characters of their genders are pretty much created to show off as much skin as possible - to appeal to a teenage male, without any thought to appeal to a teenage girl or a woman.

And again, if this was just one game, people would not be bothered. But it is NOT just one game. its the vast majority of them.
 

Hazy

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Are we really still going on about the game's "questionable portrayal of women"?

How about we talk about the portrayal of the men? The Fighter is tall, handsome, and battlefield-capable while still sporting a gorgeous face and luscious head of hair. The Dwarf is short, incredibly muscular, angry, and drunken. Oh, and the Wizard sports a slender physique and effeminate face.

So the male roster is comprised of a model, bishonen pretty boy, and a jacked, angry little man. I'm sure this will offend the sensibilities of all the normal, non-muscular, gorgeous, or physically fit male gamers out there, making it impossible for them to become invested in their character.

Over the top stereotypical muscle dudes in gaming?
No one complains.

Over the top sexualized women in gaming?
Now there's a problem.
 

EvilRoy

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erttheking said:
Capitano Segnaposto said:
LifeCharacter said:
That was a word for word conversation I had somebody with Twitter (yes, I know. Shame on me for using Twitter).

Also, why is it always a double standard? If you see a women with huge breasts and little clothing, it is sexist. As you put it, "being reduced to a combination of breasts, ass, a lack of clothing, and stupid poses". Yet, the same exact description holds true to the male characters like the dwarf and warrior. Little clothing, huge muscles, giant pack, "heroic" poses. Yet, you deem it as a power fantasy. It isn't to me and MANY Men out there. Most men, as has been said in this very thread, don't consider this a power fantasy.

This is the issue I have with the whole deal. It is NEVER anything but a "Power Fantasy" as you put it, even though I find it disturbing just as much as a women does with the Sorceress. Which is utter and complete bullshit and you know it.

The only difference in this whole thing is that most men out there that I know don't take offense to it. Why should we? Sure a lot of us find it disgusting, but it is a fucking GAME. A game all about overly exaggerated features. This, besides the obvious double standard that you have so clearly shown, is what I don't get.
Also, here's the thing that makes things different. Intent and purpose of design, in other words, what the intent of the design and the purpose of it. The intent of the design of characters with sexualized bodies making poses is too look sexy and the purpose of that design is to appeal to the male audience. The intent of big muscular men who beat up hundreds of people at once is to be a power fantasy, and the purpose of design is also to appeal to a male audience. And that's where the problem comes in, male characters are designed to appeal to males, but female characters are also designed to appeal to males. You may not personally like them, and a lot of people may not, but the thing is that was the intent behind their design, to pander to the male audience.
Something I thought I would just throw in here as a point of interest. The reason why he personally, me personally, likely you personally and indeed most males personally don't find the male characters appealing as a power fantasy is because they kind of aren't. Or at least they haven't been for a few decades now, it's nearly been half a century since might actually made right. What they really represent is more of an adolescent wish fulfillment fantasy, an expression of the idea that being a big strong hero would grant the admiration of peers, essentially the same as the idea that being a pretty princess would grant the admiration of peers. In order to succeed at the only thing that matters (peer perception of you) you need only be big strong and run around being big and strong, or walk about regally while being pretty.

Real male power fantasies are pretty easily found. Don Draper was voted the most influential man of 2009. Not the actor, the character. Why was he lauded as such? Because for the last at least fifty years, maybe more, real power has come wearing a suit. Even more so in the past decade as areas outside of business where men often sought out power, such as politics, are being viewed as ineffectual. Why do you think people watch wrestlers like they're circus performers, but hang on a CEO's every word? Muscles haven't meant power in a long time now.
 

Tanis

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I wonder if all you 'white knights' and 'P.C. police' will be willing to post 4/5 pages of 'OMG SEXISM' the next time a 'mainstream' game comes out with the same bullcrap.


But, I doubt it, because it's easier to attack a game that's not some AAA tripe than it is to attack a game that is.
 

Nasrin

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Tanis said:
I wonder if all you 'white knights' and 'P.C. police' will be willing to post 4/5 pages of 'OMG SEXISM' the next time a 'mainstream' game comes out with the same bullcrap.

But, I doubt it, because it's easier to attack a game that's not some AAA tripe than it is to attack a game that is.
First off, I have to say that being called a white knight or the PC police whenever I take issue with sexism in a game, regardless of how blatant it is, does kind of take the sting out of the words. But do keep calling people that; it helps others know how seriously they need to take the things you say.

Anyway, it's not that it's easier to attack a non-AAA game, it's that it's easier to attack a game with so many examples for people to point at and say "That's kind of sexist." If the Sorceress wasn't multiclassing as a stripper, and if the Amazon had actual clothing, and if there wasn't that nice image of a nun with her legs spread open, and if most of the females in this game didn't have their sex appeal ramped up, then it would probably be a bit difficult. Put all of those things in a AAA game and it's just as easy to "attack" as Dragon's Crown.

Oh, and there's this.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.378384-Well-I-wont-be-buying-the-new-Tomb-Raider
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.380418-Tomb-Raider-Dev-Rape-is-Not-in-Our-Vocabulary
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.379569-Poll-Lara-and-the-Tomb-raider-controversy?page=1
Three threads about the Tomb Raider controversy. All of them are over five pages long.
 

-Axle-

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Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
Windknight said:
-Axle- said:
If you were talking about a serious setting, then you'd have an easier time making that argument but then it completely falls out of line with the current subject considering the entire universe is based on exaggeration and exhibitionism.
Again the Writer had decided she knew enough about what she was doing to wear the proper gear. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the artists decision to overide that because he wanted fanservice was at bets misguided?
I'm a little lost, so you're implying that one person wrote the scene and another changed it? Is that what happened in Dragon's Crown? or only in the example you are giving?
 

Erttheking

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Tanis said:
I wonder if all you 'white knights' and 'P.C. police' will be willing to post 4/5 pages of 'OMG SEXISM' the next time a 'mainstream' game comes out with the same bullcrap.


But, I doubt it, because it's easier to attack a game that's not some AAA tripe than it is to attack a game that is.
I'm sorry, I think the design of the characters is stupid, how does that make me a white knight?
 

Erttheking

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Yuuki said:
Legion said:


This is actually a real advertisement for the game. It's... kind of disturbing. They also chose the worst time possible to try and advertise their crap like this. Or maybe they did it on purpose to gain attention and notoriety?
Legion said:
Personally I prefer the PopCap way of dealing with it:



It is a much better way of pointing out how idiotic it is than complaining I feel.
You'll stop seeing such adverts when they stop WORKING and luring clicks. I thought that would have been extremely obvious.

It costs money to put adverts there, nothing is free, and the people doing it aren't morons - they know what grabs attention, what the typical gender/age of the person browsing that particular site is, etc. All they need to do after that is advertise accordingly and BAM, lots of clicks on their advert.

People like you and me (who see it as sleezy) make up maybe 0.01% of the internet's population, so I don't know what you're getting at with "the worst time possible".

Using sex to advertise products still works as good as ever, and until it stops working you won't see it go away. I'm personally fine with it, it doesn't really bother me. Because whining about it is the equivalent of beating your fists against a glacier to make it stop moving. Oh and the glacier is being pushed from the other side by 50 million people.
Confucius said something once. If a thousand people do a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. I'm sorry, but I don't consider "It's popular" to be an adequate defense of something.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Regarding the issue of "games made for men", I have a very simple point to make.


In my view, people of all genders should make games they themselves would like to play. If you're making a game you wouldn't wanna play, obviously the result would be half-assed. It would be like cooking your least liked kind of food for someone else to eat. Surely, someone who likes that food would make it better and if you were to make YOUR favorite kind of food, it'd also be a way better specimen than the dish which was not to your taste.



The fact that so many games are made for men is simply an unavoidable sideffect of people doing the right thing and making games they themselves would actually want to play, that they themselves have a passion for.


To say that men should have a passion for female-oriented issues is both dumb and unrealistic. Why should they be forced to like or be inspired by certain things? Art doesn't work like that. You can't force OR blame someone for feeling one way or another in regards to their artistic expression through game design.



As long as males make games, games will be male oriented. If you want more games to be made for women, you need more women to make games. This doesn't mean that women have to just inflitrate everything. They just need to start making their own little niche and develop games with other women, without needing to be "allowed" to do this by anyone. They need to devote the resources and time that others with similarly unpopular dream-games have devoted in the past and they need to take a risk and hope that there is an actually sustainable market for their dream project out there.


That, I think, is the only way for this situation to be fixed. Asking men to make half-assed games that they're not into is only bound to produce loathsome mediocrity which will further absolutely nothing and harm a whole lot.
 

Paragon Fury

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Nun with her legs spread open you say?

I'll see that and raise you "Angel with jiggle physics striptease and fingering herself introduction":

 

Yuuki

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erttheking said:
Confucius said something once. If a thousand people do a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. I'm sorry, but I don't consider "It's popular" to be an adequate defense of something.
Never said it was an adequate defense or any kind of defense at all, dunno where you pulled that from. Merely stating the obvious. Confucius forgot to add "if a thousand people desire foolish things, foolish things will continue to exist".

I'm totally fine with this sort of foolish thing because it's not hurting anyone. If people are going to play the "hurting women's image!" card, I can only put them into the same category as those tinfoil-hat-wearers who immediately blame Call Of Duty to the most recent school shooting, or consider killing a boar in Far Cry 3 as animal cruelty. Such people are free to exist in their own void/dimension and I typically don't bother responding to them, their opinions aren't worth it.

Dreiko said:
Regarding the issue of "games made for men", I have a very simple point to make.

In my view, people of all genders should make games they themselves would like to play. If you're making a game you wouldn't wanna play, obviously the result would be half-assed. It would be like cooking your least liked kind of food for someone else to eat. Surely, someone who likes that food would make it better and if you were to make YOUR favorite kind of food, it'd also be a way better specimen than the dish which was not to your taste.

The fact that so many games are made for men is simply an unavoidable sideffect of people doing the right thing and making games they themselves would actually want to play, that they themselves have a passion for.

To say that men should have a passion for female-oriented issues is both dumb and unrealistic. Why should they be forced to like or be inspired by certain things? Art doesn't work like that. You can't force OR blame someone for feeling one way or another in regards to their artistic expression through game design.

As long as males make games, games will be male oriented. If you want more games to be made for women, you need more women to make games. This doesn't mean that women have to just inflitrate everything. They just need to start making their own little niche and develop games with other women, without needing to be "allowed" to do this by anyone. They need to devote the resources and time that others with similarly unpopular dream-games have devoted in the past and they need to take a risk and hope that there is an actually sustainable market for their dream project out there.

That, I think, is the only way for this situation to be fixed. Asking men to make half-assed games that they're not into is only bound to produce loathsome mediocrity which will further absolutely nothing and harm a whole lot.
Nice post, agreed. But could've saved yourself the effort of typing all that by just posting this 2 minute video :p

 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Yuuki said:
erttheking said:
Confucius said something once. If a thousand people do a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. I'm sorry, but I don't consider "It's popular" to be an adequate defense of something.
Never said it was an adequate defense or any kind of defense at all, dunno where you pulled that from. Merely stating the obvious. Confucius forgot to add "if a thousand people desire foolish things, foolish things will continue to exist".

I'm totally fine with this sort of foolish thing because it's not hurting anyone. If people are going to play the "hurting women's image!" card, I can only put them into the same category as those tinfoil-hat-wearers who immediately blame Call Of Duty to the most recent school shooting, or consider killing a boar in Far Cry 3 as animal cruelty. Such people are free to exist in their own void/dimension and I typically don't bother responding to them, their opinions aren't worth typing a response to.

Dreiko said:
Regarding the issue of "games made for men", I have a very simple point to make.

In my view, people of all genders should make games they themselves would like to play. If you're making a game you wouldn't wanna play, obviously the result would be half-assed. It would be like cooking your least liked kind of food for someone else to eat. Surely, someone who likes that food would make it better and if you were to make YOUR favorite kind of food, it'd also be a way better specimen than the dish which was not to your taste.

The fact that so many games are made for men is simply an unavoidable sideffect of people doing the right thing and making games they themselves would actually want to play, that they themselves have a passion for.

To say that men should have a passion for female-oriented issues is both dumb and unrealistic. Why should they be forced to like or be inspired by certain things? Art doesn't work like that. You can't force OR blame someone for feeling one way or another in regards to their artistic expression through game design.

As long as males make games, games will be male oriented. If you want more games to be made for women, you need more women to make games. This doesn't mean that women have to just inflitrate everything. They just need to start making their own little niche and develop games with other women, without needing to be "allowed" to do this by anyone. They need to devote the resources and time that others with similarly unpopular dream-games have devoted in the past and they need to take a risk and hope that there is an actually sustainable market for their dream project out there.

That, I think, is the only way for this situation to be fixed. Asking men to make half-assed games that they're not into is only bound to produce loathsome mediocrity which will further absolutely nothing and harm a whole lot.
Nice post, agreed. But could've saved yourself the effort of typing all that by just posting this 2 minute video :p

Ah well, I just felt like writing this and I had not seen this video so it's alright. :p
 

Paragon Fury

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LifeCharacter said:
RapeisGenocide said:
erttheking said:
The fact that video games should only be designed for men is an unhealthy mindset and the idea that people of one gender can't design games that the other gender can enjoy just doesn't make any sense.
Because I'm sure you're just dying to play a game squarely about romance that also comes with jewelry; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw4cFZCsBPA

I hate to break it to you, but men and women are completely different beings who crave completely different things. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.
Otherwise, don't make arguments that men and women crave completely different things always and forever based on nothing other than the evidence that men and women raised in a society that tells them that they should like something, happen to like that something.
Actually, yeah. Its kind of true. While I don't have free access to it anymore since its been too long since I graduated from college, if I could I would link to a bunch of well-researched studies and discussions about this very thing. But the layman's short English version is this;

Males are predisposed towards aggression, (over)confidence, violence, competition and recklessness etc. because males who are ultimately wind up in superior positions compared to their peers who are not so in the long run - more resources, safer, live longer, more and better mates and such. Life for men is essential one LONG competition to prove who is best and most deserving of things. There is literally not a moment/stage in a male's life where they aren't in competition with other males, even if they don't realize it. If you trace our genetic history for example, most males who have ever lived have NO ONE alive today with their genetic information for example. As opposed to females who almost ALL have someone alive today with their genetic information in them somewhere.

Females are generally more predisposed towards passivity, cooperation, timidity and caution etc. because females who do tend to be more successful than their female peers who are not. They get better mates, have more resources, are more respected etc. in the long run. They develop different interests from men simply because they don't have the same reasons as men to be interested in things.
 

Erttheking

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Yuuki said:
Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard. As for games that they're interested in, taste in video games isn't exactly defined by gender. My female friend likes shooters just as much as any guy. I'm not saying that developers should drop everything they do and start all over again to appeal to women, I'm just saying that they should remember that women are buying the games too. And frankly the solution to that is easy, a balanced cast. Persona 4 did it no problem. Really the writing in the industry right now just kind of sucks overall, that's a big part of the problem as is the over reliance on sex. It needs to be worked on.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Yuuki said:
Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard. As for games that they're interested in, taste in video games isn't exactly defined by gender. My female friend likes shooters just as much as any guy. I'm not saying that developers should drop everything they do and start all over again to appeal to women, I'm just saying that they should remember that women are buying the games too. And frankly the solution to that is easy, a balanced cast. Persona 4 did it no problem. Really the writing in the industry right now just kind of sucks overall, that's a big part of the problem as is the over reliance on sex. It needs to be worked on.
Persona 4 did a lot of things which count as sexist too, they were just never brought under a microscope like how Dragon's Crown stuff was. Rise's entire dungeon or Yukiko's LITERAL damsel in distess Shadow could have very easily become targets of controversy. (never mind the Christmas eve sexual encounters with the entire female leads and support cast, the padgeons, the bathingsuit scene of the field trip, Nanako joking about marrying you, Mooroka buying gravure magazines of 15-year-old girl idols despite being a teacher, Rise being refered to as "inexperienced jailbait" by another teacher, etc. etc. etc.)


Well-written female characters do not preclude games from having content someone can potentially find objectionable if they were pre-desposed to being offended by something. Often times both co-exist as a singular expression. Especially so in Japanese-made things.
 

Erttheking

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Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
Yuuki said:
Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard. As for games that they're interested in, taste in video games isn't exactly defined by gender. My female friend likes shooters just as much as any guy. I'm not saying that developers should drop everything they do and start all over again to appeal to women, I'm just saying that they should remember that women are buying the games too. And frankly the solution to that is easy, a balanced cast. Persona 4 did it no problem. Really the writing in the industry right now just kind of sucks overall, that's a big part of the problem as is the over reliance on sex. It needs to be worked on.
Persona 4 did a lot of things which count as sexist too, they were just never brought under a microscope like how Dragon's Crown stuff was. Rise's entire dungeon or Yukiko's LITERAL damsel in distess Shadow could have very easily become targets of controversy. (never mind the Christmas eve sexual encounters with the entire female leads and support cast, the padgeons, the bathingsuit scene of the field trip, Nanako joking about marrying you, Mooroka buying gravure magazines of 15-year-old girl idols despite being a teacher, etc. etc. etc.)


Well-written female characters do not preclude games from having content someone can potentially find objectionable if they were pre-desposed to being offended by something. Often times both co-exist as a singular expression. Especially so in Japanese-made things.
But Persona 4 got away with it for a reason, and it was for a very good reason. Damsel in distress is not an inherently bad trope, and Persona 4 handled it better than most because the damsel in distress was a personification of Yukiko's insecurity of feeling helpless. Arguing that that was sexist would be like arguing that Kanji's shadow was homophobic, it's not saying being feminine or homosexual is bad, it was a personification of their fears. Also with the rest of the examples, I think you're kind of missing the point with exactly why Dragon's Crown is under such heavy controversy. Pretty much all of those things were jokes which added to the very light hearted atmosphere, and the Christmas encounters were the culmination of a relationship that had been building up over a long time, in some cases the course of the entire game. Not to mention the sex was "You spend a long time with x" so I don't follow the concept of it being sexist. Though I suppose there's the "do it with everyone" aspect, but even then that's more down to the player being a dick.

But you're missing the main point, do you know why people don't really get mad at Persona 4 for those things? Because the female characters in that game were people. The entire cast was comprised of well rounded, sensibly designed characters all of them likable in their own way. Chie, Yukiko, Rise and Naoto were all well developed people. The Sorceress is just a woman with big breasts. No redeeming qualities, nothing else to her. A woman with big breasts is her lone identity. And that's why people get mad at Dragon's Crown and not Persona 4.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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erttheking said:
Dreiko said:
erttheking said:
Yuuki said:
Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.

Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard. As for games that they're interested in, taste in video games isn't exactly defined by gender. My female friend likes shooters just as much as any guy. I'm not saying that developers should drop everything they do and start all over again to appeal to women, I'm just saying that they should remember that women are buying the games too. And frankly the solution to that is easy, a balanced cast. Persona 4 did it no problem. Really the writing in the industry right now just kind of sucks overall, that's a big part of the problem as is the over reliance on sex. It needs to be worked on.
Persona 4 did a lot of things which count as sexist too, they were just never brought under a microscope like how Dragon's Crown stuff was. Rise's entire dungeon or Yukiko's LITERAL damsel in distess Shadow could have very easily become targets of controversy. (never mind the Christmas eve sexual encounters with the entire female leads and support cast, the padgeons, the bathingsuit scene of the field trip, Nanako joking about marrying you, Mooroka buying gravure magazines of 15-year-old girl idols despite being a teacher, etc. etc. etc.)


Well-written female characters do not preclude games from having content someone can potentially find objectionable if they were pre-desposed to being offended by something. Often times both co-exist as a singular expression. Especially so in Japanese-made things.
But Persona 4 got away with it for a reason, and it was for a very good reason. Damsel in distress is not an inherently bad trope, and Persona 4 handled it better than most because the damsel in distress was a personification of Yukiko's insecurity of feeling helpless. Arguing that that was sexist would be like arguing that Kanji's shadow was homophobic, it's not saying being feminine or homosexual is bad, it was a personification of their fears. Also with the rest of the examples, I think you're kind of missing the point with exactly why Dragon's Crown is under such heavy controversy. Pretty much all of those things were jokes which added to the very light hearted atmosphere, and the Christmas encounters were the culmination of a relationship that had been building up over a long time, in some cases the course of the entire game. Not to mention the sex was "You spend a long time with x" so I don't follow the concept of it being sexist. Though I suppose there's the "do it with everyone" aspect, but even then that's more down to the player being a dick.

But you're missing the main point, do you know why people don't really get mad at Persona 4 for those things? Because the female characters in that game were people. The entire cast was comprised of well rounded, sensibly designed characters all of them likable in their own way. Chie, Yukiko, Rise and Naoto were all well developed people. The Sorceress is just a woman with big breasts. No redeeming qualities, nothing else to her. A woman with big breasts is her lone identity. And that's why people get mad at Dragon's Crown and not Persona 4.

I don't think we even know who she is yet, that's the issue. The game isn't out. You may find out more about her than the story. I think it is the people rather than the game itself which makes her "the boob person" or some such thing. To me she's a magician who throws fireballs and hurricanes and can bring skeletons to life way more than a pair of overly supple breasts.


It's also quite unfair and unrealistic to demand that a agme such as this have the level of character detail and depth than a game like persona did. This genre just isn't suited for that, it doesn't have an hour and a half worth of cutscenes when you press new game before letting you do anything other than progress the dialog box. You literally are unfair in expecting it to compare with that level of characterization and to build that level of deep motivation for why each person looks as they do.



You're saying that contexts redeems potentially sexist things of their sexism in persona, I agree, I feel this game's context as a "lightearted, satyrical, fantasy/DnD trope reimagining" does the same. It redeems the sorceress out of any sexism and turns her into an over the top variant of the typical sexy witch trope that has persisted for ages.
 

Yuuki

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erttheking said:
Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.
Criticize away, never said you couldn't. Some people criticize the existence of strip clubs, guess how effective that criticism has been? Last time I checked they're everywhere, big cities especially.

I repeat, criticize away. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it :)

erttheking said:
Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard.
Then become a game developer and show everyone how it's done. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it :)
 

Erttheking

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Yuuki said:
erttheking said:
Just because it exists and is popular doesn't mean that it is immune from criticism.
Criticize away, never said you couldn't. Some people criticize the existence of strip clubs, guess how effective that criticism has been? Last time I checked they're everywhere, big cities especially.

I repeat, criticize away. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it :)

erttheking said:
Also I have to disagree with that video. It basically says that the reason there's so much sexism in the industry is because men can't write female characters, that's not true. I write female characters all the time, it's not hard.
Then become a game developer and show those men how it's done. Nothing is stopping you. Have at it :)
You know, I have to say I really don't like that argument, I want to write, but I want to write books, more control over the creative vision and more of a personal touch. I have no idea how to get a job in the gaming industry, I have no desire to get a job in the gaming industry, gaming is my hobby, I don't want to make my hobby my job, that is a very miserable experience. Not to mention writing in the gaming industry has been proven to be a nightmare considering that you have to fight tooth and nail in order to have the main character be a woman.

I'm sorry, it just kind of annoys me that you can't really seem to criticize some things without the "Let's see you do better" argument, and I just really REALLY don't like that argument. I have no money, I'm still in college, and game developer is a very unstable job. I don't WANT to write for video games, but just because I write and don't write for video games doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize the design for characters. I mean, designing sensible female characters isn't hard. Look, I came up with these a year ago.

http://s3.photobucket.com/user/neko-hime-cfi/media/FROMASHES2.png.html
 

Yuuki

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