EA Hosting Panel on Homophobia in Gaming

[Mockingjay]

I'm sorry but... How does personal preference towards whom you're attracted to affect video games? I can't see why it would matter if you were hetrosexual or gay... Or maybe I'm just naive.

 

[squid5580]

Ok for the love of Pete this has nothing to do with homosexuals in games. Why on earth the author of this article didn't link what this is truly about baffles me.

he did. both incidents you mention were linked in the first paragraph:

but recent news [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.90841] has shown that the issue of how to handle homophobia

it's a shame that very few people seemed to notice, since most of seem to have no understanding of what the issues are.

2. OMG that is so homophobic on MS's part and they should have banned everyone who sent her the messages, harrassed her online ect ect. She should be allowed to say she is a lesbian since it is a part of who she is. That is a stupid rule.

i'm not sure i'd call microsoft homophobic, (although others have [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/90426-Designer-Accuses-Microsoft-Of-Homophobia])
but it IS a stupid rule. it's intended to protect homosexuals from discrimination, yet the rule itself is discriminatory.

How is the rule discrimitory? I could see it as discrimination if the rule was "if you are homosexual don't put it in your profile" but this is not the case. The rule is there to protect everyone from everyone else. Would you expect any less of a reaction if say she didn't put in her profile that whe was a lesbian but had a foot fetish. Or she was into the same fetish as the girls from 2 girls one cup? Especially when it is not just adults who will see your profile. Do you want to try to explain to a 5 yr old what a lesbian is? Or what it means to be straight? An xbox profile should not be the inspiration for the birds and the bees talk.

I wouldn't call MS homophobic either. I was just explaining the reaction from the majority of the crowd around here is a simplified manner.

 

[squid5580]

I would love to live in a world where we all held hands and sang campfire songs. Where we could simply use our words to resolve our differences. Sure it would mean games and movies would be pretty boring but that is a small sacrifice. And whenever someone figures out what causes our violent urges and whatever else that causes this crap to happen, develops a drug and makes everyone in the world take it well we got to make the best with what we have. And so far the only thing we have is punishment.

Um, okay--but what does that have to do with anything?

Man did you forget everything from yesterday? The last paragraph was in response to this:

So? You told me "Umm no the reason is for a safer and civil society." A society where there was never a transgression in the first place is a safer and more civil one than one where the transgression is rectified.

Oh, okay--then what does any of that have to do with you saying that crimes that can be rectified should have a sentence that is less of a deterrent than ones that can? If your imagined scenario is the ultimate deterrence short of torture, why not use it in every case?

In fact, why NOT use torture?

Easy say someone steals 1000 bucks from you. Would you rather get the money back or have them rot in prison for the rest of thier lives? You won't get it back if they are in jail.

You said you were going to put them on a chaingang--why can't they pay me with the proceeds of their hard labor?

And if you start torturing how are you any better than the criminals you torture?

If you force someone to "rot in a tiny cell eating tastless gruel for the rest of your days inbetween being put to intense physical labor (the chaingang)" how are you any better than the criminals?

And how exactly are you going to motivate them to actually go work on this chaingang you seem so excited about without torture when you've got them "in a tiny cell eating tastless gruel" until they die already?

So being in a nice cushy cell with cable, a full library and living better than a poor honest person is a deterrent? And after a few weeks in the tiny cell don't you think they would jump at the chance to go do some work?

 

[squid5580]

Since she is a part of the homosexual community some considered this action as homophobic on MS's part this divided the gaming community into 3 parts.

1. She violated the rules and got what she had coming.

2. OMG that is so homophobic on MS's part and they should have banned everyone who sent her the messages, harrassed her online ect ect. She should be allowed to say she is a lesbian since it is a part of who she is. That is a stupid rule.

and of course

3. Who cares lets play Halo

They forgot 4. They should use her account as a honeypot and ban those people because they're the ones who make Xbox Live suck for everyone else, gay or straight--ban those idiots and I might have a reason to put my headset on when playing Halo.

Or and this is a big or you could use the system they have in place already to protect you from the idiots. You know the whole mute player and block communication system. Oh thats right MS should be the ones protecting you. God forbid you have to do a bit to protect yourself.

As I mentioned before I think the intent of this panel is more agenda based than anything.

Uh, it states right in the article: "a conversation about combating homophobia online." Why would you think it's anything but agenda based after reading that?

But, as Cobra_Ky pointed out, that remains to be seen as it would cost them a lot of business to promote that agenda,

Why do you say that? The kind of people who will be offended by promoting this 'agenda' AND are video game customers are in general the kind of people who only do what they do out of ignorance and immaturity, not some kind of deep-seated core values.

People who yell "fag" every other second online are still going to go buy Madden; the kind of people who make up the target demographics for things like Second Life and The Sims are probably on board with that agenda.

For every customer this turns away, it'll draw in at least two.

it all depends on whether they are willing to put politics ahead of maximized profit.

I think this IS them maximizing their profit. I think you're just engaging in wishful thinking: the reality is, I don't think your demographic is the market you believe it to be.

WTF??? Seriously WTF??? I just love how it always comes back to the games you play that determine whether or not you pro or anti gay. What is next you gonna say that the problem is mainly on XBL and would never happen to this degree in a PC game. Although I am impressed by your way of fighting for one demographic while putting down another.

 

[Alex_P]

I'm sorry but... How does personal preference towards whom you're attracted to affect video games? I can't see why it would matter if you were hetrosexual or gay... Or maybe I'm just naive.

Even if you never reveal your sexual orientation, there are people on the various multiplayer services who will call you a "fag" every two minutes.

That's crappy and unpleasant even if you're straight. But it's extra-crappy and extra-unpleasant and personal if you're gay.

(Some people will say that's just because kids these days throw around "gay" and "fag" without any association with homosexuality. But when you look at the story of the woman who posted her orientation on her XBL profile and became the target of persistent harassment because of it, it's clear there's at least a substantial minority of users who, well, actively pursue LGBT folks.)

-- Alex

 

[PizzaDentist]

I think one resolution should be that in Gears 3, Marcus and Dom are so overjoyed at expelling the Locust Horde that they suddenly and passionately make out on a pile of dead bodies.

A 'panel' is going to do nothing to get rid of XBL abuse that people have to put up with, be they gay, straight, old or young. Pointless self-important behaviour.

 

[cobra_ky]

Ya, I agree. There shall now be a new policy for online shooters and other online games. We shall call it the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy. Here are the rules. Shut up about personal opinions and preferences and just play the damned game!

"don't ask, don't tell" has been such a disastrous policy for the american military, i can't imagine why we should want it implemented anywhere else.

It's a joke. If you looked at my previous post on this and the guy I am replying too, you would notice my response for this matter is why the hell are you even talking about your sexuality over a game online? It's stupid and shouldn't be talked about. Hence me saying that it should be the don't ask don't tell policy. Why does the person who you are playing in Halo 3 really need to know what you prefer. It comes across as rude and pushy. That's why no one should be talking about it in the first place and thus make events like these completely unnessecary.

Also, a word of advice next time, check the whole post before using only part of it. You have taken me out of context here and are thus using what I said in a way I did not mean. Don't do it again.

i don't see how you were joking. "don't ask don't tell" seems to be exactly what you're advocating. am i missing something here? if there's a significant difference between DADT and the solution you suggested, please explain it to me.

i cut out the *snipped* quotes and nothing else. everything you typed in that post is quoted in its entirety.



by the way, dictating what people can or cannot talk about can come across as rude and pushy too. it's a matter of perspective.

and for the record, stop stealing our stuff...i want the rainbow, the superman logo and key west back dangit!!

i saw a christian group petitioning to "take back the rainbow" once. i signed it on the condition that they give back the cross.

How is the rule discrimitory? I could see it as discrimination if the rule was "if you are homosexual don't put it in your profile" but this is not the case. The rule is there to protect everyone from everyone else. Would you expect any less of a reaction if say she didn't put in her profile that whe was a lesbian but had a foot fetish. Or she was into the same fetish as the girls from 2 girls one cup? Especially when it is not just adults who will see your profile. Do you want to try to explain to a 5 yr old what a lesbian is? Or what it means to be straight? An xbox profile should not be the inspiration for the birds and the bees talk.

i don't have an xbox so i can't confirm this, but my guess is there's nothing stopping you from using the word "straight" in your profile, or otherwise indicating your heterosexuality. ("My name's Bill and I love my wife Jen!") Microsoft's current policy towards homosexuality is that merely the word "gay" or "lesbian" is offensive, regardless of context.

i'd never let a five year old onto xbox live in the first place. but personally, if i had kids, i wouldn't mind explaining homosexuality to them. if my kids can understand that their mommy and daddy love each other very much, then they can understand that two mommies or two daddies can love each other the same way.

obviously parents who are opposed to homosexuality will have a bigger problem with this, but frankly microsoft has no business deciding how to raise children. the swearing and violence make xbox live a terrible place for kids either way.

Or and this is a big or you could use the system they have in place already to protect you from the idiots. You know the whole mute player and block communication system. Oh thats right MS should be the ones protecting you. God forbid you have to do a bit to protect yourself.

the point is that microsoft is trying too hard already to protect GLBT players and they're doing it in a clumsy, ham-handed way.

maybe i should have made this more clear earlier, but the microsoft policy banning use of the word "gay" was not intended to be anti-homosexual. it was meant to prevent gay-bashing and, in theory, protect gay players. the policy was so poorly thought out, however, that in practice, it actually discriminates against them instead.

 

[bjj hero]

Why does the person who you are playing in Halo 3 really need to know what you prefer. It comes across as rude and pushy. That's why no one should be talking about it in the first place and thus make events like these completely unnessecary.

The difference is I can say "I'll be back in a second, my girlfriend wants me to put the trash out" over the mic with little bother.

There would be plenty of abuse if I said "I'll be back in a second, my boyfriend wants me to put the trash out". Neither comment is intrusive but would be recieved very differently over XBL.

Race should not be an issue in gaming. A lot of ethnic minorities still have to sit through comments like "******" and "Jew". Either you sit quietly through it or you make it known that you are black etc. and then its an issue. If youre gay you have to sit through plenty of gay bashing if you game online. Do you challenge it? At that point you are "outing yourself". Its still not intrusive.

This conference is a positive step, though I doubt we will see any change for years to come.

Namely I have explained that *I* believe gay men are far more interested in pre-sexual humans and more likely to attack little boys and such than say lesbians are likely to engage in sexual assault of pre-sexual girls.

Working in criminal justice I have seen far too many sex offenders and predominantly paedophiles are hetrosexual males. Being gay does not make you more likely to be a paedophile so its not really a good argument to dislike someone.

 

[Alex_P]

Do you want to try to explain to a 5 yr old what a lesbian is?

In five-year-old terms, a "lesbian" is a girl who loves other girls romantically. Not that hard, really. The kid may not entirely be clear on how "romantic" love differs from other kinds of love, but he or she will at least get the gist.

It's a lot easier than explaining the random gibberish profanity. "Daddy, what's a shitcock?"

I don't think five-year-olds should be playing open-contact online multiplayer games, though.

-- Alex

 

[squid5580]

Ya, I agree. There shall now be a new policy for online shooters and other online games. We shall call it the 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy. Here are the rules. Shut up about personal opinions and preferences and just play the damned game!

"don't ask, don't tell" has been such a disastrous policy for the american military, i can't imagine why we should want it implemented anywhere else.

It's a joke. If you looked at my previous post on this and the guy I am replying too, you would notice my response for this matter is why the hell are you even talking about your sexuality over a game online? It's stupid and shouldn't be talked about. Hence me saying that it should be the don't ask don't tell policy. Why does the person who you are playing in Halo 3 really need to know what you prefer. It comes across as rude and pushy. That's why no one should be talking about it in the first place and thus make events like these completely unnessecary.

Also, a word of advice next time, check the whole post before using only part of it. You have taken me out of context here and are thus using what I said in a way I did not mean. Don't do it again.

i don't see how you were joking. "don't ask don't tell" seems to be exactly what you're advocating. am i missing something here? if there's a significant difference between DADT and the solution you suggested, please explain it to me.

i cut out the *snipped* quotes and nothing else. everything you typed in that post is quoted in its entirety.



by the way, dictating what people can or cannot talk about can come across as rude and pushy too. it's a matter of perspective.

and for the record, stop stealing our stuff...i want the rainbow, the superman logo and key west back dangit!!

i saw a christian group petitioning to "take back the rainbow" once. i signed it on the condition that they give back the cross.

How is the rule discrimitory? I could see it as discrimination if the rule was "if you are homosexual don't put it in your profile" but this is not the case. The rule is there to protect everyone from everyone else. Would you expect any less of a reaction if say she didn't put in her profile that whe was a lesbian but had a foot fetish. Or she was into the same fetish as the girls from 2 girls one cup? Especially when it is not just adults who will see your profile. Do you want to try to explain to a 5 yr old what a lesbian is? Or what it means to be straight? An xbox profile should not be the inspiration for the birds and the bees talk.

i don't have an xbox so i can't confirm this, but my guess is there's nothing stopping you from using the word "straight" in your profile, or otherwise indicating your heterosexuality. ("My name's Bill and I love my wife Jen!") Microsoft's current policy towards homosexuality is that merely the word "gay" or "lesbian" is offensive, regardless of context.

i'd never let a five year old onto xbox live in the first place. but personally, if i had kids, i wouldn't mind explaining homosexuality to them. if my kids can understand that their mommy and daddy love each other very much, then they can understand that two mommies or two daddies can love each other the same way.

obviously parents who are opposed to homosexuality will have a bigger problem with this, but frankly microsoft has no business deciding how to raise children. the swearing and violence make xbox live a terrible place for kids either way.

Or and this is a big or you could use the system they have in place already to protect you from the idiots. You know the whole mute player and block communication system. Oh thats right MS should be the ones protecting you. God forbid you have to do a bit to protect yourself.

the point is that microsoft is trying too hard already to protect GLBT players and they're doing it in a clumsy, ham-handed way.

maybe i should have made this more clear earlier, but the microsoft policy banning use of the word "gay" was not intended to be anti-homosexual. it was meant to prevent gay-bashing and, in theory, protect gay players. the policy was so poorly thought out, however, that in practice, it actually discriminates against them instead.

And Sony isn't by censoring the word gay when typed? At least MS is giving us a little credit by giving us our own policing instead of deciding for us what we can and can't talk about. There is nothing stopping anyone from announcing to every player in every match thier sexual preference if that is what matters to you. And if another finds that offensive then they have the option of muting you. And I could be wrong but I doubt MS would have gone the same route they did if the lesbian in question had put Jill loves Jane vs I am a lesbian.

 

[squid5580]

Do you want to try to explain to a 5 yr old what a lesbian is?

In five-year-old terms, a "lesbian" is a girl who loves other girls romantically. Not that hard, really. The kid may not entirely be clear on how "romantic" love differs from other kinds of love, but he or she will at least get the gist.

It's a lot easier than explaining the random gibberish profanity. "Daddy, what's a shitcock?"

I don't think five-year-olds should be playing open-contact online multiplayer games, though.

-- Alex

As a father myself I would have no problems with my daughter playing online when she is old enough to hold the controller. Although she would be doing it without a mic. And I would be reading any messages she might recieve before she has a chance to. Just like I would be monitoring any communications she has while on the PC. Just like any other responsible parent should be doing.

 

[squid5580]

Or and this is a big or you could use the system they have in place already to protect you from the idiots. You know the whole mute player and block communication system. Oh thats right MS should be the ones protecting you. God forbid you have to do a bit to protect yourself.

Somehow I doubt that is your response to the people who fall into "1. She violated the rules and got what she had coming."

God forbid they protect themselves from someone identifying as homosexual. MS should be protecting them from her.

WTF??? Seriously WTF??? I just love how it always comes back to the games you play that determine whether or not you pro or anti gay.

While I don't see what this has to do with anything or where you got all that from, let me just say: you may be into all that politically correct bullshit, but I'm not--I just call it the way it is.

What is next you gonna say that the problem is mainly on XBL and would never happen to this degree in a PC game.

Of course, I dunno. Maybe I'm just too unwilling to believe that a game like Gears, which is played almost exclusively by whooping cockmonglers, could be "arty".

Hehe...cockmonglers...heh.

The funny thing is that I ran into few cockmonglers in playing Gears online. People were kinda nice--nicer than Halo, and even nicer than CoD4. Everyone was *southern* for some reason, but on the whole I didn't have the miserable experience most people tag this game with.

Of course, it was no comparison to _Far Cry: I/P_ where everyone was a Commonwealth type and incredibly polite. That was surreal.

All four games mentioned were played on XBL. I also play Catan on XBL. Usually while listening to The Hold Steady.

Although I am impressed by your way of fighting for one demographic while putting down another.

Um, if one demographic is for calling people 'fag', and the other demographic is against calling people 'fag', fighting for one is necessarily fighting against the other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle

You are not going to win by using the same tactics as the ones you are attempting to fight against. Or am I wrong that you didn't just call everyone who plays Madden a homophobe while saying Sims players are pro gay. Funny because I didn't realize what games you were into decided which side of the fence you are on with this issue. And what about the gamer who plays none of the above? Are they they ones that judge you based on knowing you? Or does everyone get to judge everyone else based on race, sexual preference or what games they play? Hey why not throw in what console they own or play most. Boxers or briefs. Rent or own. Chocolate or vanilla. By your logic people who prefer one over the other must be on either side of the fence.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

*snip*

You are correct that I did read it wrong. I read it (and I meant to bold the part after the comma) that you were saying that most staight people were homophobic but that is on the wane. After years of being demonized by the minority groups or demographic (because any HWM is of course the problem) it is sometimes hard to curb that defensive mechanism.

My apologies.

Honestly, I do think there is some demonization of HWMs, just as there is demonization of gays and feminists and community organizers of various flavors and colors. It flies every direction, not because that's human nature, IMO, but because we've never learned how to talk about all this stuff properly.

You've seen some hot thread topic explode on these forums, lots of people posts, many of them not reading first, elements derailing into spinoff arguments, quoting, misquoting, some people sticking to the point, others bursting into flames, the peppering of "who cares!" comments, etc., you know what I'm talking about right?

And you may have seen people on these threads you agree with but whose way of arguing is not, to put it nicely, doing your side any credit. You may have seen people who have a good point but don't know how to express it or haven't gotten it thought out. You many have seen people who have NO point and just keep making it, or who won't think it out and just keep expressing it over and over. And the thing is, they aren't doing it because they are bad, they aren't doing it because they are stupid, they are doing it because discussion of this sort is a skill you have to learn and they don't teach it in school. (They used to, you know. In Shakespeare's day, the schools taught reading, writing, arithmetic, and rhetoric--the method of making logically correct points.)

You've seen the animosity and the flames build in these threads. And it's not like anyone (well, maybe a few people) went in there with the intent to piss people off and offend them. It just happens. Well, in this massive, metaphorical forum of the United States (if you live elsewhere, then I can't speak to that), there is a very, very, very hot thread with millions of people posting to it, and the title of the thread is, "What does it mean to be equal?"

So this back-and-forth demonization is the flamey, pointless crap that every hot thread generates, and just like we have to do here, we have to recognize it for what it is and stick to the real point of the discussion. Not argument, mind you, discussion. People who want to argue don't want to learn, they want to win. If you are discussing something, you are listening to what the other person says in order to learn something. In American politics, we argue way to much and discuss almost nothing.

As far as your direct experience of being demonized, I have some thoughts about that. I didn't know what the word skid meant, but when Alex_P explained it to me, I recognized the epithet by a different name [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.125124?page=9#2627845]. I don't know anything about your economic standing, but there is a classist stereotype that assumes that, basically, the less money a white person has, the more likely they are to be racist, sexist, and homophobic. This is, of course, completely stupid, but if people perceive you as a "skid", they may very well just assume you are a bigot of some sort. Not just gay people or people of color, but just generally, you may be assumed to be a bigot unless you prove otherwise if you are perceived to be of a certain economic class. Also, the more small-town or rural a person is, the more they are assumed to be racist, sexist, and homophobic. This is what I'm talking about when I say nobody belongs to just one group. Oh, I've had some lovely conversations with other gay people about their use of the phrase, "white trash." *grinds teeth* You know how the arguments with your own family are the worst? Yeah, well, like I said, we spend so much time calling each other on shit like this, it's a miracle we get anything done. But if we don't call each other on it, then the big thread we are all posting to just bursts out into that many more flames.

 

[cobra_ky]

And Sony isn't by censoring the word gay when typed? At least MS is giving us a little credit by giving us our own policing instead of deciding for us what we can and can't talk about. There is nothing stopping anyone from announcing to every player in every match thier sexual preference if that is what matters to you. And if another finds that offensive then they have the option of muting you. And I could be wrong but I doubt MS would have gone the same route they did if the lesbian in question had put Jill loves Jane vs I am a lesbian.

i'm not sure exactly what you're referring to with Sony, but it sounds like they probably are too. i'm just explaining it in terms of microsoft because that's the story that was linked in the main post. i shouldn't have brought up hypothetical situations, but the point i was trying to make is that microsoft allows people to share all sorts of information about themselves, but sexual orientation is treated differently. it's an issue specific to the gay community, and therefore should have been at the forefront of this discussion. the prevalence of obscene language in voice chat, whether its racist, homophobic, or just plain swearing, is a much more general and much more difficult problem to solve.