EFF Calls Sony's Lawsuit Against PS3 Hackers "Dangerous"

Andy Powell

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JDKJ said:
Talk about assuming the rest of us have no understanding of the situation. I was told in this very thread that, "if you paid attention, what they did is hack the hardware to allow their software to run. They didn't hack Sony code, they didn't steal anything. They broke a hardware lock on the software (in the form of an encryption chip). I don't think you understand what they did, you just hear "broke the protection" as if they are spoofing some software monitor like Punkbuster." As if I don't have the reading comprehension skills of a fifth-grader. Or the common sense of a cinder block. Is it possible to be any more insulting of my intelligence? I don't think so.
Did I mention theft of code in my reply? I don't believe I did.. Project much? What I was talking about was the running of hackers code. What's being threatened now (besides piracy which I never even touched on), is the OTHER services that those of us who are using the platform for its intended purpose are being screwwed over for. The Trophies system is under attack now thanks to all that user-made code that you're defending. What's next, the rest of the PSN?

When all this kind of crap happens, who gets CONSTANTLY SCREWWED in the end? The users who actually remain legitimate. The PSP platform is a glowwing example. Not only did we get screwwed out of advanced PSN features, but we also got a highly enemic line of software support because most developers figured there was no money to be made on the platform. Regardless of most people's views on the PSP platform, it's hard to argue against the idea that the software lineup would have been better had the hacking not taken place.
 

JDKJ

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Andy Powell said:
JDKJ said:
Talk about assuming the rest of us have no understanding of the situation. I was told in this very thread that, "if you paid attention, what they did is hack the hardware to allow their software to run. They didn't hack Sony code, they didn't steal anything. They broke a hardware lock on the software (in the form of an encryption chip). I don't think you understand what they did, you just hear "broke the protection" as if they are spoofing some software monitor like Punkbuster." As if I don't have the reading comprehension skills of a fifth-grader. Or the common sense of a cinder block. Is it possible to be any more insulting of my intelligence? I don't think so.
Did I mention theft of code in my reply? I don't believe I did.. Project much? What I was talking about was the running of hackers code. What's being threatened now (besides piracy which I never even touched on), is the OTHER services that those of us who are using the platform for its intended purpose are being screwwed over for. The Trophies system is under attack now thanks to all that user-made code that you're defending. What's next, the rest of the PSN?

When all this kind of crap happens, who gets CONSTANTLY SCREWWED in the end? The users who actually remain legitimate. The PSP platform is a glowwing example. Not only did we get screwwed out of advanced PSN features, but we also got a highly enemic line of software support because most developers figured there was no money to be made on the platform. Regardless of most people's views on the PSP platform, it's hard to argue against the idea that the software lineup would have been better had the hacking not taken place.
You may have misread my post (although, truth be told, I do oftentimes project). Now that I re-read it, it isn't clear that I was actually agreeing with your position on assumption of misunderstanding. I didn't say the "theft of code" thing. That and all the other "blah, blah, blah" in my quotation marks was said to me by another poster to this thread and evidences, I believe, an assumption that I'm not bright enough to understand the situation. Which may well be a correct assumption. But it is an assumption, nevertheless.
 

JDKJ

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DTWolfwood said:
JDKJ said:
I'm not so sure that the "hardware" part makes a difference. According to Sony, "[y]ou may not . . . use any unauthorized, illegal, counterfeit, or modified hardware or software in connection with the System Software, including use of tools to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism for the PS3? system . . . ."

The way I read it, if you use any unauthorized hardware in connection with Sony's software (especially if the use is intended to bypass an access control mechanism), then you're on Sony's hook.
They can expressly forbid the use of outside hardware in conjunction with their own, but it isn't illegal to do so by law if you own the equipment.

Its comparable to the PS2 mod chip. A modded PS2 isn't illegal to have or own, the content you use for it is.

another example, to use the spoon and lighter together isn't illegal, to freebase the crack thats on it is. XD
Or, to use another example, all dogs have four legs and a cat has four legs therefore a cat is a dog. : P
 

Andy Powell

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JDKJ said:
You may have misread my post (although, truth be told, I do oftentimes project). Now that I re-read it, it isn't clear that I was actually agreeing with your position on assumption of misunderstanding. I didn't say the "theft of code" thing. That and all the other "blah, blah, blah" in my quotation marks was said to me by another poster to this thread and evidences, I believe, an assumption that I'm not bright enough to understand the situation. Which may well be a correct assumption. But it is an assumption, nevertheless.
Oh.. You're right, I think I may have misread your reply.. My apologies.. However, you gotta admit that it was a bit on the convoluted side with all those quotes from other posts. ^_~

The way things appear to me, it's these people screaming about a consumers rights to run unauthorized code on their consoles, when it's this code that is threatening the features that legitimate purpose users are appreciating. It seems pretty clear that the ones who are getting their consumers rights violated, are the legitimate purpose users.

If you ask me, the legitimate purpose users should be filing a class action lawsuit against those who are responsible for circumventing the securities and allowing this unauthorized code to be run on the platform. Who's rights take precedent here?
 

Charley

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Garak73 said:
Charley said:
A friend of mine made an interesting point, saying this PS3 case is perfectly acceptable is very similar to saying it's okay to take a key and cut it to open the door to someone else's house.

It's not what it was made to do, but you own the key so you can tinker with it however you like - even if the result could very easily lead to illegal activity. You wouldn't think that was acceptable, so how is this any better?
Breaking into a house that is not your own is not comparable to breaking into a PS3 that you do own.

Besides, you can make a key to fit a lock you don't own. It's when you use it that you broke the law.
So by extension, it'd be okay for me to make a key to your house, then pass copies around saying "you -could- open this guy's house with this, but I'm not promoting that."?

Yes, it's a slightly silly example, but the ethics behind it are the same. GeoHot and co. know fine well what they've done opens the door wide for piracy, simply saying "oh we didn't mean for it to do that" doesn't cover it.
 

JohnPaul3rd

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You own the PS3, you can install whatever legal software you want. A PS3 is a computer, trying to state otherwise just shows how much you don't know.
 

Zannah

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SomethingAmazing said:
Haelium said:
So people shouldn't be allowed modify cars? Does that include mechanics? And so we should monitor what people do on the internet purely because they might be downloading stuff that they shouldn't?
Yes. But that brings up a really good idea, all mechanics must be certified to work on cars. And modification without certification is illegal.

Yes.

Piracy is a huge problem. And while we're at it, we can do other things with the monitoring. Like stopping crimes before they happen. That sort of thing.
So, I really don't mean any offense, but please stay a few miles away from any job that'd remotely put you in any position to decide that sort of thing. Mr. Orwell would probably immediately gnaw his way out of his coffin, could he read what you're writing here.

Ot: EFF is pretty much right. Let's hope the lawsuit is crushed like it should, and while we're at it, let's hope we can get past that whole "you only bought the privilege to use our stuff in ways we want to" bullcrap.
 

Zom-B

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Andy Powell said:
OPEN YOUR EYES! The PSN trophy system is under FULL attack! It's all over the web. (example) http://gamerant.com/ps3-trophy-hack-tao-61254/

These homebrewwers that you're defending are devaluing one feature at a time for everyone else who enjoys the system. So what's next?.. NO trophy system for everyone? Is that what you want? Because that's exactly what you're getting. That's exactly what everyone is getting weather we want it or not. I can't think of a better example of what's not fair to consumers, than what's happenning right now.
explain to me how some person who uses this alleged hack to get %100 on all the trophies for his/her games in any way affects you? or for that matter affects anything? trophies are absolutely MEANINGLESS. they don't do anything but give a person some sort of self satisfaction. there's no tangible rewards at all, so again i ask, what difference does it make to you if someone has legitimately gotten %100 trophies or not?
 

The Rockerfly

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Deshin said:
*deep breath*

Would people stop with pulling the big book of metaphors out of their backsides and stop dancing around the issue. Sod cars and prisons and weirdos, what we have here is an electronic console and it has its own rules and situations.

When you buy the console it is yours, legally, Sony can't come round to your house and decide to take it back. No matter how many EULA amendments they make will make it true and not a damn single court in the civilised world would uphold a Sony rep coming to comandeer your personal possessions. Sony could put in the EULA that every time you turn the console on you have to punch yourself in the groin but that doesn't make it legally binding. Now we've gotten that out of the way let's move onto the proper stuff.

The PS3 is a console, a piece of electrical hardware. As an electronics item the owner (ie, you, not Sony) can do what you want with it. You can open it, take a hammer to it, take a soldering iron to it, whatever you want. (The only downside is you'd void the warranty) If you make your electronic device capable of doing something it's not supposed to, it's STILL OK. Back in olden days you had to modchip consoles to get em to pirate, that was perfectly legal. The actual piracy bit on the other hand is the not so legal part and that's where the trouble comes in. But *modifying* your electronic hardware to do something illegal is perfectly legal as long as you don't do the illegal part.

Sony are just angry about losing their prized "most secure console" title and having the PS3 end up with the security functions of a toaster. As such they're releasing the lawyers in any which way direction they think will save face the most. Honestly though they did have it coming, a BIG selling point of the PS3 over the competition was OpenOS and that influenced a lot of sales. Now for Sony to realise they're not the sleepy sheepdog of the console generation anymore and have a sizable number of units sold and can turn around and whip out some of the PS3 goodies is just bad business and I hope they feel the unforgiving wrath of the consumer.

We are the consumers, Sony serves us, not the other way around.

Thank you, someone with some actual sense in this thread. I can't believe the amount of people who want their rights taken away to defend a massive corporation and become whipping boys of a company who only care about you for your money. Every single one of you with terrible analogies and stupid reasons why users shouldn't be allowed to hack their console.

The only reason they care about this issue is because it could lose them a small bit of money, they don't care about you or you defending them on an internet forum.
 

Andy Powell

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Zom-B said:
explain to me how some person who uses this alleged hack to get %100 on all the trophies for his/her games in any way affects you? or for that matter affects anything? trophies are absolutely MEANINGLESS. they don't do anything but give a person some sort of self satisfaction. there's no tangible rewards at all, so again i ask, what difference does it make to you if someone has legitimately gotten %100 trophies or not?
The trophies system is NOT meaningless to people who hold value to it. Obviously, you don't but your opinion doesn't make fact. Many people like myself value the trophies system as a rewards system for doing things in games that we normally wouldn't do, or for going that extra mile. It also provides replay value for titles that would've normally been dropped after the first play through. People who find value in the trophies and achievements systems on consoles are in the majority, and I'm afraid you're outnumbered on that one.

A comprimized trophy system would put the feature in jeopardy of being shut down completely. Game devs wouldn't bat an eye at droping support of the feature if it meant that any effort put towards it was completely blitzed the minute the game hit launch day.
 

Zom-B

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Andy Powell said:
The trophies system is NOT meaningless to people who hold value to it. Obviously, you don't but your opinion doesn't make fact. Many people like myself value the trophies system as a rewards system for doing things in games that we normally wouldn't do, or for going that extra mile. It also provides replay value for titles that would've normally been dropped after the first play through. People who find value in the trophies and achievements systems on consoles are in the majority, and I'm afraid you're outnumbered on that one.

A comprimized trophy system would put the feature in jeopardy of being shut down completely. Game devs wouldn't bat an eye at droping support of the feature if it meant that any effort put towards it was completely blitzed the minute the game hit launch day.
fair enough. the trophy system has value to you. however, you haven't explained how another player's trophies, real or legitimate, affect your value of them or their worth to you. if trophies of players on your friends list weren't visible, would they still hold the same value? if it's just a personal scorecard, other players shouldn't matter.

also, i highly doubt that sony or microsoft would take out achievements or trophies simply because people were artificially inflating their scores. that would be tantamount to punishing legitimate players for the actions of cheaters, and i think in most people's books that would be an asinine response. it wouldn't stop cheaters cheating (they'd just find something new to cheat at) and it would alienate legitimate users.

and i would also like to submit that trophies are meaningless. when you receive a trophy for doing something that you would do anyways, how can it have worth? i've played a number of games where i've essentially "earned" trophies for "completing level 1". silly trophies like that dilute the whole structure. now, if trophies were only awarded for things that a player really had to go out of their way to do, then at least you have bragging rights. but if every single person has the same trophies no matter how they play the game, they become essentially worthless.
 

airrazor7

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I'm pretty sure that someone has already posted this and everyone is already thinking this but I feel the need to say it. "Sony's quest for control will be their undoing."