EA Hosting Panel on Homophobia in Gaming

[yourbeliefs]

It's not as much homophobia as its just an abundance of major ASSHOLES playing games online. The general anonymity that exists with online gaming has brought with it a bunch of jerk-offs who feel that they can say whatever they want without fear of "true" retribution. Back in the days when arcade gaming was the only true multiplayer method out there, you wouldn't hear the same stuff being said there as you hear online (or at least not as often,) because if you yell out the N or Fa* word and that person you're referring to is standing right next to you, they're probably going to take action that is more severe than simply submitting an online "report." If all online players were forced to show what they looked like and some sort of relevant location information, you'd see the asshole level drop faster than GM's stock level.

 

[annoyinglizardvoice]

Hate to say this but there is nothing about the online space that makes people homophobic fascist, it's just in online games anyone can join from the most fucked up backgrounds. In far too many online games there is inadequate moderation, on PC there is almost always the admin on every server ready with the ban-hammer. But on consoles, anyone can plug in a mic and spew insults for entirely sadistic reasons they only do it because they know they will cause harm, usually they go without any punishment. Try that in real life, you'll get banned from any private function (pub/cinema/arcde/etc) and on the streets you'll get excluded from the rest of the world and be put in jail.

For the time being the best solution is simply - and I have said this a dozen times before - just "mute player". I don't know how it is for gays but I personally don't like these socially retarded pre-teens scream "GGGGAAAAAYYYY" at me just because I am killing them so often. No one is safe from these immature dickweeds and they will just say what every they think will cause most offense... because their playing skills suck so much they have to compensate.

As to actually getting these social retards to stop with their prejudice, good luck. Though one thing a strict etiquette can do is not popularise gay-bashing amongst other users and one way to achieve this is to vote-mute an abusive user, so no one even has to have the inconvenience of individually muting him, the abuser then knows that their conduct is not accepted. Peer pressure is a powerful force, getting voted off is an effective social punishment.

As to why gay-bashing is used as such a common insult even against obviously straight people, well I blame the gay community for this one. The gay community think they will get their way by differentiating themselves and being "visible" so they can't be "ignored" when all it does is alienate people to homosexuality. I mean gay pride parades do nothing but enforce stereotypes and how is anyone going to come out of the closet when his sexuality is represented by farcical pantomime.

Gays need to be re-branded. Confident, responsible and empowered, not flamboyant and effeminate. Imagine all the horrible racist stereotypes of African Americans and put on a float as part of a "black pride parade". Counter-productive, no? Where are the openly gay sportmen? Openly gay action protagonists like Omar of the unappreciated 'The Wire'?

Take the UK, my home town. There is no gay issue here. Why? Because openly gay people have made them self popular with the majority of the Heterosexual population by being great entertainers, comedians and TV presenters. Has there EVER been an openly gay TV presenter for say a TV game show for the mass American audience? Yet Americans like Perez Hilton think they can just whine, ***** and moan till they get their way. Doesn't work like that. If they keep up with this "them and us" attitude then California's Proposition 8 will not be the last anti-gay legislation. They are only 4-7% of the population, they NEED to be popular as you can't just vote HARDER, American gays MUST endear themselves to average straight people, not as a "poor me" pity-case but to defuse the paranoia over what many people see as a perverted lifestyle choice.

A city has nothing to be proud of about having a "gay district" as in my mind it is the moral equivalence of Jewish or Black Ghetto. America needs integration, not segregation.

I usually don't get uppity with America (kick ass country by the way) but on the gay issue you are completely wrong. Even the liberals among you seem to treat gays as a different species. Maybe it is because you have so much of that uncompromising "macho pride" which never really worked for us and in the UK there is no perception that gays are a threat to average straight people's way of life so there is no moral reason to tolerate abuse that is clearly targeted at them.

Some interesting points there. I strongly agree with the majority of what you are saying (never thought of America as being particularly kick-ass though ).
I feel that this whole anti-homophobia thing will probably result in more harm than benefit despite its good intentions solely because it encourages the us-vs-them mentality that you mention.
As long as antisocial morons with no wit or vocabulary are able to speak, anti-gay insults will be commonplace. The trick is getting them to shut up.

 

[JaredXE]

I really don't think educating people about abuse and defamation is catering to a select group. I can't COUNT how many times I see people calling other people "fag" online. I think it's an effort to acknowledge that gay and lesbian people don't deserve to be called names by moronic teens that don't actually have to face who they're insulting.

They get called cigarettes?


I kid, but really EVERYONE, gay or straight, gets called gay or fag online. It's just words. Yes, the mentality behind those words is troublesome, but EA holding a conference is NOT going to fix that. I mean, whatever happened to "Sticks and Stones may break my bones but Names will never hurt me"? Is it now that Names and Words hurt your inner child forever? Grow up! I am a poor, straight white male in his mid-twenties, and I have been called fag, gay, jew,queer, honky (yes, they still use that word), white bread, cracker and a host of other assorted names......so the fuck what. I'm a minority too, but that doesn't mean I should go running to an advocacy group and whine to them....wait, there ARE NO advocacy groups for young white males.....

If you don't like what people are saying, THEN DON'T LISTEN!

 

[squid5580]

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>>>----Therumancer--->

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Again the point of this whole thing has been missed. It isn't about making games for homosexuals or about having homosexuals in games. The point of this conference is to make the XBL a safe place for homosexuals to say "I am a homosexual" without backlash from the XBL community. Just like if I were to say I am a democrat or I am pro choice (just examples we don't have democrats in Canada) that there are people who would attack me for saying that. If this panel was about making games for homosexuals then that defeats the whole "we are equal" and developers are in for a very rough time since they will then have to make pro (insert race/religion and polical view here) for the mainstream gaming community.

And the part that you didn't understand was just an observation about how NAMBLA rose up while the education about thier practices went down.

 

[squid5580]

I don't know how many times I can say this. You can't expect MS to moderate the voice chat. There is millions of people using it over 100 of games. What you expect them to do would cost billions at the very least. That is why they offered up the whole mute player option and allowed us to moderate ourselves. How were they to know most gamers would be to stunned to use such an easy option and instead blame them for something they have no control over? Or is it all the people bitching about it are to immature for such power? The bottom line on XBL is if you don't like it you don't have to listen to it. All the while listening to the people you do want to listen to. If you can come up with a better option to still allow voice chat I for one would love to hear it. Although I would suggest you send your idea to a patent office then to MS first.

i'm not sure how many times i have to explain this. GAME COMPANIES CAN NOT AND SHOULD NOT CENSOR VOICE CHAT. even if it was technologically feasible, which it absolutely isn't, it's still a terrible idea, for all the reasons you're describing.

<a href=http://kotaku.com/5311939/guest-oped-the-impact-of-homophobia-in-virtual-communities>the director of digital media for GLAAD wrote on an op-ed over on Kotaku about this meeting, and he described in detail the problem with the current policies:

While most companies do have some sort of policy in place that prohibits threats, advocating violence or death, and hate speech, there are major concerns with the effectiveness of those policies. Those concerns including the policies themselves, which in some cases ban self-identifying your orientation or using words like "gay" or "lesbian" altogether. They also include the mechanisms in place to report violations of the policies, many which don't allow you to submit evidence (i.e. recordings of in game audio/video). Then there is the lack of transparency once a user has been reported, leaving the harassed often feeling as if nothing has been done.

...

For those who say this is bigger than just being about homophobia - that there are also issues like racism and sexism to be addressed - you are right. But keep in mind; while the work being done here is focused around fighting homophobia its implications will affect many other groups. If we work to help implement better reporting mechanisms, it helps everyone. If we work to provide better policies and safe spaces for LGBT people, those policies and spaces can be replicated for other groups as well.

notice that there's absolutely no mention of increasing censorship. in fact he's advocating the exact opposite.

Now for the whole sexual preference in your profile. If you can give me just one benefit to it that would benefit the entire community (not your own self worth or the fact that you think it is an important part of who you are) I have an open enough mind I would gladly listen. One that immediately comes to mind is "well then homosexuals could have thier own special little community. Unfortunately that destroys the whole we are equal. Remembering that the division such an issue causes in todays world is it really worth it? Sure in a perfect world one could openly say I'm here, I'm queer and that is that both in the real world and online without fear of consequence. I don't see the problem of not allowing people to use swear words or sexual orientation in thier profile as a way to try and maintain peace within the community so everyone can try and have a pleasant experience online. And not just reserve it to only sexual orientation but also politics and religion. There are probably some other hot topic controversial issues that people feel really passionate about that I can't think of off hand. That is afterall the goal. The point of the profile is not to be used as your personal soapbox. Come here for that (do I get a cookie for pluggin the Escapist?? lol).

if they want to ban politics, religion and and anything else that might be controversial, they're welcome to try but that's probably a stupid idea. but why let people mention race, or gender, or anything else in their profile that might be divisive? why is sexual orientation treated differently than any other social group that might possibly be discriminated against?

Why is that a "stupid idea"? Why should your profile be used as your own little soapbox? It all boils down to time and place. There is a time and a place to have a political debate. XBL is niether when one is trying to force it which is exactly what you are doing by putting it in your profile. Ok force isn't the right word. Baiting is the right word. By putting "I am a lesbian" in your profile you are baiting all the anti-gay people who read your profile into a fight. Which is not beneficial for the community as a whole. That is why MS states clearly in thier code and conduct not to do it. Not because they are anti anything but because they know that the world we live in isn't perfect. And that the whole point of XBL is for people to come and enjoy themselves. Not to have an issue that people feel passionate about thrust on them. It seems simple enough to me. Keep an air of neutrality and it should please most.

As for the whole race or gender issue. If there was a way to hide those I am sure that MS would have. The moment you speak it isn't hard to figure out what gender you are (well either you are a woman or a 12 yr old boy who hasn't reached puberty). Again in the perfect world it wouldn't be an issue either way. So they might as well let you put it in your profile if you choose to since people will figure it out anyways. It is a bit harder to figure out if you are gay or a republican or pro life by your voice. Or by video chat.

 

[bjj hero]

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Not being America I had to look up NAMBLA, I had no idea there was a paedophile campaign group. Only in America.

You mention predatory paedophiles hanging around arcades. Firstly there is no saying they are gay. Ive worked with plenty of men who are adamant that they are straight, have wives/girlfriends etc. and still abused boys. Also there are plenty of hetrosexual abusers who manipulate young girls then abuse them. Dance classes, care homes etc, there are plenty of places. This misses the fact that most abused children are abused by a family member or a friend of the family. Fortunately predatory paedophiles a rare, particularly the ones that "snatch" children.

I feel you are in a similar position to me. With my job I see the worst of society and it can jade your view of people. Sometimes you need to step back and say "this isn't representative of everyone in society". Its not always easy to do. I won't be saying exactly what I do as I would like to carry on expressing my views freely and not tow the work line.

Having wandered off point I never said homosexuals are whiter than white. It is a diverse group made up of individuals. Some break the law, others don't. To say you dont like gays because some of them abuse children is like saying I hate straight people because some of them abuse children. Both are poor arguments. Having worked with lots of abusers, including Gay child abusers but no where near 1 in 20, which is a conservative estimate on the percentage of the population that are gay. Maybe the stats are different in America but my experience and the studies Ive read don't back your hypothesis.

Unfortunately some people abuse children and sexuality doesn't come into it. I'm sorry to hear about your past abuse. You're entitled to your opinion, as I'm entitled to disagree. Just don't discount my views as liberal brainwashing etc. I never accused you of being vaccuous. I simply disagreed.

 

[Jimmyjames]

Is it now that Names and Words hurt your inner child forever? Grow up! I am a poor, straight white male in his mid-twenties, and I have been called fag, gay, jew,queer, honky (yes, they still use that word), white bread, cracker and a host of other assorted names......so the fuck what. I'm a minority too, but that doesn't mean I should go running to an advocacy group and whine to them....wait, there ARE NO advocacy groups for young white males.....

If you don't like what people are saying, THEN DON'T LISTEN!

I'm not saying that a person should whine and cry anytime they are called a name. I'm proposing that people change their thinking a little bit and realize that they are doing no good in the world by hurling anonymous insults. God forbid anyone try to change the way people think or behave. Guess status quo is good enough for some people, but I'd like to think society can grow and improve.

I don't see assholes on the internet as any sort of improvement.

 

[bug_chaser]

i'm not hateful nor bigoted. and i agree, you guys deserve the same rights as everyone else, but it gets taken too far with the gay pride parades and stores. there is a difference of wanting equal rights and wanting everyone to cater to your sexuality.

and for the record, stop stealing our stuff...i want the rainbow, the superman logo and key west back dangit!!

Another example-I believe gays should be treated exactly the same as everyone else, and you assume that a) I am gay and b) I want special rights for gays. The best part is you still maintain that nobody really cares about sexual orientation anymore, despite the fact that you hear "fag" as the standard insult all over ol games.

As for the parades, an argument can certainly be made that they are not the most effective form of advocacy. What cannot be argued is whether or not more advocacy is necessary. Gays may have "their own" bookstores and they may have stolen Key West from you but they still cannot marry.

 

[cobra_ky]

Why is that a "stupid idea"? Why should your profile be used as your own little soapbox?

well generally, it's a stupid idea because censorship isn't most people's idea of fun. my guess is people would leave your service in droves if you took that hard a line on banning controversial subjects.

It all boils down to time and place. There is a time and a place to have a political debate. XBL is niether when one is trying to force it which is exactly what you are doing by putting it in your profile. Ok force isn't the right word. Baiting is the right word. By putting "I am a lesbian" in your profile you are baiting all the anti-gay people who read your profile into a fight. Which is not beneficial for the community as a whole.

sorry, but this is just crap. being gay isn't a political position, and GLBT people who want their orientation in their profiles aren't doing it just to be trolls. if you're just so furious that gay people exist that you can't even look at the word without launching into a polemical tirade, then you're the one with the problem and you're the one disrupting the community. why do people need to be protected from the very idea of homosexuality?

and who goes around reading random people's XBL profiles, anyway?

That is why MS states clearly in thier code and conduct not to do it. Not because they are anti anything but because they know that the world we live in isn't perfect. And that the whole point of XBL is for people to come and enjoy themselves. Not to have an issue that people feel passionate about thrust on them. It seems simple enough to me. Keep an air of neutrality and it should please most.

and like i said earlier, microsoft's stance is far from neutral. regardless of their good intentions, that fact is a lot of GLBT players can't enjoy themselves, because they're having homophobia thrust upon them by microsoft's ban on the words.

As for the whole race or gender issue. If there was a way to hide those I am sure that MS would have. The moment you speak it isn't hard to figure out what gender you are (well either you are a woman or a 12 yr old boy who hasn't reached puberty). Again in the perfect world it wouldn't be an issue either way. So they might as well let you put it in your profile if you choose to since people will figure it out anyways. It is a bit harder to figure out if you are gay or a republican or pro life by your voice. Or by video chat.

you can very rarely determine race from a voice. and regardless of how hard it is to figure out, it's still possible.

 

[Alex_P]

Baiting is the right word. By putting "I am a lesbian" in your profile you are baiting all the anti-gay people who read your profile into a fight. Which is not beneficial for the community as a whole. That is why MS states clearly in thier code and conduct not to do it. Not because they are anti anything but because they know that the world we live in isn't perfect. And that the whole point of XBL is for people to come and enjoy themselves. Not to have an issue that people feel passionate about thrust on them. It seems simple enough to me. Keep an air of neutrality and it should please most.

Generally, people go to the movies to have fun and relax.

When a mixed-race couple goes to the movies, are they "baiting" all the racists in town?

Should the proprietor of the movie theater tell them they can't hold hands because it'll upset all the racists who are just there to "enjoy themselves"?

Does the fact that there's only one mixed-race couple in a town of twenty racists mean that it's better screw them over in order to appease the racists?

-- Alex

 

[ckam]

EA is doing something GENUINELY GOOD???

I think hell just froze over.

[small]..........I saw a few pigs flying too..........[/small]

And yet MJ is still dead.

 

[squid5580]

Baiting is the right word. By putting "I am a lesbian" in your profile you are baiting all the anti-gay people who read your profile into a fight. Which is not beneficial for the community as a whole. That is why MS states clearly in thier code and conduct not to do it. Not because they are anti anything but because they know that the world we live in isn't perfect. And that the whole point of XBL is for people to come and enjoy themselves. Not to have an issue that people feel passionate about thrust on them. It seems simple enough to me. Keep an air of neutrality and it should please most.

Generally, people go to the movies to have fun and relax.

When a mixed-race couple goes to the movies, are they "baiting" all the racists in town?

Should the proprietor of the movie theater tell them they can't hold hands because it'll upset all the racists who are just there to "enjoy themselves"?

Does the fact that there's only one mixed-race couple in a town of twenty racists mean that it's better screw them over in order to appease the racists?

-- Alex

XBL is a virtual world not a real one. The real world is not controlled by a company to make money. If the owner of the theatre decided that having the mixed race couple in his or her theatre decided that they were a problem and he or she would lose alot of money having them there he or she should have the right to ask them to leave, sit in separate seats ect ect. And you know that there would be protesting and accusations of bigotry and yada yada yada even though he or she is just trying to protect thier investment. Doesn't mean he or she is in any way racist. That is just one of the tougher decisions an owner has to make for the greater good of thier wallet. I am also sure if you asked different interracial couples some would say they would be much happier being turned away at the door or sitting apart than facing abuse for the entire length of the movie. No matter how hurt thier feelings might be.

In a perfect world this wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately the world is far from perfect and people/companies are trying to do the best they can with what they got. Oh right they should be able to abolish 100's and 1000's of years of this kinda crap at the snap of thier fingers.

And what I love the most about this thread everyone likes to say well it just shouldn't happen while no one has put forth a viable solution that doesn't involve banning outright one group or another. Seems to me that MS has a problem that can't be easily solved without offending someone (other than the tools already provided for all XBL users that only a few of us actually know about like the block communication and mute player option). It also seems to me since no one can use these keeping it out of your profile is the least offensive option at this point.

 

[squid5580]

And what I love the most about this thread everyone likes to say well it just shouldn't happen while no one has put forth a viable solution that doesn't involve banning outright one group or another.

Yeah, no one really is. Someone should like, try and find a viable solution by maybe hosting a panel to discuss the issue of homophobia in gaming and the problems surrounding it, one that brings together gaming industry insiders and LGBT gamers in a conversation about combating homophobia online; I imagine they would be addressing such issues as how to provide safe spaces for LGBT people online, how to ensure the best policies are in place to prevent virtual attacks against LGBT people and how to educate the users of online communities about the effects of homophobia. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/93197-EA-Hosting-Panel-on-Homophobia-in-Gaming]

So they are discussing it just as we are. Still haven't seen a single viable solution come out of it after 12 pages of discussion. Unless going District 9 is viable. Since that truly is the only other option than the tools and rules they already have in place that no one likes because everyone must know your sexual preference no matter where you are or what you are doing. "Can I have a coffe double double and I am gay" (big difference than walking into the coffee shop holding your partner's hand).

Oh there is one more. You can ban someone whenever they are accused of using a homophobic remark. Wouldn't that be grand. You kick someone's ass in a match and wake up in the morning banned because they reported you of being anti-gay. I guess since you all believe the world is freakin perfect no one would ever abuse the system like that though.

 

[squid5580]

So they are discussing it just as we are.

Actually, I don't see us discussing it much at all.

Oh there is one more. You can ban someone whenever they are accused of using a homophobic remark. Wouldn't that be grand. You kick someone's ass in a match and wake up in the morning banned because they reported you of being anti-gay. I guess since you all believe the world is freakin perfect no one would ever abuse the system like that though.

Why--do homophobic remarks leave behind less evidence than racist ones?

I dunno guess we'll have to wait for MS to have a panel about racism on XBL to find that one out won't we?

 

[cobra_ky]

XBL is a virtual world not a real one. The real world is not controlled by a company to make money. If the owner of the theatre decided that having the mixed race couple in his or her theatre decided that they were a problem and he or she would lose alot of money having them there he or she should have the right to ask them to leave, sit in separate seats ect ect. And you know that there would be protesting and accusations of bigotry and yada yada yada even though he or she is just trying to protect thier investment. Doesn't mean he or she is in any way racist. That is just one of the tougher decisions an owner has to make for the greater good of thier wallet.

there's a reason the vast majority of theater owners don't do this. the protests and accusations of bigotry would cost them much, much more than serving interracial couples ever could. for that matter, how would allowing interracial couples cost them any business at all?

I am also sure if you asked different interracial couples some would say they would be much happier being turned away at the door or sitting apart than facing abuse for the entire length of the movie. No matter how hurt thier feelings might be.

wrong. none would. if they were abused in a theater they may move their seats or choose to leave of their own volition, but it's their decision and the theater owner shouldn't have any business making the decision for them.

And what I love the most about this thread everyone likes to say well it just shouldn't happen while no one has put forth a viable solution that doesn't involve banning outright one group or another. Seems to me that MS has a problem that can't be easily solved without offending someone (other than the tools already provided for all XBL users that only a few of us actually know about like the block communication and mute player option).

i posted <a href=http://kotaku.com/5311939/guest-oped-the-impact-of-homophobia-in-virtual-communities>this once already, but it probably got lost in all the walls and walls of text. here's the relevant portion again:

While most companies do have some sort of policy in place that prohibits threats, advocating violence or death, and hate speech, there are major concerns with the effectiveness of those policies. Those concerns including the policies themselves, which in some cases ban self-identifying your orientation or using words like "gay" or "lesbian" altogether. They also include the mechanisms in place to report violations of the policies, many which don't allow you to submit evidence (i.e. recordings of in game audio/video). Then there is the lack of transparency once a user has been reported, leaving the harassed often feeling as if nothing has been done.

in short, remove the ban on sexual orientation, while creating a stronger reporting system with feedback to the reporting party. since you brought up that few people know how to use the existing tools, better educating users on those functions should be part of the solution too.