Endor: Anatomy of a Tribal Insurgency

Robert Rath

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Endor: Anatomy of a Tribal Insurgency

Ewoks are the Viet Cong of Star Wars.

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Falseprophet

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Beautiful, Rob, beautiful. Anyone who still doubts the ability of the small and weak to fight back against the strong should also read the classic Dragon magazine editorial, Tucker's Kobolds [http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/].
 

Thaluikhain

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Rubbish. Ewoks weren't insurgents. Guerillas =/= insurgents.

The ewoks were not part of the empire, there was not a bunch of Imperial ewoks for them to hide amongst.

Anyone who is an ewok is the enemy. You don't have to worry about telling civilians apart from hostiles, because you want to kill them all.

Now, if there was a large population the empire wanted onside for the insurgent ewoks to hide amongst, fine. If they wanted to fight a guerilla war, fine.

Only they went and fought an open battle against the Imperial forces, and should have gotten massacred, because that's exactly what someone in their position does not do.

(For that matter, none of them had captured Imperial weapons)
 

woundwart

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Comparing the Ewoks to Viet Cong is nonsense. The ewoks had stick and stones the empire had modern weapons. The battle of Endor should have looked like The Battle of Rorke's Drift.
 

Robert Rath

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The problem isn't the concept, the problem is that they had no means of even hurting the storm troopers besides their traps.
Last time I checked the Viet Cong had guns, and plastic armor doesn't stop a bullet.
thaluikhain said:
Rubbish. Ewoks weren't insurgents. Guerillas =/= insurgents.

The ewoks were not part of the empire, there was not a bunch of Imperial ewoks for them to hide amongst.

Anyone who is an ewok is the enemy. You don't have to worry about telling civilians apart from hostiles, because you want to kill them all.

Now, if there was a large population the empire wanted onside for the insurgent ewoks to hide amongst, fine. If they wanted to fight a guerilla war, fine.

Only they went and fought an open battle against the Imperial forces, and should have gotten massacred, because that's exactly what someone in their position does not do.

(For that matter, none of them had captured Imperial weapons)
Oh they did, one got a blaster and there were the two were piloting the AT-ST with Chewie
 

Thaluikhain

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DVS BSTrD said:
(For that matter, none of them had captured Imperial weapons)
Oh they did, one got a blaster and there were the two were piloting the AT-ST with Chewie[/quote]

True, I meant before the battle. They rocked up to fight with pointed sticks and several hundred tonnes of log.
 

Robert Rath

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thaluikhain said:
(For that matter, none of them had captured Imperial weapons)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sJgAkLZ70VU/UN-lUYJrZ7I/AAAAAAAAIbw/STRxZHp84mE/s1600/theknightshift-ewokwithagunmotivationalposter.jpg
 

Robert Rath

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Who ever came up with primitive fluffy Ewoks defeating Imperial troopers with the latest in weaponry
should have his ass cooked and served to him on a plate. I had the same reaction to them
as I had with Jar Jar Binks. I wanted to make dents in the wall with my head.
 

Robert Rath

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woundwart said:
Comparing the Ewoks to Viet Cong is nonsense. The ewoks had stick and stones the empire had modern weapons. The battle of Endor should have looked like The Battle of Rorke's Drift.
That comparison actually did come to mind, but not exactly in the way you've suggested. Rourke's Drift only happened because the Zulus massacred a much larger British force at the Battle of Isandlwana, where the numerically superior force of Zulus armed with spears and cowhide shields (and some old muskets and rifles they weren't trained to use) attacked and destroyed an entire British column.

Perhaps not surprisingly, British popular history is more interested in remembering the 150 soldiers that fought at Rourke's Drift and won, rather than the 1,300 who were wiped out the previous day.

But still, Lucas said they were VC so I went that direction.
 

Spygon

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Not sure how the comparison with the American revolution is comparable as the ewoks weren't being supplied by an enemy that was similar strength to the empire who were also fighting them at the same time.
 

RJ Dalton

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I was never super bothered by the ewoks. I mean, I would have liked it better if Lucas had gone with his original idea and they were wookies, but that disappointment never stopped me from enjoying Return of the Jedi.
 

itsthesheppy

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"The AK-47 is the great equalizer." ~The Jackal, Far Cry 2

The viet cong had AK-47s. The ewoks didn't have anything at all like the power that the AK brings to the battlefield. It wasn't even close. Someone said that the battle should have looked like Rorke's Drift. I think it should have looked like that scene in Avatar when the mean ol' humans blow the fuck out of the big tree. Just utter domination.
 
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Spygon said:
Not sure how the comparison with the American revolution is comparable as the ewoks weren't being supplied by an enemy that was similar strength to the empire who were also fighting them at the same time.
Yeah, really the rebel commandos themselves were more comparable to the American revolutionaries, same basic capability and equipment but without the numbers, regular vs. irregular forces.

In the Isandlwana example, the difference in equipment and capabilty wasn't that great, 15000+ guys with spears vs under 2000 guys with single shot breech loading rifles without magazines and no armour...yeah, not that surprising the Zulus won that one. The Reason Rorke's drift is remembered is because it's so fucking amazing.

Really, the only thing that can explain the ewok thing is that the entire stormtrooper legion were a bunch of congenital retards who couldn't hit a barn door at 20 paces. *watches the Star Wars films* ...ah...
 

Yoshisummons

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The best analogy for Vietnam was that family guy clip where is it, oh here it is.
The U.S. as Mike Tyson and Carol Channing as the Viet Cong
The Viet Cong lost the Tet offensive and nearly every upfront battle in every traditional sense(kill/death ratios, maintaining ground, capturing points of interest like say a capital city), but were political victories in demoralizing the American public to continue the war.

No where in the fight with Ewoks demoralized or whittle down the stormtroopers. We also know that if they were a tangible threat to the shield garrison(IE: actually fighting beforehand) the Imperials wouldn't have scouting parties numbering a grand total of two.

Also, if they were so scared of the locals why are the perimeter guards so far away from home?(We know they were a great deal of time away from the generator due to the lengthy chase scene even with the super speedy bikes)
 

Thaluikhain

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Zykon TheLich said:
Yeah, really the republic commandos themselves were more comparable to the American revolutionaries, same basic capability and equipment but without the numbers, regular vs. irregular forces.
Also, they have American accents, and they are fighting British people.

Zykon TheLich said:
In the Isandlwana example, the difference in equipment and capabilty wasn't that great, 15000+ guys with spears vs under 2000 guys with single shot breech loading rifles without magazines and no armour...yeah, not that surprising the Zulus won that one. The Reason Rorke's drift is remembered is because it's so fucking amazing.
Well, the British commander did get a number of things seriously wrong. The British could have won that one, and should have done better than they did, but they were up against a serious threat.
 

Albino Boo

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The two examples given the article are misleading. Both the Viet Cong and the revolting Americans were being supplied by a rival superpower. In the case of the revolting Americans the French even provide combat troops and in the later stages of the war the Americas became one theater in a global war between Britain, France and Holland. A better analogy would be something like the Sicilian Vespers, the revolutions of 1848 or even the recent arab spring. All three represented a sudden boiling over anger into revolt against the powers that be. I think the fact that Lucas described them as VC has more to do with him being a baby boomer than any serious historical examination.

As an aside T E Lawrence's is the father of modern arab armies but his cousin Ord Wingate trained the Haganah, the forerunner of the IDF.




Robert Rath said:
Perhaps not surprisingly, British popular history is more interested in remembering the 150 soldiers that fought at Rourke's Drift and won, rather than the 1,300 who were wiped out the previous day.
You mean like American popular history is more interested in remembering the revolutionary war and forgets about the war of 1812. Who wants to remember that whole burning down of Washington, the virtual defection of New England and New York and the surrender of the federal army.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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I still say Lucas should have gone with his original idea of using Kashyyyk and Wookies.

Sure, they couldn't have gone with the 'sticks versus guns' routine but we could have gotten scenes of gore and mayhem as Wookie guerillas ripped the arms off stormtroopers and beat them to death with the soggy ends, tore helmeted heads off, used stolen weapons, tore off someone's leg and used it to knock several stormtroopers off something really high... I mean, the capacity for carnage would have been massively entertaining. Who wouldn't want to see a Wookie strangle a scouttrooper to death with their own entrails? Who wouldn't want to see a speederbike thrown at the viewport of an AT-ST and stove it in? What sort of person doesn't want to see a wookie covered in scorched marks from blaster fire, oozing blood, beat a stormtrooper to death barehanded, each blow cracking and crushing armour?

Yeah, what I'm saying is if there's ever a 'gritty reboot' of the original trilogy, you know who to call.
 
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thaluikhain said:
Well, the British commander did get a number of things seriously wrong. The British could have won that one, and should have done better than they did, but they were up against a serious threat.
It was certainly possible, they fucked up, but as you said, it was going to be a proper fight whatever happened, it's not ZOMFG how on earth did the British lose that.

My main point though, was that the difference between the British and the Zulus was a hell of a lot smaller than then Ewoks and the Stormtroopers. OP's point about the Stormtroopers pairing off into ones and twos [ed.2s and 3s] and running off into the jungle pretty much confirms my "congenital idiot" theory. Guarding an important objective against a numerically superior force? Split your guys up and have them leave the objective!