EFF Calls Sony's Lawsuit Against PS3 Hackers "Dangerous"

[Tipsythegza]

You bought it, you should be able to open it, smash it with a sledge hammer or whatever you like.

 

[geekcj]

THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS IN THIS WORLD THAN MONEY. Bottom line is that Sonys' bottom line keeps sinking and this isn't going to help them money wise, but it does help with showing them where their mistakes were and how they could improve. Being a Corporation they have lawyers than can bankrupt the common man in court costs. I don't have an attorney but i use that same fear tactic to get my way with businesses, Sony is scared so the used the "my lawyer will have a field day with this," tactic. Its a natural response. As far as I've seen pirates and hackers will ALWAYS find a way, anyone remember having to use bootcamp on their pos mac? Both the Wii and the 360 have been hacked and you don't see Microsoft or Nintendo throwing a temper tantrum. I promise you that if it can be hacked then someone somewhere will hack it or mod it to make it theirs' and not the corporations'.

 

[Haelium]

Piracies bad Mmmkay. Even things that aren't piracy but could theoretically be used for piracy... well they're bad too mmmkay.

What Hotz does is perfectly legal. He bought the machine. He can do what he likes with it.

This will just turn out like the jailbreaking iphones case. Hackers win. Because they aren't doing anything wrong.

If not I want off this planet.

Actually that isn't correct.

When you buy a PS3, you are NOT buying the console. You do not own it, sony does. You buy the permission to use it. And even if that isn't the case, it really should be to give Sony more control over the product and it will help quash piracy.

Yes, you are buying the console, I exchanged money for an object. I never signed anything that claimed that I did not own it, yet it was put into my possession.

How do I not own the console exactly?

 

[icame]

Screw off EFF. I like my developers having money.

You just don't get it do you?

Oh do tell

It wasn't about piracy. It was about the act of jailbreaking the PS3. Downloading games is still illegal.

For future reference, I don't like jailbreaking either for what it opens the doors to do.

We could apply that logic of "It allows people to do other stuff" to many other areas. For example: Should we ban people from modifying cars purely because they could plant a bomb in the car and use it for a suicide bomb?
Should we ban people from modifying computers because they could be used for illegal stuff?
Should we ban the use of proxies because people could use them to download child pornography and/or copyrighted material?
Should we ban the use of game mods because they could be used to train people to commit massacres?

The list goes on, most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player.

1. Yes.
2. No, computers are much different.
3. Yes.
4. No, that's just a stretch.

Homebrew and jailbroke PS3s are more often used for piracy than not. Due to this fact, it is perfectly reasonable for Sony to rule against jailbreaking PS3s.

So people shouldn't be allowed modify cars? Does that include mechanics? And so we should monitor what people do on the internet purely because they might be downloading stuff that they shouldn't?

Screw off EFF. I like my developers having money.

You just don't get it do you?

Oh do tell

It wasn't about piracy. It was about the act of jailbreaking the PS3. Downloading games is still illegal.

the list goes on, most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player.

Thats why MW2 is overrun with hackers right?

MW2 wouldn't be overrun with hackers if they just IP banned them.

Thats not the point. You were saying "most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player."

I was disproving that point.

 

[zehydra]

Piracies bad Mmmkay. Even things that aren't piracy but could theoretically be used for piracy... well they're bad too mmmkay.

What Hotz does is perfectly legal. He bought the machine. He can do what he likes with it.

This will just turn out like the jailbreaking iphones case. Hackers win. Because they aren't doing anything wrong.

If not I want off this planet.

Actually that isn't correct.

When you buy a PS3, you are NOT buying the console.

Sounds to me like a contradictory statement.

 

[Irridium]

Hey Sony, remember why this is all happening?

Its because you removed the Other OS option. Thats the main reason behind all this.
Now your paying for your own stupid-ass decision.

 

[Haelium]

Screw off EFF. I like my developers having money.

You just don't get it do you?

Oh do tell

It wasn't about piracy. It was about the act of jailbreaking the PS3. Downloading games is still illegal.

For future reference, I don't like jailbreaking either for what it opens the doors to do.

We could apply that logic of "It allows people to do other stuff" to many other areas. For example: Should we ban people from modifying cars purely because they could plant a bomb in the car and use it for a suicide bomb?
Should we ban people from modifying computers because they could be used for illegal stuff?
Should we ban the use of proxies because people could use them to download child pornography and/or copyrighted material?
Should we ban the use of game mods because they could be used to train people to commit massacres?

The list goes on, most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player.

1. Yes.
2. No, computers are much different.
3. Yes.
4. No, that's just a stretch.

Homebrew and jailbroke PS3s are more often used for piracy than not. Due to this fact, it is perfectly reasonable for Sony to rule against jailbreaking PS3s.

So people shouldn't be allowed modify cars? Does that include mechanics? And so we should monitor what people do on the internet purely because they might be downloading stuff that they shouldn't?

Screw off EFF. I like my developers having money.

You just don't get it do you?

Oh do tell

It wasn't about piracy. It was about the act of jailbreaking the PS3. Downloading games is still illegal.

the list goes on, most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player.

Thats why MW2 is overrun with hackers right?

MW2 wouldn't be overrun with hackers if they just IP banned them.

Thats not the point. You were saying "most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player."

I was disproving that point.

Some hackers screw with multiplayer so therefore most hackers will? Am I missing a step here?

 

[Atmos Duality]

That PS3 is theirs though. In most Western, countries, buying a piece of electronic entertainment equipment does not mean you "own" that equipment; it means that you own the privilege to use that equipment. You can do pretty much what you want with it, but if the maker/designer catches you not being above-board with it, they have the reserved right to stop you or take it away.

Thats different from a "PC" or computer, in that no one faction truly "owns" that idea. But Sony wholly owns the idea and product of the Playstation, making it their toy, not yours.

There are some double standards at work here.
Sony "owns" your PS3, but I "own" my computer.

What part of my computer made that special again? I have an ASUS, so does that mean that they can just arbitrarily take my rights away? Why not? They made the hardware, so why don't they try to tell me what I can or cannot run on their machine?

Or the Operating system?
What about Microsoft, who licenses their operating system to me? Do they own the data on my computer because it happens to interact with something they produced? I won't contest that they own Windows and the exclusive right to reproduce it, but anything that happens to run on it or modify it is legally out of their reach. (Short of programs that launch missiles, but that's a Federal Mandate, and well out of the jurisdiction of any corporation's EULA)

That's the kind of baffling logic we're dealing with here.

Lets not beat around the bush: A PC and a PS3 are identical for the purposes of being classified as personal electronics. They are pieces of hardware that use electronic circuitry and logic to run programs. What they are specialized for beyond that is utterly irrelevant.
Sony's hardware is no more legally proprietary than my motherboard, processor, etc and it DOES NOT grant them extra rights just because they TRIED to turn their product into a service.

Bottom line: When you buy that PS3, you own that specific unit. You do not own the patents to reproduce it, nor does it enable you to violate any other law with it (like copyright laws), but you can modify it to your heart's desire (and at your own risk).

On the topic of "Jailbreak = Piracy":

Sony's reasoning is that this "master hack" will only lead to piracy, and that anyone using it will only use it for piracy. While it's safe to assume at least some users will use it for piracy, you cannot assume everyone will (the US Air Force recently sued Sony over this very topic; they use PS3s as more-affordable number crunching). Sony is working on the "Guilty unless proven innocent." train of thought, and quite frankly, that shit just doesn't work today. At best, it's the opposite of what the United States court system uses.

Therefore: Modifying a PS3 does not automatically imply intent for piracy, no matter how you slice it.
That would be like saying every gun owner is a future murderer.

 

[thepyrethatburns]

As a sidenote,

We could apply that logic of "It allows people to do other stuff" to many other areas. For example: Should we ban people from modifying cars purely because they could plant a bomb in the car and use it for a suicide bomb?

The example is inaccurate because you can modify your cars all you want. You just may not be able to use public roads if you modify them too far. It is illegal (in the U.S. anyway) to drive a Demolition Derby car or a Monster Truck on public roads. When Sony removed Other OS, it was pointed out numerous times that you can still use the PS3. You just won't be able to use the network. You could also argue that you also couldn't play newer games as a lot of them have security updates but that's the risk you take when modifying things for Homebrew.

And, since we're on the subject of cars and suicide bombs, if someone did modify a car to be a suicide bomb then drove it into Times Square and let it go off, would you consider a defense of "I was just doing security research on the car" to be a valid defense?

That's to do with them no longer fitting in with the safety regulations. If it's a public safety issue then I think logic is on their side. You'd probably have a hard case arguing that a hacked PS3 is a public safety hazard.

As for your last analogy. Again. There is a massive difference between someone suicide bombing and someone hacking a machine.

True but, if you read the whole thing, I wasn't the one who brought up cars and suicide bombs as an analogy in the first place.

Also, you're missing the point. Public roads and the PSN have their own "terms of use". You can modify your car or your PS3 all you like but that doesn't mean that you have a god-given right to use either network if you modify your car/PS3 so that it doesn't fall under terms of use for their respective networks.

 

[icame]

Screw off EFF. I like my developers having money.

You just don't get it do you?

Oh do tell

It wasn't about piracy. It was about the act of jailbreaking the PS3. Downloading games is still illegal.

For future reference, I don't like jailbreaking either for what it opens the doors to do.

We could apply that logic of "It allows people to do other stuff" to many other areas. For example: Should we ban people from modifying cars purely because they could plant a bomb in the car and use it for a suicide bomb?
Should we ban people from modifying computers because they could be used for illegal stuff?
Should we ban the use of proxies because people could use them to download child pornography and/or copyrighted material?
Should we ban the use of game mods because they could be used to train people to commit massacres?

The list goes on, most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player.

1. Yes.
2. No, computers are much different.
3. Yes.
4. No, that's just a stretch.

Homebrew and jailbroke PS3s are more often used for piracy than not. Due to this fact, it is perfectly reasonable for Sony to rule against jailbreaking PS3s.

So people shouldn't be allowed modify cars? Does that include mechanics? And so we should monitor what people do on the internet purely because they might be downloading stuff that they shouldn't?

Screw off EFF. I like my developers having money.

You just don't get it do you?

Oh do tell

It wasn't about piracy. It was about the act of jailbreaking the PS3. Downloading games is still illegal.

the list goes on, most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player.

Thats why MW2 is overrun with hackers right?

MW2 wouldn't be overrun with hackers if they just IP banned them.

Thats not the point. You were saying "most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player."

I was disproving that point.

Some hackers screw with multiplayer so therefore most hackers will? Am I missing a step here?

You know what the word OVERRUN means right? An Activision employee said (Out of context mind you) that they might shut down the PS3 servers because its getting so bad. That means there's a hell of a lot of them. That means it probobly a huge chunk of the hackers that are doing it.

 

[Braedan]

So people shouldn't be allowed modify cars? Does that include mechanics? And so we should monitor what people do on the internet purely because they might be downloading stuff that they shouldn't?

Yes. But that brings up a really good idea, all mechanics must be certified to work on cars. And modification without certification is illegal.

Yes.

Piracy is a huge problem. And while we're at it, we can do other things with the monitoring. Like stopping crimes before they happen. That sort of thing.

REAAAAAALLLLY. So if I want to replace the brakes on my car, and install a new air intake to improve gas mileage without spending $400 I should be thrown in jail? Clearly you are a broken human being.

 

[Haelium]

snip

Again, huge number of hackers online somehow = most hackers? Most people in prison are weirdos, but that doesn't mean that most weirdos are in prison. Do you get me?

 

[icame]

snip

Again, huge number of hackers online somehow = most hackers? Most people in prison are weirdos, but that doesn't mean that most weirdos are in prison. Do you get me?

Prison is a horrible comparison. It is an extremely isolated part of society. Multiplayer games are a huge part of gaming now. With games like wow and cod, multiplayer is arguably bigger then single player nowadays for most gamers.

 

[Pendragon9]

I don't get the fanboyish hatred of Sony here. They're just protecting their property.

It isn't the fact that the Ps3 has been hacked. This essentially allows people to play games for free without Sony being able to do anything about it.

From a company perspective, that could be devastating. Could you guys kindly stop being biased for a second and think of the ramifications?

Oh wait, I guess that's too much to ask.

Just look at some of the online games for the PS3. Some are shutting down due to the hackers that are starting to become rampant due to this.

 

[Haelium]

snip

Again, huge number of hackers online somehow = most hackers? Most people in prison are weirdos, but that doesn't mean that most weirdos are in prison. Do you get me?

Prison is a horrible comparison. It is an extremely isolated part of society. Multiplayer games are a huge part of gaming now. With games like wow and cod, multiplayer is arguably bigger then single player nowadays for most gamers.

The comparison doesn't matter, I can apply it to other areas.
Most soldiers are male, but that does not mean that most males are soldiers.
Most politicians wear suits, but that does not mean that most people who wear suits are politicians.

I can go on, but it doesn't matter. I'm saying that your logic is flawed.

 

[Deshin]

*deep breath*

Would people stop with pulling the big book of metaphors out of their backsides and stop dancing around the issue. Sod cars and prisons and weirdos, what we have here is an electronic console and it has its own rules and situations.

When you buy the console it is yours, legally, Sony can't come round to your house and decide to take it back. No matter how many EULA amendments they make will make it true and not a damn single court in the civilised world would uphold a Sony rep coming to comandeer your personal possessions. Sony could put in the EULA that every time you turn the console on you have to punch yourself in the groin but that doesn't make it legally binding. Now we've gotten that out of the way let's move onto the proper stuff.

The PS3 is a console, a piece of electrical hardware. As an electronics item the owner (ie, you, not Sony) can do what you want with it. You can open it, take a hammer to it, take a soldering iron to it, whatever you want. (The only downside is you'd void the warranty) If you make your electronic device capable of doing something it's not supposed to, it's STILL OK. Back in olden days you had to modchip consoles to get em to pirate, that was perfectly legal. The actual piracy bit on the other hand is the not so legal part and that's where the trouble comes in. But *modifying* your electronic hardware to do something illegal is perfectly legal as long as you don't do the illegal part.

Sony are just angry about losing their prized "most secure console" title and having the PS3 end up with the security functions of a toaster. As such they're releasing the lawyers in any which way direction they think will save face the most. Honestly though they did have it coming, a BIG selling point of the PS3 over the competition was OpenOS and that influenced a lot of sales. Now for Sony to realise they're not the sleepy sheepdog of the console generation anymore and have a sizable number of units sold and can turn around and whip out some of the PS3 goodies is just bad business and I hope they feel the unforgiving wrath of the consumer.

We are the consumers, Sony serves us, not the other way around.

 

[gibboss28]

You know what the word OVERRUN means right? An Activision employee said (Out of context mind you) that they might shut down the PS3 servers because its getting so bad. That means there's a hell of a lot of them. That means it probobly a huge chunk of the hackers that are doing it.

Source please.

Piracies bad Mmmkay. Even things that aren't piracy but could theoretically be used for piracy... well they're bad too mmmkay.

What Hotz does is perfectly legal. He bought the machine. He can do what he likes with it.

This will just turn out like the jailbreaking iphones case. Hackers win. Because they aren't doing anything wrong.

If not I want off this planet.

Actually that isn't correct.

When you buy a PS3, you are NOT buying the console. You do not own it, sony does.

...When you buy a PS3 you ARE buying the console, you do own it. Just like other bits of computer/console hardware.