Elder Scrolls Oblivion Damage Calculations

[Arnoxthe1]

I looked at how Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim all calculate melee damage and it seems like Oblivion is too biased in favor of quality of weapons and magic. Which is a shame because with some slight tweaking, it could be really good.

I both calculated exact damages on paper and then also put it into practice as well by modifying both my Strength attribute and Blade skill to 100. (Small disclaimer. I'm using Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, so everything has been deleveled.) I then tested out the damage of my swings with a stock standard Steel Longsword, making sure my Fatigue was at maximum. What resulted was high damage, yes, but with both my skill and attribute at 100, the results were still very underwhelming. Optimally, I should be destroying NPCs in one or two hits, but it still took 5 hits or so without power attacks to finally bring them down. This is simply not right.

And it's weird too because both Morrowind and Skyrim do not have this problem at all. I don't know why they decided to nerf melee damage so deeply in Oblivion. Now, you could say, "Well that's how it's supposed to be if you're just using a crappy steel longsword. By the time you get to those numbers in-game, you should have gotten at least an ebony weapon." I don't agree with this at all though. If I stab you with my insane strength, whether it's with a rusty butcher knife or a steel sword that's been polished to a shine, the damage should be the same and it should be utterly fatal. Morrowind and Skyrim understand this but Oblivion does not.

 

[Bad Jim]

If I stab you with my insane strength, whether it's with a rusty butcher knife or a steel sword that's been polished to a shine, the damage should be the same and it should be utterly fatal. Morrowind and Skyrim understand this but Oblivion does not.

Not necessarily. If I'm wearing a gambeson, you are unlikely to penetrate it with a rusty butcher knife, you might bruise me but not much more. With a really sharp longsword, you might be able to push the point through.

Also, Oblivion doesn't have chance to hit calculations, because people didn't like swinging at monsters and not hitting them in Morrowind. If we were to make it realistic, you might do a lot of damage with a rusty butcher knife if you actually hit me, but if I have a longsword then I will be much more successful at cutting you than you will at cutting me. If that can't be represented through hit percentages, it is better to reflect it in damage than not reflect it at all.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Not necessarily. If I'm wearing a gambeson, you are unlikely to penetrate it with a rusty butcher knife, you might bruise me but not much more. With a really sharp longsword, you might be able to push the point through.

Also, Oblivion doesn't have chance to hit calculations, because people didn't like swinging at monsters and not hitting them in Morrowind. If we were to make it realistic, you might do a lot of damage with a rusty butcher knife if you actually hit me, but if I have a longsword then I will be much more successful at cutting you than you will at cutting me. If that can't be represented through hit percentages, it is better to reflect it in damage than not reflect it at all.

Ah, but that's the key here. I'm talking about just unarmored. Now, if the opponent is wearing armor, yeah. That's different of course. If it's a random monk in robes though, I'm sorry, but I don't think it's gonna even stop a rusty butcher knife. And ESPECIALLY not when my Strength is at 100.

 

[Saelune]

Oblivion is vastly inferior to both Morrowind and Skyrim. It made alot of bad choices from Morrowind, and Skyrim improved on Oblivion in virtually every way.

 

[Bad Jim]

Ah, but that's the key here. I'm talking about just unarmored. Now, if the opponent is wearing armor, yeah. That's different of course. If it's a random monk in robes though, I'm sorry, but I don't think it's gonna even stop a rusty butcher knife. And ESPECIALLY not when my Strength is at 100.

If it's a direct, unblocked stab right to his heart, yes that's going to kill, but it's difficult to pull off such a move against anyone because they will try to block/parry/dodge you. It's not reasonable that you should be able to do such a move and always hit, as you do in Oblivion. A more plausible move to always hit with is a slash, which is highly effective with a 'curved sword' but much less effective with a butcher knife, even if your strength is 100.

 

[Saelune]

Not necessarily. If I'm wearing a gambeson, you are unlikely to penetrate it with a rusty butcher knife, you might bruise me but not much more. With a really sharp longsword, you might be able to push the point through.

Also, Oblivion doesn't have chance to hit calculations, because people didn't like swinging at monsters and not hitting them in Morrowind. If we were to make it realistic, you might do a lot of damage with a rusty butcher knife if you actually hit me, but if I have a longsword then I will be much more successful at cutting you than you will at cutting me. If that can't be represented through hit percentages, it is better to reflect it in damage than not reflect it at all.

Ah, but that's the key here. I'm talking about just unarmored. Now, if the opponent is wearing armor, yeah. That's different of course. If it's a random monk in robes though, I'm sorry, but I don't think it's gonna even stop a rusty butcher knife. And ESPECIALLY not when my Strength is at 100.

Heres the thing, its a fantasy video game. Hell, Bethesda havent even taken Fallout's limb damage feature for TES yet. A headshot vs a body shot is irrelevant in TES.

If your problem is a lack of realism, well, you have bigger problems than weapon material damage.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Oblivion is vastly inferior to both Morrowind and Skyrim. It made alot of bad choices from Morrowind, and Skyrim improved on Oblivion in virtually every way.

Well, maybe not EVERY way, but in a ton of ways, absolutely.

If it's a direct, unblocked stab right to his heart, yes that's going to kill, but it's difficult to pull off such a move against anyone because they will try to block/parry/dodge you. It's not reasonable that you should be able to do such a move and always hit, as you do in Oblivion. A more plausible move to always hit with is a slash, which is highly effective with a 'curved sword' but much less effective with a butcher knife, even if your strength is 100.

If they executed a successful block/parry/dodge, then why are they still getting damaged? The answer is that they didn't do a successful block/parry/dodge and are getting hit. And at 100 strength, trying to block that swing is literally like trying to block/parry a car.

If your problem is a lack of realism, well, you have bigger problems than weapon material damage.

The Elder Scrolls series has ALWAYS been about making "real-time" RPGs. Or at least as real-time as they can make them. This means that as little as possible is decided by dice-rolls and the combat is not turn-based. Total realism may not be able to be achieved but there's still a lot of really easy to implement things that we can still do to make the system work even better than it has. I'm not proposing anything ground-breaking at all here.

The point of a fantasy sandbox obviously is to ask, "Given these fantastical elements and mechanics, and given this setting to play around in, what can be done to give the player more freedom in how they approach these situations? How can we enhance the fantasy simulation to be more accurate yet rewarding?" And this is the spirit of the problem that I'm bringing up. This fundamental melee damage calculation is flawed, leading to combat that isn't as intense or exciting as it could be. As it should be.

 

[Saelune]

Oblivion is vastly inferior to both Morrowind and Skyrim. It made alot of bad choices from Morrowind, and Skyrim improved on Oblivion in virtually every way.

Well, maybe not EVERY way, but in a ton of ways, absolutely.

If it's a direct, unblocked stab right to his heart, yes that's going to kill, but it's difficult to pull off such a move against anyone because they will try to block/parry/dodge you. It's not reasonable that you should be able to do such a move and always hit, as you do in Oblivion. A more plausible move to always hit with is a slash, which is highly effective with a 'curved sword' but much less effective with a butcher knife, even if your strength is 100.

If they executed a successful block/parry/dodge, then why are they still getting damaged? The answer is that they didn't do a successful block/parry/dodge and are getting hit. And at 100 strength, trying to block that swing is literally like trying to block/parry a car.

If your problem is a lack of realism, well, you have bigger problems than weapon material damage.

The Elder Scrolls series has ALWAYS been about making "real-time" RPGs. Or at least as real-time as they can make them. This means that as little as possible is decided by dice-rolls and the combat is not turn-based. Total realism may not be able to be achieved but there's still a lot of really easy to implement things that we can still do to make the system work even better than it has. I'm not proposing anything ground-breaking at all here.

The point of a fantasy sandbox obviously is to ask, "Given these fantastical elements and mechanics, and given this setting to play around in, what can be done to give the player more freedom in how they approach these situations? How can we enhance the fantasy simulation to be more accurate yet rewarding?" And this is the spirit of the problem that I'm bringing up. This fundamental melee damage calculation is flawed, leading to combat that isn't as intense or exciting as it could be. As it should be.

Not disagreeing, just saying that before we have the argument you're having, we have a bunch of other things to address first. Such as, "Why havent they taken Fallout's limb damage feature for TES?" I mean, not VATS, but I want to cripple enemy bandit's arms, and smash their heads off.

Or Quest protection. Now THATS an immersion breaker big time, especially for those who want to be more evil yet are stuck trying to murder an immortal being cause they have some errands to run.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Not disagreeing, just saying that before we have the argument you're having, we have a bunch of other things to address first. Such as, "Why havent they taken Fallout's limb damage feature for TES?" I mean, not VATS, but I want to cripple enemy bandit's arms, and smash their heads off.

Or Quest protection. Now THATS an immersion breaker big time, especially for those who want to be more evil yet are stuck trying to murder an immortal being cause they have some errands to run.

Well, the thing with locational damage in a fantasy RPG is that actually trying to hit a key place would be kinda hard without a system like VATS. Now, what you COULD do is map each possible direction of a swing to a specific body part on the enemy. So a right-to-left slash would always hit an opponent's left arm for example, assuming it isn't blocked or parried or etc.

About quest protection though, on PC there's a really easy way to turn it off, but yeah, on consoles, I think you might be screwed even with console mods.

 

[Saelune]

Not disagreeing, just saying that before we have the argument you're having, we have a bunch of other things to address first. Such as, "Why havent they taken Fallout's limb damage feature for TES?" I mean, not VATS, but I want to cripple enemy bandit's arms, and smash their heads off.

Or Quest protection. Now THATS an immersion breaker big time, especially for those who want to be more evil yet are stuck trying to murder an immortal being cause they have some errands to run.

Well, the thing with locational damage in a fantasy RPG is that actually trying to hit a key place would be kinda hard without a system like VATS. Now, what you COULD do is map each possible direction of a swing to a specific body part on the enemy. So a right-to-left slash would always hit an opponent's left arm for example, assuming it isn't blocked or parried or etc.

About quest protection though, on PC there's a really easy way to turn it off, but yeah, on consoles, I think you might be screwed even with console mods.

If you have to cheat to do it, it doesnt count. Mods dont count, and console commands dont count.

Dont need vats. Just need directional swinging, Morrowind had that, and just that maybe sometimes I cripple an enemy's arm and they drop their weapon or something cause of it. And if I am sneaking with a bow, where I hit should matter more.

Could also give weapons more variety by maybe some weapons being more or less prone to crippling enemies in certain ways. Would be nice if the weapon you use was more than just preference for appearance.

 

[Bad Jim]

If it's a direct, unblocked stab right to his heart, yes that's going to kill, but it's difficult to pull off such a move against anyone because they will try to block/parry/dodge you. It's not reasonable that you should be able to do such a move and always hit, as you do in Oblivion. A more plausible move to always hit with is a slash, which is highly effective with a 'curved sword' but much less effective with a butcher knife, even if your strength is 100.

If they executed a successful block/parry/dodge, then why are they still getting damaged? The answer is that they didn't do a successful block/parry/dodge and are getting hit. And at 100 strength, trying to block that swing is literally like trying to block/parry a car.

It's still a swing though, and you are drawing a 10 inch blade across your opponent that could have been a 40 inch blade. However deep your rusty butchers knife cuts, you could have cut 4 times deeper with the longsword. Even if your 100 strength lets you cut a planet into two half planets, the longsword will let you bisect larger planets than the butcher knife.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

It's still a swing though, and you are drawing a 10 inch blade across your opponent that could have been a 40 inch blade. However deep your rusty butchers knife cuts, you could have cut 4 times deeper with the longsword. Even if your 100 strength lets you cut a planet into two half planets, the longsword will let you bisect larger planets than the butcher knife.

But regardless, the butcher knife should still have done a ton of damage.

 

[demoman_chaos]

It's still a swing though, and you are drawing a 10 inch blade across your opponent that could have been a 40 inch blade. However deep your rusty butchers knife cuts, you could have cut 4 times deeper with the longsword. Even if your 100 strength lets you cut a planet into two half planets, the longsword will let you bisect larger planets than the butcher knife.

That is not how cutting works mate. Only a small portion of the blade actually meets the target, and the damage depends on a very wide variety of factors. The blade's balance, sharpness, edge geometry, speed of the cut, edge alignment, and much more. Swords have more mass and speed at the point of contact (If the hands are travelling at the same speed the length means the bit you are using to cut with, which is the last 3rd of the blade ideally, is travelling faster due to the blade being longer) which results in more damage. Some weapons have curved edges (forward or rearward curves) which can change the behavior of the blade on impact (rearward curves tend to draw more, leading to longer wounds but also makes the blade less effective against armor).

Furthermore, even if you press the blade against a soft target and draw the thing across odds are the sword won't do all that much more damage than a butcher knife of similar sharpness due to leverage (less leverage nearer to the tip you get, which is why you don't try to block an incoming attack with the tip of your sword). While the length would lead to a larger wound, it certainly won't be anywhere near 4 times that of a blade 1/4 of the sword's size.

As far as damage from a strongman, both would suck to be hit with but depending on the knife/sword in question the knife might suck more. A strike from a smallsword is going to be "ineffective" to say the least while a cut from a tulwar will be quite unpleasant to say the least. A beefy butcher knife might cleave better than some swords, but not nearly as much as others. There is a LOT of variation in swords even of the same type, and "longsword" is a very generic term encompassing a very large swath of weapons.

 

[TheFinish]

I looked at how Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim all calculate melee damage and it seems like Oblivion is too biased in favor of quality of weapons and magic. Which is a shame because with some slight tweaking, it could be really good.

I both calculated exact damages on paper and then also put it into practice as well by modifying both my Strength attribute and Blade skill to 100. (Small disclaimer. I'm using Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, so everything has been deleveled.) I then tested out the damage of my swings with a stock standard Steel Longsword, making sure my Fatigue was at maximum. What resulted was high damage, yes, but with both my skill and attribute at 100, the results were still very underwhelming. Optimally, I should be destroying NPCs in one or two hits, but it still took 5 hits or so without power attacks to finally bring them down. This is simply not right.

And it's weird too because both Morrowind and Skyrim do not have this problem at all. I don't know why they decided to nerf melee damage so deeply in Oblivion. Now, you could say, "Well that's how it's supposed to be if you're just using a crappy steel longsword. By the time you get to those numbers in-game, you should have gotten at least an ebony weapon." I don't agree with this at all though. If I stab you with my insane strength, whether it's with a rusty butcher knife or a steel sword that's been polished to a shine, the damage should be the same and it should be utterly fatal. Morrowind and Skyrim understand this but Oblivion does not.

This is because the way Oblivion calculates damage is absolutely, hilariously bad.

The difference between a starting character (55 Str, 30 Blade, assuming Nord Warrior) is great, but the actual numbers tell a different story:

The 100/100 dude does: Base Weapon Damage x 1.0625

While the starting dude does: Base Weapon Damage x 0.333125

What you have here is that at maximum Str/Blade, you're doing 6% more damage than base damage. In Skyrim, with 100 One-Handed and 5 Armsman, you're doing 300%. In Morrowind, at 100 Str, you're dealing 150% weapon damage (the skill only helps your to-hit, not your damage)

When you realise the Base Damage of the weapons is basically the same across all three games, there's your answer.

 

[Bad Jim]

But regardless, the butcher knife should still have done a ton of damage.

The rusty butcher knife should have shattered the first time it hit steel if your strength was 100.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

The rusty butcher knife should have shattered the first time it hit steel if your strength was 100.

That's an argument that the blade should shatter. Not that it shouldn't do a ton of damage. Which would make most weapons useless at 100 Strength I might add.

 

[Bad Jim]

The rusty butcher knife should have shattered the first time it hit steel if your strength was 100.

That's an argument that the blade should shatter. Not that it shouldn't do a ton of damage. Which would make most weapons useless at 100 Strength I might add.

Not so. A butcher's knife is a tool, and is made hard so it can hold an edge. This hardness makes it brittle, and quite likely to break in combat. Actual swords are less hard, because it is not acceptable for a weapon to break in combat.

Also, what part of your opponents body are you hitting? Are you swinging at air, making your opponent flinch and insisting he should be dead? If you slash someones arm, even at 100 strength, the best you can expect is to sever his arm. He won't just fall over and die.

And realistically, people can actually get shot and keep fighting for a minute or so before blood loss takes its toll. It's even possible if they are shot in the torso. So no, having 100 STR is no guarantee that you can kill anyone in one hit.